397 réponses à ce sujet

[spychi]

Sharkey1337 wrote...

Hm, idk I kinda prefer the current endings to the Dark Energy ending, simply as it stuck more closely to the theme of synthetics vs organics, which the Geth vs Quarian war embodied.

Yeah it doesn't make sense and it narrows the game to two endings... and yeah I know we have three ****ty endings right now

Dark Energy? really? there wouldn't be much of a Reaper purpose in it ... why they would harvest organic life then? it really doesn't make sense

The Tech singularity has alot of more reasons and possibilites in developing the story

[ReachEtaruN74]

ReachEtaruN74 wrote...

ReachEtaruN74 wrote...



The conversation between Tali, Shepard, and Kal'Reegar establishes the danger/importance of dark energy.
3:20
Shepard: "What does that dark energy buildup mean? Is it something we should worry about?"
3:26
Tali: "Hopefully it's an isolated, some rare phenomenon. If dark energy can destabilize solar material..."
Tali: "Probably not something to worry about now, but resources are scarce enough in the galaxy without stars suddenly going dead."

This is foreshadowing as it seems to have no direct connection to anything else. Otherwise it would be pointless banter. Pointless banter doesn't have galaxy wide implications.

Also it would make sense for the geth following the Reapers to be researching the data on that star if the Reapers were looking for a way to stop the buildup of dark energy. Unfortunately, you don't really get to ever ask the geth following the Reapers about this as the only opportunity for this would have been in Mass Effect 3.

now back to the topic at hand, the reason the dark energy ending fits where the current ending does not is because it allows for the reapers to maintain their unknowability and it presents an actual moral dilemma at the conclusion.
On top of these, it provides the casual RPGer with a sense of accomplishment and completion while giving the hard core RPGer the sense of reality that the impending doom of the galaxy provides.

It maintains the Reaper's unknowability because, if they have been around for millions of years and haven't been able to solve the problem, it must at some level be beyond comprehension while the framework (basic concept) is understandable which allows for the moral dilemma.
The moral dilemma is that the Reapers may be the only hope for the galaxy's continued existance but at the cost of countless lives (end justifies the means--Renegade) or you can destroy the Reapers and hope that the combined minds of the organic species can solve the problem (lesser of two evils--paragon).

This is assuming there is not some random "all the relays blow up" falacy.

[Malachite73]

Logan Cloud wrote...

Malachite73 wrote...

ReachEtaruN74 wrote...

Malachite73 wrote...

He was in a forum earlier debating that the dark energy ending is in no way hinted at in the previous games. He doesn't think the IGN article is legitimate, so I can only assume he has come here to troll.

I figured as much. It's obvious that such a question posed in a "prove it" format is only meant to be combative and in no way constructive.

Yeah, here is the old forum:

http://social.biowar...33958/3#9737592

He just wants to argue.  He gets to make up what can be used as facts, so you'll never win.

Don't feed the trolls people.

See, now I'm confused. He asked a question, it wasn't answered... So he's trolling now? Lolwut?
And I agree that the Dark Energy crap isn't all that relevant. Not once have I heard it mentioned in a conversation.

*Deep breath* okay, he is trolling because of the fact he is going to threads about this topic merely to stur an argument.

The dark energy is mentioned in codex a few times, as well as by Tali during the Haestrom mission.

The IGN article at the top of this thread was posted about 2 years ago, and shows that starting with ME3 they decided to change the ending they had planned since 1.  You don't have to like the dark energy ending, but since the orignal writers thought of it, we can at least say it was where the series was headed.

And its all about execution.  The new ending could have worked if they hadn't thrown it in our face in the last 5 minutes.  It felt like it came from nowhere and gave no choice.

[ReachEtaruN74]

spychi wrote...

Sharkey1337 wrote...

Hm, idk I kinda prefer the current endings to the Dark Energy ending, simply as it stuck more closely to the theme of synthetics vs organics, which the Geth vs Quarian war embodied.

