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Mass Effect Three- A Study of Shell Games (Warning: Long. And Wordy.)


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#101
FunstuffofDoom

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Earlier you said the the world is a romanticised sci fi universe because people left alone would be good, I then pointed out that even prior to the reapers it was hardly a place were everyone was committed to being excellent to one another...the later you backtracked to say they needed shepard's guidance to be good or something like that, to be honest you really lost me with your argument on how its a romantic or idealized universe simply because Shepard wants or makes people work together.

My argument is, the universe is a romantic one because it's a fundamentally good one. The player sees this through Shepard's interactions with the galaxy, but only because Shepard is the only viewpoint they have, I think. Now, as you've pointed out, it's not a perfectly good universe, and it couldn't be. There's no way that you could tell a story with any sense of drama if nobody was bad.

The original reason we began debating Space Opera versus anything else is the nature of whether or not we were right to be surprised by the ending, and whether or not it could be considered a tone shift.

I find you mentioning the PA article pretty funny, because his strip is pretty much (in PA's eyes anyway) what the hold the liner's are demanding. The icecream because it is sweet and happy and few people would complain about getting ice cream. The segway because its for lazy people that can't even bother to walk between two points. And the cake for well...obvious reasons. It is definatly insulting, but you thinking that the strip's is nothing but a fantasticly ridiculous ending they dreamed up to be funny underlines the issue that the ones who dislike the ending have difficulty interpreting fiction at anything other than face value.


I didn't put nearly as much thought into the PA strip as you did. To me, it was simply a series of ridiculous surrealisms, which is what I associate with PA. I didn't take it to be insulting, so much as a knwoing elbow to the ribs of the opposition, because I believe that's the stance that Gabe and Tycho have taken- they liked the ending, but they understood why other people didn't, and they were okay with people asking for a new one.

Let's finish up the the reliability of the Star Child. Yeah, it's perfectly acceptable to assume the villain's lying. But, on the other hand, most villains rarely capitalize on this. The fact that, basically most of the time in fiction you can depend on the information you get from a villain to be accurate only serves to underscore the times where they don't. I'm thinking that scene from Dark Knight, where Joker deliberately swaps the addresses he gives Batman. The audience assumes what they're being told is, to some degree, the truth, and this extends to villains, and it's why we can have things like twist endings.

That being said, for all that there's a bunch of literature, now, on why someone's pulling a fast one on Shepard, none of it involves the Reapers actually lying to her. It's her own perceptions that's she getting screwed over by. The Reapers will mislead you, and they'll neglect to mention things you might've wanted to know, but when they're under the gun, they're pretty straightforward about what they're doing, and how they plan on doing it.

The lack of an epilogue really comes into play here, to. Star Child could be lying. Star Child could be a manipulative little ****. We don't know, because we don't really know what happens next. But beyond Shepard perceiving things incorrectly, there isn't anything to suggest Star Child is doing anything other than tell the truth as it knows it, just like all the Reapers do.

So, here's the final thing. An unreliable narrator, as I've said, is a great convention. When it's established ahead of time. A villain who has no reason to lie, no real foreshadowed intention of lying, and no foreshadowed evidence of existence before the final moments, who turns out to be lying, isn't an unreliable narrator, or even a villain acting like a villain ought. It's a twist Vince Russo writes.

#102
Yttrian

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I support this idea/opinion.

#103
Shaigunjoe

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When I think of a romanticised universe, I think of star wars, or treasure island.  When you watch it you think, man being a pirate is fun, or being a xwing pilot is fun! The film does a poor job of portraying the weight of said occupation.  Being Shepard?  If I was faced with those kinds of responsiblities IRL....shiver.   Which is why I don't really equate the ME universe to a romantic one.

The original reason we began debating Space Opera versus anything else is the nature of whether or not we were right to be surprised by the ending, and whether or not it could be considered a tone shift.


Is that it?  I thought it was bioware said Mass Effect was not a space opera when ME 1 launched, and that meant they somehow failed artistically.  I don't even remember anymore.

