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[byne]

Denvian wrote...

BastiSito wrote...


Counter-Argument 1: "Unlimited Ammo is an artistic choice". Unlikely, as they explicitly defied the "unlimited ammo"-gameplay with ME2 (ME1 still had it!). They specifically decided to limit ammo with a "cooling-technique"-explanation within the game. There is no clear reason why it should be dropped at the end of ME3 - and furthermore, dropped without any explanation, not even the shadow of a shadow of a shadow of an explanation.

I don't understand why people defend unlimited ammo as evidence.  Really the same argument could be made with the rest of the game when you do not have the same gun you equipped.  

There are so many better bits of evidence that is silly to worry about this.  

I think the best way to argue for IT is to simply concede this point and move on because you really should focus on stronger evidence becuase really defending weak evidence is just going to convice people that we do indeed wear tin foil hats... My hat is made of cotton thank you! 

I always found the unlimited ammo to be a weak point. I mean, the gun itself representing Shep's resolve is a nice idea, but unlimited ammo is just something they sometimes do in games.

I mean, Grunt got off 6 shots from his Eviscerator shotgun when fighting the Rachni. I never got 6 shots from my Eviscerator

[cyborg2501]

Dance Craze wrote...

Rob_K1 wrote...

Dance Craze wrote...

Over the past day, I have been feeling a strong inclination that the ending is not indoctrination. I was once a true believer and then a doubter and then a true believer once more but now I'm a doubter once again. I feel that it is obvious that the starchild is not a hallucination. The catalyst is a true necessity that is introduced in the very beginning of the game as being crucial to the crucible. If he is not the catalyst, then what would be? It cannot just be the citadel because it is just a space station. This thought has swayed me to the other side once more... Any thoughts as to what else the catalyst would be and what not?

Only an assumption, but it could be something not introduced yet, Shepard or the gathered army themselves.

Why Shepard or the gathered army?

Because they have plenty enough defiance and/or hope. Shepard himself is the one they've placed their trust in.

I do doubt it though. So, back to something that's not been introduced yet or thought of. That is if the kid is not the catalyst and/or isn't real.

Maybe. I think that would be quite interesting if shepard was the catalyst...

I'm surprised this hasn't crossed more peoples' minds. It seems like something that could be dropped on us, then we all have a "DUHHH" moment

[hwf]

Part of the indoctrination theory is that the player of ME3 must believe that there is an ideal choice - a "best choice".

Harbinger wants you, the player, to pick Synthesis (because that's what a Reaper is, synthetics + organic smoothie).
That's why a low EMS score blocks Control and Synthesis - so that the player believes that Destroy is the worst choice.

Modifié par hwf, 28 mars 2012 - 07:08 .

[Jaxitty]

To explain IT better without going deep into it...Consider yourself in Shep's place.

Over three games and several years, you have basically had to shoulder this sh*t by yourself. Sure, you surround yourself with friends to help ease the burden, but any one that has ever been in a prolonged stress environment and saddled with the conscience and responsibility of the lives of those around s/him, knows that eventually all the decisions are on you. Ash or Kaiden can't make them for you, neither can Anderson or EDI, remember, no good deed goes unpunished, and that goes double for military situations.

Who wouldn't, for a moment, let their own dreams and hopes leak through all that because durring this whole time Shep has had to be this strong ubar warrior, even Joker comments that s/he seems more cold and detached. S/he struggles with the losses of friends and aquaintences, people you would have died for...are dieing for you...or rather for your goal.

Near the end any sane person would be near their breaking point, and considering the Reapers need to understand sentient species, at least marginally, in order to indoctrinate them the 3 games have emotionally and psychically worn s/him down to a bloody stump. The Reapers, understanding this weakness even a little bit would give them their opening.

Training though, is everything. Considering what s/he has accomplished ,s/his natural leadership and intelligence and every single close encounter with reaper tech, Indoctrination, while not a foregone conclusion, but coupled with PTSD, grief and s/his own death and resurection, (among many many MANY other things) could more than explain s/his lowered mental and psychological defenses, thus giving Harby his one and only chance to use Sheppard as the target for it's own spear tip. Right into the heart of what makes Sheppard Sheppard, therefor, assuming control, even for just a brief moment.

Modifié par Jaxitty, 28 mars 2012 - 07:09 .

