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[Elishiaila]

If you think the post is too long, just read the bold parts for a summary.

There are many threads about why people hate the endings. But if we would see the same endings in a movie we would like them. If we would see them in an FPS game, we would love them. If we would see them in a Blizzard style "action RPG" junk, we would say they reached a new level of perfection. It is that good.

Most of the outcomes here makes sense. Why the Normandy crashed? Because
whoever told the story to the kid considers Shepard as the legend and
doesn't know much about the rest of the crew. So they ended up on a
distant paradise world and lived there in peace till the end of their
days type fairytale end. Nothing more nothing less.

Hey, even the kid is ok. Noone knows/remembers
how the catalyst looked like. But people understand the choice Shepard
made. They understand both options were possible, or they experience the
Synergy. How would you describe the Catalyst to a kid, if it was after
all "good"? Yes, the kid shape is good as well.

If Geth can live how would they have the story in their databases? The Catalyst would look like a Geth unit. We can continue the list. It is excellent. Better than what we have in many movies, TV shows, novels, comics, etc. Guys at Bioware have every reason to be proud of it.

But we speak an RPG by Bioware.

And for Bioware and RPG is often defined by immersion, roleplaying, and not "tactical combat and dungeon crawl with RPG elements" and they don't call treasure collecting, grave robbing, etc. as RPG elements. Their heroes are heroes, and not just mass killers and grave robbers. They don't end up at "D&D is about killing monsters and taking their trasure" with often robbing graves level.

As in a Bioware game we have story and immersion. This is why death of some old friends in Mass Effect 3 hurt. This is why we feel attached to the story. Because it becomes our story. Probably noone else made video games this close to actual roleplaying (Ok, Rockstar in their action games can be close). And probably we won't see anyone doing it in the future. Depth, immersion, etc. were the key to Biowares success.

But in an RPG it is our character, our hero, and partly our story as it is shaped by our decisions. We are happy if we can do what we would want to do. If our plans of action are implemented in the game. But we are unhappy if we hit a wall, because what we would like to do isn't implemented in the game. The bigger the consequences the bigger the impact of it. But often the show goes on, we enjoy the rest of the story and forget about how some of the choices are limited.

People who complain about ending imagined their character, the immersion was good. And they made peace with Geth. Had AI friends. Those friends were important. And the moment when Catalyst didn't recognize it, their options weren't present, they were unhappy.

And at this point people didn't want to like the rest of the ending. And it was like New Coke. They wanted to hate it, so they hated it. When Coca Cola asked people about which tastes they like, they prefered New Coke, but when they wanted to hate it, they hated it. So the ending is like New Coke.

Why the ending is special? 

Because the story doesn't move on. We don't forget about how the story deviated from our own choices. How it is different from our imagined world. We will remember how it broke immersion and how we felt it as a bad dialog.

Whats worse: We will also feel empty as the expected challenging boss fight didn't come. And at this point it is like new coke. The ending can be good or bad, but if we don't want to like it, we won't like it. Becuse the game just broke immersion.

And it will be a memory we remember and a memory that would stop us from playing the game again.

But was it the only dialog where Bioware didn't recognize our "prefered options" and immersion was a bit broken by limits? No it wasn't. Remember when we were on a Geth ship and someone opened fire? He broke several laws, threatened others. I am sure as a Spectre I would remind him how he broke laws, betrayed people, and how an admiral shouldn't do that. And if he does, he should step back. Did we have a chance to tell him this? No we didn't have the chance.

But the story moved on and we forgot about the incident. In a video game it is our best chance, unless someone patches, mods, etc. it.

But the same problem present in many other Bioware games. Yes, often we forget about it easily, but not always. Let me show you with an example about why.

In a single player game, like Mass Effect from Bioware, or GTA 4 from Rockstar, we can play a character designed by developers. Even if our choices, the alignment, the selected background, etc. we customize them. With this character our actions are somewhat predictable. So Bioware had a reason to expect we will follow their story. But our decisions changed the picture. And people complain about why the game doesn't account for those decisions and their consequences.

In a multiplayer game, or MMO it is even worse. Not only because there are many players who interacts. But because it would be silly to have many copies of same hero. So on RP servers people write their own background, think more about their own stories to make their characters unique. As each and every character should be an individual.

I also play Star Wars The Old Republic. I have a Sith Inquisitor character. Lets call her Darth Elisha. In several dialogs it is hard to select any option that would fit, and often the short text I choose and what happens in the dialog is different. And often I don't see why would Jedi attack her. With the legacy I created another Sith. This time a Warrior. While I was able to speak with a Jedi Master on Tatooine, I was unable to explain my understanding of Sith code. And in the begining being "clueless" about it (even with the legacy) didn't made much sense. If the characters are connected somehow their understanding of Sith code would be shared.

