57139 réponses à ce sujet

[Stigweird85]

Spiderman_2028 wrote...

Speaking of Cerberus HQ... Been wondering why jamming your OmniBlade into Kai Leng's guts, when he clearly intends to turn you into a Shap-Ka-bob, was a Renegade action? It seemed to me that even a Paragon Shep would want to take out Kai Leng... He tried to Kill Miranda, Killed Thane, sent that smug email after Thessia... The goal of that scene was to defeat Leng- I assumed that meant he would be killed, given how scared everyone was of him- why do Shep & co leave him breathing, before either staring out a window, or as Shep seems to do- hop online and check his FarmVille game?

I didnt strike me as a wholly 'Renegade' thing to do. At that point, it looked like unless you hit that prompt, Shep is toast. Reading about IT- I wonder if that could be an indicator of the Reaper influence? Making self-preservation a Renegade action, with no other option presenting itself other than 'cross your fingers' seemed off to me - I remember at the time feeling forced into that choice, and didn't have that sense in ME2, or up to that point in 3,

Probably coincidence, I know. Not clinging to/grasping that straw for dear life. It's been bugging me though, and I'd be interested to know if anyone else had a similar vibe?

Not to mention the countless people he killed in the Mass Effect novels. I was so glad to be able to get the chance to kill that *******

If you ignore renegade option you still kill him, just less agressivly if there is a non agressive stabbing murder

[BastiSito]

DreamTension wrote...

Ahhh!  I see what you are saying.  Christ...I haven't wanted something to be true as much as I want the IDT to be true...

And I just replayed ME1 all the way through and your quotes above are exactly what I wanted to post about.  Glad somebody mentioned this.  Thanks

For some weird minutes I anticipated Shepard to wake up, indoctrinated nad/or husk-ified and all your friends becoming hostile. Fighting the Reaper-Shepard, while you struggle for the remains of your free will.

Well, instead there was a crash-landing of a soon-to-be-court-martialed Joker.

[Spiderman_2028]

Thorwind wrote...]

you have a point there, it is the same case as the renegade choice of taking out TIM with 'the provided'' hand gun before killing Anderson

Yep- that's where I was headed:P saving Anderson by Shooting TIM is clearly not what I would consider 'Renegade' in nature- and yet ignore that prompt, and ur buddy is gone-ski... If you apply IT, then Harbingers influence is altering your perception of right and wrong (as discussed at length in this thread) - or if IT is ignored, it's TIM...

With or without IT, the seeming switch at the Cerberus base with Leng could be an earlier manifestation of that influence- be it Harbinger or TIM (since your at his Base and all).

This whole train of thought led me to ponder something else- why, once you finish the game, do you go right back to Cerberus HQ?

Without It, you could assume Bioware want you to see all the endings, and that's it.

IT applied- perhaps no matter your choices with Space-kid, you go back to try again- if you pick destroy, Harby tries to suck you in again... If you choose Synthesis/Control, Shep continues to fight against the Indoctrination- eg 2nd or 3rd time around you finally pick Destroy, see the Shep breathing scene, and break Harby's hold...

Maybe we should all be making sure we go back and pick the ending we would want to carry on from, before PAX...!

[TheVolusSuck]

I personally want indoctsheps to end up being killed by their LI(Or suicide given proper conditions). My shep included (The color-switch at the end threw me off, I was busy trying to comprehend the vast amounts of BS being thrown at me.)

[Thorwind]

DreamTension wrote...

Thorwind wrote...

Spiderman_2028 wrote...

Speaking of Cerberus HQ... Been wondering why jamming your OmniBlade into Kai Leng's guts, when he clearly intends to turn you into a Shap-Ka-bob, was a Renegade action? It seemed to me that even a Paragon Shep would want to take out Kai Leng... He tried to Kill Miranda, Killed Thane, sent that smug email after Thessia... The goal of that scene was to defeat Leng- I assumed that meant he would be killed, given how scared everyone was of him- why do Shep & co leave him breathing, before either staring out a window, or as Shep seems to do- hop online and check his FarmVille game?

