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[Popemaster123]

hes obviously the demon.

[lumpkin]

andre_ wrote...

Nice find Kangaxx! It fits perfectly with my idea about the Tevinter Imperium and Flemeth/Morrigan:

The Tevinter Imperium once was the most powerful in Thedas. The leaders were Magisters with the Imperial Archon at the top of the hierachy. They worshipped dragons - the Old Gods (Codex #132 "The Old Gods"). Those in return teached the Magisters magic in the first place - blood magic beeing part of it (Codex entries from Brother Genitivi's "Tales of the Destruction of Thedas". 4 parts, starting at #211. Most interesting!).

At some point, the Magisters opened a portal to the Golden City at the heart of the Fade to take over the throne of the Maker. They failed and were "kicked out" again, but tainting the Golden City along the way - now known as the Black City. The Chantry tells that the Magisters then turned into the first darkspawn, but maybe not all of them? (hint: Flemeth). Codex #212, Brother Genitivi again: The Old Gods were then imprisioned by the Maker, now in deep slumber. The Magisters, now darkspawn, seeked out the Old Gods in the Deep Roads. When they found the first, they corrupted it with their darkspawn taint, turning it into the first Archdeamon. The first Blight was born.

Fast forward a few centuries... another Blight (the time the game takes place). You learn that the essence of the Old God within the Archdeamon needs to be extracted. That's the only way to end the Blight. For that, another tainted vessel has to be present. Either a Gray Warden represents that, thereby destroying her/himself along with the essence. Or, as Flemeth's daughter tells you, an unborn baby with the taint. The difference is that the essence will be preserved in the latter case, but cleansed from the taint. The Old God will be what it once was and live on as the soul of the child.
Isn't that the ultimate goal an uncorrupted Magister strives for? If you talk to Morrigan as she comes up with the ritual, she tells you that this is the very reason that she came along in the first place. That baby was the plan of her and her mother all along, the essence is the only thing they care about. If you ask about the ritual, she says its blood magic - first known to the powerful Tevinter magisters, taught by the Old Gods themselves.

It all points to the old Tevinter magisters seeking their Old Gods. They had everything, but lost so much. I wouldn't blame them for fighting for what they once had. And somehow I think Flemeth fits pretty good in that picture

Then again, I'm not sure who or what Flemeth really is supposed to be. Maybe she's the Imperial Archon, travelling from one body to another to survive over centuries? All (or most) of her fellow magisters are tainted, eventually discovering another Old God and ultimately feeding it to the Wardens to kill. This is already the fifth Blight, and there are only seven (Codex #132 again). Maybe she tries another approach with the baby this Blight, playing the Wardens. Or maybe she's Dumat, the Old God of the first Blight. You need blood of an Archdeamon for the Joining to become a Grey Warden in the first place. Which means that the essence of that God could not be destroyed (at least in the first Blight). While codex #213 mentions that the Gray Wardens were born during the first Blight, they just couldn't be Wardens with the taint as we know them from the game. But well, they had griffons.

Oh my, so many unanswered questions...

Awesome stuff. You just made me have a brainstorm also - check this out:

The Maker:
The Maker created the taint as a means to an end. The end being the destruction of the beings known as the old gods.

The old gods caused the beings of Thedas to not only stop worshipping the maker but also offend him by invading the fade. So he started a god-scale vendetta - cause his creations to turn back again on their corruptors, and more so utterly destroy them. Without the maker lifting a finger or proving he exists at all. Thats the way our God in our universe works.

If the taint causes darkspawn, who seek the old gods, who then try to destroy the world, the world fights back. The way to fight back is to destroy the leader of the darkspawn who is the old god. Done and done.

Original Darkspawn:
It occurs to me that the original darkspawn probably went to find the old gods for comfort or a way to reverse the taint, and taught that to the subsequent generations of darkspawn who were born that way. Poor things.

Flemeth:
Flemeth was one of the archons who discovered a couple of workarounds to the taint.
1. transfer your soul into another being and take it over. blood magic in righteous  trevinter style. You escape the taint and gain lifespan. Using your daughter just ensures a good host.

2. save the remaining old gods by using basically the same technique. Just so happens it is the old god transferring, not you. Sorry about your unborn soul being taken over by the old god there, little baby, but hey thems the breaks.

3. She probably told Morrigan about 2. but not about 1. so everything works out in the story we experience.

Modifié par lumpkin, 03 décembre 2009 - 12:12 .

[Popemaster123]

1. Does the maker exist?

2.If he does and the chnatyr is right bout the DS, then he has basically looked at us and sai f**k this im going for a dump and never came back. so not aplan to kill the old gods.

3. If he was truly a god he would nto care if people worshipped him or teh FSM.

[lumpkin]

Nothing to add andre_ ?

[KeeVasha]

Now that I have read all these posts.. I am wondering exactly what Flemeth meant when she told Morrigan: "Try to have some fun Dear" means.
Fun with messing with our heads?
Fun with messing with Alistair's head?
Or fun, before she tries to take over her body?

Flemeth knows full well.. the way she raised Morrigan, that Morrigan has no concept on what fun is.. <_<

Course over the span of this game.. I have lots of thoughts on various things happening in this game.

[marshalleck]

I think that was just a flippant remark meant to give the conversation some spice. I personally don't read that much into it.

[andre_]

@Popemaster:
1) That's most likely something we will never find out. What I think is what the Chantry teaches is derived from the truth, at least to some extend. Some tales are centuries old, and they are told differently today. Just like in our world, I take those with a grain of salt - especially if it comes from believers If in truth, it was not the Maker, then it could be some other great power.

2) Yes, Chantry's view. They say that happened as the Magisters entered the Golden City. They used a portal, hence entering in their native form (in contrast to entering through the Fade). Real humans facing the Maker and walking in his home, that's what tainted the City, hence he turning his back on what he created.

3) Again, view of the Chantry aka "The first sin"

@lumpkin:
Indeed, I thought about something similar about the vengeance of the Maker. But I didn't really think much further than that, focusing on Flemeth at the current playthrough.

But there are no generations of darkspawn. They get infected, and tained women who survive become broodmothers. Each of those breeding a special kind, depending on the race: Dwarven broodmothers the genlocks, humans the hurlocks, elves the shrieks and the qunari the ogres (see the broodmother codex). Darkspawn takes victims underground to feed the broodmothers. That's how they work, they don't reproduce themselves. I don't think that they are aware of their status or that they know they will corrupt their Old Gods when finding them. I see them more like mindless creatures. They wander around, even killing themselves. Only the Archdaemon connects the horde and directs them.

[Jedi-Master-Spock]

I am now totally lost.....