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[ComradeNapoleon]

Hey, this is my first post on the forums - I'm convinced by the IT, and that those who don't coudn't see foreshadowing and referencing if it danced naked in front of them.

But I noticed something that I think is really significant, and thought it was worth mentioning. When you're on the citadel, turn around and look the way you came when you're crossing the bridge. To your left and right there are waterfalls, many of them. The "water" is a deep, blood red. Now, I'm sure those advocates of "logic" and "reason" won't try and argue that even that many humans have THAT much blood in them. Seems pretty easy to interpret, thought it was interesting

[Rob Psyence]

waldstr18 wrote...

greywarden guy, i keep forgetting you have accounted something for all 3 choices. sorry for that. oh, and i played all three games several times. but always paragon only, i just cant bring myself to take a red option. maybe i should visit a neurologist.

rifneno: no, i didnt find the star child odd. i really didnt. but then again, /me average player.

and to my noobian friend: the irony eludes you, and im sorry for that.

That's exactly it, that is exactly what they're counting on, for people like you to blindly go into the night, picking paragon no matter what and not thinking about it. I don't know about anyone else but I figured this out WHILE I was playing the ending. It was strange and seemed off, so I picked destroy. I refuse to believe that Anderson is renegade, I will not side with an indoctorinated fool. In addition, before that, I convinced TIM of the err in his ways and he shot himself.

[greywardencommander]

Aanlen wrote...

I don't know if this has been mentioned before, but here goes:

I'm sure most have noticed that the ending scene with the grampa and that kid is taken right from Starchild by Wintersun www.youtube.com/watch . Could this song be a hint to the indoctrination theory? Becuase I read over the lyrics, and it really seems like it is: 

-------

[Part I (Wanderer of Time)]
So mysterious is your world, concealed beyond the stars
Far away from the earth, it flows one with time and dark as the night Million shapes and colours are storming inside your mind
Creating endless dimensions Forming universes without walls
Let go! of the stars, the stars that fell into the sea
Let go! of your thoughts and dreams, what can you see now
You cannot save them anymore - Wanderer of time - It's too late now - Creator of Dimensions - Destroy the walls of time Hands of the blind are holding your fate Tides of life will take you away, will take you away
Starchild! Visions are born from the unknown force It dominates the way of time The dream only ends, when the worlds come to an end Starchild! You cannot escape to the dark streams of the sea, to suppress your dreams Nothing can keep you away from the need to create 'cause your path is free...

[Part II (Buring Star)]
I've hold the fire within myself Years I've walked in the coldest winds Through the deserts of sand and snow The time is passing and I know, that I'm wasting my life, destroying my dreams I'm diving into the bottomless sea From sorrow and pain I find my strength the more pain I feel, the more I see Now I'm watching my life flowing in the dark like streams of fear running through my heart And it's wearing me down until I'm gone Soon I'll join the endless whirls of stars And I fall deeper into the unknown voids Something is dying, yet something is born And I fall into infinity like a burning star When will I find my silent dawn I fall like a burning star!

[Part III (The Creation)]
The curtains of mist are fading and the veils of star clouds are revealed Storms of new energy flows in the depths of my mind New constellations are born in total harmony of perfection And the dissonant unbalance was broken as the colours fell straight from the light

[Part IV (The Sea of Stars)]
I'm floating in the sea of stars, I'm drifting away from the shore I will be lost in the dream when the dark days come But I will make the time run backwards and I'll make the stars shine again I will light up the sky to a bright crimson nights ... And they'll shine together forever With brilliant silver colours they'll shine forever

[Part V (Finale)]
The whirls of stars takes you now far away away from the cold nightmare Let go of you thoughts and dreams and you will feel the warmth once again Starchild! in the Sea of Stars you fall You fall like a burning star! Starchild! in the Sea of Stars you fall ... But there is no end to creation

--------------

It talks a lot about dreams, about waking up, about revealing new energy in your mind. I feel like its a hint. It's certanly not proof, but the first time I saw the tie-up with this song, I felt like it was a hint, and not just lazyness.

yep the stock image is 'winter space' and 'starchild' has those lyrics I argued it could be a hint in itself (if it was intentional then it should have been the credits song) as the theme of burning, starchild (the term used re. 'the guardian) and the idea of the framed narrative 'unreliable narrator' who is making stuff up because he wasn' t there or for effect (like in DA2) - how does he know what happened re. the final scene, he doesn't it's based on the legend of The Shepard
'When will I get to see the stars' could just be he's a kid, he's too young to go flying round the galaxy like his hero thus - doesn't mean the ME relays have been destroyed thus it's conceivable that the ending is based on the legend (and common knowledge) that Shepard fought off Reaper's indoctrination and still won (like Harry Potter surviving the killing curse twice and defeating Voldermort, i.e. it's impossible but it was the greatest weapon)

Thus if intentional and they went guys if you have the MP code with the game = you get the endings downloaded have fun = literary genius even if the PR stage and the idea of not having it on disk is morally questionable...

