36 réponses à ce sujet

[MrChowderClam]

I've looked an all I can find are threads arguing about whether the endings were good/bad. I can see both sides, but personally, I'm still trying to make sense of everything!

As such, in the spirit of Brad's excellent ME3 dissertation @ nothing is irreversible, I'd like to keep this thread as a place for people to talk about the ending in it's current form, to make sense of it, and to dissect the mystery of the reapers. No flaming, please (god knows there are enough threads about that right now )

The engame conversation is availabe here (many thanks to deadshep for posting the video):  


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So first, the crucible. I know that Javik says it was a device to wipe out the reapers said to be developed and passed down through the cycles, but I'm not so sure that this is true. There are a few interesting points to be considered:

• The crucible requires the catalyst to fire. An interesting contradiction, given that the catalyst is revealed as the master of the reapers. Odd that the very component required to fire the crucible is also in charge of the species that the weapon will destroy.
• The crucible is said to be passed down through cycles. However, it seems highly unlikely that such knowledge could be passed down through hundreds of cycles without being detected and eradicated by the reapers.
• The catalyst has an uncanny understanding of what the crucible is meant to do, even going as far to guide shepard in its use. Isn't it strange that the catalyst not only allows the destruction of his species (the reapers), but furthermore guides Shepard by informing him/her on the different types of eradication?

In my opinion, looking at the evidence, it's clear that the crucible is part of the cycle - perhaps designed by the creators of the reapers (hereon referred to as just "the creators") in order to determine when the reapers would no longer be able to enforce order. In effect, the crucible is a fail-safe mechanism - one that allows the continuity of order in the galaxy, even if the reapers are no longer able to keep order.

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Next, the catalyst. I saw this brought up in another thread, and it got my brain going. What is the Catalyst? In the game, the catalyst is portayed by the child who shows up in Shepard's dreams. At first, I thought it was an AI program made by the creators to maintain oversight. Parsing the conversation between Shepard and the catalyst more closely, however, I don't think that this is the case.

No, the citadel is part of me

An interesting line. I first interpreted this as "No, I am a part of the citadel", but it's clearly the other way around. What makes this more confusing is the fact that "the citadel is my [the catalyst's] home". Indeed, it seems like the catalyst is something that is borader in scope than the citadel, yet remains inside it as well. Is the catalyst an idea? The combined consciousness of the reapers? I'm not sure.

I'm not sure what to think of this, however, it seems like the catalyst is the creator of all life in the galaxy, or atleast life as we understand it in the Mass Effect fiction. Perhaps he was a member of the first cycle - perhaps he represents the consciousness of the first species to "ascend" to reaperhood (more on this in a bit). Indeed his language and tone during his conversation with shep seems to support this. He says that the reapers are his "solution" to this issue of chaos, indicating that he feels some degree of ownership over the galaxy, and the problems associated with it.

At the same time, he also states that "we found a way to stop that from happening. A way to restore order for the next cycle," suggesting that he is, in fact, the combined consciousness of the reapers. I'm not sure if the shift between "I" and "we", "they" and "us" (referring to the reapers) is intentional (which emphasizes the "individual, yet unified" nature of the reapers), or whether it's an editorial oversight. In any case, I don't think the Catalyst is some sort of AI program. It seems like something more than that, but I can't place my finger on what exactly that is.

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The Reapers

As many of us suspected from previous games, Reapers are mechanized shells which house the organic consciousness of an entire species. Their role in the destruction and harvest of a cycle, however, is strange to me. 

• Why bother containing the essence of a species in reaper form, if it is under the control of the the catalyst - same as every other reaper? In addition, there's no clear distinction between each reaper body (all have a squid shape, use the same weaponry). So why go through all the trouble of harvesting a species if there's no use for that biodiversity?
  
• In regards to the synthesis ending - aren't reapers already a synthesis of organic and synthetic beings? What's the difference (in principle) between a reaper and the people who survive after the "green" ending?

Perhaps the reapers are meant to be truly lovecraftian, in the sense that we can't comprehend their reasons for harvesting and conjoining organics in "immortal machine bodies". Perhaps it's an effort to preserve biodiversity in the galaxy - perhaps it's an effort by a extra-galatic entity to control our own.

Anyway, those are my thoughts.

Modifié par MrChowderClam, 10 mars 2012 - 07:31 .