Yeah it doesn't make sense and it narrows the game to two endings... and yeah I know we have three ****ty endings right now

Dark Energy? really? there wouldn't be much of a Reaper purpose in it ... why they would harvest organic life then? it really doesn't make sense

The Tech singularity has alot of more reasons and possibilites in developing the story

The concept behind the Dark Energy ending is that dark energy will eventually consume the universe and the reapers are attempting to stop it and preserve the universe.
The harvesting would serve two purposes.
     1. Removing the organic life that likely speeds up the buildup of Dark Energy (probably from the excessive use of the mass relays--on a side note, this is probably why the reapers spend so much time in dark space and in hibernation as they have massive mass effect cores)
     2. Finding species that they think can help them in the search for the "cure."
The geth / quarian struggle actually disproves the theory that is put out at the end of ME3 as the crux of the big moral dilemma. If synthetics were destined to inevitably seek out conflict with organics, than Legion's mission in ME3 where records revealing that the only reason that the geth were engaged in conflict was because of the creators's constant attempts at genocide against the geth (and also the manipulation by sovreign).

[Zhor2395]

personally the dark energy angle works with the mysterious nature of the reapers. scientifically what we know about dark energy fits in a pudding cup, and the reapers could and should have been stopping or aiding the dark energy, not being the servants of some synthophobic energy brat

[NomadDC]

Agreed, original plot made sense at least, and there was an acceptable ending where Shep destroyed reapers, and all rest are still alive, no Mass relays and citadel exploading ****, etc.. New plot compared to this is just too grim and sucky.

Vote here http://social.biowar...63/polls/29166/ 

Modifié par NomadDC, 10 mars 2012 - 10:44 .

[ChopyChopZ]

That ending would still be full of it if The Normandy and its crew got stuck on some remote planet and ended it like that...

[Holoe4]

I agree, the original intentions of the Reapers would have been much better.

I still miss seeing them as an all powerful and evil threat to the galaxy though.... :/

[ReachEtaruN74]

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

ReachEtaruN74 wrote...

Apparently, there was already a forum that you posed this question to. On this forum, they generously attempted to answer your question and you just were contrary... or do I need to "prove" that?
As I said, this forum isn't about the validity of whether it is or isn't the "real" ending. It is about the pros and cons of the available options. ... I should keep track of how many times I have said this.

That other reply was to the other fellow.

And since you've finally explained the meaning of this thread:

Pros of "original" ending: Likely better than the one we have now, at least in the sense that people will have their happy endings.
I'm really not too sure about the pros of this one, perhaps you could enlighten me.

Cons: Makes no sense whatsoever from what has happened in the game; it has been referenced less than five times actively in the game; there's absolutely no real explanation for how organic life causes "dark energy"


Pros of used ending: Most realistic. Let's face it, we shouldn't have been able to beat the Reapers in the first place. Thus, endings that have the galaxy in a weaker state are going to be the most realistic.

Cons: Absolutely craps all over the idea of player choice. Very very bad move.

The current ending:

ReachEtaruN74 wrote...

The current ending is defined by a
moral dilemma which the course of gameplay can prove to be incorrect.
The catalyst says that conflict between synthetic and organic is
inevitable because (and this is the important part) the synthetics must
realize their superiority and cast down the inferior organics.
Based
off a paragon playthrough (i have not yet finished a renegade
playthrough) the geth have always wanted peace with the creators
(quarians) but have been unable to even pursue the option because the
creators have forced them into conflict at every turn.
After a
successful (paragon) resolution, even with the immense superiority that
(as defined by the catalyst) must cause conflict, the geth instead find
creative ways to assist the quarians. This is an impossible situation by
the catalyst's logic. Thus the "deep moral dilemma" of the current
ending is moot.

Also, relays cannot go from being the most
destructive force in the galaxy (even surpassing Reapers) when they
explode in Arrival to harmlessly disassembling themselves at the end of
3. They are destroyed, not disassembled. The destruction of the relays
(of which the citadel is among them if you remember) would be absolutely
devastating to the entire galaxy.

