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[Tartilus]

Biotic Sage wrote...

Tartilus wrote...

Biotic Sage wrote...

Jayaa wrote...

*snip*

Great post Jayaa!  Any video game that can make me cry and think this much is amazing in my book.

My friend and I debated/discussed the entire trilogy for 4 hours today.  And we still feel like we haven't begun to scratch the surface of its depth.

It sounds like you're just fundamentally looking for something different out of the ending than we (I'll presume to use 'we' in the context of these forums, because it's probably not unreasonable to suggest that the majority of us disliked the ending) were. You feel like some bold statement has been made regarding the nature of conflict and the true cost of ending a cycle of near-peerless destruction, and that satisfies you. Which is great! A lot of us, on the other hand, see plotholes and unresolved questions which lead us to the sort of conversation which doesn't seem to me to be indicative of a good ending. In other words, I don't so much have a problem with the suggestion that the ending was bad (though its mechanics and applicability to this game, with the themes it had previously espoused and the main characters general attitude is, I feel, questionable) as incomplete. As I mentioned elsewhere, this sort of ending to a trilogy would never make it past the editor's desk; it represents an absolute lack of closure, and while that can be intellectually stimulating, most of us were on the lookout for an ending rather than mental masturbatory material. 

I was looking for resolution as well, and I found it.  I disagree with people when they say there are glaring plotholes, although I do find some of the editing at the very final scenes to be a bit questionable; we see no context for how the Normandy ended up blazing through space with all the squadmates on board.  The content, however, I am perfectly fine with.  Editing, could have been a bit better.

Disagree on the mental masturbation point.  I was both intellectually stimulated and emotionally moved.  That's a rare feat for a work to accomplish.

I suppose I can only say that :

1. I was not emotionally moved in any fashion aside from being in a state of increasing disbelief and displeasure as regards the decisions being presented to me, the actions of my character, the quality of the endings (including their plotholes), and the various implications associated therewith,

2. A good ending - at least in any sense I'd recognize - provides stimulation and closure. It answers questions, it ties up plots, it finishes the story. The problem isn't that there's no "And everyone lived happily ever after," it's that there is no analogue to that sentence - no closure for your characters or this galaxy. Mass Effect 3 ends by introducing a series of conditions that will have massive effects (see what I did there!) on every aspect of the universe, and provides us with absolutely no information about how those conditions play out, even for those aspects most intimate to our experience and our character.

I would offer to you that if the game had included an additional ten minutes of epilogue, regardless of Shepherd's fate, which touched on the efforts of these various cultures to rebuild, the fate of your crew members (even in their intensely contrived situation,) the emotional and practical implications of having the various planets largely isolated (or, heck, just focusing on Earth and the now stranded militaries,) and some retrospective regarding your (apparently soon to be legendary) actions, the ending would've not only been better, but objectively better.

[Nekroso22]

Biotic Sage wrote...
I disagree with people when they say there are glaring plotholes, although I do find some of the editing at the very final scenes to be a bit questionable; we see no context for how the Normandy ended up blazing through space with all the squadmates on board. The content, however, I am perfectly fine with. Editing, could have been a bit better.

That's not bad editing, friend.

That there's a plot hole.

[Tazzmission]

mainly because its different and not like every story out there where the hero always wins

[Tessara_Riventi]

So, a quick point from someone who doesn't *like* the ending but has come around to viewing it as incredibly appropriate - especially as an end to ME3.

The central theme of ME3 is atonement via death, for your own mistakes or those of others.

Mordin (for his own sins and the genophage as a whole). Thane (for his own sins, mainly), Kaidan/Ashley (if you don't save them, for Udina's sins and the Council more generally), Legion (for the mistakes of the Quarians and the Geth), Miranda (for her father's mistakes and her own), and so on. Over and over in the game we see that the only way out of terrible, destructive situations is for someone or someones to lay down their life for it.

The death toll to undo the mistake of trapping the galaxy in an endless self-pruning sandbox to keep the organics "safe" but un-free and synthetics a permanent flower-and-destroy even? That's huge.

