Morrigan has nothing but contempt for the "Myth" of the Maker and particularly the Chantry. You pick up more of it in private conversations, Leliana and Morrigan will discuss it if they're in party together and Morrigan claims contempt for an idea of an afterlife or being judged. Morrigan claims that all religions thrive on guilt "like a glutton at its lunch" also.
She's not impressed by the Urn and won't answer any of the Guardian's questions.
Does morrigan hate the maker? Or just the chantry?
Débuté par
BigKevSexyMan
, nov. 27 2009 02:52
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#77
Posté 27 novembre 2009 - 09:33
The Angry One
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Vilegrim wrote...
it's clear in Dragon Age that gods excist, Morrigan would have been better off saying she followed the old gods actually, it would have made her actions later make more sense. Anyway the point being does the Maker excist? Who knows, do the elven gods excist again who can tell? Did the old gods excist yes sure, but where they creator gods?
There is yet to be a single divine being in all of Dragon Age.
If you call the old gods "gods" rather than "big, smart dragons" then by this logic the fake Andraste is a genuine god too; it's big, it's powerful and it has worshippers. Instant god.
Also think on this, belief is power, mages have to believe they can do something before they can, it's stated in the mage origin story, now what about all those people who believe the ashes had magical healing powers, belived it for centuries? add centuries of belief, alot of it from mages, and could the nature of the ashes have been changed? Could in fact the guardian have changed them, by being a benevolent fade spirit?
No, mages must believe in their ability to control their power. And even then this is just a pep talk given by an enchanter to his student.
As for the shrine... it's a giant magical box of tricks, what do you expect? Lyrium or no, the place has more magic than the circle tower.
#78
Posté 27 novembre 2009 - 10:54
Cuuniyevo
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The thread's swerved almost completely off-topic, but I'll respond to a couple posts…
She also said that she didn't understand the danger because she was a child. The Templars weren't much of a threat to Flemeth, but they are certainly a threat to Morrigan. She doesn't begrudge them doing what they believe in, but she does see them as a dangerous hindrance. I shouldn't have used the word 'hate' but I was responding to the original poster and (s)he used that word.
She doesn't think their claims are false. She doesn't even know what their claims are and she doesn't care. I don't recall any conversation that would lead me to the conclusion that she was ever taught about the Chantry's beliefs. All she seems to know of them is that they have complete power over Circle Mages and hunt down mages that are apostate.
That is guesswork on your part, and flawed guesswork at that, because one of the most commonly agreed upon tenets of almost all religions is that the existence of the universe is in itself proof of a creator of some kind at some point in the process. Morrigan isn't a religious person, but magic's prevalence in the world has nothing to do with it. Regardless, she never (that I heard) stated any opinion about the origin of the DA universe. She doesn't know or care, as far as I can tell. From her perspective, the past is irrelevant and only serves as a distraction from the present. She almost says as much on a number of occasions, especially in reference to the truth/legends/lies surrounding Flemeth's origin.
The only two things that she does say she cares about are survival and power. She disapproves of the Circle Mages because they limit themselves(or allow themselves to be limited). Therefore, they are weak in her eyes. She dislikes the Templars not because they have power over the mages, but because they threaten her survival. As you pointed out, she doesn't begrudge them, she simply does what she does in order to surive. They are perceived to be a roadblock. Nothing more.
Agreed. In retrospect, you should probably have had a ~1000 word disclaimer at the end of your first post telling people not to project their own beliefs and just answer the question.
Rhys Cordelle says…
"In brief: She hates the Chantry because the Chantry sends Templars out to kill Apostates and she is considered an Apostate and doesn't want to be killed. She has no particular opinion on the subject of the Maker or the Chantry's idealogy."
This is totally false. She openly mocks their failed attempts at attacking herself and Flemmeth, and when you say that they got what they deserve (meaning the templars) she says that she doesn't begrudge them doing what they think is right.
She also said that she didn't understand the danger because she was a child. The Templars weren't much of a threat to Flemeth, but they are certainly a threat to Morrigan. She doesn't begrudge them doing what they believe in, but she does see them as a dangerous hindrance. I shouldn't have used the word 'hate' but I was responding to the original poster and (s)he used that word.
Her reasons for opposing the Chantry are that she thinks its claims are false and its followers are sheep.
She doesn't think their claims are false. She doesn't even know what their claims are and she doesn't care. I don't recall any conversation that would lead me to the conclusion that she was ever taught about the Chantry's beliefs. All she seems to know of them is that they have complete power over Circle Mages and hunt down mages that are apostate.
Magic, to them, is an innate part of their reality. Morrigan sees no reason to conclude that it must have been created.
