57 réponses à ce sujet

[Kangaxx_54]

I just started a new game, and was watching the intro video. I noticed that after the image of the Tevinter mages in front of the Golden/Black city, it leads to a new image of a framed tree. It has leaves, but these all fall off. The interesting thing is that Flemeth uses a leafless tree as her symbol; it's on both her grimoires. When you see the tree in the video, the narrator says that the mages were 'cast out, twisted and cursed by their own corruption', and staight after you see the mages turned darkspawn.

To me, this makes it seem as if the leafless tree symbolises the start of the darkspawn and/or simply the darkspawn. The question is, why does Flemeth use it? Did she pick it up randomly, or is there a stronger connection?

I'm not the best at the lore, but from what I recall, Flemeth is around 400 year olds, according to the legends, and it's been at least 800 years (I think) since the first blight; that's a rather long time. I've also seen some speculation that Flemeth is herself more or less part of an old God, given that she can shift into a high dragon.  

[Null]

Hmm. I always thought that Flemeth just shapeshifted into the form of a High Dragon. If Morrigan got older and more experienced she may have been able to do the same.

[Wintermist]

While I think it's well spotted on your facts, I don't think Flemeth be an old god, but instead just a very well learned mage.

[NarcissaArtois]

That is a very interesting point. I give Bioware points for certainly knowing how to mess with our heads from time to time.

There is a good possibility that there is a connection. After all the game is called Dragon Age: Origins...which makes you think it is only the beginning...and they left a lot of loose ends, so I certainly wouldn't dismiss the possibility yet.

[Herr Uhl]

Flemeth is older than the blight I think. She was around before Andraste I think.



But then again I am an idiot that usually is wrong about these things.

[NarcissaArtois]

Mueller86 wrote...

Hmm. I always thought that Flemeth just shapeshifted into the form of a High Dragon. If Morrigan got older and more experienced she may have been able to do the same.

I am not entirely convinced that Flemeth was a human that could shape shift into a dragon, I think that it is possible that it is the other way around. After all, I would assume that once she was killed, the magic would have worn off and it would be a human corpse, not a dragon corpse that is left. Even if you go back to the wilds long after you defeat Flemeth its still a dead dragon lying there.

[Setz69]

Im not sure of that. Morrigan specifically says to shapeshift into something you need to spend a lot of time around it studying how it moves, how it feels, and how it reacts etc. Whats flemeth doing hanging around dragons?

[Null]

Setz69 wrote...

Im not sure of that. Morrigan specifically says to shapeshift into something you need to spend a lot of time around it studying how it moves, how it feels, and how it reacts etc. Whats flemeth doing hanging around dragons?

I don't think it's too much of a stretch. If the Cult of Andraste spent time around dragons so could Flemeth.

[Herr Uhl]

Setz69 wrote...

Im not sure of that. Morrigan specifically says to shapeshift into something you need to spend a lot of time around it studying how it moves, how it feels, and how it reacts etc. Whats flemeth doing hanging around dragons?

What is Morrigan doing chilling with giant spiders?

[Daralii]

Mueller86 wrote...

Setz69 wrote...

Im not sure of that. Morrigan specifically says to shapeshift into something you need to spend a lot of time around it studying how it moves, how it feels, and how it reacts etc. Whats flemeth doing hanging around dragons?

I don't think it's too much of a stretch. If the Cult of Andraste spent time around dragons so could Flemeth.

The problem then comes with how extremely rare high dragons are. Then again, given her age it's theoretically possible she raised one for the sole purpose of studying it.


It's an interesting connection to be sure though, especially when you consider that, based on Morrigan, Flemeth likely doesn't believe the tales regarding the rise of the first darkspawn. Either she just uses the symbol to spook Andrastians(can't remember if there's a formal name for the religion or not...), or she knows them to be true. I suppose she could also be Tevinter.

[Herr Uhl]

High dragons were not as rare in the days of yore, before the Nevarran dragon hunters.

[Jedi-Master-Spock]

I think Flemeth was one of the mages who became the first darkspawn.One of the ones 'cast out'. At least that's my theory.

[Vicious]

I think Flemeth's original form is that of a Dragon, and she's been shapeshifted as a Human the whole time.

[lumpkin]

Jedi-Master-Spock wrote...