It's everyone who dies over Earth. It's both the squadmates you take down with you into the final fight. 90% of the time, it's Shepard him/herself.

They lay down their lives to make the situation right - whether "right" is a more benevolent set of Reapers (Control), making everyone into 'higher' beings (Synthesis) or setting everyone free to make their own mistakes (Destroy). You get to decide that, and everything you've done and all the choices you've made inform not the quality of the outcome (though it has something to do with that) but the quality of the universe you're laying down your life to save. Sure, the relays getting destroyed is a major blow, but it's also the end of the trap. It's a fresh start, paid for in blood - yours and the people you've loved and fought with.

That's their theme. That's the underlying idea. And they didn't cop out on it, which makes for something pretty special.

Now, does that mean there aren't plot holes? Nope. There are some serious writing issues and at least one major technical glitch (having dead squadmates walking out of the Normandy on the crash-planet) messing up their ending. But the basic idea is sound in the sense that it finishes the thematic story they've been telling the whole way. It's a tragic story, but it IS their story.

Freedom of choice, it turns out, sometimes amounts to being free to choose how you live with the inevitability of costs having to be paid.

Modifié par Tessara_Riventi, 10 mars 2012 - 04:07 .

[GBGriffin]

Tazzmission wrote...

mainly because its different and not like every story out there where the hero always wins

How is it different from the Matrix or Deus Ex: HR, the two most blatantly obvious comparisons?

[QuirkyGroundhog]

magnetite wrote...

The best war stories usually are about tragedy and sacrifice. The tone of the third game is very dark.

Also I wanted to add that when going up against a race of machines which had billions of years head start on you, it would be very hard for you to come out with sunshine and bunnies. A sad ending seems fitting for me.

Happy endings seem to be cliche anyways. Most people are usually shocked and outraged whenever their character or story ends in a sad way.

I find it wierd that a lot of people who complain about the Crucible as being this deus ex machina like device also seem to think you should have been able to 'win'. If you were going to 'win', you were going to need some pretty solid space magic, cause the way the universe was set up prior to that, it's pretty clear you can't. Protheans had, what, 200 years on you? And they still lost.

[Nekroso22]

Tazzmission wrote...

mainly because its different and not like every story out there where the hero always wins.

The arguments against the ending have nothing to do with Shepard dying or that he "doesn't win." The arguments are mostly against the plot inconsistencies and lack of player choice.

Also, there are plenty of stories where the hero doesn't win. It's become so popular its almost cliche. I would suggest Anna Karenina, 1984, and Farenheit 451 as good starting points for stories where the hero suffers.

[Tazzmission]

GBGriffin wrote...

Tazzmission wrote...

mainly because its different and not like every story out there where the hero always wins

How is it different from the Matrix or Deus Ex: HR, the two most blatantly obvious comparisons?

omg seriously i get the point you hate it fine but do you really have to ruin it for the people who enjoy it for what it is?

ive stated before i never played deus ex and i havent even seen the third matrix suprisingly


another thing im sick of seeing multiple thread son the damn topic and people need to learn that there is a stickey thread just for it

[Tessara_Riventi]

magnetite wrote...

The best war stories usually are about tragedy and sacrifice. The tone of the third game is very dark.

Also I wanted to add that when going up against a race of machines which had billions of years head start on you, it would be very hard for you to come out with sunshine and bunnies. A sad ending seems fitting for me.

Happy endings seem to be cliche anyways. Most people are usually shocked and outraged whenever their character or story ends in a sad way.

Eh, happy or sad endings can be cliche. It's all about structure.

Want to see a really tightly-made and well done sad ending that's still triumphant rather than purely tragic? Go play Halo:Reach. Great game (except for the stupid voiceover at the very end).

ME3 is doing something else - tragedy written in the stars, and characters creating beauty and intmacy and a history of memories that endure even in the face of destruction whether they last a day or forever. The bulk of the game does it really well. The ending has some writing holes, but it's chasing the same idea. That's innovative, but only somewhat - literature has done that plenty, too.