That is guesswork on your part, and flawed guesswork at that, because one of the most commonly agreed upon tenets of almost all religions is that the existence of the universe is in itself proof of a creator of some kind at some point in the process. Morrigan isn't a religious person, but magic's prevalence in the world has nothing to do with it. Regardless, she never (that I heard) stated any opinion about the origin of the DA universe. She doesn't know or care, as far as I can tell. From her perspective, the past is irrelevant and only serves as a distraction from the present. She almost says as much on a number of occasions, especially in reference to the truth/legends/lies surrounding Flemeth's origin.
The only two things that she does say she cares about are survival and power. She disapproves of the Circle Mages because they limit themselves(or allow themselves to be limited). Therefore, they are weak in her eyes. She dislikes the Templars not because they have power over the mages, but because they threaten her survival. As you pointed out, she doesn't begrudge them, she simply does what she does in order to surive. They are perceived to be a roadblock. Nothing more.
BigKevSexyMan
Ok, let me jump in before I completely regret making this topic.
Dragon age world != Actual world
So how about we try and not argue the existence of the maker as a proxy to the existence of a god? I think we can all due without the fruitless argument. Which is hard for me to do right now, because I'm seeing SOOOOO many invalid points being made on both sides of this issue. So how about we agree to stop before this turns into another religion/anti-religion flame war. Deal??
Agreed. In retrospect, you should probably have had a ~1000 word disclaimer at the end of your first post telling people not to project their own beliefs and just answer the question.
#79
Posté 28 novembre 2009 - 12:07
Alneverus
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Ari and Rhys, thank you for your statements. It's always nice to know that something is read and, at least, appreciated for the value of a creative theory.
As for BigKevSexyMan, despite the topic going well off the initial question I do appreciate the good conversations it has sparked. Aside from various misconceptions that others have provided in regards to real world religious ideals (or lack thereof) it has allowed others to look at various concepts from an in-game look and to express their own thoughts. While not your intention my hats off to you for being a catalyst for some good portions of conversation.
As for BigKevSexyMan, despite the topic going well off the initial question I do appreciate the good conversations it has sparked. Aside from various misconceptions that others have provided in regards to real world religious ideals (or lack thereof) it has allowed others to look at various concepts from an in-game look and to express their own thoughts. While not your intention my hats off to you for being a catalyst for some good portions of conversation.
#80
Posté 28 novembre 2009 - 12:46
Vilegrim
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The Angry One wrote...
Vilegrim wrote...
it's clear in Dragon Age that gods excist, Morrigan would have been better off saying she followed the old gods actually, it would have made her actions later make more sense. Anyway the point being does the Maker excist? Who knows, do the elven gods excist again who can tell? Did the old gods excist yes sure, but where they creator gods?
1)There is yet to be a single divine being in all of Dragon Age.
If you call the old gods "gods" rather than "big, smart dragons" then by this logic the fake Andraste is a genuine god too; it's big, it's powerful and it has worshippers. Instant god.Also think on this, belief is power, mages have to believe they can do something before they can, it's stated in the mage origin story, now what about all those people who believe the ashes had magical healing powers, belived it for centuries? add centuries of belief, alot of it from mages, and could the nature of the ashes have been changed? Could in fact the guardian have changed them, by being a benevolent fade spirit?
2)No, mages must believe in their ability to control their power. And even then this is just a pep talk given by an enchanter to his student.
As for the shrine... it's a giant magical box of tricks, what do you expect? Lyrium or no, the place has more magic than the circle tower.
1) define divine, in fact look at the greek, roman or egyptian gods toss in a bit of saxon or viking for flavouring if you will, and the Old Gods fit all those criteria of divine, they do not fit a monotheistic view, but that doesn't mean they aren't gods (immortal, powerful, and capricous covers most pre monotheistic gods tbh)
2) and this is where we could get metaphysical, control = power, get a 600bhp engine and lay it through a bicycle wheel, what do you get except a mess? Now are mages told they need belief for control because it builds confidence or because it is true? Listen to the conversations you hear randomly in the mage origin, a teacher telling his students, you must belive you can create fire, have faith in your abilities, or it will fail.... now is that belief in ones self or belief in magic? I venture they are the same thing.
#81
Posté 28 novembre 2009 - 12:52
Arijharn
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The only reason people believe there used to be a Golden City was because the Chantry faith tells them so, this doesn't actually mean anything really, this doesn't prove beyond reasonable doubt that the Maker exists.
You can have faith that he does and that's alright, but that doesn't prove it, they aren't mutually inclusive.
You can have faith that he does and that's alright, but that doesn't prove it, they aren't mutually inclusive.
