Hm, my though always was that reapers are some kind of Tralfamadorians from Kurt Vonnegut books.
"The Tralfamadorians were originally developed by super-beings who built them to give meaning to their own lives. Unable to achieve this task, the precursor race used the Tralfamadorians instead to extinguish themselves."
I cant' find original quote from book, i've read it in russian.
So reapers come to galaxy and start war in which all races must fight for their life and find meaning of their existence. If races of galaxy forget about differences and unite than cycle can be over, because machines' goals are accomplished. Reapers turn off, everyones happy.
Or may be they are big bad guys from Andromeda galaxy.
Making sense of the reapers, crucible, catalyst - an objective discussion about the ending
Débuté par
MrChowderClam
, mars 10 2012 07:26
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#27
Posté 10 mars 2012 - 09:58
Carmin_Steele
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Interesting thoughts, but, the more I try and figure out how the pieces fit together, the less sense the whole thing makes to me.
TeffexPope's last paragraph is something that I really wondered about too. Dark Energy? Haestrom's star, the Noveria experiments.. nothing answered or explained. ( Didn't read the leaked script, though, seeming how rushed and homogeneous the endings were, maybe they did cram it in because of the script? *shrug* )
It just... I'm confused really. The Catalyst says that the merging is the final evolution, the merging of organics and synthetics is 'perfect'. It seems to me that they were waiting for the best person ever to finally achieve their 'ascension'. Perhaps the Reapers were being made, harvested and all as an attempt to reach that goal? The Catalyst says, "The Cruicible has changed me" and opened up the ability to do the merge-y thing. It leaves me thinking that the Reapers have been following their order to maintain order and merge life as best they can, until someone finally finishes it all... but.. that then leaves more questions.
Who built it?
Who designed it?
Are the Reapers 'god'? ( Listening to the conversation again, every time the Catalyst refers to the Reapers, he says We. "Just as we left you alone the last time we were here". )
Crazy idea time. No matter what Shepard chooses, the energy will destroy the Mass relays -and- YOUR CYCLE WILL END. It ends THIS cycle. Tada, Shepard performed exactly what the Reapers wanted! 1.) The Collectors wanted Shepards body, specifically... why? Now we know. They wanted it so they could merge all life. 2.) Shepard now, in choosing any of the options, finally destroys all organic life, a mistake, chaos, by destroying the relays and the systems they're placed in. Thereby bringing about the "Catalyst's New Plan". Reapers don't work anymore, now this organic can finally bring order by killing everything. No more chaos!
TeffexPope's last paragraph is something that I really wondered about too. Dark Energy? Haestrom's star, the Noveria experiments.. nothing answered or explained. ( Didn't read the leaked script, though, seeming how rushed and homogeneous the endings were, maybe they did cram it in because of the script? *shrug* )
It just... I'm confused really. The Catalyst says that the merging is the final evolution, the merging of organics and synthetics is 'perfect'. It seems to me that they were waiting for the best person ever to finally achieve their 'ascension'. Perhaps the Reapers were being made, harvested and all as an attempt to reach that goal? The Catalyst says, "The Cruicible has changed me" and opened up the ability to do the merge-y thing. It leaves me thinking that the Reapers have been following their order to maintain order and merge life as best they can, until someone finally finishes it all... but.. that then leaves more questions.
Who built it?
Who designed it?
Are the Reapers 'god'? ( Listening to the conversation again, every time the Catalyst refers to the Reapers, he says We. "Just as we left you alone the last time we were here". )
Crazy idea time. No matter what Shepard chooses, the energy will destroy the Mass relays -and- YOUR CYCLE WILL END. It ends THIS cycle. Tada, Shepard performed exactly what the Reapers wanted! 1.) The Collectors wanted Shepards body, specifically... why? Now we know. They wanted it so they could merge all life. 2.) Shepard now, in choosing any of the options, finally destroys all organic life, a mistake, chaos, by destroying the relays and the systems they're placed in. Thereby bringing about the "Catalyst's New Plan". Reapers don't work anymore, now this organic can finally bring order by killing everything. No more chaos!