The lore does not fit for this to be the original ending. It feels forced, rushed and unnatural.

^ I can elaborate on my issues with the current ending if necessary as this is only a short list of the most pertinent issues.

The "original" ending:

ReachEtaruN74 wrote...

ReachEtaruN74 wrote...

ReachEtaruN74 wrote...



The conversation between Tali, Shepard, and Kal'Reegar establishes the danger/importance of dark energy.
3:20
Shepard: "What does that dark energy buildup mean? Is it something we should worry about?"
3:26
Tali: "Hopefully it's an isolated, some rare phenomenon. If dark energy can destabilize solar material..."
Tali:
"Probably not something to worry about now, but resources are scarce
enough in the galaxy without stars suddenly going dead."

This is
foreshadowing as it seems to have no direct connection to anything else.
Otherwise it would be pointless banter. Pointless banter doesn't have
galaxy wide implications.

Also it would make sense for the geth
following the Reapers to be researching the data on that star if the
Reapers were looking for a way to stop the buildup of dark energy.
Unfortunately, you don't really get to ever ask the geth following the
Reapers about this as the only opportunity for this would have been in
Mass Effect 3.

the reason the dark energy ending fits where the current ending
does not is because it allows for the reapers to maintain their
unknowability and it presents an actual moral dilemma at the conclusion.
On
top of these, it provides the casual RPGer with a sense of
accomplishment and completion while giving the hard core RPGer the sense
of reality that the impending doom of the galaxy provides.

It
maintains the Reaper's unknowability because, if they have been around
for millions of years and haven't been able to solve the problem, it
must at some level be beyond comprehension while the framework (basic
concept) is understandable which allows for the moral dilemma.
The
moral dilemma is that the Reapers may be the only hope for the galaxy's
continued existance but at the cost of countless lives (end justifies
the means--Renegade) or you can destroy the Reapers and hope that the
combined minds of the organic species can solve the problem (lesser of
two evils--paragon).

This is assuming there is not some random "all the relays blow up" falacy.

ReachEtaruN74 wrote...

The
concept behind the Dark Energy ending is that dark energy will
eventually consume the universe and the reapers are attempting to stop
it and preserve the universe.
The harvesting would serve two purposes.
    
1. Removing the organic life that likely speeds up the buildup of Dark
Energy (probably from the excessive use of the mass relays--on a side
note, this is probably why the reapers spend so much time in dark space
and in hibernation as they have massive mass effect cores)
     2. Finding species that they think can help them in the search for the "cure."
The
geth / quarian struggle actually disproves the theory that is put out
at the end of ME3 as the crux of the big moral dilemma. If synthetics
were destined to inevitably seek out conflict with organics, than
Legion's mission in ME3 where records revealing that the only reason
that the geth were engaged in conflict was because of the creators's
constant attempts at genocide against the geth (and also the
manipulation by sovreign) would be an impossiblity.

Modifié par ReachEtaruN74, 10 mars 2012 - 10:46 .

[luzburg]

the endin has to be rewriten to the dark energy one. they dont have to scratch the entire game to do it. hmmmmmm maybe this ending is the NG+ secret ending

Modifié par luzburg, 10 mars 2012 - 10:48 .

[Malachite73]

Logan Cloud wrote...

Malachite73 wrote...

Logan Cloud wrote...

Malachite73 wrote...

ReachEtaruN74 wrote...

Malachite73 wrote...

He was in a forum earlier debating that the dark energy ending is in no way hinted at in the previous games. He doesn't think the IGN article is legitimate, so I can only assume he has come here to troll.

I figured as much. It's obvious that such a question posed in a "prove it" format is only meant to be combative and in no way constructive.

Yeah, here is the old forum:

http://social.biowar...33958/3#9737592

He just wants to argue.  He gets to make up what can be used as facts, so you'll never win.

Don't feed the trolls people.

See, now I'm confused. He asked a question, it wasn't answered... So he's trolling now? Lolwut?
And I agree that the Dark Energy crap isn't all that relevant. Not once have I heard it mentioned in a conversation.

