209 réponses à ce sujet

[realpokerjedi]

You people are amazing, such a wonderful concepts and I hope to the spirits you are right!
However I just can't get past the idea Bioware would take a risk and ship a game with indoctrinated ending.
It would have made more business sense and creative sense to give them that ending originally and add DLC later.
I honestly think, each of you are just extremely more talented than Mike Gamble and Mac Walters.
They would never be creative enough to pull this kind of thing off.
Regardless hope I am wrong, and thank you for giving me hope.

Modifié par realpokerjedi, 11 mars 2012 - 11:03 .

[Gowienczyk]

This can be the only theory, to be honest.

[Sharrack]

Illusions usually let the mind do the work for them and let it decieve itself. This would explain why the confrontation with TIM plays out very similar as the one with Saren as shepard thinks both had initially good intentions but got indoctrinated (if the dream starts before entering the citadel).
Andersons death then perhaps is a symbol for S. believing for them to be to late.

Shepard own mind doing the main work also gives us an explanation on why the War Assets influence the endings. I think it would go like this:
The more readiness you have the higher Shepards determination and willpower are and changes the outcome Shepards deems possible.
On the different kinds of endings i think it's true that destruction frees him and control enslaves him but sythesis needs a much to high amount of war assets to be a bad outcome for him. It seems more like a back door his mind wants to show him, another way he could go to defeat the reapers.
reason why he isn't shown alive afterwards: it would give away that it's not real too easily.
And he dies in all of the possibilities because he himself doubts that he will survive this.

Read about this theory of yours yesterday and afterwards i remembered some things:
- In an interview i stumbled upon it was hinted at by bioware staff that the playtime is about 50% more then ME 2 now that would get me to about 60h but ME3 capped out at around 30h.
- There was a lot of talk about wrong leads and us hunting for differen solutions when there is only one
So perhaps we not only didn't see the real ending but we still get half of the game at a later time and this waiting is a part of the experience. Except while on PC that wouldn't be much of a problem with Origin being needed to actually play the game (perhaps also a reason it's mandatory),
how would they do it on the 360? On the PS3 it could already be on disc, the space is there and there either is a timestamp which unlocks the content or you need a patch to do so...

Edit: Oh and don't know it's already said but after you return from enterring the Geth server EDI says something along the lines of "how do you know you are in reality now?". If this theory is true it would make this statement one hell of a foreshadowing.

Modifié par Sharrack, 11 mars 2012 - 12:24 .

[Zourin]

The fact that the ending requires so much speculative theory and 'head-canon' means the writers failed to bring a satisfying conclusion to the end of their story.

Other games could get away with it because the endings made sense along the lines of the game world and plot path, but the Godchild scenario comes out of the blue at the very end and bears zero relevance to whether you've been a total jerk or a galactic peacemaker for 1-3 games, even offering three poorly palatable options and a final sequence that offers no solid debriefing on the total consequences of your choices.

Even if Shepard was indoctrinated, it never became a critical plot point brought to the viewers attention (which can be done away from Shepards attention in any number of ways)

Modifié par Zourin, 11 mars 2012 - 08:24 .

[MaxwellIan]

I don't know if this got posted here or not yet, I found it on one of the other boards complaining about the ending. This is all in game, I went back and found it. Best proof IMHO.


-During
the TIM talk at the control panel you hear reapers roaring here and
there and specifically when TIM FORCES your body or will to do
something i.e. shoot Anderson.. Harbinger is using TIM as a avatar in
the indoctrinated dream. using his roars to subvert you. -- explains
the multiple voices as well.

- If you notice while walking up the
ramp to get to the control panel on the left side it says 1M1..on the
right it says 1M1 but its backwards- the 1's are completely mirrored and
backwards. Logic: in this dream: whats RIGHT is skewed, its wrong,
its not REAL. I.e. The right thing in your mind to do is represented
as "WRONG" in this ending (dream) --- You get a renegade option (RED) to
shoot TIM to save anderson?? really? im sorry thats paragon.. but see..
its indoctrination-- its making you think its WRONG to shoot TIM to
save anderson.
-At the end the (control reapers) area is blue lit
(correct me if im wrong) the middle is white light.. walking towards
the light.. metaphorical your accepting fate--accepting the idea that
Organics will become 1 with synthetics (isnt that what reapers are doing
anyways?) -- the RIGHT side is painted red (renegade) Destroy
synthetics... but its the RIGHT thing to do.. Mass effect 1 through 3
is all about DESTROYING the reapers... harbinger wants you to think
its a wrong thing to do...

