55 réponses à ce sujet

[SyyRaaaN]

QuirkyGroundhog wrote...

Why would the Prothean VI know? The Protheans thought it was a weapon too. You only find out its true purpose when it's finally activated.

Well... In my opinion the games story can only be understood with whats said. The Guardian doesn't explain the first act of fear against the cruicible; or why it welcomed it to dock later; except when Shepard made into the magical room. Then it told us...

So according to my logic these two senteces appear to be true within the ME3 story:

A: Guardian fears the crucible and thus it goes to great lengths to prevent it from being used on it.

B: Guardian realises after the cruicible has docked (and that Shepard enters magic room) that "reality" has changed; thus it accepted its own "flawed existance" and accepted the possibility of its destruction.

But for B to become true; A must fail. And within the Mass Effect story, as it was told there is NO WAY, that A could fail in the way it did. A can only fail if the combined fleet wins the battle and forces a Reaper retreat. This isn't the case. It seems to be a blunder, a big blunder from the Reaper/Guardian side. This is in my opinion a severe plot hole if this is true.

Or am I really expected to believe that the ENTIRE Reaper fleet backed off to stop Shepard from entering the blue light? Remember one thing here. The Guardian knows about the cruicible. Would it really be that amazingly dumb, that it gets baited in that matter? No way 

Modifié par SyyRaaaN, 10 mars 2012 - 07:33 .

[QuirkyGroundhog]

The Crucible is a test. When civilization is able to construct and activate it, it means the Cycle will no longer work and a new solution is necessary. So yeah, they'll do whatever they can to keep you from activating it.

[SyyRaaaN]

QuirkyGroundhog wrote...

The Crucible is a test. When civilization is able to construct and activate it, it means the Cycle will no longer work and a new solution is necessary. So yeah, they'll do whatever they can to keep you from activating it.

Ok! Thank you for a good discussion. You can have the final word =) (the one above!).

[TSSR666]

Pandaman102 wrote...

Also we have no idea how long Protheans live or the speed of their ships, it might have taken them a few years to travel from system to system without the relays, but the war lasted centuries, so there was plenty of time for the scenic route.

Quick note, because I keep seeing this point come up again and again when the lore and the game itself is pretty clear: 

The Relays are NOT needed to get between systems, just the most efficent way possible.  Without them, it would take years to cross the galaxy, and there would need to be stops to refuel, but it could be done.  The mass effect core in each ship allows them to hope between worlds and stars, whereas the the Relays allow them to travel between galactic arms effectively for free in hours or days (I forget which.)

By turning off the network, the Protheans were still able to reach the other worlds, but it took a lot of resources and a lot of time.  Mars and Eden prime probably were secret long term colonization that took decades to set up, each hoping to 'start again' someplace away from the reapers.  It's even infered that the protheans on mars went so far as to seal the Relay in ice, thinking the protheans might think the relay was gone ala arrival.  I imagine the reapers were annoyed.

[Bhaal]

QuirkyGroundhog wrote...

The Crucible is a test. When civilization is able to construct and activate it, it means the Cycle will no longer work and a new solution is necessary. So yeah, they'll do whatever they can to keep you from activating it.

Being able to build the crucible means that synthetics no longer kill their makers? That test nothing to do with whole "synthetic kill organics" thing. If building it is enough to pass the test then why reapers do everything they can to keep you activating it.

And where did you get all this. Any dialog, log, hint?

[GennadiosMxms]

SyyRaaaN wrote...

...

Also within the story told in ME3 the Reapers do everything they can to prevent it from accessing the Citadel. Its only when Shepard enters the magic room + the Citadel is docked the Guardian seem to accept that the cycle is broken or flawed.

The little **** from the airducts should have accepted that the cycle is broken and flawed with the last cycle when it became apparent that the Protheans weren't suitable for creating a prothean reaper. His line of reasoning was something along the lines that since organics were to be overthrown by machines anyway, he was to preserve them in reaper form. A large part of the ME2 endgame was that the Collectors couldn't create a reaper from themselves for an unknown reason so they were working on creating a human one.

[QuirkyGroundhog]

Adakutay wrote...

QuirkyGroundhog wrote...