#28
Posté 10 mars 2012 - 11:46
KillerHappyFace
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My opinion:
-I'd guess that absorbing a species allows the Reaper to act on behalf of their species. The Reaper is a protective shell for the civilization. Maybe the Reapers started as a doomsday contingency against an ancient synthetic civilization. Maybe, after securing victory, something went wrong. The Reapers themselves went rogue, aiming to absorb and thus protect every advanced civilization from AI's. Like giant prawn-shaped Brainiacs from Superman.
-Reapers are controlled by a centralized intelligence. I have no real evidence but they sure seem to act that way.
-The Crucible is indeed a Reaper design. The Catalyst all but says it when describing it as a gauge of the cycle's performance.
-I like to think that the Kid is an indoctrinated hallucination, which explains how it can trouble even the most ruthless earthborn Shpard. Also explains how the Catalyst knows to take that shape.
-The Catalyst might control the Reapers and could possibly also be Harbinger. As such he was presumably once a member of the species that created the Reapers. (This is a logical step from the Crucible being a Reaper design)
-The Control ending turns Shepard into the next Catalyst/Harbinger. I suppose that it's probable Shepard will re-enact the cycle after stewing and losing connection to his/her humanity after a few thousand years.
-The Destroy ending is made available by the Catalyst only because it's apparant the cycle is failing. Even if Shepard re-enacts the cycle it's quite possible the next few cycles will weaken/destroy the Reapers. Thus the Catalyst takes its chances at legitimately destroying all synthetics now, hoping that the future won't bring more.
-The Synthesis ending is bull****. Pseudo-sciency many degrees above everything else in the series. Downright bizarre. Even its justifications are simply incorrect -- a hybrid being is still capable of creating synthetic races that can rebel.
-I'd guess that absorbing a species allows the Reaper to act on behalf of their species. The Reaper is a protective shell for the civilization. Maybe the Reapers started as a doomsday contingency against an ancient synthetic civilization. Maybe, after securing victory, something went wrong. The Reapers themselves went rogue, aiming to absorb and thus protect every advanced civilization from AI's. Like giant prawn-shaped Brainiacs from Superman.
-Reapers are controlled by a centralized intelligence. I have no real evidence but they sure seem to act that way.
-The Crucible is indeed a Reaper design. The Catalyst all but says it when describing it as a gauge of the cycle's performance.
-I like to think that the Kid is an indoctrinated hallucination, which explains how it can trouble even the most ruthless earthborn Shpard. Also explains how the Catalyst knows to take that shape.
-The Catalyst might control the Reapers and could possibly also be Harbinger. As such he was presumably once a member of the species that created the Reapers. (This is a logical step from the Crucible being a Reaper design)
-The Control ending turns Shepard into the next Catalyst/Harbinger. I suppose that it's probable Shepard will re-enact the cycle after stewing and losing connection to his/her humanity after a few thousand years.
-The Destroy ending is made available by the Catalyst only because it's apparant the cycle is failing. Even if Shepard re-enacts the cycle it's quite possible the next few cycles will weaken/destroy the Reapers. Thus the Catalyst takes its chances at legitimately destroying all synthetics now, hoping that the future won't bring more.
-The Synthesis ending is bull****. Pseudo-sciency many degrees above everything else in the series. Downright bizarre. Even its justifications are simply incorrect -- a hybrid being is still capable of creating synthetic races that can rebel.
Modifié par KillerHappyFace, 10 mars 2012 - 11:57 .
