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Still sore about the ending? This may help soothe one of those wounds (dev comments).


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#151
AlphaJarmel

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Heldenbrand wrote...

The more accurate parallel would be; now imagine after Leningrad has been completely cut off from the rest of the world. Those few people who managed to survive the brutality of the war and its unadulterated destruction now have to somehow scrape together survival without trade, without agriculture (after all, I imagine the fields aren't in good shape, neither is the livestock) and with a population that has been severely depleted.

I imagine at this point many homeworld civilizations no longer depend upon locally grown crops but likely import due to massive urban congestion. The soil is likely in no shape to support growth and the amount of fires have likely polluted the atmospheres severely. Also consider that a majority of all the fleets are now stuck around Earth, very likely straining that one systems resources beyond survival.

Now consider also that the Quarians who fought so hard to get their home and numbers had already suffered extreme losses due to the war with the Geth are now trapped in the Sol system as well, with a smaller segment of their population on Rannoch. Now let's say you took the good ending and all those Geth that were supporting them suddenly are destroyed. All those Geth that were helping them rebuild and repair their immune systems.

Now lets look at the Krogan. They were cured of their genophage, but held together solely by the leadership of Wrex and Eve. Wrex has been trapped on Earth, so now Eve has to hold it together.  Their planet was already devastated by nuclear conflict; I doubt any livestock or crops are going to grow there.  Now look at the fact they are very likely facing a sudden population explosion and have suddently been cut off from the rest of the galaxy.  How long will it take them to turn on them in the same manner that Thane described happening to his own planet?

It's silly writing to expect that; "the war is over, things are rough but life goes on". They're right, life does go on but most of the civilizations would be absolutely ruined for thousands of years to come. Some civilizations may not survive at all.

Even in the 'nice' ending the goal of the Reapers has been accomplished. Space faring civilizations have been set back to industrial or pre-industrial levels and many other species may just go extinct.


Yea this about sums it up.

#152
Neverwinter_Knight77

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All of the great moments of bonds of friendship (like Garrus) and individual sacrifice (like Thane) mean absolutely NOTHING in the end.  And poor, poor Tali...

Shepard never gets to see any of them again.

Modifié par Neverwinter_Knight77, 10 mars 2012 - 11:08 .


#153
justie

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Some stupid quote from a dev doesn't soothe me when I realized I spent 60 dollars on an ending that is filled with plot holes and goes ruins the entire trilogy in 4 minutes.

#154
Wattoes

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justie wrote...

Some stupid quote from a dev doesn't soothe me when I realized I spent 60 dollars on an ending that is filled with plot holes and goes ruins the entire trilogy in 4 minutes.


This.

#155
Guest_ShadowJ20_*

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Wattoes wrote...

justie wrote...

Some stupid quote from a dev doesn't soothe me when I realized I spent 60 dollars on an ending that is filled with plot holes and goes ruins the entire trilogy in 4 minutes.


This.


I spent 86. (Collector's Edition)

#156
MPSai

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Patriota125 wrote...

Kloborgg711 wrote...

Except I don't give a flying frik about the future races in the next thousand years. I wanted to save MY cycle. That's what almost everyone wanted.


Then you are all wrong. That's what the Protheans did in the first place, thats a battle than cant be won without making huge sacrifices. So, to save upcoming cycles that had to be done. Its an realistic ending. I'm glad Bioware made this move and not the anime/twilight kind of sunshine and bunnies ending, that way they'll make true mature adult fans will enjoy it rather than bashing it.


It didn't have to be sunshine and bunnies to have Shepard and co. triumphantly do one better than the Protheans. As it stands the endings have no teeth, and acting like the destruction of the relays is a triumph when it's what connected all these species to begin with is lame. It would make more sense if their use and space travel increased dark matter etc. But in the form the endings ended up as it seems kind of unnecessary. 

Modifié par MPSai, 10 mars 2012 - 11:20 .


#157
humes spork

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KainrycKarr wrote...

