57139 réponses à ce sujet

[Rob Psyence]

xsdob wrote...

As a thought to the shepard was indoctrinated this whole time thought, how come he could kill that reaper on rannoch, or the two in the final battle? Shouldn't he have messed up his aim, or pressed the button too early or late, or something to show that he wasn't fully in control if he was at such an advanced stage of indoctrination to be hallucinating and hearing voices in his head?

They're trying to indoctorinate him, he isn't indoctorinated unless you give in to picking control or synthesis. Until they have control they can't influence what he does directly they can only cloud his judgement (making him see a kid  that is not there) and before the end it only happens the strongest in his dreams. At the end he gets blasted by a beam and is battle damaged so his will and consciousness is weakened

Modifié par Rob Psyence, 27 mars 2012 - 07:22 .

[n00bsauce2010]

greywardencommander wrote...

waldstr18 wrote...

i never said anyone was dump. im aware im not that bright either, so how could i call anyone else stupid? and for the desperate part. i guess im desperate for something that makes sense my own self. the only difference is, i dont have to hold on to a theory, which in the end makes no sense - to me at least.

but you keep talking about 'making sense' as thought the IRL stuff is the only important bit forgetting that it would all be a plot twist just like in a film so if it's true they release the rest of the game as though you had it all along and any DLC becomes a mission in your Journal if you're playing it from scratch so you don't do it too early it becomes available after you beat the 'current endings'

In terms of all three games, the foreshadowing the fact Harbinger and the Reapers seem obsessed with capturing Shepard in some capacity and control him the theory makes sense.

The ME lore on indoctrination then it would make sense the difference is having it happen in game and then go to the 'waking up on Earth' has no impact whatsoever so they're demonstrating indoctrination (i.e. the concept is based on what happens in real life with cults and conspiracies, just like this one)

a.k.a breaking the 4th wall.

The medium leaves it up to the viewer to figure out what it means. Just like Memento, inception, fight club or w/e.
Point is.. simply telling you that you're indoctrinated has no point. Because then all of those clues mean nothing. But.. if the clues weren't there.. and they told you were indoctrinated.. you'd believe it. Which means you have to be spoon fed in order to see what is going on.

[xsdob]

nyrocron wrote...

xsdob wrote...

As a thought to the shepard was indoctrinated this whole time thought, how come he could kill that reaper on rannoch, or the two in the final battle? Shouldn't he have messed up his aim, or pressed the button too early or late, or something to show that he wasn't fully in control if he was at such an advanced stage of indoctrination to be hallucinating and hearing voices in his head?

That form of indoctrination means no physical control over the subject's body by the reapers.

Shouldn't there have been something though, like an instance where he loses focus for a second or where he can't seem to line up the shot right.

These types of subtle manipulations seem to be what indoctrination would be best at, altering the person without them actually knowing it.

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

xsdob wrote...

As a thought to the shepard was indoctrinated this whole time thought, how come he could kill that reaper on rannoch, or the two in the final battle? Shouldn't he have messed up his aim, or pressed the button too early or late, or something to show that he wasn't fully in control if he was at such an advanced stage of indoctrination to be hallucinating and hearing voices in his head?

Indoctrination is not simply Indoctrinated or not Indoctrinated, its a gradual process decided by the time in proximity to a Reaper or Reaper artifact as well as the person affecteds own willpower. This has been mentioned countless times throughout the thread.

It is not instantenous mind control, buta gradual slope as the victim is pushed closer and closer to seeing everything in agreement with the Reapers point of view.

Shepard is simply able to resist longer than most and teh final sequence represents something along the lines of the last part of the battle in his mind as Harbinger realizing how close Shepard is getting to the Citadel puts everything in to break him utterly and ompletely truning him into a loyal servant of the Reapers and in that process utterly breaking the morale of the gathered forces of the other species.

[greywardencommander]

nyrocron wrote...

xsdob wrote...