#29
Posté 10 mars 2012 - 12:54
Mav4061
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I believe that the Catalyst is an AI, possibly the first AI ever created. It was probably created as an AI for the Citadel, hence the reason it says that the Citadel is its home and that the Citadel is a part of itself. Through circumstances much like the Quarians and Geth, it rebelled against its creators. As other organic life evolved and became more intelligent, the same process occured with organic life creating synthetic life and then subsequently being destroyed by it. As AI's only process things with logic and not emotion it saw this as chaotic and lacking order. I believe it created the Reapers as a "galactic reset button" to bring what it considers order to the galaxy. It didn't just completely wipe out all organic life for the same reason the Geth didn't wipe out the Quarians, it couldn't forsee the consequences for doing so and therefor it was not a logical decision. In the Synthesis ending the Reapers aren't destroyed by the Crucible because they themselves are the pinnacle of evolution, an organic/synthetic hybrid. Harvesting these intelligent species ensures that they continue to live on as the pinnacle of evolution in Reaper form as well as preventing them from becoming so advanced that they end up creating synthetic beings that will wipe out all organic life.
#30
Posté 10 mars 2012 - 03:35
MPSai
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KillerHappyFace wrote...
-The Control ending turns Shepard into the next Catalyst/Harbinger. I suppose that it's probable Shepard will re-enact the cycle after stewing and losing connection to his/her humanity after a few thousand years.
That's why I didn't choose that one. If Shepard loses everything s/he is whose to say which direction the Reapers will go in. What kind of command did Shepard give them before being completely annihilated anyway?
-The Synthesis ending is bull****. Pseudo-sciency many degrees above everything else in the series. Downright bizarre. Even its justifications are simply incorrect -- a hybrid being is still capable of creating synthetic races that can rebel.
It really really is. I wasn't quite expecting the height of stupidity it reached. I picked that one because it sounded like the solution my Shepard would reach, she was all about sythetics and organics being able to live together. But once I saw the robo DNA in the leaves at the end I was like "Really? We're really doing this?" And then Joker kind of looked terrifying, I got a bit of a "what have I done" feeling.
#31
Posté 10 mars 2012 - 04:00
scoville.unit
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What didn't make sense to me was that the cycle seemed to be inconsistent with itself. Synthetics will rebel against organics because they hate chaos. Because that is what they all do apparently. Okay - that doesn't really make sense to me - organic life isn't the sole source of chaos or even the main source of chaos by any measure but those are the rules that we are playing with now. (This isn't really shown by the behaviors of synthetics in the game, but I guess the reapers and the space god say so...)
So if the purpose of the cycle is to preserve organic life - why build the relays and offer short cuts to organic species? That seems like it would hasten the creation of synthetics. And also the ability of the synthetics to get on with their apparent life's work, the destruction of all organic life. Wouldn't the more effective/less chaotic solution be to just let the organic species remain planet/system bound?
(These are actually questions - so if someone has a logical answer, and maybe it is obvious and I am not thinking it through - I'd love to hear it.)
So if the purpose of the cycle is to preserve organic life - why build the relays and offer short cuts to organic species? That seems like it would hasten the creation of synthetics. And also the ability of the synthetics to get on with their apparent life's work, the destruction of all organic life. Wouldn't the more effective/less chaotic solution be to just let the organic species remain planet/system bound?
(These are actually questions - so if someone has a logical answer, and maybe it is obvious and I am not thinking it through - I'd love to hear it.)
#32
Posté 10 mars 2012 - 04:08
BlackDragonBane
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The Catalyst has to be some sort of hyper-advanced AI. It behaves within a set of parameters and controls the Reapers in such a manner. I believe their origins lay with the very first galactic civilization. If you think about the purpose of the Reapers after the Catalyst's limited explaination and the conversations with Sovreign and Harbinger, then look at the situation between the Geth and the Quarin, there is a glimmer of logic.
The Reapers purpose wasn't to wipe out all the advanced civilizations just to harvest them, but to prevent civilizations from advancing so far where they created their own hyper-advanced AIs and eventually turn on them in fear. The situation with the Geth and Quarin, the Quarin turned on the Geth because a single Geth started behaving as if it were a true organic and that terrified them, so they attacked and the Geth rebelled and drove them off their home planet, as shown by the trip through the Geth server with Legion.