Yea...this isn't the part I take issue with. The blatant plotholes are what I take issue with.


Yep. The theme and outcome wasn't itself the problem.

The problem is the ending is deus ex machina and a jumbled mess of lazy writing and disjointed cutscenes that don't flow logically from one point to the next. That's not to get into the numerous technical problems associated with the ending, like for example my Shepard seeing Ashley dead at the foot of the Conduit and ten minutes later she steps out of the crashed Normandy with Joker on Random Garden World, naught a scratch on her.

Heck, I'm even totally down for the bad destroy ending that heavily implies the Crucible misfired and killed all organic life in the galaxy anyways. Just as long as the ending is logical and follows a comprehensible narrative structure, which it doesn't.

Modifié par humes spork, 10 mars 2012 - 11:28 .


#158
LMShepard

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jestermarcus wrote...

FTL is far too slow for the species to ever see each other again. It would take years, maybe centuries for a ship flying at FTL to make it to Thessia from Earth. Interstellar trade is over.


Right.  No mass relays means that all those races and their big guns are stuck in the Sol system.  Sure FTL travel gets them around the cluster...but everyone is stuck in our solar system.  Where do all those allied fleets go now, while trying to figure out how to get back to their respective homes in other clusters?  How much resources are available to everyone when it was really only enough to sustain the humans?  Probably not enough.  When each race now needs to survive and get their chunk of available resources...and they are already representing with their full military might...guess what will result?  War.  More war.  More chaos.  How is that like Leningrad?  How is that a happy ending? 

#159
DarkSpider88

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justie wrote...

Some stupid quote from a dev doesn't soothe me when I realized I spent 60 dollars on an ending that is filled with plot holes and goes ruins the entire trilogy in 4 minutes.


Winner Winner Chicken Dinner!

#160
Neverwinter_Knight77

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Copied and pasted my post from another topic, but it's more relevant in this one. Anybody who has played this series from day one and formed emotional attachments to these characters knows that the endings were absolutely terrible. Why give the illusion of hope in ME3, only to stomp it out? Why make this the greatest game ever, and then have the last 15 minutes completely ruin the entire series?

#161
Esquin

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One of the devs who tried to "hold the line" tries to defend a terrible ending. In my mind the writers for Rannoch and Tuchanka aren't at fault. They did what they could to give us an amazing game.

Then someone else came along and gave us an ending that made it all irrelevant. To the people defending this ending, I ask you. What was the point of anything we did in other games? The entire galaxy as we know it just got destroyed. Nothing we've done to now matters anyway. All our choices, all our actions, they're meaningless. Not because they don't contribute to the ending, but because nothing about them matters after it.

Well done bioware. You killed the greatest sci fi universe of our generation. The story could have been great. And you ruined it.

Where was the 4th option? The option to step back and just let it happen. For so long Shepard has chosen free will over servitude. He hasn't let us be controlled, that was most of his motivation. But then that happens? I want the option to go back and say no. I won't take your choices weird holo-kid. We'll beat you with guns if we must.

I then walk away. Liara and Tali work to erase the crucible from all the beacons and black boxes for the next cycle. We try to warn the next cycle of the reapers in case we cannot win. But I make damn sure that this, this 'choice' is never offered again.

#162
jeweledleah

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1. the epilogue with grandpa suggests that contrary to assurances of FTL travel being possible... apparently - its not. becasue Shepard is a legend, and people will go back to the stars... some day. this requires several generations to get to that point. I'd say at least 4.
2. to people saying that they couldn't have acknowledged all the decisions that you made. in Mass effect 2 - every upgrade to the Normandy results in a direct acknowledgment. "as long as new plating holds. then its a good thing we upgraded those shields. lets break out our new gun - give them hell, EDI" it didn't even have to have much of a different animation. just a direct acknowledgment of its affect on a final mission. delayed too much? half your crew died. didn't resolve a loyalty issue? crewmate is distracted and can die under some circumstances. made the wrong choice of a specialist? another death.

even in mass effect 1, choosing to focus on the sovereign results in a different cut scene and has a discernible effect in ME2.