[QuirkyGroundhog]

Whatever the Catalyst is or represents decides that synthetics and organics can never live in peace, created will always destroy creator. So they create the Cycle to preserve civilizations in Reaper form. Is it weird that they preserved civilizations in the same things they use to cull civilizations? Yeah, but what can you do.

The Cycle can't work forever, life adapts, so the Catalyst sets up the Crucible as a sort of test. When organics finally manage to build and activate it, it means the Cycle won't work anymore. Organics THINK it's a weapon passed down to kill the Reapers. This is a purposeful misconception. Once it's activated a new, non-Cycle solution must be chosen by the organics, who are deemed ready for self determination.

As to what the Catalyst is? No clue.

[manwiththemachinegun]

The catalyst is the first anti-spiral.

This is fact.

[MPSai]

I think the catalyst showing up as the kid was foreshadowed in the Geth Consensus. I think it was just taking a form that made sense to Shepard's brain. At least I think that's what it meant, if the writers were clever.

But the three choices are a little shoe-horned. An injured, delirious and scared Shepard just seems to be looking for an answer.

The Catalyst being an AI really should have been explained. Where they from a cycle where AIs reached that high of an intelligence? Have the machines just been making themselves better? And what the ****, we want to stop synthetic life from destroying organic life by having synthetic life destroy organic life. Honestly, that part of it I think just wasn't thought through very well.


Not to mention the reapers are hyper-intelligent, but in two endings they can just be taken over and have their minds changed instantly. Isn't that just indoctrinating them? Ugh. I'm not pissed at the endings but the more I think about them the more it just seems really lazy.

[MrChowderClam]

QuirkyGroundhog wrote...
Whatever the Catalyst is or represents decides that synthetics and organics can never live in peace, created will always destroy creator. So they create the Cycle to preserve civilizations in Reaper form. Is it weird that they preserved civilizations in the same things they use to cull civilizations? Yeah, but what can you do.

Right, but why bother preserving them at all? What's the use? Do they plan to re-populate the galaxy when the cycle is finally broken? I don't see why it's important to preserve civilizations, if they're going to develop under the same paths anyway. 

QuirkyGroundhog wrote... 
The Cycle can't work forever, life adapts, so the Catalyst sets up the Crucible as a sort of test. When organics finally manage to build and activate it, it means the Cycle won't work anymore. Organics THINK it's a weapon passed down to kill the Reapers. This is a purposeful misconception. Once it's activated a new, non-Cycle solution must be chosen by the organics, who are deemed ready for self determination.

Yes, this is what I think as well. It's purposely planted at the beginning of each cycle as a test to see if the reapers will succeed or fail, which is why I'm not so sure that the Catalyst is the conscious of the reapers. The reapers could just as easily prevent the cycle from being disrupted by simply not providing the crucible.

[Der Estr Bune]

MrChowderClam wrote...

[*]The crucible requires the catalyst to fire. An interesting contradiction, given that the catalyst is revealed as the master of the reapers. Odd that the very component required to fire the crucible is also in charge of the species that the weapon will destroy.

Not too weird, really, given that the catalyst's devotion isn't to the Reapers themselves, but to the cycle which he admits the Reapers are not really enough to enforce anymore.

MrChowderClam wrote... 

[*]The crucible is said to be passed down through cycles. However, it seems highly unlikely that such knowledge could be passed down through hundreds of cycles without being detected and eradicated by the reapers.

Eh, if knowledge is just left in dormant pack for people to find, it's hard to think that the Reapers could find it. Also, a lot of things were clearly intentionally left to allow the next species to develop, so it's not hard to imagine this sort of knowledge slipping under the radar (keep in mind, OUR galaxy didn't find it until the Reapers were knocking on the door already)

MrChowderClam wrote... 
The catalyst has an uncanny understanding of what the crucible is meant to do, even going as far to guide shepard in its use. Isn't it strange that the catalyst not only allows the destruction of his species (the reapers), but furthermore guides Shepard by informing him/her on the different types of eradication?[*][/list]In my opinion, looking at the evidence, it's clear that the crucible is part of the cycle - perhaps designed by the creators of the reapers (hereon referred to as just "the creators") in order to determine when the reapers would no longer be able to enforce order. In effect, the crucible is a fail-safe mechanism - one that allows the continuity of order in the galaxy, even if the reapers are no longer able to keep order.