[QuirkyGroundhog]

Tazzmission wrote...

GBGriffin wrote...

Tazzmission wrote...

mainly because its different and not like every story out there where the hero always wins

How is it different from the Matrix or Deus Ex: HR, the two most blatantly obvious comparisons?

omg seriously i get the point you hate it fine but do you really have to ruin it for the people who enjoy it for what it is?

ive stated before i never played deus ex and i havent even seen the third matrix suprisingly


another thing im sick of seeing multiple thread son the damn topic and people need to learn that there is a stickey thread just for it

Man, I liked the ending, but it's pretty Matrix-y. In fact the whole series is basically Galactica meets the Matrix.

[Nekroso22]

Magnetite wrote...
Happy endings seem to be cliche anyways. Most people are usually shocked and outraged whenever their character or story ends in a sad way.

Again, the arguments against the ending have very little to do with the emotional tone. They mostly have to do with the lack of player choice and plot inconsistencies.

Happy endings are not any more cliche than sad ones, it's the execution that decides whether or not a story is good or bad.

[GBGriffin]

Tazzmission wrote...

GBGriffin wrote...

Tazzmission wrote...

mainly because its different and not like every story out there where the hero always wins

How is it different from the Matrix or Deus Ex: HR, the two most blatantly obvious comparisons?

omg seriously i get the point you hate it fine but do you really have to ruin it for the people who enjoy it for what it is?

ive stated before i never played deus ex and i havent even seen the third matrix suprisingly


another thing im sick of seeing multiple thread son the damn topic and people need to learn that there is a stickey thread just for it

It was a legitimate question. Thank you for answering me with your frame of reference.

If you haven't experienced those, or seen those by now, then you should. You'll see how unoriginal the ending to Mass Effect 3 truly is.

For future reference, if you've only seen one instance of something, then of course you'd consider it original

[Tazzmission]

QuirkyGroundhog wrote...

Tazzmission wrote...

GBGriffin wrote...

Tazzmission wrote...

mainly because its different and not like every story out there where the hero always wins

How is it different from the Matrix or Deus Ex: HR, the two most blatantly obvious comparisons?

omg seriously i get the point you hate it fine but do you really have to ruin it for the people who enjoy it for what it is?

ive stated before i never played deus ex and i havent even seen the third matrix suprisingly


another thing im sick of seeing multiple thread son the damn topic and people need to learn that there is a stickey thread just for it

Man, I liked the ending, but it's pretty Matrix-y. In fact the whole series is basically Galactica meets the Matrix.

yea like i said its different hence why i like it

[Crimmsonwind]

I liked it because it was super-emotional and totally overwhelmed me. I've thought about it and there are certainly some questions it raised that I would like answered, but I like the... general direction that they took it in. If that makes any sense.

A part of me still would like a "nice, fluffy" ending, but I think this was a pretty good, powerful, emotional end.

But, to each their own.

[tausra]

Tessara_Riventi wrote...
The central theme of ME3 is atonement via death, for your own mistakes or those of others.

Mordin (for his own sins and the genophage as a whole). Thane (for his own sins, mainly), Kaidan/Ashley (if you don't save them, for Udina's sins and the Council more generally), Legion (for the mistakes of the Quarians and the Geth), Miranda (for her father's mistakes and her own), and so on. Over and over in the game we see that the only way out of terrible, destructive situations is for someone or someones to lay down their life for it.

Only Mordin, Kaiden, Udina, Anderson, Legion and Kerrahe died in my game. Not Miranda, not thane, not grunt and not Tali. Death to atone was not the theme in my Mass Effect, as only 6 people died during the course of the entire series. Do not make generalizations.

[Charane]

In my opinion Mass Effect (game) is all about Shepard and I thought it fitting that Shepard should have a permanent death at the end of the trilogy. That is what I would have chosen for my Shep no matter what choices were available, even if that is a moot point now. I find it unreasonable that Shepard would do anything except die to stop the Reapers, which has been Shepards driving force through all three games.