the "secret" ending: you wake up in a
pile of concrete (its been said before) -- citadel obviously wasn't
concrete -- you fought and broke your will against harbinger/reapers
as in your dream you pick yourself up your standing two hands on your
gun not even acting injured as you destroy the one thing that will bring
about the downfall to the reapers (opposite of what they want.. so you
broke their WILL against you)

[fishmoose345]

 I honestly think that there is still much more to come from Mass Effect 3. As it stands now, regardless of whatever decision you make, the relays are destroyed (As far as we know). However this presents a problem for Bioware. There essentially is no "Mass Effect" once the relays/Citadel is destroyed, yet they've said there will be more games in the Mass Effect universe after the trilogy is over. So, unless they are planning on making only one game about the First Contact War and then calling it quits, despite rumors of a Mass Effect MMO, then I think we may have a different ending in store, or at least more clarification as to what exactly happens with each decision via an epilogue.

[NiNjaWaffLesx]

I hope your right because the endings presented are horrible otherwise.
I knew it won't be a happy ending but hopfully one that makes sense.

[Elendstourist]

MaxwellIan wrote...

I don't know if this got posted here or not yet, I found it on one of the other boards complaining about the ending. This is all in game, I went back and found it. Best proof IMHO.


-During
the TIM talk at the control panel you hear reapers roaring here and
there and specifically when TIM FORCES your body or will to do
something i.e. shoot Anderson.. Harbinger is using TIM as a avatar in
the indoctrinated dream. using his roars to subvert you. -- explains
the multiple voices as well.

- If you notice while walking up the
ramp to get to the control panel on the left side it says 1M1..on the
right it says 1M1 but its backwards- the 1's are completely mirrored and
backwards. Logic: in this dream: whats RIGHT is skewed, its wrong,
its not REAL. I.e. The right thing in your mind to do is represented
as "WRONG" in this ending (dream) --- You get a renegade option (RED) to
shoot TIM to save anderson?? really? im sorry thats paragon.. but see..
its indoctrination-- its making you think its WRONG to shoot TIM to
save anderson.
-At the end the (control reapers) area is blue lit
(correct me if im wrong) the middle is white light.. walking towards
the light.. metaphorical your accepting fate--accepting the idea that
Organics will become 1 with synthetics (isnt that what reapers are doing
anyways?) -- the RIGHT side is painted red (renegade) Destroy
synthetics... but its the RIGHT thing to do.. Mass effect 1 through 3
is all about DESTROYING the reapers... harbinger wants you to think
its a wrong thing to do...

the "secret" ending: you wake up in a
pile of concrete (its been said before) -- citadel obviously wasn't
concrete -- you fought and broke your will against harbinger/reapers
as in your dream you pick yourself up your standing two hands on your
gun not even acting injured as you destroy the one thing that will bring
about the downfall to the reapers (opposite of what they want.. so you
broke their WILL against you)

These facts combined with the other posts in this thread have given me new hope that all I did in the first two ME games was not all for nothing. It makes all sense. Shepard wakes up if he destroys the Reapers. He is lying in concrete - > still London. In his mind he broke the control of the reapers. That would be awesome. All these little hints, with the reaper noises and the mirrored 1M1...

I expect some BioWare guy to confirm these theories, wearing a giant trollface mask.

[Karune69]

I find this idea the only one that makes sense but also look at the fact that there are so many unanswered questions like what happened to the normandy, what planet are they landed on, what happened to Shepard's love interest and him. If they do bring out a dlc package i beg bioare to give us closure on Love interst, wat happens between shepard and his LI? Will they get married and start a family? What about earth and the other races? What happned to the population of the citadel and of course, HOW DID THE CATALYST COME INTO EXISTENCE AND MORE BACK STORY ON THE REAPERS AND CATALYST AND MASS REALYS/CITADEL!

Hopefully we do get closure on this

[Podge 90]

I'm one of the ones who is making a first visit to this forum, guys, just to read up on these endings because I was genuinely feeling emotionally empty.  And after such a perfect, and I mean perfect journey, for it to come down to what we were presented with would be a travesty.