[ChuckieJ]

Dance Craze wrote...

ChuckieJ wrote...

My guess is that the Catalyst, Crucible, Citadel combo actually does nothing. Or at worst it kills organic life (like the Halos) and has no ability to touch the Reapers. Why would the Reapers allow this information to be passed down between cycles? Was it really hidden that well?

Why would the reapers allow organics to go to the citadel anyway!? Why not just drag it with them out to their controlled area if it is so crucial to their being??

You mean the Citadel itself? It's kind of like a spycam where the station itself and the Keepers are spying on us. And it was said to be a mass relay itself that would allow the Reapers to come back quickly. At the end of the first game you prevent that from happening. The Citadel is a Trojan Horse.

[Dance Craze]

But if it can destroy them why not just set up a camera somewhere else? Why not build a regular mass relay instead?

Edit: Im just saying that they shouldve had some foresight.. Also when they attack the galaxy in the 3rd game they do not come through the citadel....

Modifié par Dance Craze, 28 mars 2012 - 07:11 .

[BastiSito]

Denvian wrote...

I don't understand why people defend unlimited ammo as evidence.  Really the same argument could be made with the rest of the game when you do not have the same gun you equipped. 

Swapping guns doesn't reload them.

It is not a defended "evidence", it is just a very strange inconsistancy within the gameplay. And it is strange, as it does not happen anywhere else. Why isn't the gun at the intro, where the cannibals are approaching a weapon with unlimited ammo? The sequence just serves as a filler until the Normandy arrives, so who cares about ammo?

Why switch this very basic game mechanic?

I can't imagine people playing Fallout 3, walking into Megaton and thinking "Oh, all ammo restored and all RAD poisining just vanished. Ah, just a minor game mechanic, don't care". Or going into ME2 suicide mission and "Voilá, don't have to care about ammo. Well, Bioware wanted to make sure I don't run out of ammo when Harbinger presses to hard". That is just a very lame explanation for a change at the very CORE of the gameplay mechanics.

[Dance Craze]

Denvian wrote...

I don't understand why people defend unlimited ammo as evidence.  Really the same argument could be made with the rest of the game when you do not have the same gun you equipped. 

This is true. I often have s pistol out in cutscenes when I was actually carrying an assault rifle.

Modifié par Dance Craze, 28 mars 2012 - 07:12 .

[cyborg2501]

Denvian wrote...

byne wrote...

BubbleDncr wrote...

Sorry if I'm behind on this discussion, but...

Doesn't the fact that the worst possible ending only lets you pick the destroy option, kind of completely debunk the indoctrination theory? Shepard who completely fails, automatically gets to break indoctrination, but Shepard who tried hard to save the galaxy has a 2 out of 3 chance of being indoctrinated?

You also dont live in the worst possible ending. Could just be the Reapers deciding not to bother with you, and leaving you to die.

I always thought that the Lower your EMS the less hope you have and your brain comes up with a much worse scenario because of that lack of hope.

And of course if you get control or destroy depends on what choices you made before with the Reaper base... Did you opt to destroy or control it?

The concept of "Hope" is repeated frequently throughout the game... I agree that the EMS is representative of both internal and external chances of survival.... Hope on the inside, Military strength on the outside

[byne]

Dance Craze wrote...

But if it can destroy them why not just set up a camera somewhere else? Why not build a regular mass relay instead?

Edit: Im just saying that they shouldve had some foresight.. Also when they attack the galaxy in the 3rd game they do not come through the citadel....

The only reason they dont come through the Citadel this time is because the Protheans sabotaged it, as explained by Vigil on Ilos in ME1.

[Dance Craze]

Right. So, it is not a trojan horse since they dont use it.

[Hacedor1566]

@Dance Craze then if ghost child is fake, what would the catalyst be?

The citadel. Maybe the Crucible is the trigger of the gun, and the gun is the Citadel. It has the power to control the Mass Relays, so it can destroy the entire network... And that give the actual ending some sense... And I don't like that...

[N3m3siS96]

Sorry guys but I just cannot get my mind off of the fact that there are these really creepy bushes and trees all around Shepard as soon as he wakes up. Throughout the whole games these bushes and trees ONLY showed up during the dream sequences.