I guess complaing about a tone shift would imply a constant tone throughout the series, but it was clear that between ME 1 and ME 2 the tone would be darker.  I guess as the reapers attack it would be darker still.  And they drop all sorts of hints at the beginning of ME 3 that sheppard is getting indoctrinated, and that can only end with some misconception of reality.  Just the inclusion of a dream sequence should be a cause for alarm that something is different is going down.

There is nothing wrong at all with introducing an unreliable narrator at the 11th hour.  Gene Wolfe did it and he is in the sci fi writer's hall of fame.  In that book series, it reads like a pretty standard 3rd person story until you find out its being narrated by someone else in the universe.  Even then, you have no reason to expect, ever, that the narrator is lying to you.  I feel that BW goes to great lengths to ensure that you know he/she is.

I didn't put nearly as much thought into the PA strip as you did.

Not much thought required for that one.

To me, it was simply a series of ridiculous surrealisms, which is what I associate with PA.

And what a large number of people associate with the ending of ME3.


I didn't take it to be insulting, so much as a knwoing elbow to the ribs of the opposition, because I believe that's the stance that Gabe and Tycho have taken- they liked the ending, but they understood why other people didn't, and they were okay with people asking for a new one.

Thats good, no harm no foul then.

Modifié par Shaigunjoe, 23 mars 2012 - 03:55 .


#104
Bufardo74

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To the OP, FunstuffofDoom,

I have to say, I tip my hat to you.

I found your post to be quite engaging and well-thought.

While I am a pretty firm supporter of the "Indoctrination Theory" (as my sig states) and I don't necessarily agree with all of your points, I sure do respect them.
Hell, after reading your post, I wouldn't mind too terribly if BioWare took into account & implemented your suggestions on revision/resolution.

Kudos!

#105
FunstuffofDoom

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There is nothing wrong at all with introducing an unreliable narrator at the 11th hour. Gene Wolfe did it and he is in the sci fi writer's hall of fame. In that book series, it reads like a pretty standard 3rd person story until you find out its being narrated by someone else in the universe. Even then, you have no reason to expect, ever, that the narrator is lying to you. I feel that BW goes to great lengths to ensure that you know he/she is.

I don't recognize that name. Er, I do, but only in the vaguest, "I should know more about that than I do" sense.

I'll concede that, yes, it can be done. I think with enough talent, most things could be pulled off well. Jim Butcher's Codex Alera proved that quite nicely, for me.

I'm entirely unconvinced it happened well, here, though. But you're already aware of that, aren't you?

To the OP, FunstuffofDoom,

I have to say, I tip my hat to you.

I found your post to be quite engaging and well-thought.

While I am a pretty firm supporter of the "Indoctrination Theory" (as my sig states) and I don't necessarily agree with all of your points, I sure do respect them.
Hell, after reading your post, I wouldn't mind too terribly if BioWare took into account & implemented your suggestions on revision/resolution.

Kudos!


I'm glad you enjoyed it. May I suggest some additional reading materials? Them's that're linked in my signature are also rather eloquent.

#106
VigilancePress

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FunstuffofDoom wrote...

3. Protagonist's death is acceptable, sometimes even necessary to create an enduring story and everlasting character. The ending we get, however, feels forced and not cohesive.


It's not what I consider a strong reason, because it's very personal in nature. But the inevitability of Shepard's death in the endings is the worst thing that happened, for me. It's the one that hurts the most. It's the one that's got me coming back to these forums and scanning sites for news and stalking BioWare execs on twitter. I can make lip service to Shepard as an individual all I want, but check my writing, again. There are plenty of times where I slip into first person when talking about game events, which only says to me that Shepard and I are, on some level, interchangeable. And I wanted a happy ending. I wanted to walk into the sunset and say, it's over, now let's start rebuilding. I could have lived with everything else happening, but I wanted to be there when it did.

Bowing to necessity, to the way things are, is a compromise. But giving your life, to do it? That's robbery. And, suffice it to say, some things you just shouldn't do to the hero.


Agreed.

I had *no* interest in a story where sacrificing my life is the only good answer. It's inconsistent with the other games and doesn't offer any reward to me for my time as Commander Shepard.

