80 réponses à ce sujet

[Original182]

Andraste existing is a very strong case that the Maker exists, because Andraste herself believed in the Maker till the very end.
There may be other explanations for how Andraste's ashes can heal Arl Eamon's disease that cannot be cured by magic, but how come it hasn't been replicated?
Thus by default, the healing power of Andraste's ashes is very strong argument that the Maker exists. The healing miracle is from the Maker and not of some lyrium. Why specifically Andraste's ashes, and not other ashes?

Until there is another proof where the ashes of someone else can heal an incurable illness like what Arl Eamon has, until such a thing is replicated, by default Andraste's ashes is proof that the Maker exists. Consider it a miracle from the Maker for his most devout follower.

Modifié par Original182, 27 novembre 2009 - 09:11 .

[Original182]

Now I imagine that this is a similar scenario to how Morrigan feels about the chantry.

I disagree. Morrigan is hopelessly biased towards the Chantry and Templars, due to the way she was raised.
In your real life example, you were not out to take every single opportunity to attack any hint of religion, but you were genuinely concerned by errors and wish to merely debate or correct those people.

Morrigan's stance isn't as diplomatic or open-minded.

[Original182]

In the first blessing that I received from a Revered Mother in Lothering I think, Morrigan was with me kneeling and praying!



In the second one in Redcliffe, she was with the others standing back and shaking her head.



Lothering's case was probably a bug, but maybe.... Morrigan simply lost her faith or has a love/hate relationship with the Maker?

[Alex Savchovsky]

Original182 wrote...

Andraste existing is a very strong case that the Maker exists, because Andraste herself believed in the Maker till the very end.
There may be other explanations for how Andraste's ashes can heal Arl Eamon's disease that cannot be cured by magic, but how come it hasn't been replicated?
Thus by default, the healing power of Andraste's ashes is very strong argument that the Maker exists. The healing miracle is from the Maker and not of some lyrium. Why specifically Andraste's ashes, and not other ashes?

It is a strong argument indeed, but not a solid proof. For one, there are the Old Gods, and their existence is out of question.

[Varenus Luckmann]

scrimex wrote...
She doesn't believe in the maker so how could she hate something that doesn't exist?

The same way earthly atheists hate God while espousing the belief that He doesn't exist. What you're saying is logical, but you're applying logic where there is none.

It is entirely possible to hate something while claiming that it doesn't exist. Morrigan is a pretty good example.

[Alex Savchovsky]

Varenus Luckmann wrote...

scrimex wrote...
She doesn't believe in the maker so how could she hate something that doesn't exist?

The same way earthly atheists hate God while espousing the belief that He doesn't exist. What you're saying is logical, but you're applying logic where there is none.

It is entirely possible to hate something while claiming that it doesn't exist. Morrigan is a pretty good example.

If you excuse me... being an earthly atheist myself, let me explain the topic:
We do not "hate" the gods - as we do not accept their existence. We dislike the very concept of gods, for a number of reasons, one of them being the tendency of faith turning into fanatism. What we truly hate is the fanatism itself.
Morrigan is quite the same case, really.

[Rugaru]

Original182 wrote...

Andraste existing is a very strong case that the Maker exists, because Andraste herself believed in the Maker till the very end.
There may be other explanations for how Andraste's ashes can heal Arl Eamon's disease that cannot be cured by magic, but how come it hasn't been replicated?
Thus by default, the healing power of Andraste's ashes is very strong argument that the Maker exists. The healing miracle is from the Maker and not of some lyrium. Why specifically Andraste's ashes, and not other ashes?

Until there is another proof where the ashes of someone else can heal an incurable illness like what Arl Eamon has, until such a thing is replicated, by default Andraste's ashes is proof that the Maker exists. Consider it a miracle from the Maker for his most devout follower.

OK for the first statement...I believe in the spagetti monster so therefor it exists...is horribly wrong and one big prob with any religious argument.

For the rest I'll throw out a paraphrase, technology too advanced can seem like magic. In this case Magic too advanced can seem like diety. In other words just because tech/magic of now can't replicate something doesn't mean there is no explanation for it.

As far as the lyrium statement, I believe Oghren mentions the fact that there is a ton of lyrium in that room. Its possible that the urn itself had some magic cast on it, all that lyrium allowed the spell to "soak" into the ashes. Next thing you know magic ashes....

LOL for the last statement, Until you can prove that I didn't make the sun then the sun existing is proof that I am the maker.....

[Ahisgewaya]

Varenus Luckmann wrote...

scrimex wrote...
She doesn't believe in the maker so how could she hate something that doesn't exist?

The same way earthly atheists hate God while espousing the belief that He doesn't exist. What you're saying is logical, but you're applying logic where there is none.

