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[Tasmen]

ejoslin wrote...

  Doesn't he say even in the male romance that he thinks he prefers women?

Yep, he most certainly does.

[Addai]

For those unsure about the Zevran romance: I'll admit, and probably will offend someone I suppose, but I had to do a mental adjustment to see Zevran as a "real man" and one with whom I could enjoy a character having a romance. IRL I do like a man's man and all that, so it took some mental preparation to be able to get into his character and take him as he is. I'm glad I did, because playing it has been most rewarding.

[Topaz Bee]

ejoslin wrote...

Anyway, I'm not sure it's a homophobia
thing; I think it's more Zevran being unsure.  Doesn't he say even in
the male romance that he thinks he prefers women?  I would imagine two
guys in that situation (being neither a guy nor gay I could be WAY off
here) who are unsure of their own sexuality, uncertain whether the
attraction felt is returned, and definitely nervous about the other's
feelings would be walking on eggshells.  I'm not sure I could
appreciate the male/male romance, but I may try it just to see the
differences.  I'm still all *squee* over the Zevran romance with my
various PCs.  There are a lot of subtle nuances there that are not
there in the Alistair romance.  Race, for instance, actually makes for
a bit of difference in approval (and tent scenes) with the Zevran
romance whereas with Alistair, aside from a couple of minor dialog
options, it makes no difference at all.  Well, until it comes time to
see if he'll marry the PC or not, of course.  Then race makes a huge
difference. That may fall under Alistair not considering the future
until after he finally wins and beds the PC, though.

Oh, of course I don't think it's a prejudice on Zevran's end. I actually figured in some cases his checks were a purely writing thing(since I remember this one point where he gave one of these 'are you sure?' checks twice, which made it feel repetitive. I don't remember where this was, though). I for one did like how he had a preference toward females, it made him feel more like a real person and not some simulation meant to bend either way depending on what the PC was. It did take patience, but I liked how it paid off.

I'm also just glad he did not have a perpetual case of cold feet like Alistair.

I found the M/M romance with Zevran deeper than the M/F one, but at the time I put that down to the fact that the first time I went all the way through his romance was with a male PC.  I figured that my female PC's romance with Zevran was kind of underwhelming just because I'd already been there, done that with a previous PC.  Now I'm not so sure, but I still can't quite put my finger on why, especially since Zevran himself will say that, given the choice, he prefers women.

I'm no wiser than you as to why. I do know it makes his 'control rod' discussion with Shale that much more hysterical, though.

Modifié par Topaz Bee, 12 janvier 2010 - 08:24 .

[ejoslin]

There are a few romances that get turned on a bit easily -- Leliana comes to mind, Morrigan as well I've heard. Alistair, since I know how to avoid turning it on I can do so, but it's not so obvious (I learned this becauase I wanted him to marry a Cousland he never fell in love with to see different dialog options).

The Zevran romance finishes way after you're at 100 actually -- he doesn't fall in love until after the landsmeet is called, and it's easy to miss the final dialog with him where he declares his feelings.  And it's far easier to miss that full dialog even if you get it since you have to take a small rejection before then to get Zev to fully realize what he wants which may cause some to reload.  And you still make certain dialog choices.

I think Zevran's speech at the city gates has the potential to be the best one of them either as his friend or his lover (if you select the right options, of course) -- followed by Sten's and then Oghren's. Wow, that game sets you up there.

Modifié par ejoslin, 12 janvier 2010 - 08:34 .

[ejoslin]

Topaz Bee wrote...



Oh, of course I don't think it's a prejudice on Zevran's end. I actually figured in some cases his checks were a purely writing thing(since I remember this one point where he gave one of these 'are you sure?' checks twice, which made it feel repetitive. I don't remember where this was, though). I for one did like how he had a preference toward females, it made him feel more like a real person and not some simulation meant to bend either way depending on what the PC was. It did take patience, but I liked how it paid off.

I'm also just glad he did not have a perpetual case of cold feet like Alistair. 

Ah, I don't think it's the writing either.  It's too easy for a female character to accidentally fall into a romance with Leliana.  Then again, female bisexuality is addressed in a very matter-of-fact way in this game, so maybe a lesbian PC is less of a taboo?  

And don't worry about Ali.  You know he wouldn't be faithful to you anyway!  Has to make that heir and all 

[JosieJ]

Topaz Bee wrote...

