59 réponses à ce sujet

[Elishiaila]

Luc0s wrote...

Elishiaila wrote...

And immersion makes the game "Our story" and it is why the "their story, their art, their ending" defense of Bioware won't work.

Not true.

Immersion only means that story, game or movie is engaging. It has nothing to do with "our story". A Call of Duty game can just be as immersive as Mass Effect, if you're into that sort of games.

The moment it is immersive you become part of story, the actions of lead character will be your actions and it will be your story. Even in an FPS.

You are pretty quick (even in your own thread) to explain everyone is stupid because you don't even agree with 1+1=2. I fear it isn't about lack of understanding on your part. It is about how you try to provoke flame wars.

[hanshotfirs]

"When Bioware made Light Side points for Sith possible, when they used
the Sith code like this (it was first introduced to SW story in a
Bioware game), etc. they had to prepare for Light Side Sith. Yet, the
game is often unprepared for that. And we heard comments about these
limits as well. But it is a problem because individual characters can have different choices, different stories.

In a tabletop RPG the DM would have to improvise, to save immersion. And
this option isn't there for Bioware. Here we have to wait for mods,
patches, DLC. It doesn't mean the game is bad. But it means we surprised Bioware. You
could say: "But our choice is logical". You might even decide it is
hard to understand why they haven't touched some ideas. They haven't
prepared for our ideas because they were focused on their story. And their vision is implemented well. But we want something else. And they can't just provide it as they can't change the story on the fly. You can't change it either. You can't improvise. "

I think that, right there, is exactly what happened. We suprised Bioware with how deeply we care for our characters and our teammates. I use "OUR" as opposed to "Shepard's" because we BECAME our Shepard. It's not just an avatar of us, IT IS US.

This deserves a lot of attention. Yes, it's a long post, but who care? Everything in it is a quality point.

Thank you!

[Elishiaila]

hanshotfirs wrote...

I think that, right there, is exactly what happened. We suprised Bioware with how deeply we care for our characters and our teammates. I use "OUR" as opposed to "Shepard's" because we BECAME our Shepard. It's not just an avatar of us, IT IS US.

This deserves a lot of attention. Yes, it's a long post, but who care? Everything in it is a quality point.

Thank you!

I tend to play tabletop RPGs a lot, so for me this point was pretty natural. When I have reviewed the game on kalandmester.com, I had to mention the difference between such rpgs and mass effect.

Sadly as I don't think if Google Translate could help with hungarian text (I seen quite a lot of translation errors from it) I think linking that article would be pointless. 

[Elishiaila]

Stay away from this topic please, I don't need your flaming and trolling here.

For you: Catalyst interacts with Crucible. It is prepared to react to it. It reacts to it somehow. Yet you claim both are designed without being aware of the design of other.

You claim: Immersion is how *you* feel to be main hero of a story, yet you claim you don't become part of it. You contradict yourself and all known lore and throw insults at the same time. That behavior isn't needed here.

[Elishiaila]

Luc0s: Good luck with your report. In all your arguments on all threads you are consistently persistently offensive.

The "you feel you are the hero, but that doesn't mean you are the hero because I say in movies you feel you are the hero, so you are dumb" type offensive stuff from you is flaming. And as I said this topic is for intelligent discussion and not that kind of nonsense.

[Elishiaila]

Luc0s wrote...

Anyway, I'm TRYING to have an intelligent discussion with you Elishiala, but you honestly make that pretty much impossible.

How strange. Most people managed to understand well these topics. Yet you call everyone strawman, wrong, etc. attack everyone on sight and post "You feel the hero is you but that means you don't feel the hero is you so you are stupid" type empty flamebait.

Modifié par Elishiaila, 01 avril 2012 - 07:12 .

[Elishiaila]

Luc0s wrote...

Who is "everyone"? You? Just you = "everyone"?

I understand you perfectly fine, I just think you're wrong. I explained why I think you're wrong without any insults. I never said "you're dumb" or anything like that. You keep falsely acussing me of this. That's not very nice.

Yes, others agreed here, seen the points, and you attack with "Just you = "everyone". Ohh, you do no such stuff, right?

You tend to call "strawman" and other nice words. Ohh, I haven't said you are dumb. I just called you a brainless unintelligent thing. Right. Not more, not less. How many timey you did that in these topics to different people? Ohh. You can't remember right? It only happened a few places here, and in the other thread.

So. You just by pure accident you not only attack with nonsense in another topic, but without visiting a place where they are linked, you find an old topic to resurrect. And on a point everyone agreed you keep to bring your usual insults here. No, you didn't check my profile. You just accidentally ended up on page #43 and suddenly you found how you disagree. Right? No stalking or harrashment. Just miracle.

Wait, there are other miracles in your argumet, right? You say Crucible isn't reaper stuff.

Yet...

Catalyst is known to be reaper stuff. And it is designed to work with Crucible. So by miracle designers of cataclyst time traveled to understand the crucible and make catalyst run on top of that hardware, and with this miracle of time travel you can compare others to strawman and throw such comments repeatedly and treat them as stupid.

Such miracles can happen...

... or you are a troll. And even for that, a bad one.

[Elishiaila]

Luc0s wrote...

The Catalys IS NOT designed to work with the Crucible. The Crucible is designed to work with the Catalyst. HUGE difference.