It is entirely possible to hate something while claiming that it doesn't exist. Morrigan is a pretty good example.

Hating christians and hating god are two vastly different things. Show a little humility.
But then, I'm not an atheist, I'm an animist.

[Varenus Luckmann]

Ahisgewaya wrote...
Hating christians and hating god are two vastly different things.

Of course they are. What's your point and how does it involve me?

Ahisgewaya wrote...
Show a little humility.

[Varenus Luckmann]

Alex Savchovsky wrote...

Varenus Luckmann wrote...

scrimex wrote...
She doesn't believe in the maker so how could she hate something that doesn't exist?

The same way earthly atheists hate God while espousing the belief that He doesn't exist. What you're saying is logical, but you're applying logic where there is none.

It is entirely possible to hate something while claiming that it doesn't exist. Morrigan is a pretty good example.

If you excuse me... being an earthly atheist myself, let me explain the topic:
We do not "hate" the gods - as we do not accept their existence. We dislike the very concept of gods, for a number of reasons, one of them being the tendency of faith turning into fanatism. What we truly hate is the fanaticism itself.
Morrigan is quite the same case, really.

Not entirely true. Atheism is no a uniform belief, lacking any kinda of unifying codex. The actions of other atheists, while not inherently damning to you, says otherwise.

Again, the application of logic upon the inherently illogical (the existance of said gods, not the existance of faith itself, which is entirely logical) is.. well.. illogical.

[Ahisgewaya]

Varenus Luckmann wrote...

Ahisgewaya wrote...
Hating christians and hating god are two vastly different things.

Of course they are. What's your point and how does it involve me?

Unless you're a christian, it doesn't involve you in the slightest. 

[Varenus Luckmann]

Ahisgewaya wrote...

Varenus Luckmann wrote...

Ahisgewaya wrote...
Hating christians and hating god are two vastly different things.

Of course they are. What's your point and how does it involve me?

Unless you're a christian, it doesn't involve you in the slightest. 

I'm not. I'm an agnostic. :happy:

[Original182]

Couldar wrote...
OK for the first statement...I believe in the spagetti monster so therefor it exists...is horribly wrong and one big prob with any religious argument.

For the rest I'll throw out a paraphrase, technology too advanced can seem like magic. In this case Magic too advanced can seem like diety. In other words just because tech/magic of now can't replicate something doesn't mean there is no explanation for it.

As far as the lyrium statement, I believe Oghren mentions the fact that there is a ton of lyrium in that room. Its possible that the urn itself had some magic cast on it, all that lyrium allowed the spell to "soak" into the ashes. Next thing you know magic ashes....

LOL for the last statement, Until you can prove that I didn't make the sun then the sun existing is proof that I am the maker.....

Allow me to refute your arguments.

First, Andraste would not follow the Maker to the death, constantly pray and meditate, if there was no proof that He exists. Obviously Andraste believes that He exists, and the miraculous power of her ashes is strong proof. (more below). Nobody would die for something that isn't real. Would you die for your Flying Spaghetti Monster? Even if it's not 100% proof, at least Andraste's devotion hint at the possibility that the Maker exists.

Second, you argue that Andraste's case was just a very advanced form of magic that hasn't been discovered. Burden of proof lies then in you to prove that it is just a technological phenomenon and it isn't from the Maker.
You're asking me to believe you because "there must be some other explanation" that you cannot prove, yet you are against the followers of Andraste for believing something that you are unconvinced exists.
Technology obviously works in mysterious ways too. Yet it seem it must be beyond criticism. It must be true. Sound familiar?
Until you prove that it is a technological phenomenon, you have no right to dismiss the possibility of the Maker's miraculous power. It is at least on equal footing with your "yet to be explained technology" in terms of possibility.

Again, if you're convinced in the theory that the ashes has magical properties due to being exposed to lyrium, why hasn't this been replicated? How can the theory be true if it cannot be replicated? It remains a theory, at least no more plausible than the theory that the Maker exists.

Your last point is unfortunately very straw-man-like. I was merely asking you to prove your theories that it is just an incredible phenomenon, and not a miracle from the Maker. Burden of proof, if you will.

[Ahisgewaya]

Original182 wrote...

First, Andraste would not follow the Maker to the death, constantly pray and meditate, if there was no proof that He exists.

People do this all the time (pray and follow to the death) with things much more rediculous than this. And with no more proof than a book they read.

[Spaghetti_Ninja]

BigKevSexyMan wrote...

Are you sure she doesn't believe in the maker? Given the dragon age world, and especially the existence of the ashes it would be hard to make a case against there being a maker?

You see, that is exactly the same bogus argument creationists like to use. Hey look, a cute little baby! Awww. How can you not believe someone designed this cute little bugger?