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

waldstr18 wrote...

greywarden guy, i keep forgetting you have accounted something for all 3 choices. sorry for that. oh, and i played all three games several times. but always paragon only, i just cant bring myself to take a red option. maybe i should visit a neurologist.

rifneno: no, i didnt find the star child odd. i really didnt. but then again, /me average player.

and to my noobian friend: the irony eludes you, and im sorry for that.

Oh you are full Paragon then I am going to assume you made peace between the Quarians and the Geth right? The perfect place for Synthesis to happen, right?

Wrong. Synthesis even if it was physically possible goes against the fundamental beliefs of the Geth. Remember what Legion said about the Geth, about how they seek to make a future for themselves, a future free of others controlling them or changing them.

Yet in the end that is what you do in Synthesis. You change them, you change every species in the Galaxy based upon your own decision if the ending is to be taken at face value.

Now is Syntheis not preferable to Destruction? Normally i guess that would be yes, but as I said this is not just the Geth but every species you change without their consent...one person...

Synthesis, the great compromise going against the fundamental belief of an entire species and implemented by a single person...yeah, real great.

Its flaws like that, that make me certain something is wrong.

Modifié par Raistlin Majare 1992, 27 mars 2012 - 08:31 .

[Kenthen]

DuskRose wrote...

I'd steal it too, Kyzee, if mine weren't already full.

Can we agree to stop demeaning one another and just be patient for a week or so?

Sounds like a plan. And yeah, definitely stealing Kyzee's sig.

[Jillers]

nyrocron wrote...

waldstr18 wrote...

the differnce between your theory and fight club, memento and inception is, that its clear to everyone that there is at least something going on.

Are you serious? You think that it is not clear that something is going on in the end?

Just to back up nyrocron here...

My 360 is in the living room, so every time I played my mother ended up watching a lot of it. When I reached endgame, after the beam hit, she said "Is this a dream sequence?" to which I replied "I hope so..."

Just saying, it seemed "obvious", to someone who did not play the game and does not play video games, that there was something "off" about the end. So... I think if it's clear to someone who was no where as immersed in the game as I was that something was different about that sequence (even without knowing the lore) that plenty of other people who played the game also noticed that something had to be going on.

...whatever they personally understood to be going on is something entirely different. 

[Iconoclaste]

palacios wrote...

I also find it weird that the game puts you back before the cerberus mission, not before the earth mission. Meaning that once they release the complete ending, you have to go through it again. perhaps we missed something important at the cerberus base? I also see the end as a learning lesson for players because we're going to have to go through this at least one more time and this time it will be final.
Does anyone else have a thought about how you dont get locked in to anything at the end, no matter what you choose and you go back two missions before?

It's already been addressed somewhere in there that this is the last "free point" before being locked in the "last mission". So it allowes you to finish any sidequest you left behind, and such.

Modifié par Iconoclaste, 27 mars 2012 - 08:30 .

[Kyzee]

DuskRose wrote...

I'd steal it too, Kyzee, if mine weren't already full.

Can we agree to stop demeaning one another and just be patient for a week or so?

Ha! My plea for civility inspires "theft." I love it! 

(Okay, sorry--back on topic, I promise.)

[waldstr18]

maybe i am indoctrinated. everyone is talking to me?!

like i said. if it was indoctrination it could have been done a lot better. and thats what bothers me. also one of the reasons i dont believe in idt (is that the official appreviation?).

and im no russian singing trololololo. i actually want to get back to the game which is running next to me. im dead on some roof in london for the goddess knows how long, but somehow i have to keep arguing about something in here.

i actually lost track how i got here. i think it went something like: i dont believe it and am looking forward to the developers telling you there was no indoctrination. and with that some of you started defending the idt and then i had to defend my opinion of course ... i dont know. i like to talk.

[Rob Psyence]

ooo look its blue, that must be the "good, paragon" choice *ignores TIM in the shot* @_@

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

waldstr18 wrote...

maybe i am indoctrinated. everyone is talking to me?!

like i said. if it was indoctrination it could have been done a lot better. and thats what bothers me. also one of the reasons i dont believe in idt (is that the official appreviation?).

and im no russian singing trololololo. i actually want to get back to the game which is running next to me. im dead on some roof in london for the goddess knows how long, but somehow i have to keep arguing about something in here.

i actually lost track how i got here. i think it went something like: i dont believe it and am looking forward to the developers telling you there was no indoctrination. and with that some of you started defending the idt and then i had to defend my opinion of course ... i dont know. i like to talk.