I think Flemeth was one of the mages who became the first darkspawn.One of the ones 'cast out'. At least that's my theory.

very interesting!
Don't forget flemeth and morrigan's big plan - to resurrect an Old god free of the darkspawn taint. fits right in, huh?

I think she may have been one of the original trevinter mages that invaded the veil, (or worked with them) but did NOT get turned into darkspawn. Remember how the darkspawn don't attack her hut although she lives right in the middle of their attack zone? There's a link here.

[Jedi-Master-Spock]

lumpkin wrote...

Jedi-Master-Spock wrote...

I think Flemeth was one of the mages who became the first darkspawn.One of the ones 'cast out'. At least that's my theory.

very interesting!
Don't forget flemeth and morrigan's big plan - to resurrect an Old god free of the darkspawn taint. fits right in, huh?

I think she may have been one of the original trevinter mages that invaded the veil, (or worked with them) but did NOT get turned into darkspawn. Remember how the darkspawn don't attack her hut although she lives right in the middle of their attack zone? There's a link here.

Thank you good sir/madam.

That's a very good point with the hut. And if she did invade the veil with the rest of her buddies, how did she not get turned into a darkspawn? Did she not go into the Dark City (I think that's what it is)?

It's settled. I want a prequel.

Modifié par Jedi-Master-Spock, 01 décembre 2009 - 12:27 .

[Zeleen]

Jedi-Master-Spock wrote...

lumpkin wrote...

Jedi-Master-Spock wrote...

I think Flemeth was one of the mages who became the first darkspawn.One of the ones 'cast out'. At least that's my theory.

very interesting!
Don't forget flemeth and morrigan's big plan - to resurrect an Old god free of the darkspawn taint. fits right in, huh?

I think she may have been one of the original trevinter mages that invaded the veil, (or worked with them) but did NOT get turned into darkspawn. Remember how the darkspawn don't attack her hut although she lives right in the middle of their attack zone? There's a link here.

Thank you good sir/madam.

That's a very good point with the hut. And if she did invade the veil with the rest of her buddies, how did she not get turned into a darkspawn? Did she not go into the Dark City (I think that's what it is)?

It's settled. I want a prequel.

IMG!  That would be GREAT...  Maybe the Devs will do one and give us 4 games in the series,,,  COOL!

[Anya_Mornhaven]

Jedi-Master-Spock wrote...

lumpkin wrote...

Jedi-Master-Spock wrote...

I think Flemeth was one of the mages who became the first darkspawn.One of the ones 'cast out'. At least that's my theory.

very interesting!
Don't forget flemeth and morrigan's big plan - to resurrect an Old god free of the darkspawn taint. fits right in, huh?

I think she may have been one of the original trevinter mages that invaded the veil, (or worked with them) but did NOT get turned into darkspawn. Remember how the darkspawn don't attack her hut although she lives right in the middle of their attack zone? There's a link here.

Thank you good sir/madam.

That's a very good point with the hut. And if she did invade the veil with the rest of her buddies, how did she not get turned into a darkspawn? Did she not go into the Dark City (I think that's what it is)?

That story about the Tevinter mages being naughty is a darkspawn creation myth, developed by the Chantry. No-one actually knows where the darkspawn originated from.

As for why the darkspawn seem to avoid Flemeth's house, I'm sure that Morrigan says her mother's magic keeps them away. When Morrigan is asked to guide you out of the Korcari Wilds, I vaguely recall she mentions that Flemeth created something for the darkspawn to "smell" as a distraction while your group makes their way to safety. It's also interesting to note that the blight (as in the fleshy growth with horns and pustules) doesn't seem to develop in the wilderness.

[lumpkin]

Interesting points. However,

Although the chantry seems to spread lies and errors, they were right about Andraste. And they were right about her ashes healing people. Therefore there may be truth to the Darkspawn creation myth, who's to say without more data?



Regarding Flemeth, we know better than to trust what Morrigan tells us outright, don't we? She hid her rather important plan from us during hundreds of near death experiences in battle, while we made plans that could surely have benefited from her knowledge. She waited until our very soul's existence was on the brink to make her proposition.

A hard nosed and shrewd negotiator if you ask me. Therefore whatever she told us about Flemeth was by design.



What do we know about Flemeth's methods anyway? Morrigan allegedly didn't know about Flemeth's plan to KILL her until she found it out from the mysterious book that only she can read, and therefore cannot be validated. This makes Morrigan's information no better than the Chantry's. For all we know the Grimoire contained scribbles of kittens and baby porpoises.