Peace is a lie, there is only passion. If you try to "remove" your emotions you will be overwhelmed by even a single one. And how if you don't have many conflicting motives, you think you are always right, you are often wrong. Through passion, I gain strength. Those goals and motives can make you focused. As you practice, train, prepare, you become stronger, wiser, smarter... Through strength, I gain power. If you are stronger, you have power to change the world, the outcome of things... Through power, I gain victory. With this you can overcome difficulties, limitations, etc. and that victory is through superiority. If you are better you won. If you cheat that is just an illusion. Through victory, my chains are broken. If you overcome your limitations, you are free to do what you have to do... The Force shall free me.

Imagine a Sith who sees the code this way. She sees wise Sith can be good leaders. And she sees how the Jedi tried to kill everyone who wanted to use the force and lead. She hears about last few wars atempted genocide against sith race as well as attempted murder of all who would follow a good code. Her determination and strength can make her rise in Sith order. For her "if a superweapon can stop a long war and can save lives, it is a good thing" is a natural way of thinking.

When Bioware made Light Side points for Sith possible, when they used the Sith code like this (it was first introduced to SW story in a Bioware game), etc. they had to prepare for Light Side Sith. Yet, the game is often unprepared for that. And we heard comments about these limits as well. But it is a problem because individual characters can have different choices, different stories.

In a tabletop RPG the DM would have to improvise, to save immersion. And this option isn't there for Bioware. Here we have to wait for mods, patches, DLC. It doesn't mean the game is bad. But it means we surprised Bioware. You could say: "But our choice is logical". You might even decide it is hard to understand why they haven't touched some ideas. They haven't prepared for our ideas because they were focused on their story. And their vision is implemented well. But we want something else. And they can't just provide it as they can't change the story on the fly. You can't change it either. You can't improvise.

Lead witter for ME 3 also works on comics. The story would make a nice comic. But it doesn't account for different characters, their decisions, etc. and can break immersion. Simply Bioware haven't explored enough different characters and options. And we run into limits.

I am sure you can see the same issue elsewhere as well. In Mass Effect 3 they thought only about their version of Shapard, about their vision. Even with Paragon / Renegade choices, endings, etc. it was focused on that single vision and single story. But the game let us build a different Shepard with different story. A few more options would be different. In SWTOR we have a few possible visions for classes. But come on, why each and every Sith Inquisitor has Zash as their master? 

If two of them meets in a Cantina how can they discuss their stories? 

In Mass Effect 3 we had no exploration, the planets were small, and we only had "somewhat important systems". It made the universe small. Even if Shepard spoke about how big he galaxy is it wasn't. Even the citadel was small, compared to earlier games, and we hit the walls often. We had no chance to revisit some places we liked, and much less to show some important places to our companions. We were disconnected from the past, because Bioware only opened a very narrow road from us.

Bioware was afraid to reuse well known locations, but I think many of us would love that. It would be possible to have proceduraly generated exploration content, proceduraly generated "fetch this" side missions, some sandbox mode at end. And of course it would be possible to have a toolbox. I am not sure if it is possible to download user created content to consoles (like DLCs) or not... But maybe it is possible.

Maybe even a store similar to AppStore could be implemented where user created content can be rated and sold, in addition to real DLC (Premium Bioware modules) and an extended universe is possible. Yes: In a such store Bioware and EA would make money from user created content. For a follow up the universe can be turned into "supervised sandbox PVE MMO", yet they decided to narrow our choices down. And in the end we had no time to forget about how disappointing railroading can be.

So please Bioware, you created NeverWinter Nights. In Mass Effect 1-2 we explored planets, the citadel was big. Please, please move away from Railroading. Instead of narrowing down the path and make a linear story focused on single vision give back the freedom we enjoyed in most of your games.

We don't want Bethesda crap. Where the story doesn't make sense, because NPCs don't remember what have you done, because you have a storyless freedom. In those games we can just try to put pieces of a puzzle together in random order in a static world, where the same people would want to execute us one day, but without learning anything about us, they celebrate us as heroes next day.

We want a world with ongoing story, that leads us in a way. Yet we want freedom to roleplay our own character. Even if (s)he is our our Shepard. We seen how you can make that happen. How it can improve. How toolset, DM client, community created content (CEP for NWN), etc. can work. Please provide that quality, not some dumbed down game with railroading.