You had a choice to leave a great legacy from your death, to shape the future of the galaxy as you saw fit. I think your average joe Shep would choose just killing the Reapers and that's all because the other two choices are too much for one being. I don't believe anyone would be rational or of sound mind to be able to make a choice of such magnitude after everything they have been through. I felt emotionally raw after just playing it (I had a very emotional tie to my Shep), nevermind making those kinds of decisions a few shades away from death.

So this is what I felt and thought when given these options. Stunned...Shock...What?! I'm exhausted, weary and near death and I need to do what...really?? blink blink I've just had enough, so die already...me an average joe shep. So for me, the writers of Mass Effect had me emotionally attached to my Shep from beginning to end and that's why I thought the ending was great

[GBGriffin]

Tazzmission wrote...

QuirkyGroundhog wrote...

Tazzmission wrote...

GBGriffin wrote...

Tazzmission wrote...

mainly because its different and not like every story out there where the hero always wins

How is it different from the Matrix or Deus Ex: HR, the two most blatantly obvious comparisons?

omg seriously i get the point you hate it fine but do you really have to ruin it for the people who enjoy it for what it is?

ive stated before i never played deus ex and i havent even seen the third matrix suprisingly


another thing im sick of seeing multiple thread son the damn topic and people need to learn that there is a stickey thread just for it

Man, I liked the ending, but it's pretty Matrix-y. In fact the whole series is basically Galactica meets the Matrix.

yea like i said its different hence why i like it

...Everything you just quoted doesn't support your claim that it's different, just fyi.

[KillSlash45]

GBGriffin wrote...

SilencedScream wrote...

The defenses that I've seen so far:
1.) "It's too mature for most of this audience."
2.) "It's fitting of the theme of Mass Effect."
3.) "You should've seen it coming."
4.) "Not everything in life is butterflies and unicorns."

None of which I find to be reasonable responses; all of these broke down into insults as they tried to defend their points.

That sums up what I've seen as well.

Well, those and people who either get off on schadenfreude, or who just can't understand or concede why people are upset because they themselves don't understand the concept of having a passion.

Holy hypocrite batman, that's a lot of hypocrite!  

[Tessara_Riventi]

tausra wrote...

Tessara_Riventi wrote...
The central theme of ME3 is atonement via death, for your own mistakes or those of others.

Mordin (for his own sins and the genophage as a whole). Thane (for his own sins, mainly), Kaidan/Ashley (if you don't save them, for Udina's sins and the Council more generally), Legion (for the mistakes of the Quarians and the Geth), Miranda (for her father's mistakes and her own), and so on. Over and over in the game we see that the only way out of terrible, destructive situations is for someone or someones to lay down their life for it.

Only Mordin, Kaiden, Udina, Anderson, Legion and Kerrahe died in my game. Not Miranda, not thane, not grunt and not Tali. Death to atone was not the theme in my Mass Effect, as only 6 people died during the course of the entire series. Do not make generalizations.

Out of curiosity, how is that Thane didn't die in your game? I'm genuinely curious, because you're the first person I've heard say that and I have no idea how you worked the plot choices to make that happen, so now I REALLY want to know! *grins*

Same with Miranda - I've yet to see a report where she isn't romanced and also doesn't die. How'd you swing that?

I don't recall suggesting Tali or Grunt die at all, so I'm curious where you got that from.

Above and beyond all of that, though, I think my point stands: even if it were just Mordin and Legion, it's fairly clear that that's a theme Bioware is playing with and working on. It's doubly so considering that the best talk-to outcomes for both Saren (in ME 1) and TIM (in 3) end with them shooting themselves to try to protect you from being killed by them. Again, death = redemption. I feel pretty confident making that a generalization, regardless of the plot details of any particular playthrough.

Modifié par Tessara_Riventi, 10 mars 2012 - 04:36 .

[Phoenix92254]

I loved the ending because it left me feeling hollow and empty, I know that sounds weird but it's the truth. I love when anything (games, movies, tv, books) make me feel something and usually the most effective emotion is sadness. So seeing Shepard and the crew separated and not even knowing where Miranda (my LI) is are all gut-wrenching but there is still hope out there. It is still following the theme so I like that as well. Do I still want BW to address the endings? Yes. Do I want DLC where Shep (in games where Shep is alive) finds the crew? Hell yes! But that ending was beautiful, emotional and raw.

