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What is the Catalyst? AI? I think not!


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#1
Asiant

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What is the Catalyst? Many on the forums believe that it is an AI, but a question arises that challenge the idea Catalyst proposes, which is: the created will always rebel against the creators. If the Catalyst is an AI, why does it offer choices which could end their own lives?

 I believe the catalyst is the combined mind of all the reapers, the voice of all previous organic races as a whole. It is likely that the earliest organics reached the peak of evolution (peak of organics, not life as a whole), and had developed AI. The only possible way the organics could defeat the machines was to harness the powers of their own race into a single being (a Reaper), and they succeeded in destroying their own creations.

 Being a single entity, it came to a consensus which made the 2 rules of life, thus the reason why each cycle must
be harvested to become a Reaper. HOWEVER, it is an uncertainty, as no one can predict the future. It is likely the earliest organics calculated the probability of the 2 rules happening every cycle. It is possible for peace, but it is so small that it is virtually impossible, but still a chance. Ultimately it set up a “game”. It built the relays and citadel, and also the plans for the crucible. As said in the game, the Crucible was passed down from countless cycles. The crucible’s job is to act as a final hope of the cycles, a test for the lack of a better term. It acts like a key to a safe, it unlocks that probability and gives the Catalyst realization that Organics could survive on its own. Organics was always given a choice, ever since the beginning. But no cycle was deemed worthy of that choice until Shepard’s cycle. It is implied that by building the crucible and docking it with the citadel, Shepard achieved the impossible, thus giving domination over the Catalyst, proving the Catalyst wrong. The Catalyst had no right to withhold that choice from Shepard. Which ending Shepard chooses is his/her own, that is an uncertainty, the Catalyst cannot foresee that. But whichever choice is chosen, it is a successful one.

 

1.      
Destroy: although EDI and the Geth are destroyed, Shepard has proven that organics and synthetics can coexist.

2.      
Control: Shepard takes over the Catalyst’s role as the controller, providing a backup plan if the synthetics do turn against the organics in the future.

3.      
Synthesis: by doing so, life will reach the final stage of evolution, and this entire problem will no longer be present.

 

Shepard saved the galaxy and its future one way or another

 

Although I wish it be false, but I cannot see how Bioware can come up with ME4 as a continuation of ME3. Future DLCs can only fill gaps in the storyline in ME3 (such as Omega) or add in additional closures after the endings. As for future games, I can only see prequels such as explaining the First Contact War, Rachni War, Krogan rebellion, etc. Shepard is done, the current cycle is done, Mass Effect is done!

Modifié par Asiant, 10 mars 2012 - 05:40 .


#2
Papa John0

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I'm pretty sure the Catalyst was just the Star Child from 2001: A Space Odyssey, man.

#3
Berserkuh

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How in God's name would the Reapers build a plan that would foil the Catalysts own plans when the Catalyst directly controls the Reapers?

#4
Craquehead

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Asiant wrote...

Although I wish it be false, but I cannot see how Bioware can come up with ME4 as a continuation of ME3. 


This is what I don't understand. They wrote themselves into a corner, and now they can never make a game in the ME Universe that takes place after the events of ME3.

There was so much potential there for future games. So apart from not making any sense, coming completely out of left field, and being the Lost ending they said it wouldn't be, it was a bad business decision, as well.

#5
Asiant

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Berserkuh wrote...

How in God's name would the Reapers build a plan that would foil the Catalysts own plans when the Catalyst directly controls the Reapers?


I said it in a way that the Catalyst and Reapers are one, the Catalyst is like a hive mind. Therefore the Catalyst plans are the Reapers plans, if you catch my meaning

#6
redbaron76

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They did not write themselves out of ME universe at all. They still have lots of potential. ME 4 could well be another story line on how each planet and race fared after the end of reaper war. Their struggle to rebuild their civilasations and restore contact galaxy wide. Only the relays were destroyed so there is still lot of FTL drives available. There is still lots of ships left in the galaxy and it is possible that the crew was recovered.

#7
Asiant

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redbaron76 wrote...

They did not write themselves out of ME universe at all. They still have lots of potential. ME 4 could well be another story line on how each planet and race fared after the end of reaper war. Their struggle to rebuild their civilasations and restore contact galaxy wide. Only the relays were destroyed so there is still lot of FTL drives available. There is still lots of ships left in the galaxy and it is possible that the crew was recovered.