For a while we enjoyed the game anyway, because we loved some of the story, and because in the begining railroading wasn't an issue. But in the end it didn't work. And in the ending we didn't even wanted to love it anymore. When I started to replay it and had no motivation to love the game, the first thing I noticed how small the Citadel is. If I don't want to love I won't love it. As I remember we seen bigger areas.

And nothing stoped you from letting us revisit some areas. Nothing stoped you from reusing some content in addition to creating new one. With that we would have a longer game and more bank for our buck.

[John Locke N7]

i read the bold portions and the "we dont want bethesda crap"

here the thing. games are about having FUN. story be damned. bioware tryed a unfun game with good story and cinmatics. that was ME2, and that sucked. ME 3s gameplay IS good. sure you dont get to do cool stuff like in ME1, but when ME2 came out the game was changed forever.

we'll never get the same feeling we got in ME1. Hell ME 3 is completely different in feel from ME 1 AND 2.

Mass effect 1, 2, and 3 are different beasts, so.

i hope that post i just did was relevent to what you wrote =0, again i only read small parts of it...

[MedhiaNox]

The most important thing I believe you said - was that you reminded the gaming community of Neverwinter NIghts.

I believe that game (Neverwinter Nights) - with it's Toolset and DM/Player Clients - to be the only RPG ever created for the computer. I believe the toolset, DM/Player client model was before its time - and should be the future of gaming in general, not just RPG gaming.

All other CRPGS are just advanced "Choose Your Own Adventures" and taken in that light - Bioware's are very good.

[Elishiaila]

John Locke N7 wrote...

here the thing. games are about having FUN. story be damned. bioware tryed a unfun game with good story and cinmatics. that was ME2, and that sucked. ME 3s gameplay IS good. sure you dont get to do cool stuff like in ME1, but when ME2 came out the game was changed forever.

I see why you say the gameplay is fun in many cases, but I also see why many people prefer ME 2. I think the key is, people define fun in different terms.

For some: Getting better and better in same game, same levels, etc. is fun. They can play sports games, shooters, puzzle games, etc.

For yet others it is fun to create things. I am sure Tycoon fans call OpenTTD fun. Yet, we can't turn every game into OpenTTD. Or I can even name Sims as their source of fun

A roleplaying game the source of fun should be tied to immersion, freedom and the story of their characters.

"Stealth run in some direction to level up" won't be fun  Random linear missions won't be fun. But railroading, with otherwise good gameplay and a decent story isn't much fun either.

[Elishiaila]

MedhiaNox wrote...

The most important thing I believe you said - was that you reminded the gaming community of Neverwinter NIghts.

I tried to remind Bioware too.  Maybe they understand and we get something similar.

[Elishiaila]

Some people suggest we might get alternate endings. Not sure how will that look like. We shall see.

[lasertank]

Great post. *BUMP*

[Elishiaila]

lasertank wrote...

Great post. *BUMP*

If I remember correctly you liked my DLC proposal post as well  

[lasertank]

Yeah I do.
May I suggest you to post this article onto the game review thread? Or one of those mega threads. So more people or even Bioware staff can see it someday. Your posts are all very productive, but they can be flooded away at this point.

[Elishiaila]

Well, I can try that, but technically it isn't my review of the game (yet). I tried to create a short URL of it, and tried to send that to Bioware staff using twitter, I might try the same with a facebook post, etc. as well. So I don't want to create an off topic post that would get burried several pages deep in a review thread with no bumping, as it would be harder for them to notice

I promise I will write a review as well, and place that in review thread and we will have a link to this thread in that

Hey I can even put the link in my signature

[Elishiaila]

lastertank: As a seemingly off topic question: Do you have an SWTOR account? Because I am almost sure the endings "can be turned into SWTOR" storyline missions.

[lasertank]

Elishiaila wrote...

lastertank: As a seemingly off topic question: Do you have an SWTOR account? Because I am almost sure the endings "can be turned into SWTOR" storyline missions.

Sorry I don't have one. I may never have one due to this event....

[Johnny_Cheung]

FOR the linear places, i seriously suggested it is a ploy to install different kinds of DLCs to rekindle us of old places...

moreover, where is the heck of plantery exploration system- like visiting different parts of Tuchanka!? It doesn't sounds right.

[Elishiaila]

lasertank wrote...

Sorry I don't have one. I may never have one due to this event....

I see. I would just play an experiment, about how ME3 ending can be turned into SWTOR content... You would laugh a lot  

[SSVDisappoint]

I agree with your post specifically with the points about immersion/escapism elements making this a little more painful. I do however disagree with your bad mouthing of Bethesda Fallout NV had a great ending and an equally great epilogue.