As a thought to the shepard was indoctrinated this whole time thought, how come he could kill that reaper on rannoch, or the two in the final battle? Shouldn't he have messed up his aim, or pressed the button too early or late, or something to show that he wasn't fully in control if he was at such an advanced stage of indoctrination to be hallucinating and hearing voices in his head?

That form of indoctrination means no physical control over the subject's body by the reapers.

and that the concept of indoctrination (brain wash, sleeper agents etc) in real life and ME is negated once the person realises (emphasised by the freedom of Saren's suicide) thus there's a difference between 'in the process of being indoctrinated' (we're saying Shepard is at this point in at least ME3 if not before, i.e. Arrival and direct prolonged exposure while unconscious) and 'indoctrinated' until you're at the point of being fully controlled by the Reapers (though as in real life not fully control while a part of your mind can still resist and free will remains otherwise the Reapers would just constantly stare at everyone until you walk up to them for harvest.

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

xsdob wrote...

nyrocron wrote...

xsdob wrote...

As a thought to the shepard was indoctrinated this whole time thought, how come he could kill that reaper on rannoch, or the two in the final battle? Shouldn't he have messed up his aim, or pressed the button too early or late, or something to show that he wasn't fully in control if he was at such an advanced stage of indoctrination to be hallucinating and hearing voices in his head?

That form of indoctrination means no physical control over the subject's body by the reapers.

Shouldn't there have been something though, like an instance where he loses focus for a second or where he can't seem to line up the shot right.

These types of subtle manipulations seem to be what indoctrination would be best at, altering the person without them actually knowing it.

What Greywarden said.

Modifié par Raistlin Majare 1992, 27 mars 2012 - 07:24 .

[greywardencommander]

xsdob wrote...

nyrocron wrote...

xsdob wrote...

As a thought to the shepard was indoctrinated this whole time thought, how come he could kill that reaper on rannoch, or the two in the final battle? Shouldn't he have messed up his aim, or pressed the button too early or late, or something to show that he wasn't fully in control if he was at such an advanced stage of indoctrination to be hallucinating and hearing voices in his head?

That form of indoctrination means no physical control over the subject's body by the reapers.

Shouldn't there have been something though, like an instance where he loses focus for a second or where he can't seem to line up the shot right.

These types of subtle manipulations seem to be what indoctrination would be best at, altering the person without them actually knowing it.

the codex is enough 'subliminal messaging' 'suggestion' 'electro-magnetic waves' it's all in the mind, strong enough to resist (for whatever reason) or realise they're trying to manipulate and you can never be fully controlled.

[xsdob]

Rob Psyence wrote...

xsdob wrote...

As a thought to the shepard was indoctrinated this whole time thought, how come he could kill that reaper on rannoch, or the two in the final battle? Shouldn't he have messed up his aim, or pressed the button too early or late, or something to show that he wasn't fully in control if he was at such an advanced stage of indoctrination to be hallucinating and hearing voices in his head?

They're trying to indoctorinate him, he isn't indoctorinated unless you give in to picking control or synthesis. Until they have control they can't influence what he does directly they can only cloud his judgement (making him see a kid  that is not there) and before the end it only happens the strongest in his dreams. At the end he gets blasted by a beam and is battle damaged so his will consciousness is weakened

Than how come they didn't jsut make me unsure about whether he had lined up the shot correctly? Or made him halluciante that something had gone wrong with th targeting systems for the guns?

And what do you mean by trying? Once someone's indoctrinated to the point of hallucinations than your already fully indoctrianted. Seeing the kid and hearing voices and hums should pretty much mean shepard in now at least 80% under reaper control. The porcess never receds, the only peoeple who resit it are those not yet fully under it's effects such as benizia, and even she got back under it's influence after about a minute, so what's gonna happen to shepard when he wakes up and the reapers go right back to clawing at his brain.

The process is a steady force that doesn't recede, you don't have to be tricked through an illusion to acceptjing their control, it just happens after they mess with your neural pathways and synapsis long enough.