[GBGriffin]

KillSlash45 wrote...

GBGriffin wrote...

SilencedScream wrote...

The defenses that I've seen so far:
1.) "It's too mature for most of this audience."
2.) "It's fitting of the theme of Mass Effect."
3.) "You should've seen it coming."
4.) "Not everything in life is butterflies and unicorns."

None of which I find to be reasonable responses; all of these broke down into insults as they tried to defend their points.

That sums up what I've seen as well.

Well, those and people who either get off on schadenfreude, or who just can't understand or concede why people are upset because they themselves don't understand the concept of having a passion.

Holy hypocrite batman, that's a lot of hypocrite!  

How so?

[JrSlackin]

3) The balls to actually end it

This comes from number 1. Regardless of some of the details, we not only got an end to the storyline, we got an end to the entire series. That my friends is called an ending, not a to be continued. They had enough balls to say "you know what, guys? we're done. and we mean done. here is how it ENDS, literally." In an industry that cops out to milk a franchise and always leaves open endings, this was an amazing breath of fresh air, and nearly masterful execution. (This third point is assuming there isn't going to be a lame DLC ending).

Let me state this by saying the large amount of hints that Bioware has been laying down in gaming magazine, sites, and even by stressing this is the end of SHEPARDS story, not the franchise.

I doubt this is the last time we see Mass Effect, and they've already begun to "milk the franchise" Darkhorse is already making more comics on the stories of the squadmates. Of course they are before all this, but still, the franchise isn't over with this.

Modifié par JrSlackin, 10 mars 2012 - 04:40 .

[Nekroso22]

Tessara_Riventi wrote...

Again, death = redemption. I feel pretty confident making that a generalization, regardless of the plot details of any particular playthrough.

Wait, you're equating Saren's (egomaniacal/insane antagonist) and TIM's (see previous) suicides with an overarching theme of "death = redemption" over the course of the entire Mass Effect saga?

How do you figure that?

[QuirkyGroundhog]

Tessara_Riventi wrote...

tausra wrote...

Tessara_Riventi wrote...
The central theme of ME3 is atonement via death, for your own mistakes or those of others.

Mordin (for his own sins and the genophage as a whole). Thane (for his own sins, mainly), Kaidan/Ashley (if you don't save them, for Udina's sins and the Council more generally), Legion (for the mistakes of the Quarians and the Geth), Miranda (for her father's mistakes and her own), and so on. Over and over in the game we see that the only way out of terrible, destructive situations is for someone or someones to lay down their life for it.

Only Mordin, Kaiden, Udina, Anderson, Legion and Kerrahe died in my game. Not Miranda, not thane, not grunt and not Tali. Death to atone was not the theme in my Mass Effect, as only 6 people died during the course of the entire series. Do not make generalizations.

Out of curiosity, how is that Thane didn't die in your game? I'm genuinely curious, because you're the first person I've heard say that and I have no idea how you worked the plot choices to make that happen, so now I REALLY want to know! *grins*

Same with Miranda - I've yet to see a report where she isn't romanced and also doesn't die. How'd you swing that?

I don't recall suggesting Tali or Grunt die at all, so I'm curious where you got that from.

Above and beyond all of that, though, I think my point stands: even if it's were just Mordin and Legion, it's fairly clear that that's a theme Bioware is playing with and working on. It's doubly so considering that the best talk-to outcomes for both Saren (in ME 1) and TIM (in 3) end with them shooting themselves to try to protect you from being killed by them. Again, death = redemption. I feel pretty confident making that a generalization, regardless of the plot details of any particular playthrough.

Miranda doesn't die if she was loyal in ME2 and you warn her about Illusive-Man's-New-Shepard-Whose-Name-I-Forget prior to when she encounters him. The idea being, I suppose, that because you warned her she's ready for him.


I was under the impression Thane always died.