The number of endings promised should have offered enough variety that a 'happy' ending could fit in there somewhere...

#107
Mighty_BOB_cnc

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FunstuffofDoom wrote...

C Trayne wrote...

I admit that comment may have been a bit over the top i was just frustrated that bioware could have done so many amazing things with the final battle and cutscene and then this is what we get stuck with.  No choices matter, your morality doesn't mean anything, and you have 3 finite endings that basically all end with the galaxy getting boned.  I would prefer your ending over any of the others we see in the game. 


I agree, As it happens, I'd like my ending, too. But, reading around, there was an originally planned ending where Shepard could go through Synthesis and live, or something. And then, they'd show up at a ruin and get debriefed by Anderson/Hackett while Liara was present. And that, that'd work for me, too.


That's one I haven't heard about yet.  I've only heard the Dark Energy one and a few others.


Also bumping this for great justice.  We as a community now have well over 1-3 dozen exemplary examples of extremely excellent articles laying bare our logical arguments in a reasoned and coherent manner as to why the ending fails to deliver on almost every single core pillar of literary storytelling.  And yet the only answer BioWare can come up with in response to these logical presentations is noncomittal vagaries, deflection, and denial

Quite frankly I am insulted but I am still holding out a little hope that they'll level with us at PAX.

Added to my list of must-reads.  Also I may have gotten a little carried away with my alliteration. =]

#108
FunstuffofDoom

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Added to my list of must-reads. Also I may have gotten a little carried away with my alliteration.

It is a well-know, and, in fact, scientifically-proven fact that there is no such thing as too much alliteration.

EDIT:

Quite frankly I am insulted but I am still holding out a little hope that they'll level with us at PAX. 

Don't hope too hard, friend. Best case scenario I can possibly see is, they acknowledge Retake ME at the beginning, and then ask that people let the issue lie, because they'll be dealing with it in the future. It's simply too potentially hot an issue to handle, I think.

Modifié par FunstuffofDoom, 26 mars 2012 - 06:51 .


#109
Raynulf

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(I must admit to not having read too far past the OP)

Nicely put.

While I suspect Bioware aren't going to do much (except get less preorders in the future), it is nice to dream that they will listen to their customers and produce a DLC to supply the product they advertised.

That said: I am not altogether sure why anyone is objecting to the request for a DLC ending in-keeping with the preceeding 60-600 hours of gameplay. If produced as DLC, anyone who wants to keep the original ending (and people are permitted their own opinion, even it's incomprehensible to me) can simply... not buy it. At a total cost of $0.

#110
FunstuffofDoom

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That said: I am not altogether sure why anyone is objecting to the request for a DLC ending in-keeping with the preceeding 60-600 hours of gameplay. If produced as DLC, anyone who wants to keep the original ending (and people are permitted their own opinion, even it's incomprehensible to me) can simply... not buy it. At a total cost of $0

My perception, and the various threads I've seen support this, is that people who liked the ending, but are willing to put a little bit of effort into understanding why others didn't, aren't the ones you're describing. They tend to understand our points, even if they disagree with them.

No, the people who are raising hubbub and commotion are the people who want to be right, and who want the other side to be wrong. Enough so that they aren't willing to look past their strawmen, except insofar as to loudly trumpet their victories over them.

#111
Mighty_BOB_cnc

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FunstuffofDoom wrote...

Don't hope too hard, friend. Best case scenario I can possibly see is, they acknowledge Retake ME at the beginning, and then ask that people let the issue lie, because they'll be dealing with it in the future. It's simply too potentially hot an issue to handle, I think.

Yeah it's not very much hope. They said they'll let us know more in April though, and since PAX is the 6th-8th I'm hoping they'll at least reveal some more about what their plans are.

Of course if their plans are "Keep the endings the same but add some more exposition" they'll probably be very vague about it because if they outright say that is their plan then the forums will explode again.. Of course if that is their plan then they could only delay the inevitable because the forums will either explode when they spill the beans or they will explode after it's released and people play it and find out for themselves.

FunstuffofDoom wrote...

