126 réponses à ce sujet

[forgottenlord]

Zhuinden wrote...

I have received this PM from a guy who cannot post in the Spoilers
forums, but still did his best to inform me. Thanks to him for that.

Sence900p wrote...

Hello, as I can't post in the thread I am sending you this PM. You are absolutely correct, the rest of the people in the thread must not have been paying attention.

Quoting Samara, during the conversation which leads to her loyalty mission: "I have three daughters. There are three Ardat-Yakshi in existence today. It is as it sounds."

Here is a link to a video of the scene as proof.

http://youtu.be/DYPbnY1s-Po?t=3m40s

Or at 3:40 in this video

So apparently, I was not as wrong as it would have seemed.

I'm not in disagreement with you, but I thought that it didn't make sense in the first place.  They're notorious amongst Asari to the point that Aria suspects there is one on her station immediately after seeing the body - but only 3 exist?  Samara may have been lying or lacked information, but the logic didn't add up in the first place.

Modifié par forgottenlord, 15 mars 2012 - 05:52 .

[Warhawk7137]

Eh.... I'm OK with this retcon. I think it improved things.

[Locutus_of_BORG]

Zhuinden wrote...

I'm so confused with the Ardat-Yakshi Monastery. I thought that according to Samara, there were only 3 Ardat-Yakshi in existence, and all 3 of them were her daughters.

Now we have a monastery full of them, and the codex entry makes even less sense?


I figured that a rare genetic disease was more of a yes/no question (whether you kill your partner by mating them or not), instead of being on a 'spectrum' like autism or something.


Does anyone understand what's going on here?

The monastary is actually mentioned in ME2 somewhere, iirc. They make a certain kind of wine or something that you can buy.

Mr. Big Pimpin wrote...

Apparently Samara had no clue what she was talking about in ME2.

It sounds like this at first, but I think she's just trying to keep things as down-low as possible. She never explicitly says that there are *only* 3 ardat-yakshi, just that "there are three (in existence)" that happen to be her daughters.

[The Final Warrior]

Samara probably meant that there are three full Ardat-Yakshi (i.e., the full-on psychic vampire types like Morinth) in existence, and all the others at the monastery carry the genetic markers for AYism.

-- Griffinhart

[Eudaemonium]

Lucy_Glitter wrote...

movieguyabw wrote...

They needed Banshees... but for some reason didn't want to make the actual Asari into them.

^

The original leaks seem to imply that the original plan was to have Falere and Rila hooked up to a Reaper machine where they were forced to transform normal asari into banshees via some twisted AY-Reaper technique. Presumably this was considered a bit too grotesque, or something, so it was changed so that Banshees were just Ardat-Yakshi.

There is a bit of an inconsistency though, even in ME2, between Samara's lines and the mention of 'AY Monasteries' and it being a spectrum. It's probably a plot hole, but was even before ME3.

[Sheyin]

I think it's a retcon just so they could explain Samara's presence... the artbook says the banshees were actually made from transformed matriarchs (isn't that just the older asari?). If that were the case, there'd probably be a whole lot more banshees, and the reapers would probably just win lol...

[Thumb Fu]

The banshees are made from Asari with active or latent, pre-dispositions to the ardat-yakshi gene, many asari may carry the gene, but it would be latent, in the case of Samara's doughters, the gene is active.

Explained

Modifié par Thumb Fu, 15 mars 2012 - 06:05 .

[legion999]

She didn't say there are only three Ardat Yakshi. She just said there are at least three.

[juliannacorn]

Yeah, what everyone else said about Samara particularly mentioning that her three daughters were the only ones in existence.

But, there are a bunch of small discrepancies. In the Shadow Broker you can read a transmission that says Felare is 49, but in Mass Effect 3 Samara hasn't seen her in centuries for instance.

I just assumed it was Justicar oath impeding her honesty.

[Harbinger of Hope]

BlackDragonBane wrote...

I don't believe Samara ever said that her daughters were the only 3 Ardant-Yakshi in existence. It's a genetic disease that affects only pure-bloods and given that an Asari lives for 1000 years, why wouldn't there be a full monestary for them. The codex seems to make sense.

Would you want the rest of the galaxy to know that there is a very common genetic disorder that makes Asari melding lethal and could potentially turn a powerful biotic blood-thirsty? I smell cover up from the Asari government.

And as we have learned from Thessia, that is very in character for them.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Let's put rare in perspective..... Rare can mean 1:200. So it can mean 1:200 pureblood births result in an Ardat-Yakshi, which is why pure blood relationships are so frowned on, and probably a result of too close breeding during a particular period of their history.

[TheCreeper]

Probably meant that her daughters had the worst version of it and they were the only known cases of that version. Of course that might mean that a lot of people in that that place had a lesser verison that only gave their partners really bad headaches or something, and let me tell you I would not be happy about having to go to a temple because me having sex gave other people a migraine.