I didnt strike me as a wholly 'Renegade' thing to do. At that point, it looked like unless you hit that prompt, Shep is toast. Reading about IT- I wonder if that could be an indicator of the Reaper influence? Making self-preservation a Renegade action, with no other option presenting itself other than 'cross your fingers' seemed off to me - I remember at the time feeling forced into that choice, and didn't have that sense in ME2, or up to that point in 3,

Probably coincidence, I know. Not clinging to/grasping that straw for dear life. It's been bugging me though, and I'd be interested to know if anyone else had a similar vibe?

you have a point there, it is the same case as the renegade choice of taking out TIM with 'the provided'' hand gun before killing Anderson

I hate that this game did things like that (like killing Udina was Renegade when he was apparantly about to shoot --I pressed the button without thinking).  After it gave me Renegade points, I realized the same thing with Kai Leng.  
If you don't press the button, you still kill Kai.  It's a wierd thing---something that has deeper meaning or is just a way to add more context situations.

From what I understood if you choose not to kill Udina somebody else will...Ash or one of your companions (can't remember which), but hey you're the man of action saving or taking life as morals or the situation dictates, in all cases (Udina, Kai Leng, TIM) that should have went as a paragon because you were saving someone or yourself.

Violence or not, self preservation is a powerfull thing...also I admit I've been gunning for the oportunity to end Udina since the first game, why should that be a bad thing 

[BastiSito]

TheVolusSuck wrote...

I personally want indoctsheps to end up being killed by their LI(Or suicide given proper conditions). My shep included (The color-switch at the end threw me off, I was busy trying to comprehend the vast amounts of BS being thrown at me.)

It would need a biotic God to solve everything. Unfortunately, mine was killed during some unclever encouragement to fight an Asari.

[DreamTension]

Thorwind wrote...

DreamTension wrote...

Thorwind wrote...

Spiderman_2028 wrote...

Speaking of Cerberus HQ... Been wondering why jamming your OmniBlade into Kai Leng's guts, when he clearly intends to turn you into a Shap-Ka-bob, was a Renegade action? It seemed to me that even a Paragon Shep would want to take out Kai Leng... He tried to Kill Miranda, Killed Thane, sent that smug email after Thessia... The goal of that scene was to defeat Leng- I assumed that meant he would be killed, given how scared everyone was of him- why do Shep & co leave him breathing, before either staring out a window, or as Shep seems to do- hop online and check his FarmVille game?

I didnt strike me as a wholly 'Renegade' thing to do. At that point, it looked like unless you hit that prompt, Shep is toast. Reading about IT- I wonder if that could be an indicator of the Reaper influence? Making self-preservation a Renegade action, with no other option presenting itself other than 'cross your fingers' seemed off to me - I remember at the time feeling forced into that choice, and didn't have that sense in ME2, or up to that point in 3,

Probably coincidence, I know. Not clinging to/grasping that straw for dear life. It's been bugging me though, and I'd be interested to know if anyone else had a similar vibe?

you have a point there, it is the same case as the renegade choice of taking out TIM with 'the provided'' hand gun before killing Anderson

I hate that this game did things like that (like killing Udina was Renegade when he was apparantly about to shoot --I pressed the button without thinking).  After it gave me Renegade points, I realized the same thing with Kai Leng.  
If you don't press the button, you still kill Kai.  It's a wierd thing---something that has deeper meaning or is just a way to add more context situations.

From what I understood if you choose not to kill Udina somebody else will...Ash or one of your companions (can't remember which), but hey you're the man of action saving or taking life as morals or the situation dictates, in all cases (Udina, Kai Leng, TIM) that should have went as a paragon because you were saving someone or yourself.

Violence or not, self preservation is a powerfull thing...also I admit I've been gunning for the oportunity to end Udina since the first game, why should that be a bad thing 

Hmm.  touche'

[Hacedor1566]

Maybe, of you awake indoctrinated, you fight against your own squad and Alliance forces... Imagine... Killing your LI with a Headshot with the Widow sniper rifle...

[Rob_K1]

DreamTension wrote...

BastiSito wrote...

Rob_K1 wrote...

The quote I have access to from Vigil is as follows:

'These indoctrinated servants became sleeper agents under Reaper control. Taken in as refugees by other Protheans, they betrayed them to the machines.'

From this video, at 4:10.

