59 réponses à ce sujet

[Phydeaux314]

Lilyas, judging by the archive creation dates for most of the game files, it looks like stuff was wrapped up at the end of January and that only minor changes were made for the first couple weeks of February.

My money is on the fellow being zero-day DLC because they ran out of time and needed to go gold, and he wasn't all the way done yet. I could be wrong, and it could have been a money-grubbing stunt forced down to stop piracy, but... shrug. Explanations!

[askanec]

I can confidently say that people who actually finishes ME3 are in the minority.

As you can see here, only 35% of people who bought Assassin's Creed finished the game. 40% of people who bought Assassin's Creed 2 finished the game. Less than 30% of people who bought the Grand Theft Auto 4 finished the game. These are all well-received and acclaimed games. The statistics are tracked through console achievements. Further down the article, it is mentioned the industry standard is between 5-10%.

Even if you hate the ending, I don't think many will deny the rest of the game is great. It took things people like about ME1 and ME2, and blended them well together. Many people who bought ME3 would likely not finish it. Making another ending is difficult, expensive and time-consuming. The events that happened in ME3 pointed towards the ending we got. Changing the ending would mean you need to change these earlier events too. 

If people wanted something simple like Anderson surviving, instead of getting killed off, that could be do-able, but I'm guessing people want much more than that.

Modifié par askanec, 10 mars 2012 - 11:57 .

[Hexxys]

Well, if the response had been more like 50/50 I'd say "no chance". But in most polls of sufficient sample size, we're looking at a good 80-90% dissatisfaction rate regarding the endings or lack thererof...

Beyond the typical "EA loves money" comment, Bioware seems to be one of only a few game studios that tries to do right by its fans. With that in mind, I'm actually somewhat certain that we'll be seeing something big from Bioware regarding the issue.

Modifié par Hexxys, 10 mars 2012 - 11:57 .

[Shinannigan]

As long as an articulate and reasonable line of discussion still prevails in a couple of months, once emotions have settled down and the "threats" of never buying another Bioware product will get fewer, there might be a chance of getting some modifications to the ending. However, it is highly unlikely that people will get a "happy ending". The writers made a conscious decision for the ending to be rather grim, for which I give them kudos, and changing that would steer untrue of what Bioware wanted to deliver. There is nothing wrong with not being able to have Shep and LI live happily ever after. I appreciate that that might be hard to accept for some, but then they are in a disagreement with the writing team that is so fundamental that I don't think it'll get settled.

I think it's more likely that future DLC will address some of the minor issues people have, for example a DLC that finishes the whole Dark Energy plotline foreshadowed in ME2. That doesn't even need to affect the endings, it would certainly be do-able in a separate content DLC.

Also, maybe there is a chance for Bioware to deliver an epilogue at some point, giving us an idea what effect our choices have for the future. However, I'd rather Bioware take their time with that and do it in a nice cinematic with voice over, rather than just giving us some text-screens as in Dragon Age Origins.

[Quiron-br]

Zero chance. They could just change/substitute some vídeos and dialogue lines and improve all endings or some of them but no... I don't believe.

We will see another note about how great the game is and a "thanks for the support" with a "deal with it" subliminar message, a kind of "I'm a genius, you (fans) are the problem" message.

Modifié par Quiron-br, 10 mars 2012 - 12:14 .

[Evil_medved]

Valve did it with portal, just re-writed ending coz players wanted Chell to be in the game.

[Shinannigan]

askanec wrote...

I can confidently say that people who actually finishes ME3 are in the minority.

As you can see here, only 35% of people who bought Assassin's Creed finished the game. 40% of people who bought Assassin's Creed 2 finished the game. Less than 30% of people who bought the Grand Theft Auto 4 finished the game. These are all well-received and acclaimed games. The statistics are tracked through console achievements. Further down the article, it is mentioned the industry standard is between 5-10%.