After killing the Reaper on the Quarin homeworld, Legion attempts to upload a modified version of the Reaper code that will not only free the geth from the Reaper/Catalyst's control, but also give them a higher functionality, placing them back on par with organics, something you can stop or continue. If you didn't rescue the Admiral and don't stop the upload, the Geth will wipe out the Flotilla in self-defense and Tali will commit suicide.
Imagine that on a GALACTIC scale now. There would be devastation across all plaents, some left barren and completely inhospitable as both sides build more powerful weapons of mass destruction to wipe each other out. Perhaps this happened with the first galactic civilization or at least during its time, making a need for the Catalyst, the Reapers, the Citadel, and the Crucible. As others have stated before, the Crucible was more of the Catalyst's way to gauge if the Reapers were no longer needed, that it's solution had finally stopped working. If all the advanced civilizations and synthetics could unite against one cause and survive, there was a chance of the cycle going in a completely different direction, nullifying for the need to 'preserve' the civilizations any more and truly leaving them to their own fates.
I haven't seen the destruction option or the control option as of yet, only the Synthesis and while it seems like a case of 'space-magic' I think that something as hyper-advanced as whatever built the Reapers and programmed the Catalys could come up with a pulse or whatever that was that could fuse DNA with synthetic material. Look at the Reapers, they're synthetic/organic hybrids and it's not explained at all how that is even feasible, aside from the fact that the organic material has to be melted down. As the analysis of the Collectors go, the Protheans genetic code was heavily modifed and rewritten and it seems like something only the Catalyst and the Reapers possess the knowledge to do.
I was disappointed with the lack of an epilogue and would like to know what happened with all of the fleets now that they're stranded in the Sol system. That kind of closure would have been nice, though given everything I decided, I think i can kind of guess at some possibilities with a hint of accuracy. I'm not all that upset I died at the end, though the conversation with Garrus (as my romance) and having a family just hit me right in the gut when I got to the end. Would also need a clear explaination as to not only how Joker managed to pick up the crew from London, but also why he jumped through a Relay into another system while avoid the pulse released by the Crucible, because the world they landed on is not in the Sol system.
Another thing I think that has people confused is the crew members you take with you on the final mission. I don't think they made it through the Conduit because they're not running in front of you and I didn't see them behind. Plus, if they had made it in, one of them would have contacted Shepard like Anderson did, unless Bioware is insinuating Harbinger killed them during its attack, which doesn't appear to be the case with the confusing ending involving the Normandy.
The Reapers purpose wasn't to wipe out all the advanced civilizations just to harvest them, but to prevent civilizations from advancing so far where they created their own hyper-advanced AIs and eventually turn on them in fear. The situation with the Geth and Quarin, the Quarin turned on the Geth because a single Geth started behaving as if it were a true organic and that terrified them, so they attacked and the Geth rebelled and drove them off their home planet, as shown by the trip through the Geth server with Legion.
After killing the Reaper on the Quarin homeworld, Legion attempts to upload a modified version of the Reaper code that will not only free the geth from the Reaper/Catalyst's control, but also give them a higher functionality, placing them back on par with organics, something you can stop or continue. If you didn't rescue the Admiral and don't stop the upload, the Geth will wipe out the Flotilla in self-defense and Tali will commit suicide.
Imagine that on a GALACTIC scale now. There would be devastation across all plaents, some left barren and completely inhospitable as both sides build more powerful weapons of mass destruction to wipe each other out. Perhaps this happened with the first galactic civilization or at least during its time, making a need for the Catalyst, the Reapers, the Citadel, and the Crucible. As others have stated before, the Crucible was more of the Catalyst's way to gauge if the Reapers were no longer needed, that it's solution had finally stopped working. If all the advanced civilizations and synthetics could unite against one cause and survive, there was a chance of the cycle going in a completely different direction, nullifying for the need to 'preserve' the civilizations any more and truly leaving them to their own fates.