ME can continue if Bioware only give us control and destroy, the universe is pretty much the same just without relays....but then they added synthesis. DNA of all life forms are altered. How can you create a game that satisfies both universes?

#8
Berserkuh

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They still have that quantum communication thingy that allows them to communicate galaxy-wide.

EDIT: Does anybody remember PoP: Warrior Within ? How getting to the real ending meant obtaining the Sword of Water, which was really hard btw, and how the next game came up continuing THAT ending? And everyone was like "WTF Where did this come from?! How is she still alive what how when?!" because only like 30% finished the game with the real ending.

Modifié par Berserkuh, 10 mars 2012 - 06:11 .


#9
MrChowderClam

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Asiant wrote...

I believe the catalyst is the combined mind of all the reapers, the voice of all previous organic races as a whole.

It acts like a key to a safe, it unlocks that probability and gives the Catalyst realization that Organics could survive on its own. Organics was always given a choice, ever since the beginning. But no cycle was deemed worthy of that choice until Shepard’s cycle. It is implied that by building the crucible and docking it with the citadel, Shepard achieved the impossible, thus giving domination over the Catalyst, proving the Catalyst wrong. The Catalyst had no right to withhold that choice from Shepard. Which ending Shepard chooses is his/her own, that is an uncertainty, the Catalyst cannot foresee that. But whichever choice is chosen, it is a successful one.

1.      
Destroy: although EDI and the Geth are destroyed, Shepard has proven that organics and synthetics can coexist.

2.      
Control: Shepard takes over the Catalyst’s role as the controller, providing a backup plan if the synthetics do turn against the organics in the future.

3.      
Synthesis: by doing so, life will reach the final stage of evolution, and this entire problem will no longer be present.

Shepard saved the galaxy and its future one way or another


I agree with your point on the crucible acting as "a key to the safe". I think that when the first cycle created the reapers, they realized that the "solution" of the reapers couldn't last forever. So they made plans for a device that would indicate when a cycle had finally overcome the problem or the solution. When a cycle finally was able to create and deploy the crucible, the catalyst would know that the reapers were no longer a viable solution, and that further steps would need to be taken in order to ensure continued order.

As for your first thought on the catalyst as the combined voice of the reapers - I hadn't really considered that, but it makes sense. I always assumed that it was an AI made by the original creators of the reapers, placed in order to guide life into the next stage after the reapers.

Thanks for the insights.

Modifié par MrChowderClam, 10 mars 2012 - 06:23 .


#10
Asiant

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yea if it is an AI, it creates a paradox with itself, thus why I believe it is not

#11
The_ilest

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it is obvious that there is going to be a me4 for the simple reason that in all endings the relays were destroyed. no matter what choice you made it does not affect me4. me3 =ending with no relays and me4 = new beginning without relays. me4 reapers are used to build new relays from dead or alive reapers. synthesis fails, obviously. Then, new plot line is the original drew plot line of the mass effect pollution of galactic global warming.

#12
therealjosiahye

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im actually a little conflicted as to which is the paragon or renegade option. in my opinion (ignoring the synthesis option, as its more of a wildcard):

- controlling the reapers is the paragon option. cos first of all, it requires you give up your life to save the galaxy. furthermore, the explosion and mass relay beams are blue, the universal paragon colour.

- destroying all synthetic life is the renegade option. cos first of all it requires you be indiscriminate and destroy the geth, and lets face it, how paragon can that be? plus as the catalyst already said, the peace wont last. in addition, the explosions and beams are red in colour, the renegade's colour.

- but the thing that has me conflicted is that when presented with the "control" option, the vision shows the choice as being TIM's option, and per previous encounter TIM = bad guy, while the "destroy" option showed Anderson, who's supposed to be the good guy.

but if that's the case....
so choosing the renegade option is the only way you get to live? that doesnt seem right..

#13
JDrews10

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Asiant, what are the "two rules of life" you refer to?

#14
Asiant

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JDrews10 wrote...

Asiant, what are the "two rules of life" you refer to?