The Crucible is a test. When civilization is able to construct and activate it, it means the Cycle will no longer work and a new solution is necessary. So yeah, they'll do whatever they can to keep you from activating it.

Being able to build the crucible means that synthetics no longer kill their makers? That test nothing to do with whole "synthetic kill organics" thing. If building it is enough to pass the test then why reapers do everything they can to keep you activating it.

And where did you get all this. Any dialog, log, hint?

If civilization is able to build the Crucible then it means the Cycle won't work anymore. The Cycle being the Reaper harvesting solution. So they give you a choice on how to proceed.

[Xeniieeii]

I 100% agree with this theory of the Crucible being the test, it actually makes sense. What doesnt make sense was why they didn't actually say anything about this possibility.

[Bhaal]

QuirkyGroundhog wrote...

If civilization is able to build the Crucible then it means the Cycle won't work anymore. The Cycle being the Reaper harvesting solution. So they give you a choice on how to proceed.

Why they give me the choice? What is the relation between ability of building the crucible and synthetics kill organics plot. Why they even make "the" plan of stopping the cycle? If there wasn't any plot dev- i mean crucible whole harvesting would work forever, right?

I'm asking you again: is there any dialog or log or even hint that verify the things you're saying. (Even then whole thing still makes zero sense but anyway.)

Modifié par Adakutay, 10 mars 2012 - 09:05 .

[MrChowderClam]

Adakutay wrote...

QuirkyGroundhog wrote...

If civilization is able to build the Crucible then it means the Cycle won't work anymore. The Cycle being the Reaper harvesting solution. So they give you a choice on how to proceed.

Why they even make "the" plan of stopping the cycle? If there wasn't any plot dev- i mean crucible whole harvesting would work forever, right?

It means that the reapers aren't powerful to destroy the cycle anymore. Instead of allowing the cycle to develop an unexpected superweapon, the crucible provides one for them, allowing the catalyst to know when the "solution" will no longer work. Like the mass relays, it's all about control and predictability.

edit: watch the endgame again. it's clear that the catalyst has extensive knowledge of the crucicble. incidentally, the catalyst is also the "master" behind the reapers: 
 

Modifié par MrChowderClam, 10 mars 2012 - 09:11 .

[Deltateam Elcor]

Should really stop looking at the story without context.

Thessia is quite easily hinted at, they were there adapting the Asari, trying to get them ready for the next cycle, didnt exactly work humanity would have been a much better candidate.

The Mars beacon wasnt touched because by the looks of it they probably encased the Sol relay themselves, though if they actually did this and how is beyond me, though i always thought it would stop it from functioning.

What still isnt explained is who created the Citadel AI, Reapers, Relays and so on.

[Qutayba]

My understanding is that the Crucible was a project spanning several cycles, the dominant species of each cycle developing it further and preserving what they had for the next generation. Unlike the Architect of the Matrix, the Catalyst did not allow this to happen on purpose, but he is forced to deal with the fact that organic "life found a way." The Reapers would not attempt to damage the Citadel, Sovereign notwithstanding, because the Catalyst is their creator.

@ Adakutay: It DOESN'T make sense, which is one of the reasons people are annoyed at the ending.

Modifié par Qutayba, 10 mars 2012 - 09:19 .

[Ahriman]

QuirkyGroundhog wrote...

The Crucible is a test. When civilization is able to construct and activate it, it means the Cycle will no longer work and a new solution is necessary. So yeah, they'll do whatever they can to keep you from activating it.

Quite doubtful, especially when Vi mentioned that Catalyst wasn't in ancient versions of Crucible scheme. And like previous poster said it shows nothing about organic vs synthetics problem. That shows technical level, nothing more.

[MrChowderClam]

Wizz wrote...

especially when Vi mentioned that Catalyst wasn't in ancient versions of Crucible scheme.

wait, the prothean VI mentions this?

EDIT: Yeah, he does. forgot about that

Modifié par MrChowderClam, 10 mars 2012 - 09:29 .

[Ahriman]

Can't give exact quote, but he said that scheme gets updated every cycle and Catalyst could be included after some point to provide enough energy for it.