Even if you hate the ending, I don't think many will deny the rest of the game is great. It took things people like about ME1 and ME2, and blended them well together. Many people who bought ME3 would likely not finish it. Making another ending is difficult, expensive and time-consuming. The events that happened in ME3 pointed towards the ending we got. Changing the ending would mean you need to change these earlier events too. 

If people wanted something simple like Anderson surviving, instead of getting killed off, that could be do-able, but I'm guessing people want much more than that.

Well, you can't really compare Mass Effect to open-world games like Skyrim, Assassin's Creed and Grand Theft Auto. The latter kind of games don't rely mainly on story, you can have lots of fun just running/climbing/driving through the world. Mass Effect however is story driven, so playing it through to the end while enjoying the story is kind of the main point. So while not finishing open-world games doesn't inevitably mean that you lost interest in these games and can't enjoy them, not finishing a story-driven game means that you stopped caring for them at some point and will likely not care for future DLC or discussions about the endings, removing you from the calculation. I don't know the numbers, but I'm confident they are very different for Mass Effect than they are for the games you mentioned.

[Shinannigan]

Hexxys wrote...

Well, if the response had been more like 50/50 I'd say "no chance". But in most polls of sufficient sample size, we're looking at a good 80-90% dissatisfaction rate regarding the endings or lack thererof...

That's simply not relevant, sorry. Internet polls are in no way statistically accurate or relevant, since they only portray the very small minority that actually goes onto the internet to talk about a game, while the majority of players will more likely simply play the game and not care about what happens on the Bioware Social Networks and other forums.
But even then, this issue of the endings is rather polarizing, so that any survey will be biased and put off many people like me from even partaking in them. So these polls aren't even representative of the BSN. Bioware are more likely to listen to articulate reasoning on why something should be changed than to pay any heed to a random, and often biased, poll.

[Ahms]

We don't need another ending. What we need is an explanation of the epilogue.

Unsigned.

[Superninfreak]

LilyasAvalon wrote...

Superninfreak wrote...

I never played Legacy in DA2, what did it do to change things?

Nothing to be quite honest, least in the main plot. But it actually did have an interesting story, lots of new things with characters. It was definately an attempt of a 'we're sorry'.

...You know it's actually pretty sad when a DLC is better then the main game.

How was it a "we're sorry" if it didn't change anything?

Again, maybe it's because I haven't played it, but I don't see how releasing a good DLC is admitting that you're wrong about something.

[Ludica]

So far many concluded that the destruction of mass relays showed in the ending is contradictory. Arrival DLC(waddyaknow, DLC spam strategy finally backfired) showed destroying the mass relay results in a total wipeout of a system it was in. Which presents us beautiful three endings:

1)destroy the galaxy
2)destroy the galaxy
3)destroy the galaxy

Add high war assets and they turn into "destroy the galaxy except your crew and possibly yourself, with no chance to meet each other again anyway".

P.S. Point is, change or/and explanation is pretty much the only saving throw there is.
P.P.S. With a screwup such as this and near colossal fan backlash(i'm sorry, we're not in dark ages of gaming anymore, internet connection is not rare for gamers, so please stop with the "minority" excuce), i'd say victory is possible.

Modifié par Ludica, 10 mars 2012 - 12:36 .

[Craven1138]

askanec wrote...

The events that happened in ME3 pointed towards the ending we got.

Huh? Like Joker & EDI? Geth and Quarian? It totally pointed towards happy ending after darkest moment.

askanec wrote...

If
people wanted something simple like Anderson surviving, instead of
getting killed off, that could be do-able, but I'm guessing people want
much more than that.

People want exactly the same thing whole Mass Effect series was about - choices and consequences. Up till final moment of game your choices, had impact, loyalities, alliances, paths taken. And developers had to take them into consideration, build alternate paths it took lot effort. And then in last moment, exactly when they could do just everything, give players complete freedom as it was finale of trlilogy, the took everything. No matter what you did, you can pick your explosion color. Oh and if you play online you may get 3 second glimpse of N7 armor. Cool.

[Shinannigan]

Ludica wrote...