*Deep breath* okay, he is trolling because of the fact he is going to threads about this topic merely to stur an argument.

The dark energy is mentioned in codex a few times, as well as by Tali during the Haestrom mission.

The IGN article at the top of this thread was posted about 2 years ago, and shows that starting with ME3 they decided to change the ending they had planned since 1.  You don't have to like the dark energy ending, but since the orignal writers thought of it, we can at least say it was where the series was headed.

And its all about execution.  The new ending could have worked if they hadn't thrown it in our face in the last 5 minutes.  It felt like it came from nowhere and gave no choice.

Something that was mentioned 3 times in 90+ hours of gameplay doesn't seem like something that would make a good ending. Maybe that's just me. *Shrug*

No, I understand if you think it was a small thing, but that doesn't mean it wasn't the original direciton of the game.  The Collectors are never mentioned in one, yet become the main villian in two.  This time around they wanted to hint at the final conflict without drawing so much attention you would know for sure.  Same with Cerberus, they ended up being a huge villain in two and three, but where only a little in the first game (like 2 quests I think)... you had to read codexes and what not to really learn anything about Cerberus in one.

[NomadDC]

Yeah, lots of bull*hit in new plot, that doesn't make any sense, and old plot fitting story almost perfectly. Bioware should release patch/free dlc to put it back.

Vote here 
http://social.biowar...63/polls/29166/

Modifié par NomadDC, 10 mars 2012 - 10:48 .

[hismastersvoice]

Logan Cloud wrote...
Something that was mentioned 3 times in 90+ hours of gameplay doesn't seem like something that would make a good ending. Maybe that's just me. *Shrug*

That's three times more than the god brat though...

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

However, there's no logic behind "dark energy" being caused by organics, so it ultimately fails.

Unless utilizing mass effect casues the buildup of dark energy.

Modifié par hismastersvoice, 10 mars 2012 - 10:50 .

[ReachEtaruN74]

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

ReachEtaruN74 wrote...

now back to the topic at hand, the reason the dark energy ending fits where the current ending does not is because it allows for the reapers to maintain their unknowability and it presents an actual moral dilemma at the conclusion.
On top of these, it provides the casual RPGer with a sense of accomplishment and completion while giving the hard core RPGer the sense of reality that the impending doom of the galaxy provides.

It maintains the Reaper's unknowability because, if they have been around for millions of years and haven't been able to solve the problem, it must at some level be beyond comprehension while the framework (basic concept) is understandable which allows for the moral dilemma.
The moral dilemma is that the Reapers may be the only hope for the galaxy's continued existance but at the cost of countless lives (end justifies the means--Renegade) or you can destroy the Reapers and hope that the combined minds of the organic species can solve the problem (lesser of two evils--paragon).

This is assuming there is not some random "all the relays blow up" falacy.

The bolded is gibberish, weaknesses do not maintain "unknowablilty," they destroy it.

But I like the moral delimma you've set up there.

However, there's no logic behind "dark energy" being caused by organics, so it ultimately fails.

ReachEtaruN74 wrote...

spychi wrote...

Sharkey1337 wrote...

Hm,
idk I kinda prefer the current endings to the Dark Energy ending,
simply as it stuck more closely to the theme of synthetics vs organics,
which the Geth vs Quarian war embodied.

Yeah it doesn't make sense and it narrows the game to two endings... and yeah I know we have three ****ty endings right now

Dark
Energy? really? there wouldn't be much of a Reaper purpose in it ...
why they would harvest organic life then? it really doesn't make sense

The Tech singularity has alot of more reasons and possibilites in developing the story

The
concept behind the Dark Energy ending is that dark energy will
eventually consume the universe and the reapers are attempting to stop
it and preserve the universe.
The harvesting would serve two purposes.
    