Lets take the 'smell' explanation at face value for argument's sake. It only reinforces the idea that Flemeth is linked to the Darkspawn. The Darkspawn sense our Grey Wardens via the 'taint sense', this is most likely what she is referring to by 'smell'. In all likelihood she called them to her, or to a spot of her choosing. Or had an accomplice do it.



Lastly, we know the darkspawn breed underground. Hence underground pustules.

[Majspuffen]

lumpkin wrote...

Interesting points. However,
Although the chantry seems to spread lies and errors, they were right about Andraste. And they were right about her ashes healing people. Therefore there may be truth to the Darkspawn creation myth, who's to say without more data?

Actually, they may be wrong about Andraste... at least about the ashes healing powers, if you have Oghren in your party in the gauntlet, he'll tell you that the mountains are filled with lyrium, or something like that. He beileves that the ashes are magical because of the mountain, not because of the prophet. Is he right? Who knows... lyrium is strange.

[Varenus Luckmann]

Something else that I just cannot shake about Flemeth, and because of which many will undoubtly call me paranoid over, is the fact that when you are sent to collect the treaties, Duncan says that only a Warden can break the protective wards.

While the explenation that the wards have faded is possibly entirely valid, I just cannot shake the feeling that there is more to this issue. Why bother or come up with that explanation at all? To set up the meeting with Flemeth? No need, you could just say that there never were any wards at all.

Remember, you heard it here first.

NarcissaArtois wrote...

Mueller86 wrote...
Hmm. I always thought that Flemeth just shapeshifted into the form of a High Dragon. If Morrigan got older and more experienced she may have been able to do the same.

I am not entirely convinced that Flemeth was a human that could shape shift into a dragon, I think that it is possible that it is the other way around. After all, I would assume that once she was killed, the magic would have worn off and it would be a human corpse, not a dragon corpse that is left. Even if you go back to the wilds long after you defeat Flemeth its still a dead dragon lying there.

The very fact that they change her name into "Flemeth the Shapeshifter" upon change into the dragon form, leads me to believe that they have something they want to cover up. Why change her name at all, instead of just sticking to "Flemeth", unless there was something naturally duplicitous about it?

For me, there are four possible scenarios. Note that most, if not all, are not mutually exclusive.

• Flemeth is, or inhabit the soul of, a former archdemon and/or old god.
• Flemeth is a servant of, or otherwise directly connected to, the old gods.
• Flemeth was or is connected to the old Tevinter Imperium and/or their religion, possibly a Magister.
• Flemeth is somehow connected to the ancient Grey Wardens and, by proxy, the archdemons.

[Varenus Luckmann]

lumpkin wrote...
Interesting points. However,
Although the chantry seems to spread lies and errors, they were right about Andraste. And they were right about her ashes healing people. Therefore there may be truth to the Darkspawn creation myth, who's to say without more data?

What do you mean "they were right about Andraste"? There are many stories about Andraste and surely the Chantry teaches many aspects of her. There is nothing confirming that the Maker exists or that Andraste was his chosen bride. And that's -exactly- what the Chantry teaches.

And the Ashes healing people - true. But that doesn't mean that they are somehow divine. It could be some kind of magic. There is a book in the game suggesting that she was an extremely potent mage. I am inclined to believe that Andraste was a magister who opposed the other magisters attempt to enter the supposed Golden City.

As someone else said in another thread - abominations has a tendency to explode upon death. But there are many other things that can inhabit a human spellcaster, besides demons. Spirits of Hope, Faith, Valor. Who are we to know that "the Maker" wasn't "just" one of the more potent spirits, perhaps the only one of his kind, and what that would do to the ashes or the corpse of whomever such a spirit inhabited?

lumpkin wrote...
Regarding Flemeth, we know better than to trust what Morrigan tells us outright, don't we? She hid her rather important plan from us during hundreds of near death experiences in battle, while we made plans that could surely have benefited from her knowledge. She waited until our very soul's existence was on the brink to make her proposition.
A hard nosed and shrewd negotiator if you ask me. Therefore whatever she told us about Flemeth was by design.