I found the M/M romance with Zevran deeper than the M/F one, but at the time I put that down to the fact that the first time I went all the way through his romance was with a male PC.  I figured that my female PC's romance with Zevran was kind of underwhelming just because I'd already been there, done that with a previous PC.  Now I'm not so sure, but I still can't quite put my finger on why, especially since Zevran himself will say that, given the choice, he prefers women.

I'm no wiser than you as to why. I do know it makes his 'control rod' discussion with Shale that much more hysterical, though.

Heh--true!

ejoslin wrote...

I think Zevran's speech at the city gates has the potential to be the best one of them either as his friend or his lover (if you select the right options, of course) -- followed by Sten's and then Oghren's. Wow, that game sets you up there.

OK, as much as I love Zevran (and Sten!), I have to give the edge to Oghren's speech, here: it's incredibly badass!

[ejoslin]

JosieJ wrote...

Topaz Bee wrote...

I found the M/M romance with Zevran deeper than the M/F one, but at the time I put that down to the fact that the first time I went all the way through his romance was with a male PC.  I figured that my female PC's romance with Zevran was kind of underwhelming just because I'd already been there, done that with a previous PC.  Now I'm not so sure, but I still can't quite put my finger on why, especially since Zevran himself will say that, given the choice, he prefers women.

I'm no wiser than you as to why. I do know it makes his 'control rod' discussion with Shale that much more hysterical, though.

Heh--true!

ejoslin wrote...

I think Zevran's speech at the city gates has the potential to be the best one of them either as his friend or his lover (if you select the right options, of course) -- followed by Sten's and then Oghren's. Wow, that game sets you up there.

OK, as much as I love Zevran (and Sten!), I have to give the edge to Oghren's speech, here: it's incredibly badass!

Maybe it's just my Zevran squee, but to me, even though I know he says it to you if you're at 100 friendly as well, is the MOST romantic thing said in the game.  And I don't doubt it at all!  But yes, when Oghren says he'll be the warrior the pc taught him to be . . . wowza.  Just . . . But I like Oghren a lot.  

[Topaz Bee]

ejoslin wrote...

Ah, I don't think it's the writing either.  It's too easy for a female character to accidentally fall into a romance with Leliana.  Then again, female bisexuality is addressed in a very matter-of-fact way in this game, so maybe a lesbian PC is less of a taboo? 

I actually tried to romance Leliana on my first playthrough, and I couldn't seem to unlock it. I tried, I really did. I must have missed something somewhere. Could it have been due to starting too late?

That said, I don't fault Zev for being a little cautious. I'm probably not explaining myself too well... I just sighed when I told him I didn't mind him fancying my PC, and then later(or before?) he was talking about his past and asked if I would be bothered hearing that he'd had flings with men. I could be remembering the dialog wrong, I just remember feeling it was a little inconsistant. Anyway, not a big deal by any stretch.

And don't worry about Ali.  You know he wouldn't be faithful to you anyway!  Has to make that heir and all 

Don't remind me. After all I did for the guy...

I think Zevran's speech at the city gates has the potential to be the
best one of them either as his friend or his lover (if you select the
right options, of course) -- followed by Sten's and then Oghren's. Wow,
that game sets you up there.

Oghren's dialogue made me tear up. Zevran's 'storming the black city' quote pushed me over the edge.

[Addai]

Topaz Bee wrote...
That said, I don't fault Zev for being a little cautious. I'm probably not explaining myself too well... I just sighed when I told him I didn't mind him fancying my PC, and then later(or before?) he was talking about his past and asked if I would be bothered hearing that he'd had flings with men. I could be remembering the dialog wrong, I just remember feeling it was a little inconsistant. Anyway, not a big deal by any stretch.

Seeing as how he says these things for a female PC, too, I interpret his first question to include the fact that he just tried to kill you and now he's telling you he fancies you.  That line could very well be met with "I'm sure that what you fancy is getting near enough to me to finish the job."  It's certainly what the team chatter suggests everyone else is thinking.

And later on, he is not only talking about the fact that he slept with men as well as women, but with a lot of people.  That's how the dialogue opens up, after all:  "So I imagine you have been with many women...  <Zevran says something ambiguous>... That many, eh?... etc."

I do find it curious that Zevran, to my knowledge, never hits on Alistair.  I gather that he picks up right away that it wouldn't go over well, but that doesn't stop him from tormenting Wynne and Morrigan!

