47 réponses à ce sujet

[Superninfreak]

For this thread I'm going to ignore the plot holes in the endings, I just want to adress the claim that the ending was good because it wasn't a "fairy-tale ending".

Mass Effect has never been about pyrrhic victories. Mass Effect has always been about earning a happy ending. Said happy ending will still have sacrifices, but if you work hard you'll get a pretty good result. In ME1 Ash/Kaiden died, but if you worked hard enough Wrex could survive. In ME2 every single person in the suicide mission could survive, you could reconcile loyalty conflicts, and you could get Tali declared innocent without the evidence. You could always get a good ending if you were prepared for it. This is a continual theme in the series, the idea that happiness is hard to achieve but still possible.

Even ME3 had this in some parts, like with the Quarian/Geth peace you can establish.

I have nothing against sad endings. Some of my favorite plotlines in games are Silent Hill 2 and the deal ending of GTAIV - both of which are incredibly sad. Sad endings have thier place when they actually fit with the themes of a work.

The thing is that it is not okay to have a sad ending come out of left field like this as our only option. ME3 showed us early on that we were outclassed, but the series up to that point led us to believe that IF we managed to rally the whole galaxy well enough, that we could defeat the reapers without screwing over the galaxy as a result. It should be damn hard to get happiness, and there would be sacrifices (for example, Mordin dying to cure the genophage), but things would mostly end up with hope.

Of course, if you don't do enough stuff you should be punished with an ending where things don't turn out well (and if you really screw up the Reapers should be able to win), but in the previous games we've always been able to improve our situation with enough hard work.

I just don't get how some people could be cool with only a sad ending after how ridiculously successful Shepard is everywhere else in the series (if you do an ideal playthrough). If it's not "realistic" to be able to get a good ending now, why was it "realistic" to convince Wrex to destroy a cure for the genophage in ME1? Why was it realistic to get Tali pardoned without evidence?

Modifié par Superninfreak, 10 mars 2012 - 11:41 .

[Shloader]

You're right. But the endings aren't only sad, they're tragic (ignoring the plot holes). Nothing fits the established traits of the Shepard character. Lets back up to Mordin Solus, Thane Krios, and Legion. What do their deaths have in common? Well in my play they 'died in the fullest pursuit of their heart' (ten points for where that line came from). They all died as a direct result of choices they believed in. A big question that's been bothering me is... did Shepard? Well as I see it with the choices at hand, no.

All Endings - At a minimum complete segregation of the intergalactic community with the explosion of the relays. Joker, for reasons no one can explain to satisfaction, picked up your squad mates immediately after Harbinger blasted you and had to start booking it to the Charon relay, getting stranded somewhere along the way. Oh Crap, glaring plot hole. Ignore the last part. And just what happens to the various races in the fleet? All stranded in the local cluster? At Earth? Suppose we got room now.

Red Ending : Well stand back if you're going to shoot something that's going to explode. Had to say that. That out of the way you're going to destroy all tech that can support synthetic life. But didn't Tali say the Geth can exist in any platform with enough computational power, up to and including Quarian suite hardware? So... bad enough you're going to screw the Geth over but you're going to possibly Kill a lot of Quarians who can't adapt to their home fast enough. Not to mention those in the flotilla stranded in the local cluster to die even more painfully away from the home world. Yeah... and this is the ending you can potentially survive? Please.

Green Ending. Completely morally objectionable for me. It's one thing if JC Denton wants to interface himself with an AI, that was his choice (which was NOT improved upon in DE2). Shepard is going to make that decision for the entire existence of sentient life in our galaxy? No. Don't have the right to choose with the existence of any lesser evil alternative.

Blue Ending. This is the only real choice. It's the least... damaging?

I don't mind if I need to complete a second play-through with a EMS of 8500+ I need something else. All I want is an ending that makes me want to play again. It need not be Happy, Sad, Disney, or whatever. See, I no longer look at the endings of 1 and 2 as endings... just long cut scenes. 3 is it and I just want an ending that makes sense, that make me actually want to play all three games again. That's all. Don't care how hard it is to get if it's at all attainable.

Modifié par Shloader, 11 mars 2012 - 09:03 .

[ChaosMarky]

I dont mind a sad ending.. Sometimes the story calls for it (Final Fantasy X anyone?). What I dont understand about ME3's ending, is why the hell are the 3 endings the same??? (except for the color of the space magic).