[Adventuress]

Banshee Discussion:

Hopefully I can help out a little bit by doing some research. I don’t necessarily think the writers did a ret-con of the situation. However, I do think they had to find a quick alternative to what they originally wanted to do. We got what we got.

In the Codex we can see subtle hints that can be formed together to (slightly) explain about Ardat-Yakshi and how there can possibly be more than a few of them.

Main Codex & Secondary Codex combined from ME2:

Asari have three stages of life. “Asari can live for over 1000 years, passing through three stages of life.”

Maidan: “In the maidan stage, they wander relentlessly seeking new knowledge and experience. The Maidan stage begins at birth.”
Matron: “The Matron stage of life begins around the age of 350, though it can be triggered earlier if the individual melds frequently. When the Matron stage begins, they ‘meld’ with interesting partners to produce their offspring.”
Matriarch: “The Matriarch stage begins around 700. This ends when they reach the Matriarch stage, where they assume the roles of leaders and councilors.”

Main Codex & Secondary Codex combined from ME3:

Banshee: “The Reapers create them specifically from Asari with active or latent predispositions to becoming Ardat-Yakshi. This disorder generally begins in infancy, reaching full pathology during Maidan adolescent sexual development. Contrary to popular belief, Ardat-Yakshi are neither extremely rare (around one per cent of asari dwell on the AY spectrum)…As a disproportionally wealthy species, Asari employ their economic reach and media ownership to hide the AY pathology from the galactic community, placing most Ardat-Yakshi in monitored work programs or seclusion. Only the most aggressive cases are sentenced to sanitaria and prisons or to the execution lists of justicars.”

ME 3 Planet Observation:

Thessia: Population 5.5 billion; Population (Orbital Stations) 33,000

Now let’s put all this information together; given the population only from Thessia if you take one per cent from 5.5 billion that equals to be 55,000,000 (right…?).

Then there is the fact that not every Asari could be in the Matron stage of life (where ME3 codex and Samara explains it is “triggered” and active). If it is not “active” then it is “latent” or dormant because the disorder “generally begins in infancy”. So 55,000,000 Asari could have it, active (Matron stage where it begins) or latent (Maidan stage or perhaps a recessive gene) at that point in time before the Reaper invasion.

It is also stated in the codex that the Asari hide the disorder from the rest of the galactic community. This could explain why it is seen as “very rare” instead of what it actually is: not as rare as what we think.

When Samara explains Ardat-Yakshi she specifically says: “Now the asari have a place in the galaxy, and they don’t wish this defect to be widely known. As far as I know only three exist today….it manifests with maturity. When one is diagnosed, she is offered the chance to live in seclusion and comfort.”

“As far as I know,” could be interpreted as “My Justicar code will only let me state…” because we find in the wiki: “Justicars swear oaths called the Oaths of Subsumation. This pledges protection of the … the norms of asari society. This means justicars will never overthrow an existing government, and will instead preserve the existing laws of the asari…” If the Asari government tries to hide AY disorder, why would Samara go against her code and tell Shepard how many Ardat there actually are? But this is a little hazy and open to interpretation.

From here we see Samara switches the narrative to the subject of herself and her daughters. Here she says: “There is one thing more: this creature, this. . .monster. She is my daughter.” Then Shepard asks Samara how many other children she has. Samara answers: “Three. And three Ardat-Yakshi are in existence today. It is as it sounds.” This is my own interpretation, but I feel Samara is only talking of herself and her daughters here. She is basically saying “Yes, I have three children. Yes, there are three Ardat-Yakshi in existence today because of me.”

Hope that cleared some things up at least.

Modifié par Adventuress, 15 mars 2012 - 08:06 .

[Xion66]

They had this cool ass design for the banshees so they just twisted around the lore, same thing goes for the Rachni.

Honestly it makes me sick.

[coldlogic82]

I'm pretty sure that codex matches the one from ME 2. I knew before coming into ME 3 that they weren't rare, and that not all of them were violent killers. There's mention of places they stay in order to avoid hurting others. I think you have to go deep in the conversations with Samara to get that codex, and I think getting it depends on what options you choose. If I can bring myself to open ME 2 later today, I'll screenshot my codex entry.

[Adventuress]

coldlogic82 wrote...
I'm pretty sure that codex matches the one from ME 2.

Yeah, everything I quoted I took exactly from the Codex in both ME2 and ME3. Just added the Codex quotes together for the stages.

[Lambchopz]

My understanding was that Samara had 3 Ardat-Yakshi daughters, but Morinth was the only dangerous one.

Other then that, it was implied they were fairly numerous, but just secluded. I'm pretty sure the idea of a monastery for them to live in seclusion was even brought up as far back as ME2 in one of the more obscure lore pieces.

The reason the Reapers chose them probably has to do with their strange biotic abilities. Ardat-Yakshi have both very powerful biotics and very volatile biotics.

Good for the Reapers purpose.