P.P.S. With a screwup such as this and near colossal fan backlash(i'm sorry, we're not in dark ages of gaming anymore, internet connection is not rare for gamers, so please stop with the "minority" excuce), i'd say victory is possible.

I never claimed that most gamers don't have access to the internet, but most gamers simply don't care enough about their games to talk about it online. ME3 has sold over three million copies. The numer of members on the BSN probably doesn't even reach 10% of that.

And as long as dozens of new threads about the ending keep popping up and all these are filles with at least 50% whining, threatening and insulting towards Bioware, rather than staying rational and explaining what exactly you would like changed about the ending ("everything" is not a basis for dicussion) in a single, combined thread, I wouldn't expect Bioware to actually read through the complaints - Heck, I sure hope they don't, because it certainly sucks to read that much hate against a project you've worked so hard on to finish.
If you want something changed, acknowledge that being the "loudest" doesn't make you the majority and try to vocalise your discontent civily and with suggestions on how to mitigate the apsects that annoy you in future DLC.

This isn't directed at you personally, just a general suggestion.

[Ludica]

Shinannigan wrote...

Ludica wrote...

P.P.S. With a screwup such as this and near colossal fan backlash(i'm sorry, we're not in dark ages of gaming anymore, internet connection is not rare for gamers, so please stop with the "minority" excuce), i'd say victory is possible.

I never claimed that most gamers don't have access to the internet, but most gamers simply don't care enough about their games to talk about it online. ME3 has sold over three million copies. The numer of members on the BSN probably doesn't even reach 10% of that.

And as long as dozens of new threads about the ending keep popping up and all these are filles with at least 50% whining, threatening and insulting towards Bioware, rather than staying rational and explaining what exactly you would like changed about the ending ("everything" is not a basis for dicussion) in a single, combined thread, I wouldn't expect Bioware to actually read through the complaints - Heck, I sure hope they don't, because it certainly sucks to read that much hate against a project you've worked so hard on to finish.
If you want something changed, acknowledge that being the "loudest" doesn't make you the majority and try to vocalise your discontent civily and with suggestions on how to mitigate the apsects that annoy you in future DLC.

This isn't directed at you personally, just a general suggestion.

That doesn't mean there aren't people outside of BSN hating these endings. It doesn't even mean those people are minority. 

Funny thing, i saw far more reasonable suggestions and points of contradictions than you give credit for. Maybe rather than call the fans "whiners" for daring to suggest Mass Effect can possibly has a flaw,  and filter all their posts, maybe read something? Not directed at you personally, of course. Just on those who go like "ending is fine, i say so, so i declare myself majority despite evidence on the contrary"

I myself, and so many other people point out the critical flaw in all endings: you destroy the galaxy. In all of them. This needs change. Serious change.

[Shinannigan]

Ludica wrote...

That doesn't mean there aren't people outside of BSN hating these endings. It doesn't even mean those people are minority. 

Funny thing, i saw far more reasonable suggestions and points of contradictions than you give credit for. Maybe rather than call the fans "whiners" for daring to suggest Mass Effect can possibly has a flaw,  and filter all their posts, maybe read something? Not directed at you personally, of course. Just on those who go like "ending is fine, i say so, so i declare myself majority despite evidence on the contrary"

I myself, and so many other people point out the critical flaw in all endings: you destroy the galaxy. In all of them. This needs change. Serious change.

I never said that I liked the endings. I liked that they were dark, but I do have issues with how exactly they were executed and turned out. I also never said that the majority of players like the endings. I just argued those who say that the majority of players hated the endings. We simply don't know. We can't judge from the vocal resonance here on the BSN - just like we can't judge from the overwhelmingly positive critical reception of the game. It's down to personal choice, and if someone personally wants something changed, they should consider what changes might be possible and then suggest realistic ways of accomplishing that.
I also know that there are several reasonable statements towards the endings, but in my eyes they are drowned under the flood of "never buying another Bioware game" and requests for a Happy ending with lots of little blue/purple/human/adopted children that is simply not in the book.
And the ending is far from as dark as you put it. Yes, the destruction of the Mass Effect relay in Arrival destroyed the entire system, but since Earth survives as long as you have enough EMS, that is obviously not the case in ME3. One may call that lore oversight or sloppy writing, but then again before Arrival it was always claimed that not even a supernova could destroy a Mass Relay. So now we have another lore rewrite which I am okay with, although not happy about.

