57 réponses à ce sujet

[tigrina]

Volourn wrote...

Has anyone tried to go to Flemeth's Hut with Morrigan in party after she asks you to kill her? Does a cutscene occur where she simply refuses/ Can you even click on the hut then? If you can reach the swamp with Morri in party what dialogue options do you get when you confront Flemeth? Hmmm.

Flemeth simply isn't at home when you go there with Morrigan after you got her quest as far as I know.

[Ulrik the Slayer]

You can't trust the legends to tell you how old Flemeth is. Remember that she has "upgraded" herself to a new body countless times prior to the events of DA:O.

Just because there are no records of Flemeth older than 400-or-so years doesn't mean she can't be older.

Modifié par Ulrik the Slayer, 02 décembre 2009 - 12:36 .

[lumpkin]

lumpkin wrote...
Interesting points. However,
Although the chantry seems to spread lies and errors, they were right about Andraste. And they were right about her ashes healing people. Therefore there may be truth to the Darkspawn creation myth, who's to say without more data?

What do you mean "they were right about Andraste"? There are many stories about Andraste and surely the Chantry teaches many aspects of her. There is nothing confirming that the Maker exists or that Andraste was his chosen bride. And that's -exactly- what the Chantry teaches.

And the Ashes healing people - true. But that doesn't mean that they are somehow divine. It could be some kind of magic. There is a book in the game suggesting that she was an extremely potent mage. I am inclined to believe that Andraste was a magister who opposed the other magisters attempt to enter the supposed Golden City.

As someone else said in another thread - abominations has a tendency to explode upon death. But there are many other things that can inhabit a human spellcaster, besides demons. Spirits of Hope, Faith, Valor. Who are we to know that "the Maker" wasn't "just" one of the more potent spirits, perhaps the only one of his kind, and what that would do to the ashes or the corpse of whomever such a spirit inhabited?

I meant that they were right that she existed.
I think there is enough evidence, including the temple, ancient magical knight, and other things that prove the ashes in that urn were from the right time period, which lends credence to the whole story. Not to mention the eyewitness testimony of the knight, who presumably is still there to be asked about it (at least until the dragon destroyed the temple). The knight could be a demon or abomination possibly, but if we go too far down the road of questioning every fact then we will always lose since this is just a video game. The way it was presented in game is in the manner that the designers are telling us this is a truth.

Your thought that Andraste was a potent mage makes a lot of sense.

lumpkin wrote...
Lets take the 'smell' explanation at face value for argument's sake. It only reinforces the idea that Flemeth is linked to the Darkspawn. The Darkspawn sense our Grey Wardens via the 'taint sense', this is most likely what she is referring to by 'smell'. In all likelihood she called them to her, or to a spot of her choosing. Or had an accomplice do it.

Lastly, we know the darkspawn breed underground. Hence underground pustules.

I wouldn't be so quick to judge Flemeth on this issue, though. Grey Wardens are, after all, also linked to the darkspawn. I think a great many, some ancient, persons in Thedas are directly or indirectly linked to the darkspawn, knowingly or not.

The feeling I got when she was going to distract the darkspawn was that she turned into a dragon or something similar and let it rip. I think that Flemeth is genuinely concerned over the darkspawn and knows far, far more than she is telling us - and that the warning she gave us at the beginning of our quest didn't have anything at all to do with this current blight. This threat is far greater than we realize.

I like that thought. The darkspawn dominated the history of the entire world for a thousand years, we cannot and should not know everything already, if this is meant to be a series of games.

Edit: Andraste was a Magister and Flemeth was tied to the Grey Wardens, and they knew eachother. Those are my guns and I'm stickin' to them.

I like it. As a matter of fact Flemeth could have been not only a sister magister, but the First Grey Warden.

Modifié par lumpkin, 02 décembre 2009 - 12:33 .

[Jedi-Master-Spock]

lumpkin wrote...

lumpkin wrote...
Interesting points. However,
Although the chantry seems to spread lies and errors, they were right about Andraste. And they were right about her ashes healing people. Therefore there may be truth to the Darkspawn creation myth, who's to say without more data?

What do you mean "they were right about Andraste"? There are many stories about Andraste and surely the Chantry teaches many aspects of her. There is nothing confirming that the Maker exists or that Andraste was his chosen bride. And that's -exactly- what the Chantry teaches.