Give us an example of how it could have been done better? Really dont say thinsg like that unless you, yourself can give an example, an explanation or a link to such.

And I really doubt you could make a better Indoctrination scene than one that brings the entire fan base into an uproar as they are not certain what happened...

[K2daE]

palacios wrote...

I also find it weird that the game puts you back before the cerberus mission, not before the earth mission. Meaning that once they release the complete ending, you have to go through it again. perhaps we missed something important at the cerberus base? I also see the end as a learning lesson for players because we're going to have to go through this at least one more time and this time it will be final.
Does anyone else have a thought about how you dont get locked in to anything at the end, no matter what you choose and you go back two missions before?

You can choose to replay the final "mission" from after you were hit by Harbringer's beam. I would say that it puts you back that far because they have said that you wont be able to complete missions after the Earth event. So I'm guessing that dlcs would be writen as happening before you attempt to take back Earth. This does not mean that nothing will happen to the endings or that IT is not possible.

[Dance Craze]

greywardencommander wrote...

Dance Craze wrote...

Then if you destroy the reapers and break indoctrination... How and why would harbinger show you this happy stargazer stuff?

Edit: Or for that matter show you that your crew has escaped and that you have made the right choice? No sense.

Harbinger is planting it in his mind (last 10 minutes is all in his mind) and is playing on the hope that Shepard has that everything will be ok in the end even if not for him the galaxy and his crew

But WHY or HOW could he do that if you chose to destroy the reapers/broke indoctrination? Why or how would he make you feel like that was the right choice? You are no longer under his control at that point. Also: Why is shepard refered to as "the shepard" in the stargazer scene? Does this mean that machines have taken over and refer to him like the geth would refer to each other? 

Modifié par Dance Craze, 27 mars 2012 - 08:36 .

[greywardencommander]

waldstr18 wrote...

greywarden guy, i keep forgetting you have accounted something for all 3 choices. sorry for that. oh, and i played all three games several times. but always paragon only, i just cant bring myself to take a red option. maybe i should visit a neurologist.

rifneno: no, i didnt find the star child odd. i really didnt. but then again, /me average player.

and to my noobian friend: the irony eludes you, and im sorry for that.

that is fair and I hope you realise I'm just picking up on every point not attacking you or anything (as I am treating your posts)

if you've read my thread you'll know it's all based on the idea WHY you should realise something's up in the last sequence regardless of having played the games purely based on the colour choice (we've been conditioned) the characters used to depict it (conditioned) the dialogue presentation (synthesis the space magic compromise but it's just stopping you from getting what you want so he gets what he wants, classic customer service and PR) the fact he says 'I control the reapers' your enemy = alarm bells why should I take you at your word

if it was in the head that means wait a minute it's not the end of Shepard or ME3 wait is the war over ahhhhhh there's more to come...

So the point I'm making is that you can not know anything and realise the endings are a trick (I tested it with my friends who don't like Sci Fi, RPG's or video games really) thus something's coming in that regard (free or otherwise but I'm going to stick with free for now)

We're conditoned to 'the ending is the ending' thus the backlash thus - could be genuine human error on EA/Bioware's part thinking the story part would be enough to excite the fans, just like human error can = bad writing, plot holes (which there are even without the ending's I'm not deliriously blind in love for ME or Bioware) and 'rushed'

[Rob Psyence]

My tribute song to Waldstr18, *cough,ahem* Mary had a little lamb, little lamb, whose fleece was white as snow.

Modifié par Rob Psyence, 27 mars 2012 - 08:38 .

[waldstr18]

jillers, what would your mother say, if she saw you in a battle shortly before you die. you know, when the screen gets darker and red on the edges.

and to defend my simple mindedness:
legion said, my mind makes its own pictures (the quarians.. i know you know what i mean)
i met the child. i had dreams with the child in it. (but in the end it was transparent)
and to me the star child explanations made sense.

having just typed that, i know thats going to be another discussion for at least an hour...

[palacios]

K2daE wrote...

palacios wrote...

I also find it weird that the game puts you back before the cerberus mission, not before the earth mission. Meaning that once they release the complete ending, you have to go through it again. perhaps we missed something important at the cerberus base? I also see the end as a learning lesson for players because we're going to have to go through this at least one more time and this time it will be final.
Does anyone else have a thought about how you dont get locked in to anything at the end, no matter what you choose and you go back two missions before?