I haven't seen the destruction option or the control option as of yet, only the Synthesis and while it seems like a case of 'space-magic' I think that something as hyper-advanced as whatever built the Reapers and programmed the Catalys could come up with a pulse or whatever that was that could fuse DNA with synthetic material. Look at the Reapers, they're synthetic/organic hybrids and it's not explained at all how that is even feasible, aside from the fact that the organic material has to be melted down. As the analysis of the Collectors go, the Protheans genetic code was heavily modifed and rewritten and it seems like something only the Catalyst and the Reapers possess the knowledge to do.
I was disappointed with the lack of an epilogue and would like to know what happened with all of the fleets now that they're stranded in the Sol system. That kind of closure would have been nice, though given everything I decided, I think i can kind of guess at some possibilities with a hint of accuracy. I'm not all that upset I died at the end, though the conversation with Garrus (as my romance) and having a family just hit me right in the gut when I got to the end. Would also need a clear explaination as to not only how Joker managed to pick up the crew from London, but also why he jumped through a Relay into another system while avoid the pulse released by the Crucible, because the world they landed on is not in the Sol system.
Another thing I think that has people confused is the crew members you take with you on the final mission. I don't think they made it through the Conduit because they're not running in front of you and I didn't see them behind. Plus, if they had made it in, one of them would have contacted Shepard like Anderson did, unless Bioware is insinuating Harbinger killed them during its attack, which doesn't appear to be the case with the confusing ending involving the Normandy.
#33
Posté 10 mars 2012 - 04:16
Paparob
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Modifié par Paparob, 10 mars 2012 - 04:17 .
#34
Posté 10 mars 2012 - 04:17
Paparob
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By the time most civilizations discover the Mass Relays they are at a point they could develop true AI in a couple centuries, which is rather small on the cosmic scale. This way although technological development is greatly accelerated civilizations are set along predicatable and easily controlled paths.scoville.unit wrote...
So if the purpose of the cycle is to preserve organic life - why build the relays and offer short cuts to organic species? That seems like it would hasten the creation of synthetics. And also the ability of the synthetics to get on with their apparent life's work, the destruction of all organic life. Wouldn't the more effective/less chaotic solution be to just let the organic species remain planet/system bound?
#35
Posté 10 mars 2012 - 05:19
Cerrydd
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I'm still wondering where the keepers fit in, since they're crucial to maintaining the Citadel.
#36
Posté 10 mars 2012 - 05:36
Sylvanfeather
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If you look at it literally, a crucible is defined as 'a severe test ' - no doubt about that. It took a galactic empire to build it and gaining the co-operation of that empire was no small task.
The Reapers had to be aware of this test but I think they believed the cycle was absolute truth. Creators would always be doomed to be overtaken by their created and chaos would always repeat itself. The races would never present the unified front it would take to create the crucible. But if there looked to be a moment when the cycle would fail, they actively intervened to prevent that because the cycle had to 'equal true'. In this cycle, they did that in the form of Saren and then the Illusive Man.
By connecting the device to the citadel, the crucible had been passed and the cycle had ended.
Next, catalyst is 'an agent that provokes or speeds significant change or action'. I think that is a very succint description of Shepard as a person. So if Shepard is the catalyst, who is the apparition on the Citadel and how is it able to appear as one of Shepard's memories? If this child-like apparition was a Reaper, or had Reaper consciousness, wouldn't it want this cycle to finish? Perhaps the apparition was merely a reflection of Shepard's own consciousness and the choice about who was right - Anderson or the Illusive Man? Would that make the synthesis choice Shepard's own realization that you neither control or destroy another species?
But given the dialog, that doesn't seem to be the right explaination for the catalyst. So, I'm still trying to figure out what it is.
The Reapers themselves are puzzling. They are supposed to be someting more than just a sentient machine but I also believe they still 'think' like a machine. There is only black and white for them, no grey area, no uncertainty.