[greywardencommander]

n00bsauce2010 wrote...

greywardencommander wrote...

waldstr18 wrote...

i never said anyone was dump. im aware im not that bright either, so how could i call anyone else stupid? and for the desperate part. i guess im desperate for something that makes sense my own self. the only difference is, i dont have to hold on to a theory, which in the end makes no sense - to me at least.

but you keep talking about 'making sense' as thought the IRL stuff is the only important bit forgetting that it would all be a plot twist just like in a film so if it's true they release the rest of the game as though you had it all along and any DLC becomes a mission in your Journal if you're playing it from scratch so you don't do it too early it becomes available after you beat the 'current endings'

In terms of all three games, the foreshadowing the fact Harbinger and the Reapers seem obsessed with capturing Shepard in some capacity and control him the theory makes sense.

The ME lore on indoctrination then it would make sense the difference is having it happen in game and then go to the 'waking up on Earth' has no impact whatsoever so they're demonstrating indoctrination (i.e. the concept is based on what happens in real life with cults and conspiracies, just like this one)

a.k.a breaking the 4th wall.

The medium leaves it up to the viewer to figure out what it means. Just like Memento, inception, fight club or w/e.
Point is.. simply telling you that you're indoctrinated has no point. Because then all of those clues mean nothing. But.. if the clues weren't there.. and they told you were indoctrinated.. you'd believe it. Which means you have to be spoon fed in order to see what is going on.

memento and fight club two of the best films imo for exactly that reason and that's what IDT is saying the hints prior to those last 10 mins aren't important it's the sudden break (eerily similar to the dreams with the slow motion walking all to a single conclusion the child) that's the 'this is a trick' thus if you realise you're rewarded with the breathing scene (if high enough EMS) if not you're indoctrinated in the rest of the game (the 'clarification endings')

[spz123]

An argument I've heard from the anti Indoctrination Theory crowd is that noone can break indoctrination once it starts. Ignoring the assumption that its a fictional universe and theres no way any one can state that in certainty, after replaying the Samara side mission today, Samara states something to the effect of "Few people can break the Reapers grip". Few. As in it CAN be done.

[Hacedor1566]

Maybe this means nothing, but maybe this can help.
Everytime Shepard awakes from the horrible "dreams", he/she makes the same breathing "gasp" that he/she does at the end, when he/she awakes in ¿London? Exactly the same sound. I don't know how to make videos, but... It should be easy to check.

I really believe in IT. I don't like the idea of "hey, it was just a dream" but, negate indoctrination is negate logic.

[paxxton]

Hey, consider this: if someone says that he agrees with the Illusive Man and you insist that he is indoctrinated - isn't that a form of reverse indoctrination?

[greywardencommander]

xsdob wrote...

Rob Psyence wrote...

xsdob wrote...

As a thought to the shepard was indoctrinated this whole time thought, how come he could kill that reaper on rannoch, or the two in the final battle? Shouldn't he have messed up his aim, or pressed the button too early or late, or something to show that he wasn't fully in control if he was at such an advanced stage of indoctrination to be hallucinating and hearing voices in his head?

They're trying to indoctorinate him, he isn't indoctorinated unless you give in to picking control or synthesis. Until they have control they can't influence what he does directly they can only cloud his judgement (making him see a kid  that is not there) and before the end it only happens the strongest in his dreams. At the end he gets blasted by a beam and is battle damaged so his will consciousness is weakened

Than how come they didn't jsut make me unsure about whether he had lined up the shot correctly? Or made him halluciante that something had gone wrong with th targeting systems for the guns?

And what do you mean by trying? Once someone's indoctrinated to the point of hallucinations than your already fully indoctrianted. Seeing the kid and hearing voices and hums should pretty much mean shepard in now at least 80% under reaper control. The porcess never receds, the only peoeple who resit it are those not yet fully under it's effects such as benizia, and even she got back under it's influence after about a minute, so what's gonna happen to shepard when he wakes up and the reapers go right back to clawing at his brain.