And I have to say, this thread and pretty much everyone posting in it has put an almost mischievious smirk on my face.  I'm currently thinking "......what if..........what if Bioware has just pulled the biggest trick in gaming history".

Like some have said, this may be purely delving into desperation and hope that this great franchise - not to mention MY Shepard - has ended like this.  But, as others have said, if the pieces fit........  This is actually a conspiracy theory that has weight!!

This has given me the motivation to play again, to pick out the things that support this theory.

So here's my personal (albeit minor) input in this:
Throughout my many many many playthroughs of ME1 and ME2, indoctrination has been a prevalent theme.  It's affected the powerless and the powerful, but something has combined all those people; their (lack of) strength of mind.  If people had just held strong, the Reapers would not possess a foothold of the level they did/do/had/have in the Mass Effect world.  But what if that wasn't enough?  What if a strong mind isn't enough?  What if someone who possesed the sheer determination and strength of Shepard wasn't enough?  The Reapers are supposed to be almost God-like.  A mere hoomin being should not be completely unaffected by their power/indoctrination after all the exposure that Shepard has experienced.   Afterall if Shepard, the galaxy's messiah, can be indoctrinated, then surely anyone can?

This would carry two points: 1) The portrayal of the Reapers as a truly all-dominating force capable of capturing anyones mind, and 2) Shepard truly is a hero in being capable of snapping out of such a deep indoctrination, fighting back against what seems completely helpless, and doing what he set out to do all those years ago; save the galaxy.

I really, really, REALLY hope Bioware has been astronomically brave (and deviously clever) in this.  I hope so badly that this theory is on to something.

[MattFini]

This is an awesome theory and it fits like a ****ing glove.

I love it, and wouldn't even be mad at the possibility of a hearty expansion back that goes full-tilt toward resolving this, and giving us closure/epilogue.

Sure, it's terrible if they planned it this way (no real ending), but I could live with it being a Reaper trick if it leads to something good.

It would also be hilarious to watch those who claim to be 100% satisfied with the ending start backpedaling.

So, um, yeah, hopefully, this happens.

[DarknesShade]

My Hope On Mass Effect series is back!(well... never lose it anyway....)

proceeding to play Mass Effect 3 Again With Joy!
And hey... Knowing EA there will have a DLC....
I just Know!


(O__O)



(Think about it... sheppard waking up in bed with their LI in the normandy before the final battle....maybe the hallucination started there...Because... NO FINAL BOSS REALY???...and it's true... many people are saying harbinger burns your armor and helmet and goes away???He was obsessed with sheppard in Mass Effect 2! And No Armor/helmet in space??? Wtf...)


".SORRY.FOR.MY.BAD.ENGLISH."
(O-O)

[slimshedim]

Well, I destroyed the Reapers, but I didn't get the cutscene where Shepard woke up in the pile of rubble. What did I do wrong?

[DoctrSuSE]

 Ok, so I am going to start reading this huge thread now... but there is definitely either a bug or it didn't happen as we were led to believe:

Ashley "died" along side me during the rush toward the beam.  Yet somehow she walked off the Normandy with Joker and EDI.  Even if she had lived, she wasn't on the Normandy.  So yeah... bug or hallucination/indoctrination.

[laststarfighter]

The indoctrination theory is so easily disproved imho. The indoctrination theory is ok I guess. It makes less since because Shepard was rebuilt in ME2. People know they are indoctrinated, Saren knew in the end, and same with Liara's mother. You're crew were as close to the reapers as you were, Tali and garrius were with you the whole time so they should be indoctrinated as well. If Bioware was going with the indoctrination thing, it would have made more since for the illusive man to start the process when Shepard was rebuilt.

[PaladinMesser]

Regono wrote...

Wait what if we are indoctrinated. Just like how at the end of Inception the film performed Inception on us to make us believe in the idea of it. We are so blinded by the ending because we are indoctrinated and in a few days they will release a code for unlocked dlc that is already on the disk for the true ending like some crazy marketing stunt.