the biggest issue with the endings is that they really do make it sound like everything you did before, treaties you brokered, people you helped, resources you gathered. in the end - they make no difference. they don't turn the tide of the battle in any discernible way. suddenly - you are face with a choice that had no build up, no explanation, nothing. and its so very jarring after the rest of the game, where you would directly get different outcomes to smaller individual missions based on choices you made before. the endings spit on all that.

and in some ways, they did have a bit of an epic feel to them. the same way dying in suicide mission had an epic feel to it. but as the only options, no matter what you do? and with no real buildup, just being sprung on you like that? bad writing. bad execution.

#163
AlphaJarmel

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raeting wrote...

Be careful about assumptions on the ability of planets to rebuild. Even without FTL travel the galaxy could recover. If conventional FTL travel (no relays, but ships still work fine), then it is even easier.

So, lets assume, for a moment, that FTL travel is gone entirely.

The damage done during the attack? Well, most every major metropolitan area is flattened. Or, at least looks like it suffered a nasy carbet-bombing. Remember what Anderson said, though. The Reapers were after the major metropolitan areas. Not the countryside. The resistance held out for a long time -- even traveled across an ocean to make it to London. Reapers aren't everywhere.

So, the Earth was overwhelmed by reapers, but not blanketed by them. A lot of people died. But not all of them. Large portions of rural areas, even farmland, likely remained relatively untouched. Shepard only gave them a few months to try and wipe out 57 million square miles of land. The Reapers are strong, but given that they split their effort around most of the galaxy, a good portion of those 57 million square miles is just fine. We are talking about hundreds, maybe low-thousands, of reaper ships. Not millions.

Furthermore, the amount of non-perishable food stored around the world, even today, is far more than you might imagine. It takes time for cereal, canned goods, rice, and so on to make it to your local grocery store. Until then, it sits in a warehouse. Given that the Earth is now supporting a much smaller population, those stores could last a while on their own. Plus what you can scavenge from the cities. Assuming, as well, the oceans aren't overfished by then, a huge source of relatively easy to capture protein is available.

So, yeah, food is an issue, but we aren't looking at mass starvation.

Now, there's good reason to think every space-faring ship was knocked out of orbit. Less reason to think, however, that all technology is gone. Humans have a great deal of shuttles, fighters, and other small ships as logisitical support. Plus, a huge workforce of civilians eager to see some sense of normalcy return to their lives. 

All in all, Earth has a good chance to do just fine. It has plenty of farmland to sustain itself -- even with all the aliens. I would be deeply surprised if any krogan females are even on earth, so overpopulation there is probably not a problem.

Just a matter of humans picking themselves up and getting to work. Even with AIs wiped out, it looks like most technology survives, so the re-establishment of a central government shouldn't be a problem. Especially if that government is the one that kicked the reapers out. Stand up, rebuild, get things back to normal, and move on. May take a couple hundred years before Earth is gleaming again, but it will get there. Some cities may remain rubble for a long time, even be abandoned, but not all of them.

There are a few planets, Noveria, for example, that do not have arable land. Those people will starve. But, Earth, Eden Prime, Horizon, and so on should all be just fine. Along with all the homeworlds of the major races and some of their primary colonies. All you need is enough arable land to farm, and some food supplies to last you a couple years and make up for farming shortfalls. Difficult, but not impossible.

The one race I'd put in dire straits is the Quarians. Their liveships took part in the battle. Hopefully they kept enough in reserve to feed their people on Rannoch (assuming they weren't outright destroyed by the mass relays). Otherwise, the Quarians will have to figure out farming very, very quickly.

So, yeah, I can see the galaxy becoming little pockets of rebuilt civilization relatively quickly. The absence of FTL just means it may be a very, very long time before trade between planets resume. 

If FTL is available, then it becomes even easier. Take a cruiser, fill it with fuel, now you can run limited supplies and information between the races. Doing so will speed recovery significantly. Someone will figure out there's money to be made in making FTL travel more reasonable. It'll happen and the galaxy will get back to business.