[ejoslin]

Topaz Bee wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Ah, I don't think it's the writing either.  It's too easy for a female character to accidentally fall into a romance with Leliana.  Then again, female bisexuality is addressed in a very matter-of-fact way in this game, so maybe a lesbian PC is less of a taboo? 

I actually tried to romance Leliana on my first playthrough, and I couldn't seem to unlock it. I tried, I really did. I must have missed something somewhere. Could it have been due to starting too late?

That said, I don't fault Zev for being a little cautious. I'm probably not explaining myself too well... I just sighed when I told him I didn't mind him fancying my PC, and then later(or before?) he was talking about his past and asked if I would be bothered hearing that he'd had flings with men. I could be remembering the dialog wrong, I just remember feeling it was a little inconsistant. Anyway, not a big deal by any stretch.

And don't worry about Ali.  You know he wouldn't be faithful to you anyway!  Has to make that heir and all 

Don't remind me. After all I did for the guy...

I think Zevran's speech at the city gates has the potential to be the
best one of them either as his friend or his lover (if you select the
right options, of course) -- followed by Sten's and then Oghren's. Wow,
that game sets you up there.

Oghren's dialogue made me tear up. Zevran's 'storming the black city' quote pushed me over the edge.

Women get those same dialogs, though.  Maybe it just comes across as different?  The way I look at it, he always asks the PC's permission, male or female, before moving on.  He is basically there, at least at first, because he has to be.  The crows will kill him if he leaves, and he knows it, and so while he wants to pursue the PC, he does not want to get told to leave (try telling him to go and you'll see what I mean).  So every step he takes, with a male or female, he asks if it's ok, if he'll offend him or her -- with a male, he's even putting more on the line as well.

My first play through, I did the Zevran romance very late in the game (yes, dumped by Ali), and never had him in my party.  His "storm the gates" speech earned him my very first reload EVER, and in subsequent play throughs he's a permanent member of my party and much to my surprise, I learned that he has something useful to contribute in every zone and most certainly is the only companion who is not, at least a bit, subservient to the PC.

Edit: My apologies.  I am not trying to turn this into another Zevran love thread . . .

Modifié par ejoslin, 12 janvier 2010 - 09:11 .

[Thiefy]

well to get back on track instead of this being an ali vs. zev thread.....



i think they were done well, given the environment. cant really see romantic dinners being an option with the blight/civil war/all the other quests going on but a romantic scene outside of camp or party chat would have been nice. or something before final battle (minus certain spoilers)

[frostajulie]

It would have been nice if after a scary battle, in particular the fade at the tower, if your romantic option was in your party and you finish that they wouldgrab you or you them for a big relief kiss scene. On my first playthrough my elf mage was romantic with Alistair and I lost him in the fade. Since I had never played the game before I was all panicky that I had lost him for good or was about to lose him. After waking up from killing Sloth I envisioned that scene from Willow where Sorcha kisses Mad Mardigan during the battle and I felt that was something my PC would do to AL, but the kiss was just the same leisurely affair and not the frantic relief at finding him alive that I wanted. Little bits like that peppered throughout the game might add depth to the romance.

[le_cygne]

I agree that the Zevran romance is excellent. Even breaking off a respectful, flirtatious relationship with Zev clearly hurts him, and the way his tone changes with the PC is a sad reminder of how much happier he seemed behind his"staring at you luridly" facade earlier. The fact that he's so understanding and conscientious in general just makes hurting the poor guy all the worse.

I thought the Leliana romance was very well done, too. Little touches like the "keeping watch" discussion and especially some of the comparisons the PC can draw between herself and Marjolaine were compelling to me. Hell, my character was willing to essentially abandon the Wardens and make an--ahem--"questionable" deal with Morrigan to live up to her promise of travelling with Leliana once the Blight was over.

Leliana and Zev really come off as behaving realistically to me, with their appropriate dramatic flourishes.

Alistair's a well-written character with some amusing dialogue, but I don't personally see the appeal there. He's a nice guy and all, but ... ah well, at least he's a convenient in to the throne for a noble looking to restore her house to prominence.

(As much as I love the character myself, I haven't played any PCs for whom the Morrigan romance made sense to try yet. The devout, lawful Circle Mage wasn't so into the creepy witch-thief apostate who insisted on coming along with him.)

Modifié par le_cygne, 12 janvier 2010 - 09:34 .