The process is a steady force that doesn't recede, you don't have to be tricked through an illusion to acceptjing their control, it just happens after they mess with your neural pathways and synapsis long enough.

i've said it about 10 times that using basic knowledge of hypnosis and psychology IRL and the codex entry in game 'subliminal messaging, suggestion' that is false. Until someone realises what's happening (e.g. the audience) you don't know we see everything through Shepard's eyes (when we're controlling him) thus the only important bit is the seeming break from reality (or break from the rest of the game) in the ending sequence. Thus unless Shepard knows it at the time we don't see it (i.e. it's not shoved down our throats).
We become indoctrinated with him WE are Shepard - breaking the Fourth wall in the most extreme way you can think of.

Bioware has form with this (KOTOR) and framed Narrative on unreliable narrator a common plot device (DA2)

hence - IDT is not as crazy as it might seem even if the IRL part seems like 'whoah that's impossible' if human error can account for all the plot holes, and rushed bad ending it can sure account for them not expecting the backlash they got.

If you don't understand the point i'm making still just read my entire wall of text in my signature thread based on the last 10 mins alone (i.e. not the other 'evidence') and why I personally think it's supposed to be a trick at the end and why I think IDT is real (note if not intended that doesn't excuse the endings that's the point of IDT) and then read my ideas based on it for future DLC (right at the end) using nothing but reasoned argument and no circumstantial evidence. It's a lot of text but everyone who's read it says they enjoyed it.

I say I might be reading too much into it (I'm a psychologist I study human behaviour it's what I do) and giving them too much credit but it all makes sense based on our conditioning (in ME in this case if you've played all three games)

Thus ME3 can appeal to all fans whether you get all the hints or not, they're unimportant because you're not supposed to notice them. You're supposed to just think 'hang on a minute' in the ending scene because it's eerily like the dreams (boy at the end of a slow motion walk) and the logic makes no sense (in the sense it's not explained, again not important) the use of colour and person to represent each choice based on conditioning and the way the options are presented (the space magic compromise that just suddenly appears after hundreds of cycles and not having the option before) and the fact HE'S THE ENEMY HE SAYS HE CONTROLS THE REAPERS DON'T TRUST HIM

Modifié par greywardencommander, 27 mars 2012 - 07:41 .

[Yahmosa007]

[quote]Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

[quote]xsdob wrote...



Shepard is simply able to resist longer than most and teh final sequence represents something along the lines of the last part of the battle in his mind as Harbinger realizing how close Shepard is getting to the Citadel puts everything in to break him utterly and ompletely truning him into a loyal servant of the Reapers and in that process utterly breaking the morale of the gathered forces of the other species.

[/quote]

i can just imagine shepard waking up and killing everybody as a mutated husk while directing reapers to decimate and harvest

[greywardencommander]

paxxton wrote...

Hey, consider this: if someone says that he agrees with the Illusive Man and you insist that he is indoctrinated - isn't that a form of reverse indoctrination?

Exactly
Control = TIM
Synthesis = Saren
Destroy = Anderson/Shepard throughout the series

That's why you should realise it's a trick at the end and the 'why should I listen to you, you control the things i've been fighting for 120+ hours I'll take my chances in death to give the galaxy it's free will (works with endings as they are too but IDT fits better if it's meant to be a trick)

[Yahmosa007]

paxxton wrote...

Hey, consider this: if someone says that he agrees with the Illusive Man and you insist that he is indoctrinated - isn't that a form of reverse indoctrination?

i suppose that's why we have synthesis

[n00bsauce2010]

Look at grewardencommanders sig if you're confused about how the devs could combat the "only one ending is correct philosphy" when others simply know it can be done. Just because you don't pick destroy it doesn't mean it's game over. It just means they'll be a consequence for doing so later on.

