BigBad wrote...
If you knowingly start a relationship with a character who has an incurable terminal illness, do you really get to complain when that illness turns out to actually be both incurable and terminal?
And is it really so offensive that instead of being afraid and mournful, he has accepted his death and become at peace with his life in the little time he has left?
Just curious as to what the issue is, exactly.
HOSHHHHHHH. WAY TOO MUCH AND WAY TOO LATE. Dang, do I get caught up. Oh well, leaving it up just because I'd feel like even more of a loser if I deleted all I said, but it's the same thing said everywhere else so you can totally just ignore this and move on now, sorry.
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I hope this wall of text can help represent some opinions for Thanemancers.
Glad to see a discussion from both sides, and your question is a good one. You didn't seem flamey at all.For me, personally, there are a few issues. I'm fine with him dying. I never expected, or even considered, a cure. Even when Thane mentioned the Hanar scientists. It was not until I bought LotSB that I had any thoughts on Thane being saved. I thought perhaps it'd be an option, maybe something with a sidequest, or a decision like Virmire, if not for the fans, for the RPG elements. Or, based on Bioware's obvious pride when ME2 came out, for the developers themselves to show off more of this character they worked so hard creating. Some have said he was particularly challenging, being targeting at the female fan base, but that his creation was rewarding. Anyways, the "cure outcome" was equally weighted with the thoughts that they wouldn't cure him. It seemed a rather large, though not singular, part of his personality and story. I wouldn't seem them just letting that go easily. Regardless, I thought he would last into the game longer than he did.
In ME2, everything was really about the characters. The mainplot never really carried forward into 3. It was all loyalty missions and relationships. I still enjoyed to focus on the Collectors, but I can see why many fans thought it was more of a filler or a "hate Cerberus more". Just as Thane (or Kirrahee) being stabbed was seen as "hate Kai Leng more".
ME3 does not focus on the characters as much. Not unless you go with fan favorites, such as Liara or Garrus. After 6 months, I can see his Kepral's being even worse, as evident by his stay in Huerta. And I can even see him truly finding peace with the little time he has left. At the beginning of 2, he was in a similar stage, but it was more of a... sense of denial in my eyes. He didn't seem to care about his mortality, even sort of threw himself at death's door in some ways. But he was still very concerned about making peace with Kolyat. So I thought he was seemingly "at peace" with dying only because he didn't think he could make up for his mistakes as a father. But he still had hope, hence his loyalty mission, and once he does reconnect with Kolyat, he has so much more to live for that he isn't ready to die. For romanced Sheps, this is even more so, evident in the pre-suicide mission dialogue. But by ME3, he's had his time with his son, more time to reflect his life in a different environment because Kepral's is no longer just pain, no longer just a coming demise. Instead, he's significantly weaker and it's more present, and that culminated with his actions in ME2, keeps him from being an assassin. So I can kind of understand him returning to that accepting life. For non-romanced Sheps, it makes perfect sense.
But for Thanemancers, it doesn't. Because he didn't spend those 6 months with Shepard as he likely did with Kolyat. There's no closure, for either side, with the relationship. It makes more sense in that situation for Thane to still want to live, as he did when last with Shepard. With just friendship, he's going off of what he last felt with Kolyat, which I can assume changed off-screen during those six months as they spent time together on the Citadel. Therefore, there should have been a difference between the relationship with Thane for non-romanced and romanced Shepards. A significant one that was able to change dialogue and actions beyond an interrupting kiss, some huggy/gropy/make out scene in the hospital, and a few 'siha'. There's was nothing else beyond that. It's just a dialogue loop. "No private time, too strenuous. Let's talk. But I don't have anything else to talk about."
There were a lot of conversation topics that I feel should have been implemented into the romance arc. As many have said, there were "hints" to a cure. Hanar, medigel, lung transplant, and even though it's too late, even Kolyat's blood donation gave extremely brief "hope". Now, these cures don't have to be used. I'm not saying Thane should live and kick ass all the way to the end. But the options would have been great things to discuss. A "why didn't you take the transplant?" would not have to send Thane running to surgery, but it could have been used as a way to continue the romance or learn more about Thane. Or even the Drell in general.
So there's no continuation, no growth or expansion to the romance arc. He could've just died offscreen for the little role he seemed to play. I felt like they made Kirrahee take the hit, then remembered he could have died in some playthroughs and had to use someone else. And who better than the morally grey but still "good" assassin character destined to die anyways? It works for some people, but for others it seems a little silly to others. Likewise, the prayer can get mixed reviews. It's pretty, and it keeps up his spiritualism, but it's the only scene of it's kind in ME3, while Thane prayed more frequently in ME2, even during combat. And there's no difference in the prayers, or Kolyat's or Thane's or Shepard's response if Thane was romanced. It would seem there'd be some sort of difference, even if not in the actual prayer itself, between the two situations. An "I love you" or "My dad really, really cares about you" or anything (much more eloquent of course, haha) would have made the distinction and would have been appreciated. Without any distinction, it feels as though there isn't a difference, and therefore not a point, in romancing Thane.
Continuing after his death there are still some problems. No one seems to acknowledge his death. He wasn't as tied to the plot in ME2 as say, Miranda who was involved in Cerberus. But he was still present, still assisted with the suicide mission, and was, for some playthroughs, a constant squad mate and the LI of the Normandy's captain. Additionally, he's the only Drell. I can't see these facts being forgotten by the crewmates, so why was there no reaction? Why didn't Shepard seem upset, why did no one offer comfort or question it? His name gets put on the memorial wall, and he never has any relevance again. If the death of a child or the incidents of Virmire were able to shake up Shepard as much as they were, why would the death of an LI not be equally, perhaps even more, traumatizing? The child represents Earth and humanity, but also the innocent. Of course that'd be scarring. The loss of Virmire is the loss of someone from close combat, a friend. But Thane, as he's not human, can represent the increasing death count of the galaxy as a whole, while maintaining the personal loss felt from Virmire, if not significantly more so because he was an LI equally involved in close combat who didn't chew you out on Horizon.