And the Ashes healing people - true. But that doesn't mean that they are somehow divine. It could be some kind of magic. There is a book in the game suggesting that she was an extremely potent mage. I am inclined to believe that Andraste was a magister who opposed the other magisters attempt to enter the supposed Golden City.

As someone else said in another thread - abominations has a tendency to explode upon death. But there are many other things that can inhabit a human spellcaster, besides demons. Spirits of Hope, Faith, Valor. Who are we to know that "the Maker" wasn't "just" one of the more potent spirits, perhaps the only one of his kind, and what that would do to the ashes or the corpse of whomever such a spirit inhabited?

I meant that they were right that she existed.
I think there is enough evidence, including the temple, ancient magical knight, and other things that prove the ashes in that urn were from the right time period, which lends credence to the whole story. Not to mention the eyewitness testimony of the knight, who presumably is still there to be asked about it (at least until the dragon destroyed the temple). The knight could be a demon or abomination possibly, but if we go too far down the road of questioning every fact then we will always lose since this is just a video game. The way it was presented in game is in the manner that the designers are telling us this is a truth.

Your thought that Andraste was a potent mage makes a lot of sense.

lumpkin wrote...
Lets take the 'smell' explanation at face value for argument's sake. It only reinforces the idea that Flemeth is linked to the Darkspawn. The Darkspawn sense our Grey Wardens via the 'taint sense', this is most likely what she is referring to by 'smell'. In all likelihood she called them to her, or to a spot of her choosing. Or had an accomplice do it.

Lastly, we know the darkspawn breed underground. Hence underground pustules.

I wouldn't be so quick to judge Flemeth on this issue, though. Grey Wardens are, after all, also linked to the darkspawn. I think a great many, some ancient, persons in Thedas are directly or indirectly linked to the darkspawn, knowingly or not.

The feeling I got when she was going to distract the darkspawn was that she turned into a dragon or something similar and let it rip. I think that Flemeth is genuinely concerned over the darkspawn and knows far, far more than she is telling us - and that the warning she gave us at the beginning of our quest didn't have anything at all to do with this current blight. This threat is far greater than we realize.

I like that thought. The darkspawn dominated the history of the entire world for a thousand years, we cannot and should not know everything already, if this is meant to be a series of games.

Edit: Andraste was a Magister and Flemeth was tied to the Grey Wardens, and they knew eachother. Those are my guns and I'm stickin' to them.

I like it. As a matter of fact Flemeth could have been not only a sister magister, but the First Grey Warden.

Wouldn't she have died in 30 years? Unless that's the amount of time she has in each body. That is, of course, going with the idea that the taint is connected with the soul, and the body dies in 30 years.

[Ashlag]

Jedi-Master-Spock wrote...

Wouldn't she have died in 30 years? Unless that's the amount of time she has in each body. That is, of course, going with the idea that the taint is connected with the soul, and the body dies in 30 years.

I like the idea, but her current body is too old for that explanation, we never hear anything about the taint causing faster aging so Flemeth's current body is actually that of an old woman and so she must have lived a long time already. Also, Morrigan is at least 20, which makes the 30 years that Flemeth could be in a single body wrong, she couldn't have a kid at 10 years old.

Maybe (to keep the idea that Flemeth is/was the first grey warden) her original body did only last 30 years but then in the transfer of her soul to other bodies (as Morrigan describes) doesn't also transfer the taint, I mean, the taint seems like a physical thing, not a spiritual thing, so if you change bodies then it wouldn't transfer right? So that way she would still be super old, and connected to the grey wardens, but not technically a grey warden, since she isn't tainted by the blight.

Modifié par Ashlag, 02 décembre 2009 - 04:13 .

[Drunkencelt]

I don't get this big Morrigan-Flemeth dark sinister plan. I went and killed Flemeth and she ain't coming back. You are reading too much into it.



If you let Flemeth live and lie to Morrigan, the ending says she killed Morrigan. It doesn't matter that Morrigan is with god child, she kills her.



None of the story or endings make sense if they plotted together. It doesn't mean they lied to us, It means Bioware and the endings lied to us.

[Jedi-Master-Spock]

[quote]Drunkencelt wrote...

I don't get this big Morrigan-Flemeth dark sinister plan. I went and killed Flemeth and she ain't coming back. You are reading too much into it.

If you let Flemeth live and lie to Morrigan, the ending says she killed Morrigan. It doesn't matter that Morrigan is with god child, she kills her.

None of the story or endings make sense if they plotted together. It doesn't mean they lied to us, It means Bioware and the endings lied to us.[/quote]
Morrigan infers that killing her physical body may not kill her completly, but just make her really weak and not able to transfer to a new body.