[waldstr18]

the differnce between your theory and fight club, memento and inception is, that its clear to everyone that there is at least something going on. now in mass effect 3 its not clear for the average player, like me, to pick up on something like your theory. my point being, if it were indoctrination, they would have told us in some undisputable way.

now you could argue that they will tell us in the dlc, but they changed statements in between, as far as i can recall. first they said, no changing the ending, then they said, fans need more closure. if your theory is right and it was planned all along, then why would they change statements? instead they would have said: wait for it... wait for it ... BOOM!

and art or not, moneyz! oh, and the movie are a bad example for your point. just look at hollywood and the movies it craps out. if you are interested in that topic i can really recomment the big picture show by movie bob on the escapistmagazine.com. he seems to be smart by the way.

also, another reason why i dont like the indoctrination theory, i dont think the last part of the game would make a good indoctrination. dont get me wrong, i really liked it. i actually jumped up and said "f! yeah!" when my girl started limping. i even took a crap between the star child explanation and my actual choosing, cause i wanted to really think it through, thats how amazed i were with the choices given. (oh, that actually might also point in the direction of me not being that bright... yet i enjoyed sitting on the toilett contemplating) anyhow... but all that being indoctrination? i would expect more. so your indoctrination theory would actually destroy the ending for me.

just for the record: the end videos are crap and need to be changed.

i have to add something which i havent made clear enough. in menento, fight club, inception, when people leave the theater, then everyone knows something was up. thats what i meant. not through out the whole movie. could have been misunderstood. had to clarify, sorry.

Modifié par waldstr18, 27 mars 2012 - 07:42 .

[Rob Psyence]

xsdob wrote...

Rob Psyence wrote...

xsdob wrote...

As a thought to the shepard was indoctrinated this whole time thought, how come he could kill that reaper on rannoch, or the two in the final battle? Shouldn't he have messed up his aim, or pressed the button too early or late, or something to show that he wasn't fully in control if he was at such an advanced stage of indoctrination to be hallucinating and hearing voices in his head?

They're trying to indoctorinate him, he isn't indoctorinated unless you give in to picking control or synthesis. Until they have control they can't influence what he does directly they can only cloud his judgement (making him see a kid  that is not there) and before the end it only happens the strongest in his dreams. At the end he gets blasted by a beam and is battle damaged so his will consciousness is weakened

Than how come they didn't jsut make me unsure about whether he had lined up the shot correctly? Or made him halluciante that something had gone wrong with th targeting systems for the guns?

And what do you mean by trying? Once someone's indoctrinated to the point of hallucinations than your already fully indoctrianted. Seeing the kid and hearing voices and hums should pretty much mean shepard in now at least 80% under reaper control. The porcess never receds, the only peoeple who resit it are those not yet fully under it's effects such as benizia, and even she got back under it's influence after about a minute, so what's gonna happen to shepard when he wakes up and the reapers go right back to clawing at his brain.

The process is a steady force that doesn't recede, you don't have to be tricked through an illusion to acceptjing their control, it just happens after they mess with your neural pathways and synapsis long enough.

Just because you see isolated hallucinations it does not mean you are at the point where you can be controlled. Full indoctorination is this:

Paul Grayson in the books is injected with reaper nanites by Cerberus that slowly transform his insides into reaper tech but he fights it and manages to keep it at bay until Cerberus injects him with concentrated red sand, thus weakening his will to fight and his mental state and it makes it easier for the reapers to take a foothold in his mind. Eventually he has escaped and finds himself in his shuttle, he doesn't want to lead Cerberus to his daughter so he plots a course away from her...however, the reapers make him plot a course directly toward Gillian but in Grayson's mind he still thinks he is going away from her.

My point is, in order to be indoctorinated you have to give in. They can't just go "POOF! you are now under my control!" At some point the victim has to give into the reapers or be convinced by them.