[Elishiaila]

SSVDisappoint wrote...

I agree with your post specifically with the points about immersion/escapism elements making this a little more painful. I do however disagree with your bad mouthing of Bethesda Fallout NV had a great ending and an equally great epilogue.

Immersion isn't only about ending. And how their stories in several games have no structure, and they don't make sense is the key issue here.

[SSVDisappoint]

Well either way good post!.

[sorentoft]

John Locke N7 wrote...

i read the bold portions and the "we dont want bethesda crap"

here the thing. games are about having FUN. story be damned. bioware tryed a unfun game with good story and cinmatics. that was ME2, and that sucked. ME 3s gameplay IS good. sure you dont get to do cool stuff like in ME1, but when ME2 came out the game was changed forever.

we'll never get the same feeling we got in ME1. Hell ME 3 is completely different in feel from ME 1 AND 2.

Mass effect 1, 2, and 3 are different beasts, so.

i hope that post i just did was relevent to what you wrote =0, again i only read small parts of it...

ME2 was awesome. For me story is the most defining factor of fun, if the story is stupid I won't bother with a campaign, thus the product loose value.

[hawat333]

I agree on some points, and disagree on some others, but I already elaborated my opinion in the reviews topic so I won't get all the space here.
But a strong point I didn't mentioned before: The lack of a challenging boss fight: There was one. It was a fight of ideas, it was a battle fought by words and not guns. I liked it very much.

Anyway, it was a good read, I like when people come up with organized thoughts and not just yellng "this is BS". This kind of criticism is productive in the long run.

[Elishiaila]

hawat333: You speak about a conflict of ideas. That kind of conflict is present, for example, in the Sith culture if you like Star Wars. But to make the conflict of ideas happen, you should be free to "fight it out" and vouch for cooperation. If you can't even present your idea (even if noone would care) it isn't a fight of ideas.

[Ice Cold J]

I agree.

It's not SOO much that the ending was terrible, but given what was leading up to it and the grand design we were seemingly promised, it seemed a bit of a copout.

Let's see the Krogan people rise. Let's see the Quarians building the homeworld. Let's see the Asari rebuilding Thessia.

Let's see the Rachni establishing themselves. Let's see our ME2 squadmates setting off on other adventures.

Let's see all these "choices" we were told were so important be relflected in the epilogue.

Again, I think we're being slightly unfair to them b/c they're Bioware, and our standard for them has become SO high. But, when we invest so much time and effort into a product, can we really be blamed if we become frustrated that it doesn't live up to our expectations?

[Dreogan]

You could've torn a lot of that away by going into detail on the reader-writer contract. I agree with what you're saying; we agree to certain things when we pick up Bioware's "book". When Bioware crosses a certain line (not providing closure, having characters act out of character) our belief in the universe shatters-- which is exactly what happened in the last 10 minutes. This is when we start seeing so many people rejecting what the Catalyst says, why we see people writing their own endings, and why people consider the trilogy tainted.

Modifié par Dreogan, 10 mars 2012 - 09:49 .

[John Locke N7]

Elishiaila wrote...

John Locke N7 wrote...

here the thing. games are about having FUN. story be damned. bioware tryed a unfun game with good story and cinmatics. that was ME2, and that sucked. ME 3s gameplay IS good. sure you dont get to do cool stuff like in ME1, but when ME2 came out the game was changed forever.

I see why you say the gameplay is fun in many cases, but I also see why many people prefer ME 2. I think the key is, people define fun in different terms.

For some: Getting better and better in same game, same levels, etc. is fun. They can play sports games, shooters, puzzle games, etc.

For yet others it is fun to create things. I am sure Tycoon fans call OpenTTD fun. Yet, we can't turn every game into OpenTTD. Or I can even name Sims as their source of fun

A roleplaying game the source of fun should be tied to immersion, freedom and the story of their characters.

"Stealth run in some direction to level up" won't be fun  Random linear missions won't be fun. But railroading, with otherwise good gameplay and a decent story isn't much fun either.

a roleplayering game to me, isnt an interactive movie.... its still a game where the characters SKILL CHOICE, is important to playing a role, not his STORY motivational choices. Its ALL about gameplay when it comes to a game.

david jaffe would be pissed at you =0

[Elishiaila]

Skill choice you have in tactical wargaming too, immersion is the defining factor for roleplaying.

[Elishiaila]

And immersion makes the game "Our story" and it is why the "their story, their art, their ending" defense of Bioware won't work.