[Topaz Bee]

ejoslin wrote...

Women get those same dialogs, though.  Maybe it just comes across as different?  The way I look at it, he always asks the PC's permission, male or female, before moving on. 

Did he? Well, damn. That shows how much I was paying attention. I haven't played a female PC since my first(with one exception, but she hasn't gotten passed Lothering yet), so I honestly didn't recall that dialog. Well, pretend my big trap never said anything on that subject, then. XD

[ejoslin]

Topaz Bee wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Women get those same dialogs, though.  Maybe it just comes across as different?  The way I look at it, he always asks the PC's permission, male or female, before moving on. 

Did he? Well, damn. That shows how much I was paying attention. I haven't played a female PC since my first(with one exception, but she hasn't gotten passed Lothering yet), so I honestly didn't recall that dialog. Well, pretend my big trap never said anything on that subject, then. XD

Well, his telling a female and a male pc that he has been with men would come across as VERY different, even if the dialogs are exactly the same.  Because with a female pc, that is the first time he said straight out that he has had men as lovers, while if he's flirting with a male, you may assume that to begin with.  But it also is more a confession that he used sex as a way of getting close to his targets, which is a heck of an admission to someone you're hired to kill and someone you're trying to seduce.  

[Topaz Bee]

Well, with that cleared up, it does make sense. For all his dirty jokes and innuendos and 'easy lover achievement' he never seemed like the type to jump into bed willy-nilly with everybody he met(as many players tend to think). Like you said, it was a tool to him, to whatever end(usually death). Which, of course, is part of the reason for his 'turn around' later in the romance plot.



But enough of that, I'll go swallow a sock for now, and stop leading this thread off-topic. I find it hard to bite my tongue after a while, when people go dismiss Zev before giving him a chance. It's a waste of a wonderfully written character.

[GrimReaperCalls]

When I first encountered Leliana I was completely towards the "This is the point where I slowly back away..." direction. I returned a while later and took her into the party, but just let her sit in the camp, while romancing Morrigan.
It was more on my second playthrough that I decided to try the Leliana option, and I must say I wasn't disappointed. She's just the type of character that grows more and more to your heart the more time you spend with her.
Similiar to Loghain, she is a really wellwritten character that gives you the first impression of being kind of crazy, but once you learn their stories you get to understand them a great deal and they grow even more on you. Those that have read The Stolen Throne understand what Loghain has been through and it's hard to be angry at him.
It's similiar with Leliana, especially when you unlock the Marjolenee ( I don't know how to spell her name, sorry) quest, you really feel sorry for Leliana and she grows even closer to your heart, especially in the dialogues that follow.
I let my PC sacrifice himself at the end and the Epilogue with the romanced non-hardened Leliana really had me in tears, especially when the This is War song by 30 Seconds to Mars played during the credits. It moved me so deeply I started another playthrough right away, even though it was 3 a'clock in the morning. This time I spent even more time with Leliana, got to know her even better, sparing Loghain (I still think it's incredibly irresponsible of Alistair to do what he does at that point if you spare Loghain), letting Loghain bed Morrigan at the end, then running off to Orlais or somewhere with Leliana (hah, I'm sure Loghain doesn't approve of that).

Overall I must say I'm incredibly impressed with the romance options and stories in Dragon Age, considering this is meant to be an RPG game, NOT some kind of dating-game. And after reading through all the comments here I'm certainly going to go for Zevran on a female PC, right after I finish this round xD

Modifié par GrimReaperCalls, 12 janvier 2010 - 10:19 .

[Xandurpein]

Anything Zevran could possibly do bad in the game is excused by his utterly hilarious conversation where he tries to give advice to Alistair about his performance in bed. I laughed until tears...

Check it out here if you missed it in game:
www.youtube.com/watch

Modifié par Xandurpein, 12 janvier 2010 - 10:37 .

[ejoslin]

Topaz Bee wrote...

Well, with that cleared up, it does make sense. For all his dirty jokes and innuendos and 'easy lover achievement' he never seemed like the type to jump into bed willy-nilly with everybody he met(as many players tend to think). Like you said, it was a tool to him, to whatever end(usually death). Which, of course, is part of the reason for his 'turn around' later in the romance plot.

But enough of that, I'll go swallow a sock for now, and stop leading this thread off-topic. I find it hard to bite my tongue after a while, when people go dismiss Zev before giving him a chance. It's a waste of a wonderfully written character.