Vigil and the Prothean VIs can detect full and utterly complete indoctrination. They are not capable of detecting beginning or early stages, as there were sleeper agents within the Prothean refugees. Question is: Does this imply a form of "trigger a sleeper"?
So a certain "signal" sent by Harbinger could fully turn Shepard into an indoctrinated puppet?

Ahhh!  I see what you are saying.  Christ...I haven't wanted something to be true as much as I want the IDT to be true...

And I just replayed ME1 all the way through and your quotes above are exactly what I wanted to post about.  Glad somebody mentioned this.  Thanks

First of all, you're most welcome, Dream. I updated that thread of mine with the quote as well, on the Protheans and Indoctrination Detection with the quote and video link.

BastiSito,

I'm no expert. But, if I were asked to give an answer, I would say it is quite possible to send a signal in order to activate a sleeper agent.

Why?

As I said, I'm no expert but there is one crime series in the UK, Wire in the Blood, that I've seen. It's the only thing that I've seen which deals with the reprogramming of the brain and getting people to do what someone else wants via the power of suggestion and such. The person basically targetted people with weak minds and got them to do things via speech. For instance, a character was spoken to on the phone and was commanded to kill himself. Then, there's the fact the characters were killing others because the 'voice' demanded it.

The Reaper's form of indoctrination/mind control might be different though. In other words, the same rules may not apply.

[DreamTension]

Rob_K1,
I was enjoying your other post as well. Very insightful stuff and it shows that Bioware has layers of information and hints spread throughout the games.

[Rob_K1]

Spiderman_2028 wrote...

Thorwind wrote...]

you have a point there, it is the same case as the renegade choice of taking out TIM with 'the provided'' hand gun before killing Anderson

Yep- that's where I was headed:P saving Anderson by Shooting TIM is clearly not what I would consider 'Renegade' in nature- and yet ignore that prompt, and ur buddy is gone-ski... If you apply IT, then Harbingers influence is altering your perception of right and wrong (as discussed at length in this thread) - or if IT is ignored, it's TIM...

With or without IT, the seeming switch at the Cerberus base with Leng could be an earlier manifestation of that influence- be it Harbinger or TIM (since your at his Base and all).

This whole train of thought led me to ponder something else- why, once you finish the game, do you go right back to Cerberus HQ?

Without It, you could assume Bioware want you to see all the endings, and that's it.

IT applied- perhaps no matter your choices with Space-kid, you go back to try again- if you pick destroy, Harby tries to suck you in again... If you choose Synthesis/Control, Shep continues to fight against the Indoctrination- eg 2nd or 3rd time around you finally pick Destroy, see the Shep breathing scene, and break Harby's hold...

Maybe we should all be making sure we go back and pick the ending we would want to carry on from, before PAX...!

Actually, I'm all for the indoctrination theory as it makes the most sense. However, I wouldn't use 'shooting TIM' being treated as a renegade action as proof.

Remember Udina and practically everyone else you get a chance to shoot? It's always a renegade action in ME 2 and 3. The paragon version would be trying to be diplomatic etc.

I do think you can apply what you mentioned to the destroy option being coloured red and control being blue though. Likewise, it shows Anderson choosing destroy and TIM choosing control.

[Derp88]

BastiSito wrote...

TheVolusSuck wrote...

I personally want indoctsheps to end up being killed by their LI(Or suicide given proper conditions). My shep included (The color-switch at the end threw me off, I was busy trying to comprehend the vast amounts of BS being thrown at me.)

It would need a biotic God to solve everything. Unfortunately, mine was killed during some unclever encouragement to fight an Asari.

Charge.

[CaliGuy033]

DreamTension wrote...

Rob_K1,
I was enjoying your other post as well. Very insightful stuff and it shows that Bioware has layers of information and hints spread throughout the games.

What it shows is that people see what they want to see.  Nothing more.

[Rob_K1]

DreamTension wrote...

Rob_K1,
I was enjoying your other post as well. Very insightful stuff and it shows that Bioware has layers of information and hints spread throughout the games.

Thanks for the kind words.  One other thing that has been mentioned by others, which may or may not have anything to do with indoctrination, is that weird whispering can be heard in ME 1 where you talk to Chakwas after finding the beacon on Eden Prime.

It sounds quite similar to the whispers heard in the ME 3 dreams and during the sequence with the Ilusive Man, where you are undeniably under control by him, if not the Reapers.