There is no equivelant in human history in regards to what the Reapers did.  You're talking destruction of large amounts of the population, infrastructure, trade, communication, and government.  It would take thousands of years for society to recover if it ever did.

It's not just the Reaper ships that are killing but the husks too.  The husks are probably the main methods for rounding people up as the Reapers can't exactly get everywhere.  It's also hard to deduct how long all of ME3 would have taken in real time.  My guess is minimum of 6 months going to a year.  The reason I'm stating that long is because of the Crucible.  The way they described the project would require extreme amounts of time even in ideal situations.  Yes there are more available resources than any other project in history but it would still be an enormous undertaking as you can see from the scale when compared to other ships or even the Citadel itself.  So let's go with 6 months of the Reapers able to do whatever they want.  On Palaven we know the Reapers took 3 million in the first day and 5 million in the second.  Palaven wasn't also hit as hard as Earth and had a stronger military and populace protecting it.  We know atleast that 9 million died on Earth in a week due to the intro trailer.  I would actually argue that the 9 million dead is based solely around the London metropolitan area.  The reason I state this is because of the lack of communications that Anderson and Hackett mention in ME3 itself so therefore the sniper in Big Ben would not have had access to the full number and probably neither would have Anderson.  So the current London metropolitan population size is 13 million.  Now there would obviously be an increase in the size of London but even if it increase to say 20 million(which I doubt just due to congestion issues), 9 million dead in a week is extremely devasting.  Either way within two weeks you could state that most metropolitan areas are looking at over 50% dead if not higher.  Now this would obviously decrease due to diminishing returns for the Reapers but you're definitely looking at billions dead.

The grocery stores could easily be wrecked due to wreckage from the huge battle that happened right outside the atmosphere or the Reapers themselves destroying buildings simply by walking around.  Yes it could possibly support a lower population but I'm sure a good amount of food is simply going to be buried in rubble.  Then most of the farmland will be wiped out as well not to mention the people needed to actually farm the remaining the land.  Yes it should be survivable but not without an extremely harsh transition period.  Here's the kicker though, I was only taking into account humans with the above food calculations.  Now Earth and possible nearby habitable planets(which there are pretty few) have to provide for the entire remaining fleet which can comprise of Krogans, Quarians, Turians, Rachni, Asari, Salarians, Drell, Hanar, and Elcor.  Let's hope you didn't give those Krogans that genophage cure otherwise that population boom is now happening on Earth.  Now since earth is obviously not a dextro-based planet, the Turians and Quarians have two main options.  They either come up with some sort of food converter which would put even more of a strain on the limited food supply or they find a planet via FTL that could possibly work for farming purposes.  This would also have to be organized relatively quickly due to having to provide for these large populations before they starve to death.  Hopefully in regards to water, humans have come up with a more effective means of converting salt water to fresh water otherwise that would become a serious issue as well due to the destruction of transportation centers.  It's easy to forget even know how much civilization depends on trade due to specialization of economies.

As for the colonies, they're up **** creek without a paddle.  Illium almost certainly depends heavily on trade, Omega definitely does and Noveria obviously.  Even if they have the farmable land doesn't mean that a large portion of the population knows how to farm or even has the infrastructure or technology in place to utilize it. That's also excluding the amount of damage that Cerberus and the Reapers themselves did to these colonies.  Then you have the lack of communication and government that might make it possible to reorganize in a timely manner. I would assume most of the government leaders are trapped on Earth.

Even with FTL it doesn't make the situation any less grim.  This is because the distance is still so large.  It would take 25 years to cross from one end of the galaxy to another and that's just a one way trip.  Now to an Asari or Krogan that's not that big of a deal, excluding psychological issues of course from long peiods on a space ship, but for a human or Turian whose life span is 150, that's a good chunk.  For a Salarian that's obviously a one way trip.  Then there is supplying food for that long of a trip, something we in modern times are having issues with in regards to long voyages.  It's very hard to plan for a 5 or even 10 year trip in regards to food supplies.  Those time frames also only calculate in a direct trip not taking into account problems or temporary pitstops.