Organics will always create sythetics

Synthetics will always rebel against Organics

#15
Asiant

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therealjosiahye wrote...

im actually a little conflicted as to which is the paragon or renegade option. in my opinion (ignoring the synthesis option, as its more of a wildcard):

- controlling the reapers is the paragon option. cos first of all, it requires you give up your life to save the galaxy. furthermore, the explosion and mass relay beams are blue, the universal paragon colour.

- destroying all synthetic life is the renegade option. cos first of all it requires you be indiscriminate and destroy the geth, and lets face it, how paragon can that be? plus as the catalyst already said, the peace wont last. in addition, the explosions and beams are red in colour, the renegade's colour.

- but the thing that has me conflicted is that when presented with the "control" option, the vision shows the choice as being TIM's option, and per previous encounter TIM = bad guy, while the "destroy" option showed Anderson, who's supposed to be the good guy.

but if that's the case....
so choosing the renegade option is the only way you get to live? that doesnt seem right..


that is why the indoctrination and hallucination idea seems to be true...by providing Shepard with the true option
as the renegade option, the reapers are able to manipulate Shepard into making the wrong decision

#16
StarcloudSWG

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The Citadel itself is a Reaper construct; it is the Proto-Reaper, the first Reaper, and the 'starchild' is the VI-like expression of its conciousness.

Anderson says it in ME 2; "It's like.. our repairs are an annoyance. We put up an ugly new bulkhead, and the next day, it's seamless."

The Citadel is itself alive. Pity they don't *explore that BEFORE it matters*.

#17
Asiant

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StarcloudSWG wrote...

The Citadel itself is a Reaper construct; it is the Proto-Reaper, the first Reaper, and the 'starchild' is the VI-like expression of its conciousness.

Anderson says it in ME 2; "It's like.. our repairs are an annoyance. We put up an ugly new bulkhead, and the next day, it's seamless."

The Citadel is itself alive. Pity they don't *explore that BEFORE it matters*.


The citadel itself is alive makes sense in regard to the the endings we were given

the walls shifting = breathing
keepers = blood cells because they somehow maintain a constant number no matter how many dies

#18
MrPuschel

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I don't think that the writer itself know what it is...

#19
Asiant

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fans > writers...power to the players!

#20
DXLelouch15

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Catalyst is Harby in a dream sequence

#21
DemGeth

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I see it as a construct by a being higher up the evolutionary chain ala the Uplift series. It's pretty obvious that it doesn't understand the motivations of basic organic/synthetic races anymore. The moral system it uses is pretty messed up.

There's also a lot of references to the Uplift series in that game. 

Modifié par DemGeth, 12 mars 2012 - 04:03 .


#22
Malanek

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It was unclear. I just saw it as what the oldest species evolved into.

#23
DemGeth

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Malanek999 wrote...

It was unclear. I just saw it as what the oldest species evolved into.


Yeah I thought this at first, but I don't know didn't really fit the dialogue.  I think they just saw the problem, fixed it, and left to do whatever it is higher beings do.

#24
LotharanAeron

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I apologize if this has already been mentioned, but there is one thing the Catalyst-child says that, for me, really throws into question everything about him. After his introduction where he says that he controls the Reapers he always says "we", meaning himself and the Reapers together. This leads me to believe it is some kind of collective unconsciousness of the Reapers. Considering how the child says that he is the Citadel and that the Reapers have so many direct and indirect connections to it, I have to wonder if the child is just an energy manifestation of the "souls" of the collective Reaper "nations".

Thus he exists as a pseudo commander, but in a reactionary way. This provides room for his screwy logic and somewhat self-fulfilling prophecy. Tech singularity is reached because they demand it. We don't know how long Sovereign was trying to call in the Reapers. Perhaps the Geth rebellion was the trigger point and he tried to signal 300 years ago and it failed and since then set into motion plans for using the Geth, etc. Nevermind the fact that, hybrid or not, the Reapers ARE essentially the tech singularity talked about.

As far as I'm concerned we don't really need to know or truly understand their intentions since we have been told many times they are incomprehensible. So having it summed up so neatly by the Catalyst-child, who stands a good chance of being part of the reapers and not above the Reapers screams of deception. Hallucination or real world, the Catalyst-child is something far more sinister than it seems, to me.

#25
Aldereth C

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Probably an AI or a "sythesis of AI and organics" left over from an early civilization that predate the prothians many "cycles" for the simple purpose of carrying out their solution for the creator/created conflict