I saw this ending as weird and I'm hoping it's indoctrination, thats what I was thinking with the weird darkness stuff in the borders of the UI when you're with TIM. But it better be a free DLC becasue we should not have to pay for the real ending after paying for the game. I could see this as a radical new form of anti-piracy/anti-used game resale by giving you a unique code for a free unlock or DLC with the the true endings with new copes of the game. One for every product code the way some consoles do with multipalyer to try and deter the resale of cosole games. But it seems pretty tough logisticly to get the the codes or DLC to every one. Like people who havent registered their game or dont have an internet connection. They would be SOL and got an incomplete game.

Now if we have to pay for a "real ending" DLC that would be pure greed, immoral, and unethical. I'd be so pissed and I wouldn't buy it.

[Shacky182]

I'm 100% behind this theory and I would much rather pay for a dlc conclusion than not to have one at all.

Id they build on this idea in a dlc it would make for a brilliant ending to what otherwise was a fairly brilliant game within an incredible series ... go for it Bioware.

[Walrusninja]

I hope so. I'd be fine (ecstatic in fact) if they revealed DLC in a few days that revealed that actually no, it ain't over. Shephard wakes up in the dirt, you grab your team, fight Harbinger and more bad doods, get through the portal and then we see the ACTUAL ending.

That'd be an incredible publicity stunt, a fantastic turn of the tables and get them enormous respect. They would've successfully fooled the entire gaming community. They would've used actual real world time as a part of the story and incorporated a game release into the story so to speak. That's more like the Bioware I know, ingenious. Hope this is right.

Hopefully that ending was Harbinger trying to indoctrinate Shephard

Modifié par Walrusninja, 13 mars 2012 - 08:20 .

[kazar86]

Hi! I'm an italian me fan and I'm sorry for my bad english -.-
THANK YOU TO BRING ME THIS HOPE! I haven't finish the game yet because I red a news on the web abount the horribe ending and I was really afraid to se that! I'm really involved in this saga and I really hope for this indoctination theory.
I think also that it is really strange that no one of ma3 staff have done any answer to the question and instead with the day one DLC they repliend so early... Maybe they are waiting the game launch in all the world and than with a patch they unlock the true ending... I wanna belive this!!!

[Walrusninja]

Frankly, it adds up. The "Perfect Ending " has Shephard waking up in a pile of rubble, burnt and bashed up. No matter what, that stands.

[FallinaX]

I would like to thank you for restoring my hope in this series. When I finished the game and got three cop out ending choices (none of which took into account the decisions I've made throughout the series) I was left feeling cheated and without hope. To the point that when I went to decide who to play through next, I couldn't do it. I sat there, staring at the four other Sheps that I'd spent countless hours weighing their decisions and I couldn't bring myself to start a new game with any of them. The reason:  None of those decisions that I'd made amounted to anything in the end. Who cares if I had saved the Rachni Queen on this playthrough and destroyed her on this one. In the end, I'm offered the exact same endings as any other playthrough. That is the part that infuriated me about the ending. "Your choices have consequences" was one of the major selling points of the Mass Effect series, and when you get to the end, you find out that, no, they really didn't. I destroyed Maelon's Genophage cure, and it came back to bite me when Wrex held it against me over and over again. I had to work that much harder to regain his trust, and I thought it was awesome! But to realize that I could screw over the entire galaxy and still have enough military strength was a let down. Where is the overall end product of my hundred hours of time spent preparing for this single moment?

Again, thank you for restoring my faith in the series. And as a final point, do you think that this "Indoctrination" idea could have some tie in with the old man and child at the end: "Tell me another story."    "Alright, one more story." A perfect way to lead into the 'actual' ending.

[Sc2mashimaro]

I will honestly cry for joy if you are right AND write Bioware a long thank you/apology letter because, especially if they planned this all ahead of time, it would be the most brilliant thing to ever happen in video game story telling. (SHUT UP AND TAKE MY MONEY!)

That said, if this theory is right, it creates some other uncomfortable situations about how the story might get darker before it gets lighter. Shepard is not the only one to have been spending time around a lot of Reaper tech. A lot of his crew, especially Liara, Tali, and Garrus, have also been around lots of Reapers and Reaper tech. Is anyone on the Normandy secretly indoctrinated? There was a TON of foreshadowing that never seemed to come to fruition that allies may be turned against you by the Reapers, and not just the side-show ones. Also, there was a lot of talk about leaders being indoctrinated against their people... Udina might be the only example, but it's hard to tell if he was indoctrinated or just greedy. It's the ones close to Shepard I worry about and the other council members... food for thought, assuming this theory holds water.