Maybe it would've helped if they had an afterword/epilogue explaining what the hell happened to the universe after the lights show.

[RubiconI7]

Sad endings are great, tragic, sad and depressing endings have shaped literature. (Macbeth, Hamlet,)

The thing about this ending and the medium for that matter is that one that it does not offer closure. We expected our decisions would come to fruition and see the impact of those said decisions, instead we get three essentially same endings.

[The Angry One]

Yeah you have to love the red ending. You get to live! Maybe. But you betray your allies who are there with you. Fighting for you. Fighting to save Earth. And you're going to kill them because a little brat says they want to kill you.. WHEN HE'S THE ONE TRYING TO KILL YOU.

I swear the real Shep would've grabbed his punk ass by the neck and said "You see those Geth? You see those synthetic life forms?? They're out there right now defending organics. Defending us against YOU, you presumptious little jerk! Who the hell are YOU to lecture me on protecting organics. They're protecting us. You're killing us!"

Modifié par The Angry One, 11 mars 2012 - 09:20 .

[Mr. Big Pimpin]

Exactly right, OP. This is why everybody saying "happy endings are stupid" or similar really annoy me.

[silentfall]

RubiconI7 wrote...

Sad endings are great, tragic, sad and depressing endings have shaped literature. (Macbeth, Hamlet,)

The thing about this ending and the medium for that matter is that one that it does not offer closure. We expected our decisions would come to fruition and see the impact of those said decisions, instead we get three essentially same endings.

A true tragedy spans the entirety of the work, not just the ending.  Macbeth isn't a tragedy because he dies at the end, it's a tragedy because we see the Macbeth's gradual descent into madness.  The entire play is full of elements that ultimately lead to the tragic ending, right from the foreshadowing at the beginning to Macbeth's famous soliloquy prior to his demise.  "Tomorrow and tomorrow and tomorrow..."

With the Mass Effect series, on the other hand, a perfect paragon playthrough has absolutely no indications that it will end in a tragic ending - every action that Paragon Shepard has done points to a theme of hope and overcoming great odds.  The ending as it stands only fits thematically  with an imperfect playthrough, one where Shepard failed to unite the Geth/Quarians, destroyed the genophage cure, etc.

[Greed1914]

OP is right. The lack of a truly good ending isn't maddening because I want to be all warm and fuzzy at the end, but because most of the time the game allowed me to get that if I put in the effort. If I stuck to my morality I could paragon/renegade my way out of a pro/con situation and have just the pros. If I jumped through enough hoops with side missions, I'd be rewarded with something good.

Somehow, the same series that let me come out of a "SUICIDE MISSION" unscathed if I followed through didn't give me anything remotely resembling a good outcome in the end.

[Ivanssaran]

Strongly agreed. The whole series have been building up that very theme; Hope and effort resulting in victory and survival. When Shepard comes out of the rubble and poses hero on top of that and with earth on the background at the end of ME1, and when s/he returns to the normandy after the suicide mission with all the crew, these moments were vivid implication and promise that there will be a victorious ending along with numerous decisions that pays off in good ways later. This theme, implications, and promises were brutally ignored. This incoherence cannot be excused.
Also, check out this thread; http://social.biowar...49689/2#9769993
It deals with lack of the endings(like this thread) and some more.

[lakdav]

I dont get some people...exactly how much hope do you want? Its the freakin Reaping of the Galaxy. There is no way it will return to the way it was before Eden Prime. Change comes regardless of all the victories. You cant end an eternal cicle of extinction and war between organics and synthetics without changing the very foundation of that circular history.

The good ending is that you got to the end and got to choose. And yes, Shepard is the one to choose for the entire Galaxy, not just becouse s/he is the protagonist, but becouse s/he knows whats best. Explored the entire galaxy, saw every conflict, every consequence. The choice at the end is not for anybody else to make.

[lasertank]

I don't mind a sad ending. A illogical ending bothers me. All three choices are given from the kid AI which Shepard had only a one minute conversation with. And Bioware says : "OKEY. Now time to choose: Green, Blue, or Red". Compared with the Vigil VI in ME1, the kid AI offers poor information and Shepard bought it? Make no sense.

[lakdav]

Doesnt it? The story of the quarians and the geth is pretty much a foresetting for the final dilemma. Hell, the entire series is full of the 3 choices: destroy, dominate or coexist. We dont need any more information from the AI. It explains how it began, explains the purpose of the cicles, and how it appearently failed by Shepard getting there. Other than that, what else would Shepard do if not belive it?