One thing I find so funny is the whole Isabela thing.  Zevran was hired to kill her husband so he took her as a lover, and she's only mad because after he killed her husband, job was done so he was gone.  And he was so good she still wanted him.  There obviously was a mutual respect there as well, so maybe her husband lived a bit longer than he would have otherwise, but I just found that whole thing a riot.

Hmmm, maybe I should swallow a sock as well . . .  

[Xandurpein]

ejoslin wrote...

Topaz Bee wrote...

Well, with that cleared up, it does make sense. For all his dirty jokes and innuendos and 'easy lover achievement' he never seemed like the type to jump into bed willy-nilly with everybody he met(as many players tend to think). Like you said, it was a tool to him, to whatever end(usually death). Which, of course, is part of the reason for his 'turn around' later in the romance plot.

But enough of that, I'll go swallow a sock for now, and stop leading this thread off-topic. I find it hard to bite my tongue after a while, when people go dismiss Zev before giving him a chance. It's a waste of a wonderfully written character.

One thing I find so funny is the whole Isabela thing.  Zevran was hired to kill her husband so he took her as a lover, and she's only mad because after he killed her husband, job was done so he was gone.  And he was so good she still wanted him.  There obviously was a mutual respect there as well, so maybe her husband lived a bit longer than he would have otherwise, but I just found that whole thing a riot.

Hmmm, maybe I should swallow a sock as well . . .  

I think it is hinted that Isabella actually profitted on her husbands death. The ship became hers when her husband, the previous owner, died. at least that is how I understood it. apparently she liked the ship (and Zevran) better than her late husband.

[ejoslin]

Xandurpein wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Topaz Bee wrote...

Well, with that cleared up, it does make sense. For all his dirty jokes and innuendos and 'easy lover achievement' he never seemed like the type to jump into bed willy-nilly with everybody he met(as many players tend to think). Like you said, it was a tool to him, to whatever end(usually death). Which, of course, is part of the reason for his 'turn around' later in the romance plot.

But enough of that, I'll go swallow a sock for now, and stop leading this thread off-topic. I find it hard to bite my tongue after a while, when people go dismiss Zev before giving him a chance. It's a waste of a wonderfully written character.

One thing I find so funny is the whole Isabela thing.  Zevran was hired to kill her husband so he took her as a lover, and she's only mad because after he killed her husband, job was done so he was gone.  And he was so good she still wanted him.  There obviously was a mutual respect there as well, so maybe her husband lived a bit longer than he would have otherwise, but I just found that whole thing a riot.

Hmmm, maybe I should swallow a sock as well . . .  

I think it is hinted that Isabella actually profitted on her husbands death. The ship became hers when her husband, the previous owner, died. at least that is how I understood it. apparently she liked the ship (and Zevran) better than her late husband.

Heh, it's not hinted at, she says it straight out.  But she was still mad that Zevran was gone after he killed her husband.

Edit:  You have to hand it to her, most women would have a far different reaction, even if they didn't like their husband!

Modifié par ejoslin, 12 janvier 2010 - 10:48 .

[Xandurpein]

It's really too bad you can't recruit Isabella as a companion. That would be a riot...

[Borschtbeet]

My problem with the romances is that both Lelianna and Morrigan were sex fiends. Why couldn't we at least have one sweet and innocent school girl type?

[errant_knight]

red8x wrote...

From a woman's POV (at the young end of Gen-X)...  just my opinion and based on my play-throughs...
I really enjoy Bioware games but when it comes to romantic options I always feel like it was an afterthought.  Yes, I know the game is an adventure story and not a romance, but if romantic options are going to be part of gameplay I think they could be better.  

Here are my thoughts on the three romantic options:

Alistair - I guess he was supposed to be the leading man.  I guess it was supposed to be a refreshing twist that he was a virgin.  For lack of better words he just wasn't manly enough.  Even the other NPCs felt the same. They question his intelligence and sexuality.  I know he was cloistered but it felt like trying to romance a 14 year old.  I guess for my personal tastes he was just too metro.  Plus a lot of his romantic gestures seemed like lines from an inexperienced lounge lizard, an unpracticed pick up artist.  I guess some girls like this and respond to these puerile romantic gestures but not me. 

Sorry, I stopped reading at the bolded part. You couldn't posibly be interested in the opinion of someone so jejune as to respond to purile romantic gestures.