I don't really think that's true. The Reapers are just tools for continuing the cycle.
Not even touching the Catalyst itself.

MrChowderClam wrote... 

[*]Why bother containing the essence of a species in reaper form, if it is under control of the protocols established by the catalyst - same as every other reaper? In addition, there's no clear distinction between each reaper body (all have a squid shape, use the same weaponry). So why go through all the trouble of harvesting a species if there's no use for that biodiversity?

You can have biodiversity in non-physical ways too.

Modifié par Der Estr Bune, 10 mars 2012 - 07:37 .

[John Locke N7]

the reason why some reaper are different is because of the original dark matter plot.

because that got scrubbed so did an answer to why some reapers look different

[QuirkyGroundhog]

MrChowderClam wrote...

QuirkyGroundhog wrote...
Whatever the Catalyst is or represents decides that synthetics and organics can never live in peace, created will always destroy creator. So they create the Cycle to preserve civilizations in Reaper form. Is it weird that they preserved civilizations in the same things they use to cull civilizations? Yeah, but what can you do.

Right, but why bother preserving them at all? What's the use? Do they plan to re-populate the galaxy when the cycle is finally broken? I don't see why it's important to preserve civilizations, if they're going to develop under the same paths anyway.

Well that's sort of what Shepard says, right? "We don't want to be preserved, we want a future!"

Catalyst seems to think being preserved as a sort of genetic avatar is preferable to extinction. You can disagree, I certainly do, but it's his/its opinion.

[MrChowderClam]

MPSai wrote...

The Catalyst being an AI really should have been explained. Where they from a cycle where AIs reached that high of an intelligence? Have the machines just been making themselves better? And what the ****, we want to stop synthetic life from destroying organic life by having synthetic life destroy organic life. Honestly, that part of it I think just wasn't thought through very well.

I'm not sure the catalyst is an AI - I'm starting to lean more towards a creator, or collective consciousness of the reapers. As for reapers destroying organic life - it makes sense. Since reapers are not true AI's (Legion states that when "we touched it's minds. We perceived they were different from ours. but could not tell how"), It's organics making sure that synthetics never completely destroy organic life. In many ways, the reapers are a force of nature (in the literal sense of the word - as a way of keeping balance and order).

[MrChowderClam]

Der Estr Bune wrote...

MrChowderClam wrote... 

In my opinion, looking at the evidence, it's clear that the crucible is part of the cycle - perhaps designed by the creators of the reapers (hereon referred to as just "the creators") in order to determine when the reapers would no longer be able to enforce order. In effect, the crucible is a fail-safe mechanism - one that allows the continuity of order in the galaxy, even if the reapers are no longer able to keep order.

I don't really think that's true. The Reapers are just tools for continuing the cycle.Not even touching the Catalyst itself.

But at the same time, the crucible says "we" and "us" when referring to the reapers. (see: ), suggesting that it is a reaper (or at least part of the same entity).

Modifié par MrChowderClam, 10 mars 2012 - 07:45 .

[MrChowderClam]

QuirkyGroundhog wrote...

MrChowderClam wrote...

Right, but why bother preserving them at all? What's the use? Do they plan to re-populate the galaxy when the cycle is finally broken? I don't see why it's important to preserve civilizations, if they're going to develop under the same paths anyway.

Well that's sort of what Shepard says, right? "We don't want to be preserved, we want a future!"

Catalyst seems to think being preserved as a sort of genetic avatar is preferable to extinction. You can disagree, I certainly do, but it's his/its opinion.

True, and I certainly agree that the catalyst thinks (or rather, knows) that becoming a reaper is better than extinction (see: ). I'm just not sure why. It's not explained very explicitly (perhaps purposefully so).

[MPSai]

MrChowderClam wrote...

MPSai wrote...

The Catalyst being an AI really should have been explained. Where they from a cycle where AIs reached that high of an intelligence? Have the machines just been making themselves better? And what the ****, we want to stop synthetic life from destroying organic life by having synthetic life destroy organic life. Honestly, that part of it I think just wasn't thought through very well.