Walk away? Reapers win, everything was for nothing, even the Crucible with its plans in the making for countless cicles.

[geraintcb2009]

The Angry One wrote...
I swear the real Shep would've grabbed his punk ass by the neck and said "You see those Geth? You see those synthetic life forms?? They're out there right now defending organics. Defending us against YOU, you presumptious little jerk! Who the hell are YOU to lecture me on protecting organics. They're protecting us. You're killing us!"

That was more or less what I was waiting for, what MY Shepard would have done, just in a nicer way (paragon all the way).

[lasertank]

lakdav wrote...

Doesnt it? The story of the quarians and the geth is pretty much a foresetting for the final dilemma. Hell, the entire series is full of the 3 choices: destroy, dominate or coexist. We dont need any more information from the AI. It explains how it began, explains the purpose of the cicles, and how it appearently failed by Shepard getting there. Other than that, what else would Shepard do if not belive it?

Walk away? Reapers win, everything was for nothing, even the Crucible with its plans in the making for countless cicles.

How hard is it for Shepard to come up the following argument?
"If you, the Catalyst, controls the reaper, please call off the reaper fleet and back off. Leave everything as it was. The current situation of the galaxy is devastating not because the "INEVITABLE CONFLICT BETWEEN ORGANIC AND SYNTHETIC" but because of you. BTW, if you are so mighty and care for organics, you confine the Geth when the war begins if there would ever be one. For now, you are just a threat to the galaxy."

Without the argument, the Shepard is nothing but an indoctrinated pawn just like Saren and  TIM.

[Esquin]

Actually lakdav that is exactly what my shep would do. Those were not options he would be willing to accept. Better to die on our own terms, fighting for something, then to sacrifice so much for uncertainty.

We destroy the crucible, destroy all record of it. Start our own cycle. If we're going to die then we make it different. Take a page from the Protheans book. Seed Liara's time capsules across the galaxy. Everywhere, there will be a record of the reapers, of what they were. Of what they can do. The next cycle will be ready. And we will tell them the same, pass on what they learn. Tell the next cycle what must be done if you cannot win yourselves. The reapers must be destroyed. We must destroy them. Not through choices presented to us by their leader. But through the sweat, blood and sacrifice of a trillion souls fighting to defend freedom. Fighting for a future.

[Esquin]

lasertank wrote...

lakdav wrote...

Doesnt it? The story of the quarians and the geth is pretty much a foresetting for the final dilemma. Hell, the entire series is full of the 3 choices: destroy, dominate or coexist. We dont need any more information from the AI. It explains how it began, explains the purpose of the cicles, and how it appearently failed by Shepard getting there. Other than that, what else would Shepard do if not belive it?

Walk away? Reapers win, everything was for nothing, even the Crucible with its plans in the making for countless cicles.

How hard is it for Shepard to come up the following argument?
"If you, the Catalyst, controls the reaper, please call off the reaper fleet and back off. Leave everything as it was. The current situation of the galaxy is devastating not because the "INEVITABLE CONFLICT BETWEEN ORGANIC AND SYNTHETIC" but because of you. BTW, if you are so mighty and care for organics, you confine the Geth when the war begins if there would ever be one. For now, you are just a threat to the galaxy."

Without the argument, the Shepard is nothing but an indoctrinated pawn just like Saren and  TIM.

I'd like to add another reason that the catalysts arguments were flawed. The Geth didn't want to destroy organics. They wanted to avoid us. Their plan was retreat. They wanted to live on their own, in peace. The Reapers stopped them doing that. 

But as i've pointed out, I suspect the falacy of the catalyst is half the point. It must be surely. No one at bioware could be so .......

[lakdav]

Im not saying the Catalyst was right. Im saying Shepard's choice is his/her own. Of course, the choices are limited, but what the hell, its the end of the world as we know it. We cant possible have everything we want.

And the Geth fighting for organics is exactly the point of the Synthesis choice. The quarians for example would propably have gone this path anyaway, with their geth in their suits being the start of it.

So the walk away option would have been fine by you? I guess, you have your own Shepard, as i have mine. But isnt the point of Shepards story to break the circle? Personaly i dont want to replay the prothean method. And how is choosing the entire galaxy to be harvested a morally superior choice? Thats pretty much giving up, saying "Well, we tried, good luck for the next bunch."