It can be found at around 1:30, in this video, where he starts saying what he saw. It sounds like the whisper/echo is repeating what he said, which would be 'I saw'. It happens again during the same speech sequence at least one more time, though the words uttered may be different.

[DreamTension]

CaliGuy033 wrote...

DreamTension wrote...

Rob_K1,
I was enjoying your other post as well. Very insightful stuff and it shows that Bioware has layers of information and hints spread throughout the games.

What it shows is that people see what they want to see.  Nothing more.

I'm guessing you are just saying that without actually reading the post because he was connecting ME1 and ME3.  There is no seeing what I want to see.

[Stigweird85]

TheVolusSuck wrote...

I personally want indoctsheps to end up being killed by their LI(Or suicide given proper conditions). My shep included (The color-switch at the end threw me off, I was busy trying to comprehend the vast amounts of BS being thrown at me.)

I had thought of that as an option a while back(I'm just copying and pasting this from another thread) if shep is indoctrinated:

You can "win" the game and save yourself by killing all your teammates or you can sacrifice yourself for the sake of the galaxy(this being a common scenario in all 3 games so far) If you choose to sacrifice yourself then due to indoctrination you will still put up a fight and as a result it'll need to be your love interest who does the deed as he/she is the only one who you allowed to get close to you

Think of it, you now powered by reaper tech overpower your former squad you could even kill or at least seem to kill one of them. Then with the last ounce of your humanity your stop yourself from harming the squad mate allowing them just enough time to pull the trigger.

As it seems like Death releases the thrall(Saren and Benezie got their minds back as they died) you could then throw in a moment akin to "We got them" or if you don't have a love interest it could be Anderson or Hackett who just salute you and offer a mission accomplished.

*feel free to use any of this Bioware I won't mind*

That is how I would do it.

[Rob_K1]

CaliGuy033 wrote...

DreamTension wrote...

Rob_K1,
I was enjoying your other post as well. Very insightful stuff and it shows that Bioware has layers of information and hints spread throughout the games.

What it shows is that people see what they want to see.  Nothing more.

What it shows is that there is no definite proof for or against the indoctrination theory. There will be none until BioWare comes out with new content or speaks out on the endings.

Modifié par Rob_K1, 28 mars 2012 - 03:24 .

[ComradeNapoleon]

DreamTension wrote...

bigstig wrote...

ChuckieJ wrote...

My new theory is below and I think I'm the first to present it. Or boy I hope I am.

Kroen135 wrote...

Yeah it was a huge slap in the face to me. Saw something earlier on this thread about "hidden files" and decided to look into it using my actual ME3 folder and using sources.

It's definately something fresh that can atleast be directed toward IT

So I tweeted @MassEffect because it is a genuine concern to me that people with minimal internet access be able to complete the game. With my theory you need to at least get online because of exactly what Kroen135 mentioned. The content needs to be unlocked. But how? Will it merely unlock on April 6th?

@masseffect I hope this content is easy for people in rural areas to get. Thanks for all your hard work here on the Twitters.

@chuckiej We hope to make any future content accessible to all players, thanks for your Tweets!

My theory:

Chris Priestly gave us the biggest clue of all.

We understand there is a lot of debate on the Mass Effect 3 ending and we will be more than happy to engage in healthy discussions once more people get to experience the game. 

The number of people who have completed the game is the key. Much like Operation: Fortress, Bioware has the ability to capture information about the progress of online gamers playing the campaign (For Xbox, even if they don't have Xbox Live Gold they can still play connected to Live). The content is on the disc and will automatically (or semi-automatically) unlock once a certain number or percentage of players have completed the ending. A ping/short message will be sent to the game (or the game checks for one on launch) much like the one that popped up explaining Operation: Fortress. When the game receieves this message the content unlocks (or for the PC players, it downloads).

Now I definitely could be wrong about the "number or percentage of players" part but I think it would be pretty cool. The other option is to use the same method but unlock it immediately after the PAX panel (after which certainly enough people should have "experienced the game"). The point would be to avoid large downloads for players who might not be able to get them easily. As long as you can get online at all, you can get the content when everyone else does automatically.

