47 réponses à ce sujet

[Superninfreak]

Navasha wrote...

I guess I need to do another play through to see why people are upset. My ending wasn't really all that sad. Shepard ends up sacrificing her life to re-write the genetic code of the entire galaxy combining everyone into a synthetic/organic hybrid thereby wiping away the need for the continual cycle of the reapers. The relays are destroyed because they were the representation of the 'shackles' needed for the cycle. Life could now choose its OWN path and not be reliant on the infrastructure that forced them down a certain path. The new symbiosis of synthetic/organic would likely be a common bond now between the races who now also have a shared history of cooperation, meaning that you can assume a very long period of peace.

Maybe I need to play it again and try for a different ending to see why people are upset.

For one, that ending forces the galaxy to be a certain way against their will.

It's also an illogical ending. ME has always tried to be plausible, but there's no way to explain how the Crucible could instantly change every single form of life.

The relays being destroyed frees the galaxy from reaper direction, but it means the entire galaxy is segmented for generations.

Kamifel wrote...

Mass effect were never about "happy ending". All the three games talk about selfsacrifice and nescessary colateral damage.

Sheppard had to die for completing the story.

Explain to me how getting through ME2 without a single casualty wasn't a happy ending.

It's fine to have sacrifice, I'd be fine with Shepard having to die, but I be forced to screw over the entire galaxy by destroying the mass relays.

Modifié par Superninfreak, 11 mars 2012 - 01:32 .

[chambers]

silentfall wrote...

With the Mass Effect series, on the other hand, a perfect paragon playthrough has absolutely no indications that it will end in a tragic ending - every action that Paragon Shepard has done points to a theme of hope and overcoming great odds.  The ending as it stands only fits thematically  with an imperfect playthrough, one where Shepard failed to unite the Geth/Quarians, destroyed the genophage cure, etc.

This.

The thing I keep coming back to is the end of DA:O. The Warden can die. My Warden did die during my second playthrough. And I was cool with that. She gave her life to stop the Blight. It was sad, but more importantly, there was closure. I knew what had happened to Ferelden, and my friends, and my LI. All it took was reading the epilogue text to feel like my choices had mattered, even though my hero had fallen.

Of course, the big difference is that the story in DA:O easily flowed towards a tragic end. After five years with Shepard, I knew she'd always get through it, no matter how grim things got. To me, Shepard is a symbol of symbol of hope and perseverance. If the only path through the Mass Effect series had been dark and bleak, I'd have been fine with a harsh, pragmatic ending. But for those of us who played Paragon, all those great speeches about sticking together and beating the odds feel hollow now. I don't need a warm fuzzy ending. I was totally expecting some of Shepard's friends to die. But I just can't make those last ten minutes fit with who the rest of the series has painted her to be.

[Sylvanfeather]

chambers wrote...

silentfall wrote...

With the Mass Effect series, on the other hand, a perfect paragon playthrough has absolutely no indications that it will end in a tragic ending - every action that Paragon Shepard has done points to a theme of hope and overcoming great odds.  The ending as it stands only fits thematically  with an imperfect playthrough, one where Shepard failed to unite the Geth/Quarians, destroyed the genophage cure, etc.

This.

The thing I keep coming back to is the end of DA:O. The Warden can die. My Warden did die during my second playthrough. And I was cool with that. She gave her life to stop the Blight. It was sad, but more importantly, there was closure. I knew what had happened to Ferelden, and my friends, and my LI. All it took was reading the epilogue text to feel like my choices had mattered, even though my hero had fallen.

Of course, the big difference is that the story in DA:O easily flowed towards a tragic end. After five years with Shepard, I knew she'd always get through it, no matter how grim things got. To me, Shepard is a symbol of symbol of hope and perseverance. If the only path through the Mass Effect series had been dark and bleak, I'd have been fine with a harsh, pragmatic ending. But for those of us who played Paragon, all those great speeches about sticking together and beating the odds feel hollow now. I don't need a warm fuzzy ending. I was totally expecting some of Shepard's friends to die. But I just can't make those last ten minutes fit with who the rest of the series has painted her to be.