Think Voldymort in Sorcerers Stone.


[/quote]

I like the idea, but her current body is too old for that explanation, we never hear anything about the taint causing faster aging so Flemeth's current body is actually that of an old woman and so she must have lived a long time already. Also, Morrigan is at least 20, which makes the 30 years that Flemeth could be in a single body wrong, she couldn't have a kid at 10 years old.

Maybe (to keep the idea that Flemeth is/was the first grey warden) her original body did only last 30 years but then in the transfer of her soul to other bodies (as Morrigan describes) doesn't also transfer the taint, I mean, the taint seems like a physical thing, not a spiritual thing, so if you change bodies then it wouldn't transfer right? So that way she would still be super old, and connected to the grey wardens, but not technically a grey warden, since she isn't tainted by the blight.

[/quote]

Maybe she was a Grey Warden, taint and all, gave the final blow to an Archdemon.....but survived. Would explain her dragon shape.

[Jedi-Master-Spock]

{Aww...double post.....}

Modifié par Jedi-Master-Spock, 02 décembre 2009 - 05:14 .

[lumpkin]

Drunkencelt wrote...

I don't get this big Morrigan-Flemeth dark sinister plan. I went and killed Flemeth and she ain't coming back. You are reading too much into it.

If you let Flemeth live and lie to Morrigan, the ending says she killed Morrigan. It doesn't matter that Morrigan is with god child, she kills her.

None of the story or endings make sense if they plotted together. It doesn't mean they lied to us, It means Bioware and the endings lied to us.

-

Yeah, the taint is definitely physical because you have to drink blood to get it, or get touched by the darkspawn. Remember the female dwarves in oghrammar? Forced to eat dead deadspawn bodies (UGH)? So if Flemeth moved her sould into successive daughters she would avoid the taint while maintaining her knowledge.
Perhaps this is why she started the daughter hopping process in the first place.

[andre_]

Nice find Kangaxx! It fits perfectly with my idea about the Tevinter Imperium and Flemeth/Morrigan:

The Tevinter Imperium once was the most powerful in Thedas. The leaders were Magisters with the Imperial Archon at the top of the hierachy. They worshipped dragons - the Old Gods (Codex #132 "The Old Gods"). Those in return teached the Magisters magic in the first place - blood magic beeing part of it (Codex entries from Brother Genitivi's "Tales of the Destruction of Thedas". 4 parts, starting at #211. Most interesting!).

At some point, the Magisters opened a portal to the Golden City at the heart of the Fade to take over the throne of the Maker. They failed and were "kicked out" again, but tainting the Golden City along the way - now known as the Black City. The Chantry tells that the Magisters then turned into the first darkspawn, but maybe not all of them? (hint: Flemeth). Codex #212, Brother Genitivi again: The Old Gods were then imprisioned by the Maker, now in deep slumber. The Magisters, now darkspawn, seeked out the Old Gods in the Deep Roads. When they found the first, they corrupted it with their darkspawn taint, turning it into the first Archdeamon. The first Blight was born.

Fast forward a few centuries... another Blight (the time the game takes place). You learn that the essence of the Old God within the Archdeamon needs to be extracted. That's the only way to end the Blight. For that, another tainted vessel has to be present. Either a Gray Warden represents that, thereby destroying her/himself along with the essence. Or, as Flemeth's daughter tells you, an unborn baby with the taint. The difference is that the essence will be preserved in the latter case, but cleansed from the taint. The Old God will be what it once was and live on as the soul of the child.
Isn't that the ultimate goal an uncorrupted Magister strives for? If you talk to Morrigan as she comes up with the ritual, she tells you that this is the very reason that she came along in the first place. That baby was the plan of her and her mother all along, the essence is the only thing they care about. If you ask about the ritual, she says its blood magic - first known to the powerful Tevinter magisters, taught by the Old Gods themselves.

It all points to the old Tevinter magisters seeking their Old Gods. They had everything, but lost so much. I wouldn't blame them for fighting for what they once had. And somehow I think Flemeth fits pretty good in that picture

Then again, I'm not sure who or what Flemeth really is supposed to be. Maybe she's the Imperial Archon, travelling from one body to another to survive over centuries? All (or most) of her fellow magisters are tainted, eventually discovering another Old God and ultimately feeding it to the Wardens to kill. This is already the fifth Blight, and there are only seven (Codex #132 again). Maybe she tries another approach with the baby this Blight, playing the Wardens. Or maybe she's Dumat, the Old God of the first Blight. You need blood of an Archdeamon for the Joining to become a Grey Warden in the first place. Which means that the essence of that God could not be destroyed (at least in the first Blight). While codex #213 mentions that the Gray Wardens were born during the first Blight, they just couldn't be Wardens with the taint as we know them from the game. But well, they had griffons.