You can choose to replay the final "mission" from after you were hit by Harbringer's beam. I would say that it puts you back that far because they have said that you wont be able to complete missions after the Earth event. So I'm guessing that dlcs would be writen as happening before you attempt to take back Earth. This does not mean that nothing will happen to the endings or that IT is not possible.

 I suppose it could just be that.... I feel that's a lot of replaying the end. How many dlcs can they come up with in a year. Lots..I'm hoping for a massive multiplayer collaboration against the reapers to be a part of the ending but that's my imagination going wild.

I fully support IDT  btw.  

[Tr0n01d]

 About the origins of the reapers, I think that  after I pieced together all the information exposed on this 900 pages long topic I came along with a pretty solid theory.

Be aware, wall of text incoming !

The reapers are in fact the last relics of a million year old civilisation, ( call them what you want ).

Harbinger ( true name ? )  was once an organic being.

During that time a huge war brought the galaxy to the brink of collapsing.

planets where sucked of their resources until their last drop or dust, or just blown away with hyper weapons of mass destruction.
( If I remember correctly, in the codex they explain that the particularity of one planet is that it have a enormous canyon that scared one face of the planet and seemed the results of a huge laser canon ).

One faction created the reapers not as we know them today but as warships, mere weapons.

But the warships ultimately gained consciousness, like the geth, but unlike them they decided to wipe out all the organic beings ( everyone, not just the advanced civilisations ) because they judged that organics where inferior ( or something like that )

they almost succeeded.

Harbinger's civilisation last resort consisted in a crucible like weapon that would allow to take the control over them, but they wouldn't be able to save their civilisation.


why ?

the galaxy was in such poor conditions that it could not sustain those civilisations needs, ( imagine if we run out of oil in one day ).

they ultimately disappeared.
only the reapers remained.

But they needed a catalyst, someone who should sacrifice himself in order to merge with a reaper and gain control on the others.

a mega reaper of sorts ( yea, harby as we now know ).

Harbinger, now in command of a huge army of warships with enough power to tear the galaxy apart and in reaper form decided that in order to avoid such a tragedy to happen ever again ( galaxy merely destroyed, organics completely wiped out, creation of a weapon of mass destruction that looses control, etc... ), he would "clean" the board every now and then ( every 50000 years ), but preserving the less advanced beings in order to allow organic life to be preserved.

I don't know if planets can refill themselves, but allow the galaxy to recover can be a nice reason to. ( I think )

and that is why ( in my opinion ) harbinger is so obsessed with Shepard, because he wants you in order to become the new catalyst, take his place and perpetuate the cycles.

and there is where Shepard indoctrination comes.

in order to succeed, harbinger has to make Shepard agree with his way of thinking.


the end 

just my opinion anyway, take it as you want.

sorry for my multiple faults, English is not my native language.

Modifié par Tr0n01d, 27 mars 2012 - 08:43 .

[Rob Psyence]

Yep cause the starchild saying "Hur durr i made the reapers, that are synthetic, to kill off billions of people in order to save organics from making sythetics that will destroy you." Makes complete sense.

[Sammuthegreat]

Jillers wrote...

nyrocron wrote...

waldstr18 wrote...

the differnce between your theory and fight club, memento and inception is, that its clear to everyone that there is at least something going on.

Are you serious? You think that it is not clear that something is going on in the end?

Just to back up nyrocron here...

My 360 is in the living room, so every time I played my mother ended up watching a lot of it. When I reached endgame, after the beam hit, she said "Is this a dream sequence?" to which I replied "I hope so..."

Just saying, it seemed "obvious", to someone who did not play the game and does not play video games, that there was something "off" about the end. So... I think if it's clear to someone who was no where as immersed in the game as I was that something was different about that sequence (even without knowing the lore) that plenty of other people who played the game also noticed that something had to be going on.

...whatever they personally understood to be going on is something entirely different. 

If the IT is true, though, all BioWare need to do is to include in the "real ending" DLC extension an in-game explanation of what happened. That way people who DID understand the indoctrination scene get their reward; people who don't (most of whom will probably be new to the game if they've not read anything about the endings on the internet) get an explanation that makes sense, so they don't lose out on anything either.

Secondly, I KEEP seeing people complaining that "if there's an ending DLC, I'll get punished for choosing Control or Synthesise." Why is that automatically assumed? It really wouldn't take a great deal of thought on BioWare's part to make the DLC include happy endings for people who DIDN'T choose Destroy, as well as unhappy endings for people who DID. It would make absolutely no sense to force people to choose that one path, and it really doesn't take a great deal of imagination to think of a solution.