[Wattoes]

In an ideal world they would, however it will never happen.

1) It admits they were wrong and it sucks. Noone likes to admit being retarded.
2) They would make it dlc probably and people would rage about paying for something they should have had in the first place
3) Negative press on the game and could hurt sales.

[askanec]

Craven1138 wrote...

askanec wrote...

The events that happened in ME3 pointed towards the ending we got.

Huh? Like Joker & EDI? Geth and Quarian? It totally pointed towards happy ending after darkest moment.

askanec wrote...

If
people wanted something simple like Anderson surviving, instead of
getting killed off, that could be do-able, but I'm guessing people want
much more than that.

People want exactly the same thing whole Mass Effect series was about - choices and consequences. Up till final moment of game your choices, had impact, loyalities, alliances, paths taken. And developers had to take them into consideration, build alternate paths it took lot effort. And then in last moment, exactly when they could do just everything, give players complete freedom as it was finale of trlilogy, the took everything. No matter what you did, you can pick your explosion color. Oh and if you play online you may get 3 second glimpse of N7 armor. Cool.

The theme running through the game, the message that kept drumming into the player, is that the Reapers cannot be defeated through military might. Shepard can play arm-chair general all you want and it'll be a pointless exercise, because the Reapers are simply too strong. The only strategy available was to make a mad dash to the Citadel to get the Crucible in position so it can do whatever it is supposed to do.

And I'm not clear what you mean by "Up till final moment of game your choices, had impact, loyalities, alliances, paths taken" or "give players complete freedom as it was finale of trlilogy, the took everything". Can you give examples what you want Bioware to do, because if I'm Bioware, I have no idea what you want.

Modifié par askanec, 10 mars 2012 - 01:21 .

[Ludica]

Shinannigan wrote...
I never said that I liked the endings. I liked that they were dark, but I do have issues with how exactly they were executed and turned out. I also never said that the majority of players like the endings. I just argued those who say that the majority of players hated the endings. We simply don't know. We can't judge from the vocal resonance here on the BSN - just like we can't judge from the overwhelmingly positive critical reception of the game. It's down to personal choice, and if someone personally wants something changed, they should consider what changes might be possible and then suggest realistic ways of accomplishing that.
I also know that there are several reasonable statements towards the endings, but in my eyes they are drowned under the flood of "never buying another Bioware game" and requests for a Happy ending with lots of little blue/purple/human/adopted children that is simply not in the book.
And the ending is far from as dark as you put it. Yes, the destruction of the Mass Effect relay in Arrival destroyed the entire system, but since Earth survives as long as you have enough EMS, that is obviously not the case in ME3. One may call that lore oversight or sloppy writing, but then again before Arrival it was always claimed that not even a supernova could destroy a Mass Relay. So now we have another lore rewrite which I am okay with, although not happy about.

We can judge from BSN. Internet communities are more vocal, i'll give you that, but they reflect the communities at large. A mini-society demonstrating what people at large think. Both them and us, have a variety of opinions. We're(internet community and non-internet community) not different races who are gene-coded to think differently. The most likely one to be major there is the one major here. That is a concept that applies too all communities. 
The happy ending has always been possible in ME games before 3, so please don't diss that. It should be possible, no matter hard it would be. Even if that requied me to go face a one-try extremely hard boss(come to think of it, another climax flaw - NO FINAL BOSS), it should be possible. Endings as they are betray the game's message of hope and the entire idea of space opera genre reconstruction.
Earth is shown surviving before the mass relay destruction. Your crew is shown surviving after, but we aren't really sure where they've ended up. Secondly, while a supernova wasn't shown destroying the mass relay(even if it is, it blows up everything else anyway, so little point in doing so), the meteor was clearly shown destroying the mass relay on Arrival and wiping out the system, causing you on trial(which, by the way, never happened... weird...)