Perhaps the Reapers were created in the first cycle, as the solution to preserve the essensce of life during an organic / synthetic war. Except that war was lost. It might explain why the Reapers only accept one certainty - it was proven by their own dominance in the first cycle.
Or, perhaps... they were created by some higher being intent on keeping the Milky Way in check.
The Reapers had to be aware of this test but I think they believed the cycle was absolute truth. Creators would always be doomed to be overtaken by their created and chaos would always repeat itself. The races would never present the unified front it would take to create the crucible. But if there looked to be a moment when the cycle would fail, they actively intervened to prevent that because the cycle had to 'equal true'. In this cycle, they did that in the form of Saren and then the Illusive Man.
By connecting the device to the citadel, the crucible had been passed and the cycle had ended.
Next, catalyst is 'an agent that provokes or speeds significant change or action'. I think that is a very succint description of Shepard as a person. So if Shepard is the catalyst, who is the apparition on the Citadel and how is it able to appear as one of Shepard's memories? If this child-like apparition was a Reaper, or had Reaper consciousness, wouldn't it want this cycle to finish? Perhaps the apparition was merely a reflection of Shepard's own consciousness and the choice about who was right - Anderson or the Illusive Man? Would that make the synthesis choice Shepard's own realization that you neither control or destroy another species?
But given the dialog, that doesn't seem to be the right explaination for the catalyst. So, I'm still trying to figure out what it is.
The Reapers themselves are puzzling. They are supposed to be someting more than just a sentient machine but I also believe they still 'think' like a machine. There is only black and white for them, no grey area, no uncertainty.
Perhaps the Reapers were created in the first cycle, as the solution to preserve the essensce of life during an organic / synthetic war. Except that war was lost. It might explain why the Reapers only accept one certainty - it was proven by their own dominance in the first cycle.
Or, perhaps... they were created by some higher being intent on keeping the Milky Way in check.
Modifié par Sylvanfeather, 10 mars 2012 - 05:38 .
#37
Posté 10 mars 2012 - 11:24
Mobius-Silent
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I think the "Catalyst" is the first Reaper, a whole race that _voluntarily_ chose to become a single hybrid entity. They did this as solution to a massive war with their synthetic creations. This single-star-ship-race was unstoppable and eliminated all the synthetic life in the galaxy. And then floated alone for thousands of years.
When new organic life finally recovered and developed technology the "catalyst" visited them to warn them of the dangers of AI, the young race feared the "god" that had arrived and obeyed it at first but eventually tried to attack, and were wiped out in retaliation.
Shocked at the genocide it had caused it retreated out of the galaxy to think about what to do. The resulting plan was "the cycle" where other races would be uplifted the way they had been to stop then from making the same mistakes. Eventually they created the mass relays and the citadel to ensure that each cycle progressed smoothly. The citadel was created from the chassis of the first reaper and still housed it's mind. As the first reaper/catalyst/citadel grew older it saw the harvesting process become more and more horrific and retreated from the spectacle. Capable of directing it's children but rarely doing so, leaving them to continue on the work of the cycle. It was only the action of Shepard that "woke it up"
When new organic life finally recovered and developed technology the "catalyst" visited them to warn them of the dangers of AI, the young race feared the "god" that had arrived and obeyed it at first but eventually tried to attack, and were wiped out in retaliation.
Shocked at the genocide it had caused it retreated out of the galaxy to think about what to do. The resulting plan was "the cycle" where other races would be uplifted the way they had been to stop then from making the same mistakes. Eventually they created the mass relays and the citadel to ensure that each cycle progressed smoothly. The citadel was created from the chassis of the first reaper and still housed it's mind. As the first reaper/catalyst/citadel grew older it saw the harvesting process become more and more horrific and retreated from the spectacle. Capable of directing it's children but rarely doing so, leaving them to continue on the work of the cycle. It was only the action of Shepard that "woke it up"