Modifié par AlphaJarmel, 10 mars 2012 - 11:42 .


#164
SmokePants

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manwiththemachinegun wrote...

I know we're all still processing the ending. But I thought this dev comment gave me a lot of hope for the future of the Mass Effect universe (especially since people are screaming for Dev responses).

This is from the awesome, awesome dude who wrote a lot of Mordin's lines and ME3 sidequests.

Fan Question: A'ight, you don't have to answer this if you don't want too, but is every ending you losing? The one I read was the mass relays being destroyed or somesuch, I didn't dig too deep but it sounded like the reapers got rid of effective FTL travel.

Dev response: That's one way to look at it. Another way to look at it is that the galaxy is free from the specially limited technology that the Reapers have been using to guide evolution from time before memory.

My boss talks about Leningrad after WW2. A whole lotta dead people. A whole lotta buildings knocked down. The war really kicked the crap out of it.

I went to Saint Petersburg (aka Leningrad) back in 2004. It's a gorgeous city full of vibrant people, wonderful art, great food (and sure, crime, pollution, poverty, and all the bad stuff, too). From the end of the war, that's, what, 60 years?

A lot of planets are going to be looking like Leningrad at the end of ME3. That doesn't mean that they lost, and it doesn't mean that they've been destroyed forever.

There is light at the end of the tunnel folks. Image IPB

Do people really need to have it explained to them? Does this kind of stuff escape the grasp of so many?

If anybody looks at the ending choice as lose-lose, it's because they are not a well-rounded person with any kind of perspective. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.

#165
AlphaJarmel

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SmokePants wrote...
Do people really need to have it explained to them? Does this kind of stuff escape the grasp of so many?

If anybody looks at the ending choice as lose-lose, it's because they are not a well-rounded person with any kind of perspective. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.


Please.  Certain countries are still demining mines from World War 2.  There's a bunch left in Egypt last I remember and World War 2 is almost 70 years ago.  Now think about a world where there's extremely limited trade, reduced communication and infrastructure, and an extremely reduced population size or a serious overpopulation issue(both of which cause serious problems).  Now exponentially increase the scale and you start to have an idea of the carnage.  The galaxy is essentially screwed beyond all imagining.

That's not even including a transitional phase due to the aliens having to adjust to living in Earth's atmosphere in which certain illnesses might spring up.

The true winner in all this though might be the Krogan or Rachni if you helped them.  Either group will be the new masters of Earth due to their reproduction rate.

That quote by the developer reeks of selectionist history.

Modifié par AlphaJarmel, 10 mars 2012 - 11:55 .


#166
Patriota125

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justie wrote...

Some stupid quote from a dev doesn't soothe me when I realized I spent 60 dollars on an ending that is filled with plot holes and goes ruins the entire trilogy in 4 minutes.



What are those plotholes.

#167
suusuuu

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Why are they retconning? Wasn't it already established that upon the destruction of a Mass Relay it explodes killing nearly all life in the system?

#168
ChaosMarky

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It would have been great to have an additional ending scene (after the cutscenes) similar to dragon age origins: a group of text written endings that tells us what happens to the rest of the galaxy after!

The ending CGs and cutscenes were great but.... If ME3 is going to be the last of the series then we need a proper closure. No need for fancy CGs or whatnot, just a couple of text written endings that tells us what happens to the rest of the galaxy after the war. I think having this would be enough to grant us closure. It would be nice to know what happens to the quarians and geth after all our decisions. Or what happens to the krogans and their "new empire" after being free of the genophage (or their extiction). Heck, i wanna know what happens to my squadmates after my "sacrifice"!

Please conisder Devs. I wouldn't demand you guys to re-create an entirely new CG ending to a game. But making a DLC that enables this DAO text-ending feature should be easier AND enough for most of us.