A great ending isn't just exclusive to Paragon either though. A Renegade could also talk Saren down and surivive a suicide mission, with all the squad intact. Which is why I thought the 3rd choice was going to be something only available to someone that had a maxed reputation, and they could turn the Catalyst down. Alas...

To quote Two-Face, "You either die a hero or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain."

To be honest, all the choices left me feeling like a villain in some manner.

[Kamifel]

Explain to me how getting through ME2 without a single casualty wasn't a happy ending.

It's fine to have sacrifice, I'd be fine with Shepard having to die, but I be forced to screw over the entire galaxy by destroying the mass relays.

The Mass relay were symbolising the reapers path the all previous cycle had taken. The destruction of the mass relay mark the point where the galaxy is free of the cycle and must go on without reapers influence.

[chambers]

Sylvanfeather wrote...

A great ending isn't just exclusive to Paragon either though. A Renegade could also talk Saren down and surivive a suicide mission, with all the squad intact. Which is why I thought the 3rd choice was going to be something only available to someone that had a maxed reputation, and they could turn the Catalyst down. Alas...

To quote Two-Face, "You either die a hero or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain."

To be honest, all the choices left me feeling like a villain in some manner.

Good point. None of those endings left me feeling like the good guy.

[Sylvanfeather]

Kamifel wrote...

Explain to me how getting through ME2 without a single casualty wasn't a happy ending.

It's fine to have sacrifice, I'd be fine with Shepard having to die, but I be forced to screw over the entire galaxy by destroying the mass relays.

The Mass relay were symbolising the reapers path the all previous cycle had taken. The destruction of the mass relay mark the point where the galaxy is free of the cycle and must go on without reapers influence.

Agreed. That's the one choice you aren't asked to make with the ending; it's going to happen and to me it makes sense. I'm betting on someone having, at least theoretically, figured out how to travel without relays, if not having started a prototype. Seems that there might be some races that wanted to push exploration beyond relay systems, Andromeda Galaxy anyone?

Modifié par Sylvanfeather, 11 mars 2012 - 02:32 .

[Kloborgg711]

Kamifel wrote...

Mass effect were never about "happy ending". All the three games talk about selfsacrifice and nescessary colateral damage.

Sheppard had to die for completing the story.

I recall ending Mass Effect by destroying a Reaper and preventing galactic apocalypse, while keeping all my closest friends alive and by my side.
I recall ending Mass Effect 2 by going into a suicide mission with a big team and coming out unscathed, because I chose so. If YOU thought "My Shepard's story is about sacrifice and colateral damage", YOU could have made it play out as such.

What you're saying is false. Mass Effect could have been about self-sacrifice for YOU, but it certainly wasn't for everyone. As a paragon player, the constant messages of hope, post-reaper rebuilding, victory, and a life with my LI certainly didn't prepare me for "LOL R/B/G PICK". As others have said, it felt completely disconnected and foreign to the rest of the story.

[Kloborgg711]

Kamifel wrote...

The Mass relay were symbolising the reapers path the all previous cycle had taken. The destruction of the mass relay mark the point where the galaxy is free of the cycle and must go on without reapers influence.

Oh great, it's symbolic. Unfortunately such a symbolic "victory" involves plunging the galaxy we're fighting to protect into a depressing dark age of loneliness. I don't buy that the relays simply had to go, there was absolutely nothing inherently wrong with them.

[DarkSpider88]

lakdav wrote...

I dont get some people...exactly how much hope do you want? Its the freakin Reaping of the Galaxy. There is no way it will return to the way it was before Eden Prime. Change comes regardless of all the victories. You cant end an eternal cicle of extinction and war between organics and synthetics without changing the very foundation of that circular history.

The good ending is that you got to the end and got to choose. And yes, Shepard is the one to choose for the entire Galaxy, not just becouse s/he is the protagonist, but becouse s/he knows whats best. Explored the entire galaxy, saw every conflict, every consequence. The choice at the end is not for anybody else to make.