Oh my, so many unanswered questions...

[Sarethus]

Ashlag wrote...

Jedi-Master-Spock wrote...

Wouldn't she have died in 30 years? Unless that's the amount of time she has in each body. That is, of course, going with the idea that the taint is connected with the soul, and the body dies in 30 years.

I like the idea, but her current body is too old for that explanation, we never hear anything about the taint causing faster aging so Flemeth's current body is actually that of an old woman and so she must have lived a long time already. Also, Morrigan is at least 20, which makes the 30 years that Flemeth could be in a single body wrong, she couldn't have a kid at 10 years old.

Maybe (to keep the idea that Flemeth is/was the first grey warden) her original body did only last 30 years but then in the transfer of her soul to other bodies (as Morrigan describes) doesn't also transfer the taint, I mean, the taint seems like a physical thing, not a spiritual thing, so if you change bodies then it wouldn't transfer right? So that way she would still be super old, and connected to the grey wardens, but not technically a grey warden, since she isn't tainted by the blight.

Your forgetting Avernus from the Warden's Keep DLC. That guy used Blood Magic to fight off the taint and extend his life for quite a number of years. I wouldn't put it past Flemeth to have done the same.

[Varenus Luckmann]

JamesX wrote...

Flemmeth is obviously not Tavinter. So if Chantry is right (assuming that) she is in no way one of the original mages. Flemmeth also is post-antreste I think.

Also from what I remember the First Blight is way after the Original Sin.

The first sin was the worship of the Old Gods over that of the Maker and predates Andraste. Andraste rose to power after the second sin - the sin of pride, in which the Tevinter magisters tried to depose of the Maker and set themselves up as gods by invading the Golden City.

The very reason she was supposedly successfull was because of the Tevinter Imperium being greatly weakened following the First Blight. That means that the original Grey Wardens, Andraste, the latter foundations Chantry and the Fall of Tevinter were all contemporaries.

As for the actual Age of Flemeth, she is extremely old. I saw a thread somewhere arguing that she was possibly there during the first blight, but I can't seem to find it now.

If there's something "obviously not Tavinter" about it, I'd like to see it. And as far as I know, the Chantry doesn't have any opinion on Flemeth whatsoever.

Modifié par Varenus Luckmann, 02 décembre 2009 - 10:14 .

[Varenus Luckmann]

Ulrik the Slayer wrote...
You can't trust the legends to tell you how old Flemeth is. Remember that she has "upgraded" herself to a new body countless times prior to the events of DA:O.

We don't know that. We only have Morrigan's word.

Ulrik the Slayer wrote...
Just because there are no records of Flemeth older than 400-or-so years doesn't mean she can't be older.

There are at least two completely different stories about Flemeth; One from Morrigan and one from Leliana.

Leliana's story appears to be common storytelling and in the case of Morrigan, you already have an untrustworthy source. And even if Morrigan thinks she's telling the truth, she in turn takes her story from Flemeth - an arguably even less trustworthy source of information.

Sufficient to say is that Flemeth has been around for a long time and we're never really given a timeframe.

Edit: And if someone is wondering why I'm multi-posting, it's because copy/paste is wonky on these boards and everything turns out looking like **** if I copy/paste several quoted segments into a single post.

Modifié par Varenus Luckmann, 02 décembre 2009 - 10:20 .

[Varenus Luckmann]

lumpkin wrote...
I meant that they were right that she existed.
I think there is enough evidence, including the temple, ancient magical knight, and other things that prove the ashes in that urn were from the right time period, which lends credence to the whole story. Not to mention the eyewitness testimony of the knight, who presumably is still there to be asked about it (at least until the dragon destroyed the temple). The knight could be a demon or abomination possibly, but if we go too far down the road of questioning every fact then we will always lose since this is just a video game. The way it was presented in game is in the manner that the designers are telling us this is a truth.

There's absolutely no doubt that Andraste existed, the same way it's generally assumed Jesus was a historical figure. There must be historical records, even if they're not complete, dating back at least to the fall of the Tevinter Imperium.