Love the idea, my thought which I posted around 100pages I go I think(this thread moves fast)

At Pax a video montage of the final battle is shown, including Shepard breathing. At which point someone from behind crowd dressed as a character, Liara or the new guy(I can't remember his name at the moment) maybe even Edi (can't be any character who could be dead by this point) would yell. Wake Up it's time to take back Earth. Then screen that was showing ending flashes Priority: Take Back Earth.

Imagine the reaction that the annoucement would get, it would be huge

Dude...that....would be so awesome...can't get hopes up...so awesome though...no, they just screwed up....so cool if they planned this.

My little idea would be to have the screen go black, and the distinctive eyes of Harbinger suddenly pierce the darkness, as his voice boomed "Assuming direct control...Shepard is ours" (or something), and then follow on with some epic cutscene of some kind

[BleedingUranium]

Rob_K1 wrote...

Spiderman_2028 wrote...

Thorwind wrote...]

you have a point there, it is the same case as the renegade choice of taking out TIM with 'the provided'' hand gun before killing Anderson

Yep- that's where I was headed:P saving Anderson by Shooting TIM is clearly not what I would consider 'Renegade' in nature- and yet ignore that prompt, and ur buddy is gone-ski... If you apply IT, then Harbingers influence is altering your perception of right and wrong (as discussed at length in this thread) - or if IT is ignored, it's TIM...

With or without IT, the seeming switch at the Cerberus base with Leng could be an earlier manifestation of that influence- be it Harbinger or TIM (since your at his Base and all).

This whole train of thought led me to ponder something else- why, once you finish the game, do you go right back to Cerberus HQ?

Without It, you could assume Bioware want you to see all the endings, and that's it.

IT applied- perhaps no matter your choices with Space-kid, you go back to try again- if you pick destroy, Harby tries to suck you in again... If you choose Synthesis/Control, Shep continues to fight against the Indoctrination- eg 2nd or 3rd time around you finally pick Destroy, see the Shep breathing scene, and break Harby's hold...

Maybe we should all be making sure we go back and pick the ending we would want to carry on from, before PAX...!

Actually, I'm all for the indoctrination theory as it makes the most sense. However, I wouldn't use 'shooting TIM' being treated as a renegade action as proof.

Remember Udina and practically everyone else you get a chance to shoot? It's always a renegade action in ME 2 and 3. The paragon version would be trying to be diplomatic etc.

I do think you can apply what you mentioned to the destroy option being coloured red and control being blue though. Likewise, it shows Anderson choosing destroy and TIM choosing control.

Ths. Renegade isn't evil or bad, it's aggressive. Almost every interupt should be done, the Renegade ones just involve violence. There are only one or two that I don't, like (as someone pointed out) beating up Mouse in ME2, and punching the Reporter in all three. If you don't punch her in ME3 you get War Assets, and if you've never punched her you get even more EDIT: Renegade can be really evil however, especially anything to do with main plot decisions in ME3

Modifié par BleedingUranium, 28 mars 2012 - 03:27 .

[DreamTension]

Rob_K1 wrote...

DreamTension wrote...

Rob_K1,
I was enjoying your other post as well. Very insightful stuff and it shows that Bioware has layers of information and hints spread throughout the games.

Thanks for the kind words.  One other thing that has been mentioned by others, which may or may not have anything to do with indoctrination, is that weird whispering can be heard in ME 1 where you talk to Chakwas after finding the beacon on Eden Prime.

It sounds quite similar to the whispers heard in the ME 3 dreams and during the sequence with the Ilusive Man, where you are undeniably under control by him, if not the Reapers.

It can be found at around 1:30, in this video, where he starts saying what he saw. It sounds like the whisper/echo is repeating what he said, which would be 'I saw'. It happens again during the same speech sequence at least one more time, though the words uttered may be different.

Hmm.  I didn't notice/hear the whispers, but I play with the sound really low (I play after kids are in bed and asleep).  But that is fascinating.  

Yeah, I saw that post earlier (concerning the whispers and dreams).  It was a great read, too.  Aren't their people with sound filterers?  People with way more tech knowledge with me?  We need them to filter this out.  Christ, we had people filter out what Bill Murray said in Lost in Translation and it really didn't matter.  Let's get on this.

[CaliGuy033]

DreamTension wrote...