I'm not sure the catalyst is an AI - I'm starting to lean more towards a creator, or collective consciousness of the reapers. As for reapers destroying organic life - it makes sense. Since reapers are not true AI's (Legion states that when "we touched it's minds. We perceived they were different from ours. but could not tell how"), It's organics making sure that synthetics never completely destroy organic life. In many ways, the reapers are a force of nature (in the literal sense of the word - as a way of keeping balance and order).

But the reapers are still machines. Everything about them is mechanical and they convert organic life into mechanical/synthetic. What else could it be but an AI? There had been some talk in the game about sythentic life reaching almost a deity status. Though just throwing in something religious-like for the sake of pretending you have symbolism is just beeeehhh 

[Der Estr Bune]

MrChowderClam wrote...

But at the same time, the crucible says "we" and "us" when referring to the reapers. (see: ), suggesting that it is a reaper (or at least part of the same entity).

Eh. What is says is that they made the Reapers from all species. I think he's sort of always speaking in plural 2nd person (the Royal We, more or less), so I can see where you're coming from, but that's not the impression I get from the dialogue.

[QuirkyGroundhog]

I'm fine with the Catalyst being some higher form of life, be it synthetic, organic, evolutionary, or what have you. I mean, it's fun to speculate, but I'm content with that unknown.

[CajunRexShepard]

All other sci-fi and Lovecraftian references aside, the endings still don't make sense with regard to the reapers and the so-called 'catalyst' and the last cut scene involving the Illusive man, which echoed quite a bit of the end conversation with Saren in ME1.

Not getting into the value or quality of the endings here, I have dealt with that in numerous other threads. However, I would have liked *some* explanation as to what the reapers were, where they came from, and WHY the cycle needs to be continued no matter what. To me, it just seemed like even *they* no longer knew why they are doing what they do, they just *do* it because it is their primary programming. Also, I get that the mass effect fields, the citadel, etc were the basis of all high technology, but surely every species was developing on it's own technological bent before they made these discoveries. Why were all these things suddenly abandonded without question to trust tech they cannot replicate or fully understand?

As far as the Catalyst itself- it seemed to me to be some sort of collective synthetic consciousness, or a God-Analogue for organics, that fears its own creations or wards becoming a threat to existence itself- so they must be knocked back to square one at regular intervals in order to prevent true ascension- or true destruction. I actually frown upon that description and hope it isn't true as I do not normally like to infuse metaphysical or religious theory into games, which are my escape.

The Reapers themselves- the 'harvesting' mechanic seems as much a psychological tactic and a plot device as an actual mode of reproduction, or preservation... or, as put by a Reaper itself, 'Salvation through destruction.' How this salvation is attained is unclear, as all reapers seem to be identical (albeit differently sized) automatons with a single minded goal. Yet each cycle they leave *just* enough empirical evidence of the cycle before, along with a fully functional and ready to go Citadel, to make one wonder if they tire of their role and somehow, deep down, WANT to fail eventually, and free them from the monotony of 'order', which is just another word for 'control'.

In short, I believe the ending tried to get too 'deep' and philosophical, when all the majority of the players... scratch that, I will not speak for anyone outside myself. IMO, the ending tried to be too deep and philosophical when all I wanted was to retire the trilogy with my LI and walk away with a wave and a salute and my head held high, and wait to see what other games this universe may inspire, and eventually spend tons of money playing those as well.

[Dreogan]

The catalyst is space-jesus. This is immutable.

[MrChowderClam]

MPSai wrote...

MrChowderClam wrote...

I'm not sure the catalyst is an AI - I'm starting to lean more towards a creator, or collective consciousness of the reapers. As for reapers destroying organic life - it makes sense. Since reapers are not true AI's (Legion states that when "we touched it's minds. We perceived they were different from ours. but could not tell how"), It's organics making sure that synthetics never completely destroy organic life. In many ways, the reapers are a force of nature (in the literal sense of the word - as a way of keeping balance and order).

But the reapers are still machines. Everything about them is mechanical and they convert organic life into mechanical/synthetic. What else could it be but an AI? There had been some talk in the game about sythentic life reaching almost a deity status. Though just throwing in something religious-like for the sake of pretending you have symbolism is just beeeehhh 

I agree, they are mechanical shells, but their consciousness is organic in nature - this is clear from the harvest of humans at the collector base, and from this conversation with Legion: 
. Which is one of the reasons I was confused with the merge ending - aren't organic and synthetic life already fused when in reaper form?