Yeah, sure... You say:

• Catalyst isn't designed to recognize Crucible, yet even if it is just an energy source it suddenly reacts to it by changing its functions.
• Not only it reacts to an Energy source, It recognizes it as a condition that tells cycle isn't sufficient / isn't good for no reason.
• Crucible is made while no other civilizations reached or seen the Catalyst, so they don't know how it woks. Yet they managed to build a device that interacts with it.
• People were unaware about how Catalyst works. Yet, they designed an energy source for it
• Not only they don't know what the Catalyst does, yet they think it helps a weapon. Noone knows its purpose, its functions, etc. but they believe. Without reaper lies.
• Reapers maintain a cycle of their design, and yet they let us to discover Crucible. Repeatedly. They have means to find and destroy the plan, yet they preserve it.
• We ignore that Reaper tech is normally just recognized as tech from previous cycle. Such similarity doesn't matter.

I say:

• Catalyst and Reapers maintain a cycle. Catalyst is programmed to abort the cycle in predesigned way if a specific item is present.
• Discovery of that item (Crucible) is part of the cycle. Even its purpose is known. It is know that Crucible can stop the Reapers.
• As it isn't a weapon but an energy source required for specific functions Reapers have reasons to leave it behind.
• As with all other reaper tech later civilizations think they inherit it from previous cycles and "imporove" it. So same speculation surrounds this piece.

I am sure most people can see the difference between two arguments. Hint. The later makes sense.

[Elishiaila]

Luc0s wrote...] Your headcanon/fanon doesn't make any more sense than the actual canon of ME3. Lets just face it: ME3's story is crap and full with plot holes and no amount of headcanon can fix this horrible mess.

Wrong. While there are smaller or bigger issues that might break immersion for moments, it is easy to understand most of the story if you are willing to understand. If you only want to flame, it is a different story.

[Leftyguy]

Modifié par Leftyguy, 03 avril 2012 - 08:13 .

[Leftyguy]

Leftyguy wrote...

Whoops, wrong topic. Ignore this post.

[Stanley Woo]

Luc0s, Elishiaila, take it to private or IM, please. Or you can agree to disagree here.

[Ibecomedeath]

I'll admit, I skimmed the OP...

I'll just say this though, the ending being so detached from the rest of the story quite literally destroyed my immersion in the story as of that moment...

The 150+ hours of my life I (quite willing and enjoyably) lost playing the ME trilogy, becoming completely immersed in what could be argued is the best scripted sci-fi game to date, was completely negated in 10 minutes by the complete about face in scripting quality at the end...

Modifié par Ibecomedeath, 03 avril 2012 - 11:18 .

[Wowlock]

Short summary ? I wouldn't play the game if it was just another Space Marina Shooter with a linear story.

Sure you can say the story itself was quite opposite of linear and thats why people LOVED IT. It got amazing popularity because it was a game where you could literally SHAPE the story to your own way in the boundries of the main theme.

But the ending was ANYTHING but that. It was as bad as COD games' endings... where no matter what you do, you get the same ending and the things you do before won't matter for a thing.

No one denies that we spend amazing hours in the game but our end goal was to get the ending we worked so hard to reach after 3 FULL games with HUNDREDS of choices. We wanted to see how the characters, races , romances and worlds WE CARE ABOUT ( yes I point out this ) would turn out in the end. How our choices would SHAPE the Mass Effect universe.

In the end, there was no Shaping. We all got stuck into the mold of ''Bleak-speculatory'' also Non-sensical ending with some tiny tweaks that suppose to be ''different '' endings (?) where all we wanted was a strong epilogue and a conclusion for our choices.....

And no, I don't believe any ME game comes after this ending can save the story from suicide unless the ending gets fixed.

ME was based on our decisions, choices, it WAS the Selling Point. When the ending betrayed that notion....it betrayed itself and us...

[Elishiaila]

Wowlock wrote...

And no, I don't believe any ME game comes after this ending can save the story from suicide unless the ending gets fixed.

ME was based on our decisions, choices, it WAS the Selling Point. When the ending betrayed that notion....it betrayed itself and us...

I am not perfectly sure about that. The ending breaks immersion and we don't have a chance to fix it. Sure, it is a huge issue. And once you want to see the game as bad, you will see it as bad.

As you see people question the origin of catalyst. When Catalyst is the Citadel and we know that Citadel is "reaper tech". Yes, we see Catalyst as "space kid". But if we would "Board" a Reaper ship (if they have places for hostages) and a Reaper would want to show its face with a hologram, we would have a chance to see any reaper as a "space kid".

Catalyst and "catalysis" are scientific terms, this name tells us the role of the Catalyst. It changes the world, but normally remains unchanged. We know what Sovereign is. An archived culture, and this is why its independence, sovereignty is here even if it is controlled by the Catalyst. We also understand the name Harbringer. Crucible has a meaning as well. It is a tool that helps us to shape the world, shape the cycle.

And as you see it is linked to Catalyst, it has close ties to it, so it seems to be Reaper tech.

Ability to stop the cycle if it isn't enough or it isn't needed is part of reaper design. So Destroy / Control options are probably predesigned.

We can explain our teammates on Normandy... Reapers can send them around indoctrination can do wonders. On Blue ending (trying to save everyone, including Geth, Reapers, etc) and preserving relays the kid asking about space travel is the worst problem.