[Navasha]

I guess I need to do another play through to see why people are upset. My ending wasn't really all that sad. Shepard ends up sacrificing her life to re-write the genetic code of the entire galaxy combining everyone into a synthetic/organic hybrid thereby wiping away the need for the continual cycle of the reapers. The relays are destroyed because they were the representation of the 'shackles' needed for the cycle. Life could now choose its OWN path and not be reliant on the infrastructure that forced them down a certain path. The new symbiosis of synthetic/organic would likely be a common bond now between the races who now also have a shared history of cooperation, meaning that you can assume a very long period of peace.

Maybe I need to play it again and try for a different ending to see why people are upset.

[phimseto]

It is simple: when the fleet mobilized against the reapers, I watched in awe. When characters I knew well died, I got misty eyed. The problem with the ending is that emotionally and narratively it stands apart from those connections and everything in-between. It exists in its own bubble. That is problematic.

I was raving about the game to friends over text while playing out the final battle. When I was them later that night, they noticed my subdued feelings and evasive ways of talking about the game. I didn't want to say that I love 99% of it except the end, because they deserve a chance to discover it on their own. Again, this is a problem for BW.

I think they did many thisngs right in me3, but got carried away with there themes. All their underlying themes are already dealt with organically (pun intended) in the games. At the end, people just want to blow up the Death Star, get the medal (posthumously or not), and save the galaxy.

[Kamifel]

Mass effect were never about "happy ending". All the three games talk about selfsacrifice and nescessary colateral damage.

Sheppard had to die for completing the story.

[Sorayai]

Shepard always symbolized hope, triumph, strength, determination and survival against the most impossible odds, so for Shepard to die (or be all alone) didn't go with the theme IMO

also Joker & crew.... wtf?

[Nu-Nu]

The sad endings are good, but they are ruined because Bioware didn't give us good endings too. That choices and consequences doesn't matter at all. You don't get any closure, you don't see consequences, all that choices you got to make for the last 3 games have been boiled down to nothing. The synthesis was the only "good" ending for me, even if Shepard din't survive, it's the only ending where the people left behind (Joker and Edi) were smiling. Bioware makes a big deal out of choices, and then takes it away. I seriously hope they fixed this, like Bethedsa fixed Fallout 3 ending.

[deathscythe517]

Kamifel, HAD to die? No, potentially die? Sure, it's the end of the story. But just like Mass Effect 2 you shouldn't have been forced to make that decision - in the second you could either pull off a relatively flawless victory, **** up and get many dear friends killed, or **** up really bad (people who do this often do it on purpose because 'dark is deep') and get yourself and everyone you cared about killed. We were promised DISTINCT and CONCLUSIVE endings, endings, with an s, instead we get the same three endings with minor variations. It was either ****** poor writing, being cheap as hell about creating individual CGI animations for distinct endings, or they rushed at the end.

Regardless, you may have wanted your Shepard to die, that doesn't mean everyone else did. It should have been an option and not forced upon you.

And if you say "oh you didn't expect it though" well yeah, that's why we're pissed, we didn't expect the endings to be identical and so freaking idiotic and brought to us courteousy of a space-god-out-of-nowhere that Shepard completely breaks character when confronted by. Twist endings are only good if the twist is somewhat grounded and foreshadowed, this was not, it felt like an ending to a different game and in essence it was like we were taking everything about Mass Effect and then disposing of it in a vat of acid.

As someone once said: Yeah Mrs Brisby is broccoli, you didn't expect that, but just because you didn't expect something doesn't make it good.

[Hebrew42hammer]

I think closure is the reall reason people are mad, just tell us what happened to all our characters... wouldnt take long.

Shep dieing I dont think is against the theme of hope. The guy gave the ultimate sacrifice to give hope to ALL. In the end he won. I guess he coud of told the entity screw you Im jumping, but with what he had.... he made the best of it.This statement coming from the idea that mass effect relay explosion decided not to kill the entire system the relay was in.

[tamperous]

The whole theme of the ME trilogy was that nothing is inevitable.

Until you meet the boy. Then you learn that coexistence with synthetic AI isn't possible because he's never seen it. And he's never seen it because every time it's come close to that, he hit Ctrl-Alt-Del on the galaxy. So the only way forward is to do what he says or to merge with AIs. What about all the life that isn't intelligent does it get merged too? Cuz I really want to see slime mold with robotic grafted on. 

Modifié par tamperous, 11 mars 2012 - 01:27 .