[benben84]

I believe BW had something up their sleeve with this games release. All the evidence suggests so. Especially the pre-scheduled PAX panel. Whether or not the IDT is true is yet to be seen. There are many things that suggest it to be so, and the fact that it was being tossed around as part of the ending and admitted by BW themselves in the ipoop device app shows that many of the signs that point to indoc were planted. I for one am patiently waiting for BW to give us their highly awaited news in April and in no way am I going to shoot down people that obviously only come into this thread to bring negativity. Best thing to do is ignore them as much as you want to click reply. We are here to discuss the theory not argue with those thinking its ridiculous. Being rude and offensive is not showing BW the respect they deserve nor does it shine any kind of good light on the media trolls that watch this thread and report on BW's fanatic followers. We are all here to support BW and their games, keep it positive.

[Dance Craze]

What I am asking is Why would the reapers use the citadel if it is something that can eliminate them so completely through the crucible. Why not use something less potent to spy? Why didnt they protect the citadel better?

[Denvian]

BastiSito wrote...

Why switch this very basic game mechanic?

For cinematic effect at the climax of a game.  It does happen in other games and I thought it was quite effect in that regards.  

Modifié par Denvian, 28 mars 2012 - 07:18 .

[Dance Craze]

Hacedor1566 wrote...

@Dance Craze then if ghost child is fake, what would the catalyst be?

The citadel. Maybe the Crucible is the trigger of the gun, and the gun is the Citadel. It has the power to control the Mass Relays, so it can destroy the entire network... And that give the actual ending some sense... And I don't like that...

lol sorry to have led you to that conclusion 

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

Hacedor1566 wrote...

@Dance Craze then if ghost child is fake, what would the catalyst be?

The citadel. Maybe the Crucible is the trigger of the gun, and the gun is the Citadel. It has the power to control the Mass Relays, so it can destroy the entire network... And that give the actual ending some sense... And I don't like that...

I have actually been considering that part, if the Citadel is the Catalyst then lets look at what the Citadel is. It is the hub of the relay network and a mass relay in itself leading to Dark Space.

Imagine now if the crucible basicly amplifies the natural power of the Citadel and grants whoever controls the Crucible, control of where it fires what it affects of to. Essentially the Citadel could become a massive "cannon" of sorts shooting the Reapers back to darkspace (and possibly far beyond that) in a Mass Relay effect.

It is just a thought i had as that would be defeating the Reapers but without using conventional force.

[njfluffy19]

SO I just beat my second playthrough on insanity. Laughed throughout the ending to attempt to take it all in stride. Garrus (Shep's LI) hops out of the Normandy all cool and collected with Joker, happy to be stranded on some random world with his BFFs, regardless of Shep's obvious death. >

But what's funny is at the very end, after I saw my Shep gasping for air, the cinematic cut to Shep holding her arms out like an airplane in the Citadel (where the kid gives you those crap choices) and it's all blown up with red energy around you. Obvious bug, but it was funny as hell to see. Cheered me up. Wish Origin had a screen shot option. Would've liked to post how derpy she looked.

[mooney6023]

Dance Craze wrote...

Right. So, it is not a trojan horse since they dont use it.

It was a Trojan Horse until the Protheans on Ilos sacrificed themselves to disable it.

The goal in the first game was to stop Saren and Sovereign from reactivating it.

Even afterwards, it is still a gigantic piece of Reaper tech and rife with aparently unexplored areas of inscrutable purpose.   
Heck, they still don't even know where the keepers are born/created within it.

[Dance Craze]

DuskRose wrote...

Dance Craze wrote...

What I am asking is Why would the reapers use the citadel if it is something that can eliminate them so completely through the crucible. Why not use something less potent to spy? Why didnt they protect the citadel better?

They might not have known about the Crucible.  Older races might've figured out how to turn their greatest asset into a trap.

so the reapers are stupid? this thing was worked on for hundreds of thousands of years according to javik... the reapers never contimplated the destruction of the mass relays? And if the crucible can destroy the mass relays and the reapers does this mean that the reaapers are connected to the relays in some form?

[SharpVec]

njfluffy19 wrote...

Wish Origin had a screen shot option. Would've liked to post how derpy she looked.

You should download Fraps (free version is enough). That way you are always just a button press away from saving those great moments.

Modifié par SharpVec, 28 mars 2012 - 07:23 .

[lomar1o]

They really should have added "Critical mission failure thing" after the ending!