[Shinannigan]

Ludica wrote...

We can judge from BSN. Internet communities are more vocal, i'll give you that, but they reflect the communities at large. A mini-society demonstrating what people at large think. Both them and us, have a variety of opinions. We're(internet community and non-internet community) not different races who are gene-coded to think differently. The most likely one to be major there is the one major here. That is a concept that applies too all communities. 
The happy ending has always been possible in ME games before 3, so please don't diss that. It should be possible, no matter hard it would be. Even if that requied me to go face a one-try extremely hard boss(come to think of it, another climax flaw - NO FINAL BOSS), it should be possible. Endings as they are betray the game's message of hope and the entire idea of space opera genre reconstruction.
Earth is shown surviving before the mass relay destruction. Your crew is shown surviving after, but we aren't really sure where they've ended up. Secondly, while a supernova wasn't shown destroying the mass relay(even if it is, it blows up everything else anyway, so little point in doing so), the meteor was clearly shown destroying the mass relay on Arrival and wiping out the system, causing you on trial(which, by the way, never happened... weird...)

Granted, if you want to see the ending as the destruction of all systems that have a Mass Relay, you an do so on the basis of data provided and without headcanon.

The absence of a final boss is hardly a flaw in itself. In fact, the standard boss-fights at the end of Shadow Broker and in the Suicide Mission certainly weren't needed for those excellent missions and hurt more than they helped in my eyes. The concept of an "intellectual" boss fight in a Conversation was much mroe interesting to me, although I did miss Harbinger speaking at that (or any) point in the game.

I appreciate that some or even many people would have liked a happy ending, but again, this is such a major disagreement with the conscious decision of the writing team not to provide one, that this criticism goes contrary against their creative vision. Which is okay, mind you, but I doubt that the request for a happy ending with Shepard, crew and LI reunited will get answered, since that would be a "betrayal" of the creative vision of the writers. I think requests for minor changes, that affect the endings execution rather than its overall set-up, have much more hope of succeeding.

[Ludica]

Shinannigan wrote...

Granted, if you want to see the ending as the destruction of all systems that have a Mass Relay, you an do so on the basis of data provided and without headcanon.

The absence of a final boss is hardly a flaw in itself. In fact, the standard boss-fights at the end of Shadow Broker and in the Suicide Mission certainly weren't needed for those excellent missions and hurt more than they helped in my eyes. The concept of an "intellectual" boss fight in a Conversation was much mroe interesting to me, although I did miss Harbinger speaking at that (or any) point in the game.

I appreciate that some or even many people would have liked a happy ending, but again, this is such a major disagreement with the conscious decision of the writing team not to provide one, that this criticism goes contrary against their creative vision. Which is okay, mind you, but I doubt that the request for a happy ending with Shepard, crew and LI reunited will get answered, since that would be a "betrayal" of the creative vision of the writers. I think requests for minor changes, that affect the endings execution rather than its overall set-up, have much more hope of succeeding.

The thing that the most logical conclusion leads to that(the second most is "it was a hallucination", which i'd love to be true) is the glaring problem with the ending my itself. It could have cut 1.5 seconds of showing the mass relay destroying and it would have been already a 100 times better ending.

I'm talking about Saren-like. It was a conversation boss and a normal boss, close to the perfect ME final boss. Besides, in my opinion, ME3 failed the "conversation" boss(TIM), by showing him get the exact same reaction from your words until the last moments. He doesn't slowly get outlectured by your high persuasion points, or bombard you with vocal superiority because of their lack, he does the exact same thing every time. Except the final, which is just as easily accesable by a quick time event, as opposed to a relatively challenging boss fight. 