Also, I think the normandy crash scene in the end is [indeed] confusing and posts too many "what-if" questions that mitigates the impact of a "closure".

#169
humes spork

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SmokePants wrote...

Do people really need to have it explained to them? Does this kind of stuff escape the grasp of so many?

If anybody looks at the ending choice as lose-lose, it's because they are not a well-rounded person with any kind of perspective. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.


I'm particularly loathe to sound like an ass, but quit building straw men by assuming people who don't like the ending are "too stupid to get it". We get it, we really do. That's not the problem.

The problem, as others have vehemently and repeatedly stated, is the ending is deus ex machina. It has no logical progression from cutscene to cutscene and no exposition. It raises more questions, answers few if any, contradicts itself, and has no sense of closure.

The problem and complaints about the ending aren't entirely "why did BW have to destroy the mass relays?" or even "why did Shepard die?". They're things like "how is Ashley on the Normandy alive and unharmed when I just saw Harbinger kill her?", or "how did Anderson beat us to the console platform when there was only one way in or out and we didn't so much as even see him?" (and no, "the Citadel changed its architecture" isn't a sufficient answer given we still would have seen that architectural change itself).

Simply put, the ending is a jumbled mess of cutscenes that don't flow with any sense of logical progression, glitches, and massive plotholes. That's the problem, not whether we're smart enough to figure stuff out on our own.

Modifié par humes spork, 11 mars 2012 - 12:21 .


#170
falloutgod13

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chairslayer wrote...

It still doesn't excuse the ****** poor writing


True that! 

#171
Zulmoka531

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SmokePants wrote...

manwiththemachinegun wrote...

I know we're all still processing the ending. But I thought this dev comment gave me a lot of hope for the future of the Mass Effect universe (especially since people are screaming for Dev responses).

This is from the awesome, awesome dude who wrote a lot of Mordin's lines and ME3 sidequests.

Fan Question: A'ight, you don't have to answer this if you don't want too, but is every ending you losing? The one I read was the mass relays being destroyed or somesuch, I didn't dig too deep but it sounded like the reapers got rid of effective FTL travel.

Dev response: That's one way to look at it. Another way to look at it is that the galaxy is free from the specially limited technology that the Reapers have been using to guide evolution from time before memory.

My boss talks about Leningrad after WW2. A whole lotta dead people. A whole lotta buildings knocked down. The war really kicked the crap out of it.

I went to Saint Petersburg (aka Leningrad) back in 2004. It's a gorgeous city full of vibrant people, wonderful art, great food (and sure, crime, pollution, poverty, and all the bad stuff, too). From the end of the war, that's, what, 60 years?

A lot of planets are going to be looking like Leningrad at the end of ME3. That doesn't mean that they lost, and it doesn't mean that they've been destroyed forever.

There is light at the end of the tunnel folks. Image IPB

Do people really need to have it explained to them? Does this kind of stuff escape the grasp of so many?

If anybody looks at the ending choice as lose-lose, it's because they are not a well-rounded person with any kind of perspective. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.

It's great that he pointed that out. Too bad there is no epilogue to detail anything about the future of the ME universe. Damage control and deflective answer modes activated.
And people aren't stupid. They understand the endings, but it doesn't change the fact that it is only an ending in the sense that you can't play the game anymore.

#172
BloodClaw95

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...deja vu...

#173
Ultra Prism

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Explain why Joker would flee without hearing out Shepard's last order, he will first defy to save him

#174
The Angry One

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Awful response.
You established that mass relays devastate systems.
You began ME3 on the heels of this development.

You killed everybody! There's nothing to rebuild! They are DEAD.

And yeah, Stalingrad. Sure. Good luck rebuilding Stalingrad if it took you a thousand years to reach the next city block.

Modifié par The Angry One, 11 mars 2012 - 12:55 .


#175
Ultra Prism

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Gigerstreak wrote...

http://www.ign.com/b...em-the-trilogy/


Yes this guy Star Trek fan and knew what was wrong with ME3 ending, Biowareeeeee...just put me out of misery or garbage endings