All the ghosts, the Guardian - we all know that these exist. The real question is if there is some sort of divine intervention going on. And that is kept ambigious.

Ulrik the Slayer wrote...
I like that thought. The darkspawn dominated the history of the entire world for a thousand years, we cannot and should not know everything already, if this is meant to be a series of games.

I doubt we'll ever get the whole story, no matter the number of games. If they ever go out and says, officially in any way, "The Maker is real", I think they'd really destroy an interesting part of the game.

[Varenus Luckmann]

Jedi-Master-Spock wrote...
Wouldn't she have died in 30 years? Unless that's the amount of time she has in each body. That is, of course, going with the idea that the taint is connected with the soul, and the body dies in 30 years.

If she was a normal human being, sure. But Flemeth is anything but normal - and that's disregarding the possibility that the whole "Body snatcher" deal could be true.

[Varenus Luckmann]

lumpkin wrote...
Yeah, the taint is definitely physical because you have to drink blood to get it, or get touched by the darkspawn. Remember the female dwarves in oghrammar? Forced to eat dead deadspawn bodies (UGH)? So if Flemeth moved her sould into successive daughters she would avoid the taint while maintaining her knowledge.
Perhaps this is why she started the daughter hopping process in the first place.

We don't really know that. Blood is definately connected to soul in the Dragon Age setting. It is entirely possible that onces you've contracted the illness, it'll follow you around like a soulplague, infecting every body you inhabit.

This doesn't have to be that much of an obstacle, however. As someone said; Remember Avernus. He had the taint for well over a century. Magic, especially "forbidden" (Pfah! Chantry laws!) magics (which I am sure Flemeth is no stranger to) have the potential to greatly increase your lifespan considerably.

[Popemaster123]

OKAI....Everyone is assuming that chantry dogma is true.....show me some evidence that darkspawn were once people.



Nobody dare mention the broodmother connection...

[Varenus Luckmann]

Popemaster123 wrote...
OKAI....Everyone is assuming that chantry dogma is true.....

Au contraire.

Popemaster123 wrote...
show me some evidence that darkspawn were once people.

Nobody dare mention the broodmother connection...

I'm sorry, but does this have anything to do with the thread? Or anything.. anything at all?

[Popemaster123]

Varenus Luckmann wrote...

Popemaster123 wrote...
OKAI....Everyone is assuming that chantry dogma is true.....

Au contraire.

Popemaster123 wrote...
show me some evidence that darkspawn were once people.

Nobody dare mention the broodmother connection...

I'm sorry, but does this have anything to do with the thread? Or anything.. anything at all?

everyone was talking about how flemeth may be a darkspawn or how she was one of the mages cast out of the golden city.

Still seen NO evidence aof a golden city in the fade anyway. Don't think anyone has.

[Varenus Luckmann]

Popemaster123 wrote...

Varenus Luckmann wrote...

Popemaster123 wrote...
OKAI....Everyone is assuming that chantry dogma is true.....

Au contraire.

Popemaster123 wrote...
show me some evidence that darkspawn were once people.

Nobody dare mention the broodmother connection...

I'm sorry, but does this have anything to do with the thread? Or anything.. anything at all?

everyone was talking about how flemeth may be a darkspawn or how she was one of the mages cast out of the golden city.

What thread are you reading? Because it's definately not this one.

Popemaster123 wrote...
Still seen NO evidence aof a golden city in the fade anyway. Don't think anyone has.

Are you that clueless, or are you just trolling?

[Popemaster123]

Bit o both.

No i read the start of the forum and forgot bout the rest.My bad. Sorry. Kinda got bore though so meh.

BTW i reckon flemeth is probably got nothing to do witht he leaf thingy she just thought that it would be a good icon to use to scare people off.

And with her grimoire in Irvings room,some characters say he is always distant could he be studying her grimoire for his own purposes?

[Kozuka78]

Flemeth was a sorceress who fled into the wilds, encountered an ancient demon and was possessed. The demon is in an incredibly powerful entity that sustains itself in the body of a woman. Thats about all their is too it.

[Popemaster123]

Didnt she bond witht he demon though?how else would she be in a human body or still fairly sane?

[Varenus Luckmann]

Kozuka78 wrote...
Flemeth was a sorceress who fled into the wilds, encountered an ancient demon and was possessed. The demon is in an incredibly powerful entity that sustains itself in the body of a woman. Thats about all their is too it.

If that's all there is to it, how do you know?