[GoblinSapper]

You see Billy, sometimes in space you encounter an anomoly called a 'plot hole' and...

[Bhaal]

MrChowderClam wrote...

It means that the reapers aren't powerful to destroy the cycle anymore. Instead of allowing the cycle to develop an unexpected superweapon, the crucible provides one for them, allowing the catalyst to know when the "solution" will no longer work. Like the mass relays, it's all about control and predictability.

Now i'm sure you're making it up. If there wasn't any blue-print there would be no super weapon, period. Why would any sane race would make "a super weapon that destroys "the" synthetic race that harvests the whole life in the galaxy". Once they know the existence of the reapers it's too late anyway.

MrChowderClam wrote...
edit: watch the endgame again. it's clear that the catalyst has extensive knowledge of the crucicble. incidentally, the catalyst is also the "master" behind the reapers: 
 

Oh watched it okay, to make some sense out of it i forced myself to watch that thing so many times. And that brat clearly explains that he knew no other solution until he's plot deviced changed by crucible. Also he says that chaos will return if you destroy them (an option which is possible due to crucible?). If the crucible is his other option to save organics(his first plan sucks too anyway) then why there is the option of his own destruction when he clearly states it will lead the "chaos". Also if he's able destroy every synthetic with his space magic anyway, shouldn't he just use it at 50.000 years. Wouldn't be more practical than some galaxy wide genocide..... to save organics?

The catalyst has no idea about the crucible, all he knows: due to it now he's able consider new plot devi- i mean options.

Modifié par Adakutay, 10 mars 2012 - 09:40 .

[MrChowderClam]

Adakutay wrote...

The catalyst has no idea about the crucible, all he knows: due to it now he's able consider new plot devi- i mean options.

but he clearly does. whether or not it's a plot device is another story.

edit: I'm not sure I understand the rest of your argument? To me, it makes sense that the creators of the reapers would want to know when their solution does not work anymore. They need a failsafe to ensure that order will be kept even if organic life somehow manages to defeat the reapers. This is why they leave the mass relays behind. In the same fashion, they control the crucible. It allows the catalyst to know when a cycle has become too advanced for the reapers to harvest, thus allowing a new solution to be created.

Modifié par MrChowderClam, 10 mars 2012 - 09:44 .

[Bhaal]

He's just hacked by it! Of course he knows some things about it.

Modifié par Adakutay, 10 mars 2012 - 09:41 .

[Ahriman]

As far as I understand purpose of Crucible is to spread hi-tech magic through relays. But I have no idea about it's original effect, because Kid tells nothing about that and tells only what it can do with Crucible. Or perhaps it was modified so many times by those, who at least tried to understand what it does, so it gained multiple possibilities.

[MrChowderClam]

Adakutay wrote...

He's just hacked by it! Of course he knows some things about it.

right, but you stated before that he doesn't know anything about it. I'm confused. In any case, I guess I can see where you're coming from(?).
The ending certainly does leave a lot open to interpretation. I'm still not completely sold on your argument.

[Bhaal]

MrChowderClam wrote...

Adakutay wrote...

He's just hacked by it! Of course he knows some things about it.

right, but you stated before that he doesn't know anything about it. I'm confused. In any case, I guess I can see where you're coming from(?).
The ending certainly does leave a lot open to interpretation. I'm still not completely sold on your argument.

I stated he doesn't know anything about it until you hack him with it.

Wizz wrote...

As far as I understand purpose of Crucible
is to spread hi-tech magic through relays. But I have no idea about it's
original effect, because Kid tells nothing about that and tells only
what it can do with Crucible. Or perhaps it was modified so many times by those, who at least tried to understand what it does, so it gained multiple possibilities.

Funy part is high tech magic switches are on the citadel not on the crucible.

Modifié par Adakutay, 10 mars 2012 - 09:50 .

[Makatak]

 Hopefully this will help explain the ending.

[Bhaal]

Makatak wrote...

 Hopefully this will help explain the ending.

You're right maybe thats why they copy/paste the end of Deux Ex.

[thoaloa]

Its a big stupid MacGuffin. They could have made it do anything but they chose a very strange suspension of disbelief braking route where it does some very strange space voodoo magic.