Of course they ignore the fact that the cute little baby has an appendix, shrunken tail bone, his retinas put on his eyes in reverse, and he is likely to have a genetic defect ''programmed in'' for the future like Alzheimers or prostate/breast cancer

The fact that the ashes can apparently heal people does not mean there is a Maker, nor that Andraste was ''the real deal''. It just means her ashes were at some point imbued with healing powers. Heck, they may not even be her ashes at all, but who-knows-what.

[Spaghetti_Ninja]

Varenus Luckmann wrote...

scrimex wrote...
She doesn't believe in the maker so how could she hate something that doesn't exist?

The same way earthly atheists hate God while espousing the belief that He doesn't exist.

No they don't, they do not believe he exists, so they do not hate him. You CAN NOT hate something that does not exist.

The only thing they hate are their idiot followers who keep espousing their beliefs even without being asked.

[Spaghetti_Ninja]

Original182 wrote...

Couldar wrote...
OK for the first statement...I believe in the spagetti monster so therefor it exists...is horribly wrong and one big prob with any religious argument.

For the rest I'll throw out a paraphrase, technology too advanced can seem like magic. In this case Magic too advanced can seem like diety. In other words just because tech/magic of now can't replicate something doesn't mean there is no explanation for it.

As far as the lyrium statement, I believe Oghren mentions the fact that there is a ton of lyrium in that room. Its possible that the urn itself had some magic cast on it, all that lyrium allowed the spell to "soak" into the ashes. Next thing you know magic ashes....

LOL for the last statement, Until you can prove that I didn't make the sun then the sun existing is proof that I am the maker.....

Allow me to refute your arguments.

First, Andraste would not follow the Maker to the death, constantly pray and meditate, if there was no proof that He exists. Obviously Andraste believes that He exists, and the miraculous power of her ashes is strong proof. (more below). Nobody would die for something that isn't real. Would you die for your Flying Spaghetti Monster? Even if it's not 100% proof, at least Andraste's devotion hint at the possibility that the Maker exists.

Second, you argue that Andraste's case was just a very advanced form of magic that hasn't been discovered. Burden of proof lies then in you to prove that it is just a technological phenomenon and it isn't from the Maker.
You're asking me to believe you because "there must be some other explanation" that you cannot prove, yet you are against the followers of Andraste for believing something that you are unconvinced exists.
Technology obviously works in mysterious ways too. Yet it seem it must be beyond criticism. It must be true. Sound familiar?
Until you prove that it is a technological phenomenon, you have no right to dismiss the possibility of the Maker's miraculous power. It is at least on equal footing with your "yet to be explained technology" in terms of possibility.

Again, if you're convinced in the theory that the ashes has magical properties due to being exposed to lyrium, why hasn't this been replicated? How can the theory be true if it cannot be replicated? It remains a theory, at least no more plausible than the theory that the Maker exists.

Your last point is unfortunately very straw-man-like. I was merely asking you to prove your theories that it is just an incredible phenomenon, and not a miracle from the Maker. Burden of proof, if you will.

And let me refute this entire argument right now: the Ashes were only recently discovered! IN THE GAME, as a matter of fact! By this point in the story, Brother Gentivi has yet to launch a second expedition to recover them, therefore, nobody even has had the chance to examine them.

So it is way too early to draw conclusions to the extent that you apparently have.

[Varenus Luckmann]

Original182 wrote...
[...]

First, Andraste would not follow the Maker to the death, constantly pray and meditate, if there was no proof that He exists. Obviously Andraste believes that He exists, and the miraculous power of her ashes is strong proof. (more below). Nobody would die for something that isn't real. Would you die for your Flying Spaghetti Monster? Even if it's not 100% proof, at least Andraste's devotion hint at the possibility that the Maker exists.

[...]

There is an excellent example of this in the game. When Alistair talks to you about Leliana, he asks you if you believe in her visions of the maker. One of the possible answers is "I believe that she believe they're real" (or something similar to that effect).

The point being that belief has nothing to do with evidence. People have died for beliefs with far lesser evidence for centuries in our own world. So in a nutshell; I believe that Andraste believes in the Maker. It has nothing to do with evidence or proof.

The fact that the ashes have healing properties isn't proof either. It can perhaps be considered a strong argument, but far, far from actual proof. There could be any number of reasons, including various magics, spirits and demons.

[Ahisgewaya]

Spaghetti_Ninja wrote...
The only thing they hate are their idiot followers who keep espousing their beliefs even without being asked.

I would be EXTATIC if all they did was espouse their beleif when not asked. Unfortunately they tend to accompany their espousement with thumbscrews, iron maidens and stake burnings. And the occasional genocide.

Modifié par Ahisgewaya, 27 novembre 2009 - 10:38 .