What do we know about Flemeth's methods anyway? Morrigan allegedly didn't know about Flemeth's plan to KILL her until she found it out from the mysterious book that only she can read, and therefore cannot be validated. This makes Morrigan's information no better than the Chantry's. For all we know the Grimoire contained scribbles of kittens and baby porpoises.

What people tend to forget is that we never read the Grimoire ourselves. The only one that ever claimed that Flemeth was out to kill Morrigan was Morrigan herself. Morrigan is a lying, cheating, manipulative, deluded, power-hungry, scheming harlot of a swamp-witch. I am not saying that Flemeth is any better or that the Grimoire doesn't actually detail Flemeth's plans. I am just saying that neither Flemeth or Morrigan can be trusted remotely. And even then, I'd take Flemeth's word over Morrigan's.

And just to be clear; I'm not arguing with you. I am just underlining your points.

lumpkin wrote...
Lets take the 'smell' explanation at face value for argument's sake. It only reinforces the idea that Flemeth is linked to the Darkspawn. The Darkspawn sense our Grey Wardens via the 'taint sense', this is most likely what she is referring to by 'smell'. In all likelihood she called them to her, or to a spot of her choosing. Or had an accomplice do it.

Lastly, we know the darkspawn breed underground. Hence underground pustules.

I wouldn't be so quick to judge Flemeth on this issue, though. Grey Wardens are, after all, also linked to the darkspawn. I think a great many, some ancient, persons in Thedas are directly or indirectly linked to the darkspawn, knowingly or not.

The feeling I got when she was going to distract the darkspawn was that she turned into a dragon or something similar and let it rip. I think that Flemeth is genuinely concerned over the darkspawn and knows far, far more than she is telling us - and that the warning she gave us at the beginning of our quest didn't have anything at all to do with this current blight. This threat is far greater than we realize.



Edit: Andraste was a Magister and Flemeth was tied to the Grey Wardens, and they knew eachother. Those are my guns and I'm stickin' to them.

Modifié par Varenus Luckmann, 01 décembre 2009 - 10:25 .

[JamesX]

Flemmeth is obviously not Tavinter. So if Chantry is right (assuming that) she is in no way one of the original mages. Flemmeth also is post-antreste I think.

Also from what I remember the First Blight is way after the Original Sin.

Modifié par JamesX, 01 décembre 2009 - 11:56 .

[LtlMac]

lumpkin wrote...

Interesting points. However,
Although the chantry seems to spread lies and errors, they were right about Andraste. And they were right about her ashes healing people. Therefore there may be truth to the Darkspawn creation myth, who's to say without more data?

Regarding Flemeth, we know better than to trust what Morrigan tells us outright, don't we? She hid her rather important plan from us during hundreds of near death experiences in battle, while we made plans that could surely have benefited from her knowledge. She waited until our very soul's existence was on the brink to make her proposition.
A hard nosed and shrewd negotiator if you ask me. Therefore whatever she told us about Flemeth was by design.

What do we know about Flemeth's methods anyway? Morrigan allegedly didn't know about Flemeth's plan to KILL her until she found it out from the mysterious book that only she can read, and therefore cannot be validated. This makes Morrigan's information no better than the Chantry's. For all we know the Grimoire contained scribbles of kittens and baby porpoises.

Lets take the 'smell' explanation at face value for argument's sake. It only reinforces the idea that Flemeth is linked to the Darkspawn. The Darkspawn sense our Grey Wardens via the 'taint sense', this is most likely what she is referring to by 'smell'. In all likelihood she called them to her, or to a spot of her choosing. Or had an accomplice do it.

Lastly, we know the darkspawn breed underground. Hence underground pustules.

If you inspect the Robes of possession you get After Killing Flemeth it's states very planely that they were to assist in Flemeth taking over Morrigans body.  THe evidence is pretty damning.....Morrigan was not neccesarily telling the WHOLE truth...but the was at least telling the truth.

[tigrina]

Wintermist wrote...

While I think it's well spotted on your facts, I don't think Flemeth be an old god, but instead just a very well learned mage.

Like Andraste then. I wonder how the backstories got related though, being both betrayed by a man over another man/god. Or maybe that just fits the setting.

[Volourn]

Has anyone tried to go to Flemeth's Hut with Morrigan in party after she asks you to kill her? Does a cutscene occur where she simply refuses/ Can you even click on the hut then? If you can reach the swamp with Morri in party what dialogue options do you get when you confront Flemeth? Hmmm.