CaliGuy033 wrote...

DreamTension wrote...

Rob_K1,
I was enjoying your other post as well. Very insightful stuff and it shows that Bioware has layers of information and hints spread throughout the games.

What it shows is that people see what they want to see.  Nothing more.

I'm guessing you are just saying that without actually reading the post because he was connecting ME1 and ME3.  There is no seeing what I want to see.

I read his post.  I absolutely agree with you that there are numerous common threads between the games, sometimes subtle ones.  That's a great thing.

But none of those common threads are hints of IT or any similar interpretation.  

[BastiSito]

Rob_K1 wrote...


What it shows is that there is no definite proof for or against the indoctrination theory. There will be none until BioWare comes out with new content or speaks out on the endings.

Obviously, there can't be. All we have is bits and pieces. Hints, some quite remarkable, some quite questionable. We are in a kind of "Shepard situation", not some kind of "auctorial narrator". We do not know what is real or not - as Shepard doesn't know. We do not know what happens, might happen or could happen. We DO know that we sacrifice ourselves/Shepard, in different ways - but unless we/Shepard do not wake up and see something different (e.g. a smirking biotic god) this is our death and it is real.

It is up to Bioware to either let us/Shepard wake up or die.

By the way, how do you tell, that a Volus is smirking? Just wondering....

[Stigweird85]

Rob_K1 wrote...

DreamTension wrote...

BastiSito wrote...

Rob_K1 wrote...

The quote I have access to from Vigil is as follows:

'These indoctrinated servants became sleeper agents under Reaper control. Taken in as refugees by other Protheans, they betrayed them to the machines.'

From this video, at 4:10.

Vigil and the Prothean VIs can detect full and utterly complete indoctrination. They are not capable of detecting beginning or early stages, as there were sleeper agents within the Prothean refugees. Question is: Does this imply a form of "trigger a sleeper"?
So a certain "signal" sent by Harbinger could fully turn Shepard into an indoctrinated puppet?

Ahhh!  I see what you are saying.  Christ...I haven't wanted something to be true as much as I want the IDT to be true...

And I just replayed ME1 all the way through and your quotes above are exactly what I wanted to post about.  Glad somebody mentioned this.  Thanks

First of all, you're most welcome, Dream. I updated that thread of mine with the quote as well, on the Protheans and Indoctrination Detection with the quote and video link.

BastiSito,

I'm no expert. But, if I were asked to give an answer, I would say it is quite possible to send a signal in order to activate a sleeper agent.

Why?

As I said, I'm no expert but there is one crime series in the UK, Wire in the Blood, that I've seen. It's the only thing that I've seen which deals with the reprogramming of the brain and getting people to do what someone else wants via the power of suggestion and such. The person basically targetted people with weak minds and got them to do things via speech. For instance, a character was spoken to on the phone and was commanded to kill himself. Then, there's the fact the characters were killing others because the 'voice' demanded it.

The Reaper's form of indoctrination/mind control might be different though. In other words, the same rules may not apply.

if you want a real life example of these sort of techniques find a copy of Derren Browns the bank Job. He starts with a group of around 30 people and through prompting and hypnosis etc he gets a member of the public to pull a gun on an armed security driver and rob the van. Wire in the Blood is a drama, Derren Brown is "real"

[CaliGuy033]

Rob_K1 wrote...

CaliGuy033 wrote...

DreamTension wrote...

Rob_K1,
I was enjoying your other post as well. Very insightful stuff and it shows that Bioware has layers of information and hints spread throughout the games.

What it shows is that people see what they want to see.  Nothing more.

What it shows is that there is no definite proof for or against the indoctrination theory. There will be none until BioWare comes out with new content or speaks out on the endings.

There is plenty of proof against IT.  99% of the game and 99% of the ending itself is proof against IT. But funnily enough, confirmation bias has led people to take that proof and spin it into evidence that actually supports the theory.

I just think it's too funny that people are waiting for a Bioware "announcement," as if there is any chance whatsoever that the company is going to say, "Oh yeah, it was Indoctrination Theory.  Good call."

[BastiSito]

BleedingUranium wrote...

Ths. Renegade isn't evil or bad, it's aggressive.(...)

Thanks.
Really, really: Thanks.