[Varenus Luckmann]

Spaghetti_Ninja wrote...

Varenus Luckmann wrote...

scrimex wrote...
She doesn't believe in the maker so how could she hate something that doesn't exist?

The same way earthly atheists hate God while espousing the belief that He doesn't exist.

No they don't, they do not believe he exists, so they do not hate him. You CAN NOT hate something that does not exist.

I've already commented on that. It is entirely possible to hate something while arguing that it doesn't exist. Like it or not, even to an atheist, God is a fictional character that you can have an emotional relation to. In the same manner someone may hate Morrigan, who also "doesn't exist", one may hate God. But with far more controversy.

Spaghetti_Ninja wrote...
The only thing they hate are their idiot followers who keep espousing their beliefs even without being asked.

Somewhat like a vast number of atheists.

Modifié par Varenus Luckmann, 27 novembre 2009 - 10:40 .

[Rugaru]

Ok Original first off,



Again just because someone believes something up to their deaths, that just means they believed it no that it was true. Before the earth was proved to be round everyone believed all the way up to dying that the earth was flat. Did their belief prove or change anything at all? No.

People die for something that isn't real all the time. How many fanatics die every day for their beliefs? Do they all believe the same thing? No. Does their belief prove ANYTHING? No.



Just because you sling around "burden of proof" doesn't mean anything. I can't study the ashes, I can't attempt to replicate them therefore no matter what anyone does they can't prove anything about them so using them to prove something else cannot be done. I was just giving a plausible example of why not to use them as proof of anything.



Replication ^^^ see above...



And for the last, its not a straw-man at all I give plausible reasons why you can't use your excuses as proof. I was simply showing that I can make silly statements as well.

[BigKevSexyMan]

Ok, let me jump in before I completely regret making this topic.

Dragon age world != Actual world



So how about we try and not argue the existence of the maker as a proxy to the existence of a god? I think we can all due without the fruitless argument. Which is hard for me to do right now, because I'm seeing SOOOOO many invalid points being made on both sides of this issue. So how about we agree to stop before this turns into another religion/anti-religion flame war. Deal??





Now, as for the existence of the MAKER, I really don't see the evidence against there being a maker. Sure, the evidence for the maker isn't exactly empirical, and there is room for doubt, but not without a viable alternative.



And the ashes aren't the only thing that supports the existence of the maker. For one, if there isn't a maker, then how is there a golden city turned black city resulting in the darkspawn?



Now, I haven't peeled through all the codexes so there may be some more evidence for, or some evidence against the Maker. As it stands, unless Morrigan knows something we don't(very possible), it would be more irrational not to believe.





Also, I'd like to say, that I would be extremely pissed if they do an expansion pack dealing Morrigan and the god-child, then turn it into some sort of (magic=science vs. religion) thing.

[Spaghetti_Ninja]

Varenus Luckmann wrote...
]I've already commented on that. It is entirely possible to hate something while arguing that it doesn't exist. Like it or not, even to an atheist, God is a fictional character that you can have an emotional relation to. In the same manner someone may hate Morrigan, who also "doesn't exist", one may hate God. But with far more controversy.

That makes about as much sense as claiming that Christians hate the Hindu Elephant God Ganesh.

Again. The object of dislike for atheists is not ''God''. Which God would that be, anyway? There isn't even one universal definition for the guy.

]Somewhat like a vast number of atheists.

...that live in your head. When I go out in the streets, do I see people shouting ''there is no God''? Nope. Only groups of morons in dresses who bug innocent pedestrians.

Of course, I live in a society where the majority of the population is atheist, so I may be slightly biased. Maybe it is different in other countries. But I doubt it.

[Spaghetti_Ninja]

BigKevSexyMan wrote...

And the ashes aren't the only thing that supports the existence of the maker. For one, if there isn't a maker, then how is there a golden city turned black city resulting in the darkspawn?

The Golden City is a thing of legend, and the Black City has only been seen from far, far away in the Fade. Nobody has ever been there aside from, reportedly, the Tevinter mages.

[Ahisgewaya]

BigKevSexyMan wrote...

For one, if there isn't a maker, then how is there a golden city turned black city resulting in the darkspawn?

Also, I'd like to say, that I would be extremely pissed if they do an expansion pack dealing Morrigan and the god-child, then turn it into some sort of (magic=science vs. religion) thing.

The elves have some very interesting stories if you read between the lines. Especially about the evil wolf god who tricked the gods into being trapped on another plane of existence. I often wondered if this is the humans' "maker".
And the black city could easily have been the elven gods' city, corrupted by the entrance of humans.

Add to this that the only proof that the black city exists is the chantry's stories and that mages see a black city in the distant fade. As to that last one I am reminded of a little girl who thought she had found a friendly talking kitty....