1. Removing the organic life that likely speeds up the buildup of Dark
Energy (probably from the excessive use of the mass relays--on a side
note, this is probably why the reapers spend so much time in dark space
and in hibernation as they have massive mass effect cores)
     2. Finding species that they think can help them in the search for the "cure."
The
geth / quarian struggle actually disproves the theory that is put out
at the end of ME3 as the crux of the big moral dilemma. If synthetics
were destined to inevitably seek out conflict with organics, than
Legion's mission in ME3 where records revealing that the only reason
that the geth were engaged in conflict was because of the creators's
constant attempts at genocide against the geth (and also the
manipulation by sovreign).

As for the "gibberish," if an eternal race has spent millions of years in pursuit of an answer to the dark energy problem and been unable to find a solution, then this would contribute to their "unknowability." This is because the concept must be so complex that even they cannot solve it. However, the framework of their purpose (the basic structure--trying to cure dark energy) is easily grasped by everyone. An "easier said than done" situation.

[Salty Specula]

ReachEtaruN74 wrote...

Salty Specula wrote...

 I've read the dark energy original idea... That... I don't even...

It makes even LESS sense than the atrocious ending in game now. By converting species into Reapers, it stops dark energy buildup... How? I'm apparently not intelligent enough to fill in the massive leap in logic between those two points.

Well it is never said that every species gets a Reaper. As I understand Drew's original ending, the Reapers are trying to save the universe from Dark Energy. As to how? This contributes to the Reapers's unknowability because we don't understand it and likely couldn't because we haven't even hardly touched the research (with the exception of the geth/quarians).

EDIT: Also, its isn't said that making species into Reapers *is* the cure. I think it is merely hinted that it is a means to furthering a cure--like recruiting more scientists to a study.

Seriously dude, don't even try and justify that. What a horrific piece of sensless garbage that idea is...

[ReachEtaruN74]

[quote]Salty Specula wrote...

[quote]ReachEtaruN74 wrote...

[quote]Salty Specula wrote...

 I've read the dark energy original idea... That... I don't even...

It makes even LESS sense than the atrocious ending in game now. By converting species into Reapers, it stops dark energy buildup... How? I'm apparently not intelligent enough to fill in the massive leap in logic between those two points.
[/quote]

Well it is never said that every species gets a Reaper. As I understand Drew's original ending, the Reapers are trying to save the universe from Dark Energy. As to how? This contributes to the Reapers's unknowability because we don't understand it and likely couldn't because we haven't even hardly touched the research (with the exception of the geth/quarians).

EDIT: Also, its isn't said that making species into Reapers *is* the cure. I think it is merely hinted that it is a means to furthering a cure--like recruiting more scientists to a study.

[/quote]

Seriously dude, don't even try and justify that. What a horrific piece of sensless garbage that idea is...

[/quote]

I honestly have no idea what you are talking about "justifying" or who it was directed at, but this may explain in more depth what you jumped into the middle of.

[quote]ReachEtaruN74 wrote...

[quote]ReachEtaruN74 wrote...

[quote]ReachEtaruN74 wrote...



The conversation between Tali, Shepard, and Kal'Reegar establishes the danger/importance of dark energy.
3:20
Shepard: "What does that dark energy buildup mean? Is it something we should worry about?"
3:26
Tali: "Hopefully it's an isolated, some rare phenomenon. If dark energy can destabilize solar material..."
Tali:
"Probably not something to worry about now, but resources are scarce
enough in the galaxy without stars suddenly going dead."

This is
foreshadowing as it seems to have no direct connection to anything else.
Otherwise it would be pointless banter. Pointless banter doesn't have
galaxy wide implications.

Also it would make sense for the geth
following the Reapers to be researching the data on that star if the
Reapers were looking for a way to stop the buildup of dark energy.
Unfortunately, you don't really get to ever ask the geth following the
Reapers about this as the only opportunity for this would have been in
Mass Effect 3.[/quote]

[/quote]

the reason the dark energy ending fits where the current ending
does not is because it allows for the reapers to maintain their
unknowability and it presents an actual moral dilemma at the conclusion.
On
top of these, it provides the casual RPGer with a sense of
accomplishment and completion while giving the hard core RPGer the sense
of reality that the impending doom of the galaxy provides.