The point for me here is Shepard has continually throughout the series could stress that organics are not perfect but it is their struggle to become better that makes them who they are. The Shepard we have been playing would have told the Reaper kid, "Maybe you're right. Maybe organics and synthetics do destroy each other, but it should up to us to decide how our story unfolds. Humanity is all about struggle and sacrifice, and sure we will stumble at times but I have seen us rise to the occasion more than once. Everything you are offering still takes choice away from us."

[Sywen]

Kloborgg711 wrote...

Kamifel wrote...

Mass effect were never about "happy ending". All the three games talk about selfsacrifice and nescessary colateral damage.

Sheppard had to die for completing the story.

I recall ending Mass Effect by destroying a Reaper and preventing galactic apocalypse, while keeping all my closest friends alive and by my side.
I recall ending Mass Effect 2 by going into a suicide mission with a big team and coming out unscathed, because I chose so. If YOU thought "My Shepard's story is about sacrifice and colateral damage", YOU could have made it play out as such.

What you're saying is false. Mass Effect could have been about self-sacrifice for YOU, but it certainly wasn't for everyone. As a paragon player, the constant messages of hope, post-reaper rebuilding, victory, and a life with my LI certainly didn't prepare me for "LOL R/B/G PICK". As others have said, it felt completely disconnected and foreign to the rest of the story.

This is what most of my Shepards are about.

Those criticising us seem to be forgetting ME has always been about choices.  We should be able to choose and work for a happy ending.  If you want an ending to sacrifice your Shepard then you choose that ending.  I prolly would have had a couple do taht if it made sense.  As it is now, the Shepard that I used in ME3 is the last Shepard I will ever play.  Thats what is truely heartbreaking for me.  They ruined what I thought ME was about.

[Kamifel]

Kloborgg711 wrote...

Kamifel wrote...

The Mass relay were symbolising the reapers path the all previous cycle had taken. The destruction of the mass relay mark the point where the galaxy is free of the cycle and must go on without reapers influence.

Oh great, it's symbolic. Unfortunately such a symbolic "victory" involves plunging the galaxy we're fighting to protect into a depressing dark age of loneliness. I don't buy that the relays simply had to go, there was absolutely nothing inherently wrong with them.

No, it put the galaxy in a age where it's his species who decide where to go and have now the challenge to build their own mass relay.

It's not a symbolic victory. It's far more than that, it's a total victory against the reapers. They're not a threat and their influence is gone, the galaxy is free to go where his people want's. Not a path whoosed by synthetics.

Modifié par Kamifel, 11 mars 2012 - 03:32 .

[Kamifel]

Sywen wrote...

Kloborgg711 wrote...

Kamifel wrote...

Mass effect were never about "happy ending". All the three games talk about selfsacrifice and nescessary colateral damage.

Sheppard had to die for completing the story.

I recall ending Mass Effect by destroying a Reaper and preventing galactic apocalypse, while keeping all my closest friends alive and by my side.
I recall ending Mass Effect 2 by going into a suicide mission with a big team and coming out unscathed, because I chose so. If YOU thought "My Shepard's story is about sacrifice and colateral damage", YOU could have made it play out as such.

What you're saying is false. Mass Effect could have been about self-sacrifice for YOU, but it certainly wasn't for everyone. As a paragon player, the constant messages of hope, post-reaper rebuilding, victory, and a life with my LI certainly didn't prepare me for "LOL R/B/G PICK". As others have said, it felt completely disconnected and foreign to the rest of the story.

This is what most of my Shepards are about.

Those criticising us seem to be forgetting ME has always been about choices.  We should be able to choose and work for a happy ending.  If you want an ending to sacrifice your Shepard then you choose that ending.  I prolly would have had a couple do taht if it made sense.  As it is now, the Shepard that I used in ME3 is the last Shepard I will ever play.  Thats what is truely heartbreaking for me.  They ruined what I thought ME was about.

You were one of the player who were thinking " shepard will attack a giant space station used to reap entire population, against an ennemy far more powerfull and intelligent, succed and comback alive" ?

the ending of me2 was dissapointing from my point of view. It should have been possible to save everyone. Some sacrifice should have been nescessary.

What's wrong with the ending it's the lack of narration about what's happen to the rest of the character, the rest is fine.

Modifié par Kamifel, 11 mars 2012 - 03:36 .