Something like this (posted several times in this thread, although I can understand people not wanting to trawl through 950 pages of posts to find it):

Sammuthegreat wrote...I'd prefer it if there were some way of reversing your decision in the Starchild sequence once you find out that it was all a hallucination. I'm not 100% sure how that could work though.

What I would like to see for indoctrinated Shepards is a scene where he turns on his squadmates. Perhaps your reputation could help you here - there could be occasional Paragon/Renegade interrupts where you could "fight back" against the indoctrination, and pull Shepard's gun aside to stop him from killing a squadmate? Perhaps your war assets would determine your fate - the higher the war assets, the more people there are to remind Indoctrinated Shepard of what he was originally fighting for? Perhaps this could make him the first person to successfully break free of indoctrination, or alternatively he could break free just long enough to kill himself, like Saren and TIM in the hallucination, but by sacrificing himself to save the galaxy (e.g. by firing the real Crucible or something similar).

EDIT: the ^above^ in table form:

Chose Destroy with EMS >5000 - Shep is not indoctrinated. The endgame proceeds normally. All squadmates survive and the reapers are beaten.
Chose Destroy with EMS between 4000 and 5000 - Shep is not indoctrinated. The endgame proceeds normally. One or two squadmates die.
Chose Destroy with EMS between 3000 and 4000 - Shep is not indoctrinated. The endgame proceeds normally. One or two squadmates die, plus your love interest if you have one.
Chose Destroy with EMS between 2000 and 3000 - Shep is not indoctrinated. The endgame proceeds normally. All squadmates, including love interest, die, and Shepard sacrifices himself to beat the reapers. Dire consequences for the Alliance/Earth.
Chose Destroy with EMS <2000 - Shep is not indoctrinated. The endgame proceeds normally. Squaddies and Shepard all die, and reapers win.

Chose Control/Synthesise with EMS >5000 - Shep is indoctrinated, but breaks free (after turning on squadmates) and is able to finish the fight.
Chose Control/Synthesise with EMS between 4000 and 5000 - Shep is indoctrinated, but breaks free after killing a squadmate or two, and proceeds to finish the fight. Survives.
Chose Control/Synthesise with EMS between 3000 and 4000 - Shep is indoctrinated, but breaks free after killing a squadmate or two, long enough to sacrifice himself to finish the fight.
Chose Control/Synthesise with EMS between 2000 and 3000 - Shep is indoctrinated, but breaks free long enough to let a squadmate kill him/kill himself before he does any more damage. Squadmate may finish the fight, but with dire consequences for the Alliance/Earth.
Chose Control/Synthesise with EMS <2000 - Shep is indoctrinated, but fails to break free. He kills most/all of his squadmates, and the reapers win.

This would also allow for the possibility of failure. If your war assets are too low, then you don't break out of indoctrination, and the reapers use you as an agent to bring down the Alliance resistance from within.

A few thoughts that (for me, at least) would refine your promising ideas a bit.

 

[Kanon777]

BloodClaw95 wrote...

tobito113 wrote...

madmaxjr3 wrote...

I do hope and wish it was a dream/nightmare/hallucination/Indoctrination but i dont know if anyone has pointed this out yet but I think that Javik the Protheans disproves this thoery by bioware adding him later maybe they saw the same suff and it was too late to change but wouldn't javik detected by touch if sheperd was indoctrinated at all??? his own people were indoctrinated so wouldn't he be able to sense sheperd being controlled by the reapers?? not sure just a thought of mine again dont know if someone posted this already

Didnt Javik also said that the reapers loved to use children (husks or indocrinated) against people?

That could be hint.

He said one of the races during his cycle thought sacrificing their young would make the Reapers leave.

No there was a dialogue with him, where he say the reapers used children to break the proteans morale. He even asks sheppard what he would do in the same situation leading to a renegade/paragon dialogue choice

[Skillz1986]

I'm pretty sure aria will have a larger role in upcomming dlc...take back omega for example..or something like that

[Vahilor]

Only to mention it. I'm playing the part with Vigil at Ilos atm.. and he is telling Shep that the reaper deactivated all Mass Relays to stop the organics from traveling. So I suggest the Reaper not really need the Mass Relays..

[waldstr18]

i did give you an example for a better indoctrination.

the one where you have to make a choice which is clearly wrong, to save someone/everyone. there would be some emotional distress in it. please dont force me to actually write a scene with multiple outcomes, cause i know noobsauce would pick it apart and not laugh at my jokes.. grumpy as he is (assuming he is a he).

oh, and greysomething.... why dont you all get simpler names! no, i really liked your conditioning stuff. the word red written in green. thought a lot about it and not only concerning mass effect. thanks for that.