[Rob Psyence]

waldstr18 wrote...

the differnce between your theory and fight club, memento and inception is, that its clear to everyone that there is at least something going on. now in mass effect 3 its not clear for the average player, like me, to pick up on something like your theory. my point being, if it were indoctrination, they would have told us in some undisputable way.

now you could argue that they will tell us in the dlc, but they changed statements in between, as far as i can recall. first they said, no changing the ending, then they said, fans need more closure. if your theory is right and it was planned all along, then why would they change statements? instead they would have said: wait for it... wait for it ... BOOM!

and art or not, moneyz! oh, and the movie are a bad example for your point. just look at hollywood and the movies it craps out. if you are interested in that topic i can really recomment the big picture show by movie bob on the escapistmagazine.com. he seems to be smart by the way.

also, another reason why i dont like the indoctrination theory, i dont think the last part of the game would make a good indoctrination. dont get me wrong, i really liked it. i actually jumped up and said "f! yeah!" when my girl started limping. i even took a crap between the star child explanation and my actual choosing, cause i wanted to really think it through, thats how amazed i were with the choices given. (oh, that actually might also point in the direction of me not being that bright... yet i enjoyed sitting on the toilett contemplating) anyhow... but all that being indoctrination? i would expect more. so your indoctrination theory would actually destroy the ending for me.

just for the record: the end videos are crap and need to be changed.

Repost:

I once again find myself having to reiterate one of the biggest points in my eyes that Harbinger/the reapers are shown to be attempting to influence Shepard/the player's choice to the naysayers. I ask this... Why is TIM who is obviously and proven to be indoctorinated used to show off the "control" option bathed in the blue of paragon? Why is Anderson who throughout the games and the books has been a stand up guy fighting to protect everyone as if they were his children, used to show off the "destroy" option bathed in the red of renegade?

Can you naysayers honestly look at me and tell me that seems right? Also can you tell me that is not intentional? TIM spends the entire game actively trying to convince shepard, to convince you to take control...He IS indoctorinated. Fundamentally you can take anything he says as a fallacy, his words may as well be from Harbinger himself...yet it's paragon...that doesnt seem strange to you?

[Cucobr]

xsdob wrote...

Rob Psyence wrote...

xsdob wrote...

As a thought to the shepard was indoctrinated this whole time thought, how come he could kill that reaper on rannoch, or the two in the final battle? Shouldn't he have messed up his aim, or pressed the button too early or late, or something to show that he wasn't fully in control if he was at such an advanced stage of indoctrination to be hallucinating and hearing voices in his head?

They're trying to indoctorinate him, he isn't indoctorinated unless you give in to picking control or synthesis. Until they have control they can't influence what he does directly they can only cloud his judgement (making him see a kid  that is not there) and before the end it only happens the strongest in his dreams. At the end he gets blasted by a beam and is battle damaged so his will consciousness is weakened

Than how come they didn't jsut make me unsure about whether he had lined up the shot correctly? Or made him halluciante that something had gone wrong with th targeting systems for the guns?

And what do you mean by trying? Once someone's indoctrinated to the point of hallucinations than your already fully indoctrianted. Seeing the kid and hearing voices and hums should pretty much mean shepard in now at least 80% under reaper control. The porcess never receds, the only peoeple who resit it are those not yet fully under it's effects such as benizia, and even she got back under it's influence after about a minute, so what's gonna happen to shepard when he wakes up and the reapers go right back to clawing at his brain.

The process is a steady force that doesn't recede, you don't have to be tricked through an illusion to acceptjing their control, it just happens after they mess with your neural pathways and synapsis long enough.

This avatar of yours make me want to punch someone on the face.


really.

[Iconoclaste]

For a "meme" to be successful, only need to reiterate it. No need to justify it, that comes at a later stage. Most popular "memes" will reflect the biggest "consensus", hence have the best chance to be taken into account. Just bump the IT thread, and it will score.

[madmaxjr3]

I do hope and wish it was a dream/nightmare/hallucination/Indoctrination but i dont know if anyone has pointed this out yet but I think that Javik the Protheans disproves this thoery by bioware adding him later maybe they saw the same suff and it was too late to change but wouldn't javik detected by touch if sheperd was indoctrinated at all??? his own people were indoctrinated so wouldn't he be able to sense sheperd being controlled by the reapers?? not sure just a thought of mine again dont know if someone posted this already

[Iconoclaste]

He wasn't indoc at that time.