[Yagamoth3433]

Welcome to Mass Effect 40k. Shepard gave his life to destroy the relays and yet stranded many alien fleets in the sol system. In the grim dark future of Mass Effect 40k there is only war as alien races fight it out for what little resources remain. Yet there is hope for the galaxy in the form of N7 operatives. Humanities elite tirelessly fight against the alien, the heretic, and the unclean. In the grim dark future of Mass Effect there can be only war.

Modifié par Yagamoth3433, 11 mars 2012 - 03:39 .

[lakdav]

So what most of you want is Blue ending with Shepard surviving and Mass Relays intact. Or any ending realy, just leave Shp alive and the relays intact. What that would need is a ridiculous amount of new war assets to make it make sense, or draw a new line in the numbers to get this ending and conversation choices. I could live with that. The ending is perfect for MY main shep, but i can symphatise with the desire for new endings.

What i would like to see in any case though is what was mentioned a thousand times already, some concept of what the world became with our choices. DA:O slides were fine enough i think. If nothing else, then simple text with a slowly rotating ingame model of what the text is about (geth, krogan etc). Hell, i dont care about my squadmates, i can fill in the white spots about them if i have a basic idea about the entire species, might be a good fodder for future fanfics.

And yeah, i gotta admit, the Normandy scene doesnt make much sense and only invokes a neglectable amount of emotion if i choose green. Even if the relays destruction is not changed, that one part should.

[julian08]

The Angry One wrote...

Yeah you have to love the red ending. You get to live! Maybe. But you betray your allies who are there with you. Fighting for you. Fighting to save Earth. And you're going to kill them because a little brat says they want to kill you.. WHEN HE'S THE ONE TRYING TO KILL YOU.

I swear the real Shep would've grabbed his punk ass by the neck and said "You see those Geth? You see those synthetic life forms?? They're out there right now defending organics. Defending us against YOU, you presumptious little jerk! Who the hell are YOU to lecture me on protecting organics. They're protecting us. You're killing us!"

If you don't mind, I'm going to make this little speech from actual Shepard (not to be confused with I-do-whatever-the-StarChild-commands Shepard) part of my personal canon ending.
The one I'm currently making up and trying to convince myself that it is the one that really happened. I have to say, this is the first time in my life that I'm tempted to start writing fan fiction, just because I want another ending for this game on paper lying in front of me.

I understand that people want a happy ending for this game. I really do. We want the characters we spend so much time with to finally get something back for all the sacrifices they have made.
As for my Shep: I always expected him to make the ultimate sacrifice in the end. As sad as it is, I always figured that he would probably have to secure victory for the races of the galaxy at the cost of his life.
However, he deserved better than spending his last living moments being ordered around and lectured by a murderous StarChild with a god complex. All I wanted was an ending that would do him justice. And at first I was sure that I would get it. I just waited for an interrupt to pop up. I wanted my Shep to set that little scumbag straight and ask him who the hell he thinks he is to play god and decide the fate of countless sentient species, trillions of innocent people who just want to live their life. Can you imagine my confusion and flat-out terror when I realized that Shepard, MY Shepard was just standing there and swallowing the steaming bs this guy was dishing out?
I was prepared for a sad ending. I was not prepared for my Shep being stripped of every last piece of his dignity and personality, and then watching a cut scene that was the rough equivalent of being viciously beaten over the head with a club made out of frozen 'What the Hell?!'

[ApophisGoauld]

Superninfreak wrote...

For this thread I'm going to ignore the plot holes in the endings, I just want to adress the claim that the ending was good because it wasn't a "fairy-tale ending".

Mass Effect has never been about pyrrhic victories. Mass Effect has always been about earning a happy ending. Said happy ending will still have sacrifices, but if you work hard you'll get a pretty good result. In ME1 Ash/Kaiden died, but if you worked hard enough Wrex could survive. In ME2 every single person in the suicide mission could survive, you could reconcile loyalty conflicts, and you could get Tali declared innocent without the evidence. You could always get a good ending if you were prepared for it. This is a continual theme in the series, the idea that happiness is hard to achieve but still possible.