That said: I am not altogether sure why anyone is objecting to the request for a DLC ending in-keeping with the preceeding 60-600 hours of gameplay. If produced as DLC, anyone who wants to keep the original ending (and people are permitted their own opinion, even it's incomprehensible to me) can simply... not buy it. At a total cost of $0

My perception, and the various threads I've seen support this, is that people who liked the ending, but are willing to put a little bit of effort into understanding why others didn't, aren't the ones you're describing. They tend to understand our points, even if they disagree with them.

No, the people who are raising hubbub and commotion are the people who want to be right, and who want the other side to be wrong. Enough so that they aren't willing to look past their strawmen, except insofar as to loudly trumpet their victories over them.

Ah yes, "those" people. 'If it doesn't match my confirmation bias that it is awesome, or if BioWare admits that they goofed, then that means I am flawed for liking a thing that has a flaw and I can't be flawed therefore the thing is good because I am scared of being flawed.'

I don't understand how someone could actually like the ending but some people do and I can accept that. But the specific subset that refuse to even acknowledge that other people have opinions, or ridicule them for having opinions, should take a lesson from Kuato and open their minds.

#112
ahandsomeshark

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I'd like to give you a standing ovation sir/madam.

#113
ahandsomeshark

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also do you mind if I use this in my signature

"That is petty. And that is why I'm bitter. Because you told me I could win, BioWare. And I couldn't. No matter how hard I try, no matter how much effort I put into your game, you cajoled me along, and then permitted me choose the degree to which I lost. Is that, perhaps, an unfair accusation? Is it maybe petulant, and childish? Is this a biased essay, through which I'm giving voice to my grief as a coping mechanism. Well, yes. But you lied to me, so duck a sick, huh?"

#114
FunstuffofDoom

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Ah yes, "those" people.

We have dismissed this claim.

I'd like to give you a standing ovation sir/madam.

It's 'sir'. Unless you want to be gender-progressive, or something. I also respond to 'cuddly jellyfish'.

also do you mind if I use this in my signature

[line]

Go for it. It'd be really, really nice if you linked to this thread, but that's vanity talking.

#115
sammysoso

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Amazing write OP, hope BioWare sees this

#116
Rafe34

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This is awesome. I completely agree with your reasoning about the ending. I would still be majorly sad if they killed off Joker, though. :(

#117
Giga Drill BREAKER

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While I don't agree with everything you said, I agree with most, that was well written

#118
Peete

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WheelsWithinWheels wrote...

Bioware: Hire this man.



Great points! I agree with the vast majority of them. OP's alt. ending is especially good.

#119
FunstuffofDoom

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DinoSteve wrote...

While I don't agree with everything you said, I agree with most, that was well written


What didn't you agree with?

#120
a.m.p

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OP, before you stab me for disagreeing about Femshep/Liara, allow me to tell you that this was beautiful. In fact this text itself evokes more of (and the right kind of) an emotional response than the actual ending.

A note on the epilogue. The problem with giving a satisfying epilogue to every Shepard out there is that everyone has their own ideas of what their character would do in any given post-reaper situation, and I don't think these individual stories can be defined by any amount of in-game variables. I know mine can't. So making a defined 'n month/years' later epilogue could create annoyance (of the 'what? my Shepard wouldn't do that!' type) for some people.

So for the characters I'd keep it simple. Show the immediate aftermath of the battle.State who is alive, who is dead, where they are. Then let them go, they have sure earned it.

Then cut to an epilogue for the various races and galaxy itself. Tell how in general Shepard's actions affected it. For me that would be more than enough.

Also, a special thank you for doing away with synthesis. Seriously.

Now you can stab me.

#121
Foxcat

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 Long but good.

#122
ericjdev

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I disagree that synthesis is the most paragon option, I think it's far and away the most evil. Altering the structure/culture/essence of every being in the galaxy without consent, it's multi species genocide.

#123
Noelemahc

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ericjdev wrote...

I disagree that synthesis is the most paragon option, I think it's far and away the most evil. Altering the structure/culture/essence of every being in the galaxy without consent, it's multi species genocide.