As for the god-tier "deity status" of a creator - I don't think that the concept of a creator is necessarily new to the series, o. The protheans and salarians are said to have dabbled in the acceleration of certain species. It's not too far of a stretch to assume that more advanced species in the universe would have dabbled with the creation of organic life, and new species.

[MrChowderClam]

Der Estr Bune wrote...

MrChowderClam wrote...

But at the same time, the crucible says "we" and "us" when referring to the reapers. (see: ), suggesting that it is a reaper (or at least part of the same entity).

Eh. What is says is that they made the Reapers from all species. I think he's sort of always speaking in plural 2nd person (the Royal We, more or less), so I can see where you're coming from, but that's not the impression I get from the dialogue.

I hadn't considered it being used in that sense (maybe I'm thinking too much about the semantics). In any case, I can definitely see that, although I still think that the catalyst is a reaper in some form or another.

It's good to see different perspectives on this.

[Abirn]

If the citadel is part of the catalyst then why the hell didn't it just open the relay trap before ME1. What was the whole point of the series then. Why was sovereign even needed. The catalyst could have just opened the citadel relay whenever it felt like.

[MPSai]

CajunRexShepard wrote...
In short, I believe the ending tried to get too 'deep' and philosophical, when all the majority of the players... scratch that, I will not speak for anyone outside myself. IMO, the ending tried to be too deep and philosophical when all I wanted was to retire the trilogy with my LI and walk away with a wave and a salute and my head held high, and wait to see what other games this universe may inspire, and eventually spend tons of money playing those as well.

I think the ending thought it was being deep and philosophical, but it just kind of rang hollow to me. Just making no sense and throwing in some religious symbolism doesn't make it deep. 

[MrChowderClam]

CajunRexShepard wrote...

Not getting into the value or quality of the endings here, I have dealt with that in numerous other threads. However, I would have liked *some* explanation as to what the reapers were, where they came from, and WHY the cycle needs to be continued no matter what. To me, it just seemed like even *they* no longer knew why they are doing what they do, they just *do* it because it is their primary programming.

Yes, I agree wholeheartedly. I found the conversation with the catalyst to be lacking in terms of the insight it provided on the reapers - specifically (as you mention) the origin of the reapers, and the reason behind the perpetual cycle. The catalyst mentions that the created will always want to destroy the creators, but we know this is not the case

CajunRexShepard wrote... 

Also, I get that the mass effect fields, the citadel, etc were the basis of all high technology, but surely every species was developing on it's own technological bent before they made these discoveries. Why were all these things suddenly abandonded without question to trust tech they cannot replicate or fully understand?

I think that it's assumed that most species followed the path of least resistance and simply used the technology without understanding it fully. It's highly unlikely that a civilization would have developed technology that fulfilled the same purpose as the mass relays without first discovering the relays themelves.

CajunRexShepard wrote...  

The Reapers themselves- the 'harvesting' mechanic seems as much a psychological tactic and a plot device as an actual mode of reproduction, or preservation... or, as put by a Reaper itself, 'Salvation through destruction.' How this salvation is attained is unclear, as all reapers seem to be identical (albeit differently sized) automatons with a single minded goal. Yet each cycle they leave *just* enough empirical evidence of the cycle before, along with a fully functional and ready to go Citadel, to make one wonder if they tire of their role and somehow, deep down, WANT to fail eventually, and free them from the monotony of 'order', which is just another word for 'control'.

Some good stuff here. Maybe the reapers really do think they are doing the right thing by preserving species - maybe it's the force that drives them. I hadn't considered the psyche of the reapers themselves - maybe an individual's wants and needs change once it is fused with others within a reaper shell. Or maybe it's just a plot device, like you say .

[Khaos2000]

False. Advertising. They said from the get go our choices would matter. They didn't. They didn't matter one iota. The endings are a joke, and the fact that they were pretty much the same except for a color scheme? That was even worse. I have never, ever, been this disappointed... well check that, I was this disappointed once before. Alien Ressurection. Brilliant movie up till the last 15-20 minutes. ME3 was a great game, up till the ending. Which completely and utterly discounted everything we'd done.


P.S. So this discussion is moot, it has no bearing, it won't make sense. They slaughtered the whole story and franchise with that ending. Trying to make sense of it is like trying to find the meaning of life, the universe, and everything. The answer is 42, simply because it's an arbitrary number.