Even ME3 had this in some parts, like with the Quarian/Geth peace you can establish.

I have nothing against sad endings. Some of my favorite plotlines in games are Silent Hill 2 and the deal ending of GTAIV - both of which are incredibly sad. Sad endings have thier place when they actually fit with the themes of a work.

The thing is that it is not okay to have a sad ending come out of left field like this as our only option. ME3 showed us early on that we were outclassed, but the series up to that point led us to believe that IF we managed to rally the whole galaxy well enough, that we could defeat the reapers without screwing over the galaxy as a result. It should be damn hard to get happiness, and there would be sacrifices (for example, Mordin dying to cure the genophage), but things would mostly end up with hope.

Of course, if you don't do enough stuff you should be punished with an ending where things don't turn out well (and if you really screw up the Reapers should be able to win), but in the previous games we've always been able to improve our situation with enough hard work.

I just don't get how some people could be cool with only a sad ending after how ridiculously successful Shepard is everywhere else in the series (if you do an ideal playthrough). If it's not "realistic" to be able to get a good ending now, why was it "realistic" to convince Wrex to destroy a cure for the genophage in ME1? Why was it realistic to get Tali pardoned without evidence?

I totally agree and sign it!!

[gmboy902]

It isn't the sad ending that sucks. It's the fact that it was so unresolved and conflicted with the previous story in so many ways. For starters, we have no idea how the Mass Effect universe will continue existing without relays. All of the plot up til then built up to returning characters home - for example, Tali was dreaming of the day she would return to her home. But now they're stuck on Earth.

Then there's the holes, oh God the holes. Why didn't Casper-sparkle-kidfromthesixthsense-roboghost-God open the Citadel's relay in the first game? Wouldn't blowing up the Mass Relays destroy the star systems? How are your allies magically on the Normandy with Joker, who is for some reason mid-jump, but none of the Normandy's crew is onboard (or survives the crash)?

[Jadebaby]

The Angry One wrote...

Yeah you have to love the red ending. You get to live! Maybe. But you betray your allies who are there with you. Fighting for you. Fighting to save Earth. And you're going to kill them because a little brat says they want to kill you.. WHEN HE'S THE ONE TRYING TO KILL YOU.

I swear the real Shep would've grabbed his punk ass by the neck and said "You see those Geth? You see those synthetic life forms?? They're out there right now defending organics. Defending us against YOU, you presumptious little jerk! Who the hell are YOU to lecture me on protecting organics. They're protecting us. You're killing us!"

It's funny, in every discussion I see you post in you constantly make good calls and the most sense to me, like ur style!

Oh and this +10.

[kramerfan86]

In two of the endings the reapers still exist and you only have the word of some mysterious AI entity (you know, the mastermind of the cycle) that the reapers wont do the cycle ever again. Excuse me if I dont exactly believe that. Heck even in the destruction ending they simply fall over deactivated, who is to trust that they cant ever reactivate if god child demands it?

[idunhavaname]

Agree. I don't understand why they only provided endings all with same outcome. Destruction of relays and citadel, normandy crew stranded on some unknown planet.

[Spectre_Shepard]

Mass Effect is about choice.

We weren;t given one.

If you want to CHOOSE to sacrifice Shepard, that's totally cool. But their should be another route to take.

[iGyman]

Brilliant ending... pick one and decide... that's what mass effect is all about... sure I could do with a brighter one... but man, when I finished the game... no other game I've ever played comes close...

Also the way the game ends... nobody knows exactly what will happen next there and that in a way is brilliant, in my opinion.

Modifié par iGyman, 12 mars 2012 - 07:13 .

[Thornne]

I would have had no problem with an ending that made me feel sad, but also gave a sense of finality and conclusion. I thought it was pretty clear that Shepard and most of the crew were probably going to die in the end.

But I did not feel sad after the ending in ME3. I felt annoyed. Rather than answer questions and give a sense of closure, I was left with yet more questions. Where is the Normandy going, and why? How did my companions get off Earth, and why? What happens to everyone?

If they were indeed shooting for an epic tragedy, I think they failed. Right there at the end, where it became a disjointed mess. It's a shame really.