No, this ending is exactly what goes against the creative vision of the original writers. As you may have known, the original ending involved Dark Energy threat, and a choice that fit within the original underlying dilemma of Mass Effect series: is submission preferable to extinction? Or are slim chances of winning worth trying? ME3 ending betrays both of these underlying themes from the past 2 games and even itself. Granted, Dark Energy thing is pretty stupid and implies Reapers were right, but it's better to actually make this choice, then just take from that kid that they were. The ending we have outright states they were right.

[Aspex]

I'm going to say that an alternative/extended ending DLC is quite possible, actually, at the risk of being disappointed in the future. Whether or not it is because of the polls/threads is another matter which I cannot say, since Bioware might very well have planned for such an eventuality for a DLC anyway.

Before the game, I would've said otherwise. I was discussing the issue of DLCs with a friend before ME3's release, and I had claimed that story-based DLCs (along the lines of LotSB and Arrival in ME2, because they drive the plot forward) were not possible for ME3, because it was supposed to be the definitive ending to Commander Shepard's story.

Clearly, with the ending(s) we have, that is not true. At least, the 'definitive' part is cast into massive doubt anyway.

Creating DLCs will cost them money, yes, and it might be a huge embarrassment for Bioware to admit they screwed up. But the volume of people who would actually buy an alternative/extended ending DLC is...fairly large, though admittedly only going by forum posts. The endings themselves seem set up to allow for DLCs to begin with: this is evidenced in the number of theories that are flying around, from it all being a hallucination (the best 'proof' of this I've seen is Shepard breathing in wreckage at the 'destroy' ending, given the chances of surviving a crash from the exploding Citadel to Earth) to the various other expanded ones that fill in plot gaps in the story.

These alternatives do not explicitly reject the current endings - DLCs which replace the entire last 5 minutes or so of the story are probably unlikely. However, what we definitely know from the 'destroy' ending with 5k+ EMS is that Commander Shepard's not quite finished yet, and they might choose to return to it in the future. As painful as it is to write, I'd buy such a DLC.

[LilyasAvalon]

Superninfreak wrote...

LilyasAvalon wrote...

Superninfreak wrote...

I never played Legacy in DA2, what did it do to change things?

Nothing to be quite honest, least in the main plot. But it actually did have an interesting story, lots of new things with characters. It was definately an attempt of a 'we're sorry'.

...You know it's actually pretty sad when a DLC is better then the main game.

How was it a "we're sorry" if it didn't change anything?

Again, maybe it's because I haven't played it, but I don't see how releasing a good DLC is admitting that you're wrong about something.

Because they actually put effort and time into Legacy with a clinging story, nothing that DA2 did. I see it as a 'we're sorry', but it certainly doesn't change the factor that I liken DA2 to varren ****.

Again, it doesn't change what DA2 is, which was just plain awful, but it was certainly a step up.

[Storenumber9]

Even by going only on BSN users, Bioware would probably make a good profit selling Alternate ending DLCs. I know for sure that many other people (including some of the people at other game forums, like Rooster Teeth) are having a similar reaction, so count them in with the vast amount of people to buy it.

Even if it hurts them to say "hey, we messed up here," that isn't at all bad for them. It could actually been seen as a good PR move, as it shows that they (As a company) are willing to identify problems with their own games and rectify them. In all likelihood, they would get points for having the balls to admit mistakes (in a industry that never does) rather than lose points for screwing up.

[Thormgrim]

Posted this in other threads aswell, take a look at this thread social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/9727423
And think a few minutes about it. It would explain alot. And if you consider Shephard surviving / waking up in the "Destroy the Reapers" end ( which would normally be the only consequential end ). It makes much more sense, come on how could shephard survive being on the citadel when it went boom. It looks a lot like he dreamt this all up after being shot by Harbinger.
Only sad thing is this points to ( propably not free ) DLC

Modifié par Thormgrim, 10 mars 2012 - 02:46 .

[ApophisGoauld]

Chance, that they would listen is very, very low... But WE MUST DO SOMETHING!! Shepard and Liara/Ashley/Tali/Miranda/Jack/Garrus/Kaydan/Thane etc NEED US!!