Genocide it may be, but it's the one with the least short-term damage for the Universe. And long-term damage (or lack thereof) is *supposedly* covered by the Stargazer scene.

My issue with the endings is that there are countless more implications for the options Shep has than the Creepy Cybernetic Child outlines. Why couldn't it be a Cute Cuddly Cuttlefish hologram instead?

Destroy discerns AI from everything else how? Are VIs affected? Kiss the Quarian suits and liveship functions goodbye then, the ones that are stranded in Sol System are now either dead or dying from infection and/or starvation. If you united the Quarians and the Geth - pile on every Quarian system that had a Geth runtime in it. Including all the people who volunteered their suits for the immunostimulation training. They're dead or dying a lot faster than the rest of'em because those "simulated" diseases and viruses are now out of control.
The ones left on Rannoch might have a chance if they go commando, but will THEY survive it? Look how long it took Tali to adapt just to Shep alone (the implication being that they copulated or otherwise interacted on a non-suit-involving level between ME2 and ME3 enough for her to joke about "begging for it" when she comes aboard in ME3; she says she's adapted to him by the final romance scene of ME3, that's at least two sex acts we see in ME3 on-camera).

Then bring in every system that uses a VI. Hello, technological dark age. This is a large-scale equivalent of power going out in a hospital - sure, some patients will make it out okay, but the people on life support or in the OR are pretty much SOL. 

This is Anderson's opinion, and we are colourfully suggested that it is a Renegade one.

Control... brings up the same issue. Suddenly, we can control just the Reapers, separately from all other AIs (or VIs?), a distinction the Destroy ending is incapable of for no apparent reason. Can we has Reapers take a dive into Haestrom's dying sun? Or the Omega 4 Relay, if it's still there once the Crucible fires? Far safer than simply chasing them back into darkspace. Would've made one hell of an epic cutscene too, turning the Galaxy's Most Fearsome Predators into little more than cybernetic lemmings plunging to their doom.

This is TIM's option (though he would have you enslave the Reapers instead, or at least chase them off after pillaging their tech and resources). It is shown in Paragon colours, and seems rather benevolent... until you recall that the Reapers house whatever is left of the most prominent civilizations destroyed in the previous cycles. Liara is doing whatever's the opposite of the bouncing she did when we dug up Javik (so magnify the sensation she had when he started speaking a thousand fold). Oh, and Shep dies.

Synthesis... the OP outlines the issues I have with it pretty well, actually, except underscoring that it is Saren's plan. Hoo boy, Shep does like to go back on what he did in ME1, huh? FIrst the genophage cure, then getting a human on the Council, and now this. I'm sorry, Mr. Arterius, that I convinced you to ventilate your brain, you were actually RIGHT.
(or that is what BioWare's writers apparently wanted us to say without saying it flat-out)

People have been bringing up the DAO ending options a lot in relation to this and to them I say... frell it, you're right! We DO have a precedent of an ending when the protagonist can sacrifice him/her/itself in order to bring about world peace! Within the same company's gameography, no less! (except that in that one, we DO get to see what it causes!)

Seriously, if that doesn't constitute a cop-out on their part, I do not know what does

Compared to not outlining the scope of the holocausts each ending causes, the unjustified and unconnected-to-the-plot stranding of the Normandy is a non-issue, really =)

Modifié par Noelemahc, 31 mars 2012 - 07:16 .


#124
a.m.p

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Noelemahc wrote...

My issue with the endings is that there are countless more implications for the options Shep has than the Creepy Cybernetic Child outlines. Why couldn't it be a Cute Cuddly Cuttlefish hologram instead?


Ah, implications. See, I have this horrible feeling that whoever wrote these endings, simply did not bother to think past the immediate moral choice and apply them to the universe they created.
And how that happened, I honestly can not understand.

#125
Psythorn

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/sign
/push

However I would never try to write a new ending for Bioware - that's neither my job nor my expertise... But my job as a consumer is to like something and buy it or to not like something and either not buy it, return it, complain... whatever...
So here I am and I am complaining for exactly the reasons described here...
Thanks to OP for writing this ...

Modifié par Psythorn, 01 avril 2012 - 09:38 .