Also, if the end is a DLC for us to finish the fight, I hope it's more than a couple hours long. I want an end game that feels like the Collector Base but on a whole new scale.

[Leafs43]

Sc2mashimaro wrote...

I will honestly cry for joy if you are right AND write Bioware a long thank you/apology letter because, especially if they planned this all ahead of time, it would be the most brilliant thing to ever happen in video game story telling. (SHUT UP AND TAKE MY MONEY!)

That said, if this theory is right, it creates some other uncomfortable situations about how the story might get darker before it gets lighter. Shepard is not the only one to have been spending time around a lot of Reaper tech. A lot of his crew, especially Liara, Tali, and Garrus, have also been around lots of Reapers and Reaper tech. Is anyone on the Normandy secretly indoctrinated? There was a TON of foreshadowing that never seemed to come to fruition that allies may be turned against you by the Reapers, and not just the side-show ones. Also, there was a lot of talk about leaders being indoctrinated against their people... Udina might be the only example, but it's hard to tell if he was indoctrinated or just greedy. It's the ones close to Shepard I worry about and the other council members... food for thought, assuming this theory holds water.

Also, if the end is a DLC for us to finish the fight, I hope it's more than a couple hours long. I want an end game that feels like the Collector Base but on a whole new scale.

It's all but officially confirmed as indoctrination.

It's the only way anything makes sense.

Not only do you survive the destroy option, when you are explicitly told you won't, the other two options you actually do not defeat the reapers.  They just fly off into space.

[Ukmaxi]

I don't know if anyone did notice on twitter, but @Gamblemike who has been the producer on the mass effect series stated and I quote "Hardest. Day. Ever. Seriously, if you people knew all the stuff we are planning...you'd, we'll - hold onto your copy of me3 forever."

The theory is very promising, and it could be that the writers did put little clues in there throughout the game. Time will tell if we are just overthinking this or are actually right. But it just all fits too well.

[Sc2mashimaro]

Leafs43 wrote...

Sc2mashimaro wrote...

I will honestly cry for joy if you are right AND write Bioware a long thank you/apology letter because, especially if they planned this all ahead of time, it would be the most brilliant thing to ever happen in video game story telling. (SHUT UP AND TAKE MY MONEY!)

That said, if this theory is right, it creates some other uncomfortable situations about how the story might get darker before it gets lighter. Shepard is not the only one to have been spending time around a lot of Reaper tech. A lot of his crew, especially Liara, Tali, and Garrus, have also been around lots of Reapers and Reaper tech. Is anyone on the Normandy secretly indoctrinated? There was a TON of foreshadowing that never seemed to come to fruition that allies may be turned against you by the Reapers, and not just the side-show ones. Also, there was a lot of talk about leaders being indoctrinated against their people... Udina might be the only example, but it's hard to tell if he was indoctrinated or just greedy. It's the ones close to Shepard I worry about and the other council members... food for thought, assuming this theory holds water.

Also, if the end is a DLC for us to finish the fight, I hope it's more than a couple hours long. I want an end game that feels like the Collector Base but on a whole new scale.

It's all but officially confirmed as indoctrination.

It's the only way anything makes sense.

Not only do you survive the destroy option, when you are explicitly told you won't, the other two options you actually do not defeat the reapers.  They just fly off into space.

I've been more than convinced that the end scene was indoctrination. I actually suspected as much when I was playing through the game and chose to destroy the Reapers (why exactly would I listen to a weird ghost kid that admits he's with the Reapers themselves?), but then I was rudely shocked by the end cut-scene sequence (I was just under 4k so my Shep didn't "wake up" at the end, but still).

What I'm still waiting to hear is that we're going to get that satisfying, crunchy conclusion we've all been waiting for after all this heartbreak and merry-go-rounding with the ending that we did get OR that the ending we got was the ending they meant for the series, and other DLC will simply cover other things. It's still possible that nothing new is coming even if indoctrination theory is correct. And I am a believer now. And it does give me hope for content that is on its way to make sure this is the greatest game of all time. (PLEASE BIOWARE! PLEASE! )