It
maintains the Reaper's unknowability because, if they have been around
for millions of years and haven't been able to solve the problem, it
must at some level be beyond comprehension while the framework (basic
concept) is understandable which allows for the moral dilemma.
The
moral dilemma is that the Reapers may be the only hope for the galaxy's
continued existance but at the cost of countless lives (end justifies
the means--Renegade) or you can destroy the Reapers and hope that the
combined minds of the organic species can solve the problem (lesser of
two evils--paragon).

This is assuming there is not some random "all the relays blow up" falacy.

[/quote]

[quote]ReachEtaruN74 wrote...

The
concept behind the Dark Energy ending is that dark energy will
eventually consume the universe and the reapers are attempting to stop
it and preserve the universe.
The harvesting would serve two purposes.
    
1. Removing the organic life that likely speeds up the buildup of Dark
Energy (probably from the excessive use of the mass relays--on a side
note, this is probably why the reapers spend so much time in dark space
and in hibernation as they have massive mass effect cores)
     2. Finding species that they think can help them in the search for the "cure."
The
geth / quarian struggle actually disproves the theory that is put out
at the end of ME3 as the crux of the big moral dilemma. If synthetics
were destined to inevitably seek out conflict with organics, than
Legion's mission in ME3 where records revealing that the only reason
that the geth were engaged in conflict was because of the creators's
constant attempts at genocide against the geth (and also the
manipulation by sovreign) would be an impossiblity.

[/quote]
[/quote]

I am not saying that what the reapers is doing is good. In fact if you were to read through the rather lengthy forum, you will see that I refer to the option of choosing to let the reapers continue and giving humanity over to them as the clearly renegade option.

So please explain what is being "justified."

[Malachite73]

Seriously dude, don't even try and justify that. What a horrific piece of sensless garbage that idea is...

[/quote]

I'm not sure who you are refering to above, but the idea is as follows:

The Reapers assimilate species that might be able to help them stop the spread of dark energy.

When organic life spreads to much, the Reapers come out of hibernation, and cleanse them.  Though the Reaper's eezo cores release a lot of dark energy, it is small compared to the next 50,000 years.

Again, I don't know who you meant to respond to, but that is the best way I can explain it.

If it still doesn't make sense, I'm sure Drew and the other writers would have fleshed the idea out into something that would have been better understood.  We are only working with a few leaked paragraphs here.

[ReachEtaruN74]

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

I agree with the majority of what you say, except for this:

ReachEtaruN74 wrote...

The
concept behind the Dark Energy ending is that dark energy will
eventually consume the universe and the reapers are attempting to stop
it and preserve the universe.
The harvesting would serve two purposes.
    
1. Removing the organic life that likely speeds up the buildup of Dark
Energy (probably from the excessive use of the mass relays--on a side
note, this is probably why the reapers spend so much time in dark space
and in hibernation as they have massive mass effect cores)

If you'll recall ME1, Sovereign says that the Reapers gave us the Mass Relays, the Council. Thus, it's difficult to believe the Reapers feel that is a buildup of dark energy--why would they give it to us otherwise?

A question that would have likely been answered had Bioware actually followed the "original" story.

I can only speculate that the Mass Relays are similar to highways that although they use up a lot of "fuel," they ultimately use up less fuel than constantly traveling at "city" speeds. Since organic civilization must have risen anyway, perhaps this was the most efficient way to be able to track them down and use them to continue their search for a cure.

Basically, damage control if that makes sense.

[Gen.Veers]

Yeah the ending was quite disappointing. Would have been better if they had just left it as it was. Have just two endings: 1)Control the reapers or 2)Destroy them. And everybody lives happily ever after...the end. None of this philosophical mumbo jumbo.

The ending reminding me of what a lot of JRPGs do, and i hate that. Guess I will play the game only to maybe London/Illusive man confrontation and stop right there. Cause the ending was just too depressing after playing the story for 3 games, all for nothing. Anyway, that's my two-cents.