Modifié par Khaos2000, 10 mars 2012 - 08:49 .

[MrChowderClam]

Khaos2000 wrote...

P.S. So this discussion is moot, it has no bearing, it won't make sense. They slaughtered the whole story and franchise with that ending. Trying to make sense of it is like trying to find the meaning of life, the universe, and everything. The answer is 42, simply because it's an arbitrary number.

While I understand that you're angry over the ending, I would appreciate it if you too could understand that some of us wish to discuss the ending and try to make sense of it as well. I would appreciate it if you wouldn't bash on my analysis as "moot" and something with "no bearing" that "won't make sense". I understand where you're coming from. Can you be decent enough to do the same for me?

[TeffexPope]

CajunRexShepard wrote...



The Reapers themselves- the 'harvesting' mechanic seems as much a psychological tactic and a plot device as an actual mode of reproduction, or preservation... or, as put by a Reaper itself, 'Salvation through destruction.' How this salvation is attained is unclear, as all reapers seem to be identical (albeit differently sized) automatons with a single minded goal. Yet each cycle they leave *just* enough empirical evidence of the cycle before, along with a fully functional and ready to go Citadel, to make one wonder if they tire of their role and somehow, deep down, WANT to fail eventually, and free them from the monotony of 'order', which is just another word for 'control'.

Throughout the first two games, the Reapers seem like an omniscient, unstoppable force. In the third game you start to see some of their vulnerabilities as you watch some of them die from something other than the might of all the fleets on one ship, as was the case with Sovereign. I think you may be onto something. When you talk to the reaper on Rannoch, he sounds exactly like Sovereign (his words, not his voice). His voice also sounds a bit...bored. Could be it cant believe its talking to a lowly scurrying organic. Could be the nature of the way his voice sounds. And then when I got to the Catalyst, and heard him say pretty much the exact same thing as Sovereign and the Rannoch reaper, the Reapers started to seem less like immortal, unbeatable gods and more like vulnerable pawns. Which I supose is what they are. But, the whole thing doesn't seem to make sense. The devs put so much work into the lore and background of the game - what with the codex, planet descriptions, making a realistic sci fi world and explaining a lot of the tech in the game. And so the most important part of the series, the Reapers, is still at the end of the trilogy, a complete mystery? Wow. That's unbelievable. The ending seems like it has no place in the mass effect series. It's as if the devs working on the game were evicted when they put in the trench run, and the people that replaced them took over from that point and decided to have Harbinger half-kill you and then they made the ending to get the game over with and make a game of their own.

One big problem I have, not only do we learn almost nothing about the Reapers - Harbinger has zero role in the game other than starting off the much debated ending by trying to vaporize you. You talk to the reaper on Rannoch, but Harbinger has zero lines in the game. That makes no sense. Especially since he has his own codex entry. He's believed to be the
oldest and most powerful reaper. And he has no visible role in the game
until the end. And dark energy has no role in the game either. Mentioned by Parasini on Illium and ME 2 and the reason why Tali doesn't join you immediately, and its completely swept aside. Was that from people complaning about the leaked script? Why would they care about people who didn't care enough about the game series to wait until the game came out and see everything unfold for themselves in game?

Modifié par TeffexPope, 10 mars 2012 - 09:00 .

[Nineteen]

 Maybe the Catalyst was the first successful civilization to achieve Synthesis?

They started out as a normal organic civilization, that developed AI's and eventually the Mass Relay technology. (Since they are the first organic civilization, the would have unlimited time to develop this tech, much longer than 50,000 years.) Their AI's rebelled like the geth did, and a long, bloody war ensued across the galaxy. This finally ended when they created the Synthesis technology now present in the Crucible, changing the organics into the Catalyst and the synthetics into the Reapers, merging their minds together.

Then for some reason I haven't made up yet, the Reapers and the Catalyst decided they would let more organic life thrive until it was ready to be Synthesized again. They would constantly test the organic life by challenging them to build the Crucible. The Reapers/Catalyst would then let this civilization, who they now deem worthy, choose how to live out their destiny. By joining in Synthesis, by destroying all synthetic life, or peace between organics and synthetics.

Modifié par Nineteen, 10 mars 2012 - 09:28 .