[Verethele]

I was under that impression as well--that there were only three. I guess you could interpret "...and there are three AY in existence today" as a way of stating that her three daughters having become AY without it actually referring to the number of AY in total. However, that's a really strange way to word it if so.

As previously stated, the leaked script had a more coherent version--Samara's daughters were in some way being used to turn other regular asari into the banshees. I wish they would have stuck with this version.

[IrishRents]

I also remember Samara mentioning there was no way to tell if an Asari was to become an Ardat-Yakshi; until she was one. So there would be no latent Ardat-Yakshi. It was a retcon, it's not the only one.

[sunderlance]

I just wanted to add something informative to this thread as an end, since it seems to have ceased activity. Having read through it though, I had to go to more than a few different places to be able to piece the details together satisfactorily.

 

As stated earlier, Samara did state that there were 3 Ardat-Yakshi in existence in ME2 and in ME3 there were supposed to be multiple Asari cloistered in an Ardat-Yakshi monastery. In truth though, we never see any beyond Samara's remaining daughters and it seems what Bioware did was to expand the possibility of AY in Asari culture. Nothing needed to be retconned in the end which was quite clever (I was also screaming retcon, at first) since we were never told a great deal about Ardat-Yakshi to begin with.

 

From the info Samara gives us (in ME2) and that found in the monastery and codex entries, about 1% of Asari civilization hold the gene/gene defect for AY and a number can suffer from the gene in any given generation but few truly become the "Demon of the Night Winds". Messages found in the monastery also show a Matriarch looking into a particular Justicar who would bring Asari to the monastery frightened and confused and 'unaware of how necessary it was for them to be there' - suggesting that these Asari have the AY gene but are not aware of it, which also suggests that they are not yet full "Demons" as something like that would be impossible to keep hidden amongst other Asari for long -- we can conjecture that she was finding them by tracing medical records or something like that since they would have to be in a earlier AY state or have a lesser form of the condition. There are also messages showing the Matriarch arranging day trips back on Thessia for the cloistered Asari - something you certainly would not do with someone like Morinth!

 

So, from the data we are given it all makes sense without a retcon, though it is admittedly a little jarring at first. I hope this helps anyone else who was as confused as I was at first.

[Han Shot First]

Samara's dialogue also technically wasn't retconned, as Mass Effect 2 presents contradictory information on the Ardat Yakshi. While Samara's dialogue seems to indicate that they are not only exceedingly rare but also currently limited to her family, the codex entry in Mass Effect 2 states that, "contrary to popular belief, Ardat-Yakshi are neither extremely rare (around one percent of asari dwell on the AY spectrum), nor are they all murderers." Additionally if you have Shepard purchase the Asari honey wine from the Eternity lounge on Illium, the short description says it is brewed at an Ardat-Yakshi monastery. 

[SwobyJ]

It all fits, even if the writers clearly adjusted details over time.

 

-Having AY genes does not mean you are a full AY

-Rila, Falere, and Morinth are the only full AYs that Samara knows exists

-The others at the Monastery have AY genes

-The Asari are crazy about controlling this risk (culturally, politically, strategically), so they take measures to keep AY-potentials secret

-Sure, there may be full AYs out there, but part of the whole role of the Justicars may at least in part be to track down any AY threats and eliminate them before anyone knew it happened

-But only as a last resort. Instead, it seems that the normal routine is to detect potential AYs and bring them to the Monastery just in case

 

Those with AY genes have the stuff for Reapers to use as powerful Banshees.

Those full AYs have such innately powerful biotics that they would hypothetically make up the strongest Banshees.

A regular asari non-AY civilian may or may not make up a strong Banshee, but it is unknown whether the Reapers would still do it or not.

 

In the end, the AY story has to do with the theme of chaos vs. order.

 

In a chaotic culture, we'd see AY and non-AY in more open conflict with each other (boo!), winner take all (yay?). As AY have 'natural' advantage and lived in a time where asari commonly mated with each other, they probably ruled things more than the asari would let on... until the Prothians likely intervened, and ascended the asari into galactic society.

 

In this current ordered culture, we see AY locked away in secret (yay!), with the downside being that asari also feel it is necessary to even lock away the *potentials* to be AY, lest it harm their reputation and structure (boo?). Overall, most would agree that it is an improvement, designed to give asari a shot instead of being dominated by AY and their murder.

 

Needs of many over freedoms of the few.

[Farangbaa]

I also remember Samara mentioning there was no way to tell if an Asari was to become an Ardat-Yakshi; until she was one. So there would be no latent Ardat-Yakshi. It was a retcon, it's not the only one.

 

Do you know what latent means?

[Perpetual Nirvana]

Okay, let's get this straight, the monastery's existence IS NOT a retcon. Yes, Samara says there are only three A-Y but there are several references in ME2 to there being more including the codex itself.

 

Now exactly why Samara would be under the impression there are only three A-Y when as a Justicar she should know that isn't true is the question here.

[CronoDragoon]

Do you know what latent means?

 

Attack of the necro thread!