Finally, there are just little things that are irking. He doesn't appear in the codex, even under Known Associates. Now that transfer from ME2 to ME3 couldn't have been that hard. His mug is left in Life Support, which stays open even though it has no use, which is weird compared to ME2 where they left some rooms closed when they weren't in use. People who didn't buy LotSB can get the Shadow Broker dossier (which is a rather touching letter
. I can see them wanting to give those who didn't buy LotSB or see in on Youtube or the wikia a way to get the letter, but there's nothing extra for those who already had it. It was kind of pointless. Especially because it wasn't a significant enough romance to reward the Paramour achievement.These little things just add up to make it seem, from my eyes, as though they kind of forgot about Thane all together. I guess because it's a fine character story/end for non-romancers that they just didn't really worry about the romance arc and so they thought it'd be okay to just send the same letter or add in a few "siha". They thought that'd be enough to carry "closure" for the romance arc, since it was enough to bring closure for the non-romance arc. Normally, there isn't such a dramatic distinction, but because the romanced vs. non-romanced Thane/Shepard relationships were so different, the situation/dialogue/scenes/reaction/prayer scene/etc should have all been altered in some way to add something more for the Thanemancers. Unfortunately, we were sort of forgotten.
And that added in with the general lack of LIs for F!Shep, espeically heterosexual ones, makes it seem that much worse. I would always romance Thane, because that's my cannon and I feel he works best with my Shep. Garrus is too much of a bro, and I didn't really like Kaidan. I liked him better in ME1, and I sympathize with the fans that lost him in ME2, but they got him back in ME3. There's no return of Thane. On that note, I also felt like the developers tried to hide the flawed arc behind Kaidan. Your Shepard defaults in Huerta that she's there for Kaidan. My Shep wasn't, and a simple choice between "I'm here for Kaidan", "I'm here for you, Thane", or even some nice middle ground with "I'm here to visit my crew member. He got banged up bad and I'm worried about it. But I'm so happy to see you." would have changed that scene just a little to make it seem better. Then Kaidan's all, "You cheated on me even though I took a doctor out the dinner and said I was moving on and was cold to you on Horizon and seemed from all perspectives to have ended the relationship". I know Kaidan, Ashley, and Liara were always meant to be THE LIs, and that the fans love them, and that the team is proud of them, but not everyone wants to romance Kaidan for the achievement. Likewise, not everyone wants to run back to ME2 to get Garrus (I lost my Garrus save, and as I prefer Thane more, I don't really wanna replay ME2 just for Garrus. I do playthroughs all the time but I just prefer having Thane. It's not enough replayability in ME3 to encourage me to run back to ME2). You're even worse off if you killed Kaidan on Virmire. There's no options then, unless you wanna go F/F which isn't a problem for me personally, but the fact that there is no choice detracts from the game.
Now this is all romance stuff. I still enjoy the game and quests and plot and characters, and the romance options are not all the ME is to me. There's a heeeck of a lot more. But it is an integral part of ME, and Bioware games in general, and so I do not feel that F!Sheps were treated equally, or that ME2 romances were treated equally. The romance aspects were a letdown, even an outright fail (Jacob D:) in most cases, unless you chose a favorite like ME1 characters (including Garrus and Tali). I think Thane also lost a lot of fanbase not just because of his personality, his career, his views on killing, his family relationships, or anything like that. He was introduced at a baaad time. No Kaidan/Ashley/Liara around? Well then every old face in ME2 was clung to harder, because their characters are the "old guys", evoking nostalgia, familiarity, etc. Then he's made an LI at the same time Garrus is, and based on the fanbase for Garrus from ME1 when he wasn't romanceable, Thane was at a big disadvantage of even getting noticed. Then he's picked up super late in the game, when you have most of your squad assembled, and their personalities fleshed out, and their relationships rekindled. He also wasn't completely connected to, or integrated into, the main plot. So it's not so much his character or story or design as it might be the wrong timing/placement of his character. And he might just resonate with a different crowd. Most of his fans seem older or quieter. I'm pretty young and I obviously talk way too much (sorry by the way), but I know a lot of fans that enjoy him but simply don't get onto the BSN or twitter or make any kind of cry out to Bioware. So maybe they just don't notice his fanbase as much. I still think, with the way he was placed in ME2 and his treatment in ME3, that if he doesn't have a large fanbase, he has a significant minority that is loyal. This is sort of arbitrary, but just as an example, Kaidan has 30 pages of fanfic (K-M) on fanfiction.net. He's from ME1, when he was the only hetero/human option for F!Sheps. Thane, who's a late character, who's an alien physically, and who's an alien mentally by not really having that "I must feel guilt for killing" and such, has 15. That seems low, but I think it's great all things considering.
I hope this helped! Sorry it's more like an essay. From now on I'm limiting myself to a paragraph, promise. I'd be glad to discuss more!
Modifié par Niemalna, 24 mars 2012 - 07:43 .
Retour en haut
I mean, yes Thane fans are a minority, but there is still quite a big fan base for him.. 
Then ME2 comes along and he is just a jerk IMO. I was sitting there thinking, "dude, I've been dead for 2 effing years and I come back and you're mad because I'm stuck with Cerberus?! Fuuuuu!" Heck, Garrus was even in my sqaud basically tell him he didn't understand (thanks, Garrus). So, hell yea, my femshep moved on. 
I was like, I know biotics gotta eat, but I'm sure they have very good meat substitutes in the future 
