4 réponses à ce sujet

[Askio]

Ok kiddies, come on in and take a seat. Here are a few
ground rules. I know that there is some incredible hate at the moment. Forget
Fallout 3 and the opinions on DA2, this is something I haven't seen in....well,
ever. But let me make one thing clear. This discussion isn't meant to be about
"omg endings are so bad I didn't get my LI, nooooooo". No. As much as
I would have liked to tell Ashley she'd have to wear her armor and get
something to bite down on when my Shepard got back to her after the battle,
this is a different sort of discussion. This is about the plot holes, potential
alternatives, and other similar, and constructive. Let me emphasize
constructive for you. Note, these are also all opinions. Be respectful to each
other, to EA, and to Bioware, as they have done good to us before. They make
mistakes. Some are just major crap loads larger than others.

Now on to my analysis. I will safely say that 99% of this game is great. I felt pissed when
Thane got killed, but also thought it was also kick ass that even when crippled
by disease, he still kicked ass. I did two play throughs, one with Ash and one
with Miranda as my LI, and it was nice to see the consequences went beyond
"what you're sleeping with both of us. Fck you Shepard!". In fact,
the final scene with the Illusive Man is beautiful. The Reapers played his love
for humanity and his blind pride so well he didn't know he was controlled. At
the end, he can be shown the error of his ways and kill himself. Even as a
paragon, I found the renegade ending more human, as at the end he says "I
wish you could see Earth as I do....Perfect." This really show that TIM
wanted the best for Earth, he just got messed up something nasty along the way,
combined with Reaper indoc., it wasn't pretty. Hell when Anderson gets killed
because of TIM and Shepard, I thought "damn, well done Bioware."
Because that made the sacrifice seem more personal and real, just like with
members of your squad that can die. If Bioware had just showed the scene with
Shepard hitting the controls and the Crucible fires off and kills the Reapers,
that would have worked for me so long as there as some epilogue telling what my
actions did. What is the fate of the Krogan between Wrex or Wrev leading them?
What happened to quarians and geth?



  I can accept an
ending where Shepard dies, ok. But here come the major loopholes in the story,
all of which come within 5 minutes.

-AI child. Why is it in the form of the child that is supposed to personify Shepard's feeling of
loss and despair? Can it read his mind? Is it just in Shepard's head?


-Why can I not challenge or convince the AI his logic is flawed? This is more true to Bioware
in previous games. My Shepard may seem paragon, but if I can convince Saren and
TIM to shoot their own brains out, unite synthetics and organics together to
fight reapers, and convince people Shepard is a living god, I think I Shepard
can convince an AI that he(Shepard) can help prevent the need for Reapers by
leading the Galaxy by example himself.


-Why are the reapers explained away in 5 minutes? There was a sort of mystery to their true
intentions. Leaving that alone could have been a new story for future ME games
or alternative forms of storytelling.

-If the AI is in the citadel, why all the back seat driving? Open up the thing for the reapers, let
them in, end it yourself. No middle person(or keepers). This flaw in logic also
ends the need for the keepers or any race left behind other than to be some
kind of maid service for the citadel.

 -Why is Joker in the relay when he is supposed to be killing reapers in space around Earth? Did he
magically just end up there? And how did Ashley and Garrus get there when they
were supposed to be sprinting around getting the crap blown out of them along
with Shepard? (this is one of the biggest ones IMO. It goes against everything
that happened in the story and contradicts the determination the characters
showed)

-Why is it that the renegade style option is the only way Shepard can supposedly live? Does
committing genocide on living synthetic races mean you're in the right? For a
supposedly thought proviking ending, this isn't a good message to send.

-Finally, why is it that in that short scene the man and child talking about Shepard, I feel like
my decisions mean nothing? When he said something along the lines of "no
one really knows, it was so long ago" with no mention of the good or bad
Shepard did, that was the final insult to me. Esentially, no epilogue sucks.
Terribly,


Now here are my alternatives that would still use the endings that make more sense to me.

1: Reapers win. This already exists if you don't have enough military strength. Good call on this
one Bioware.

2: Destruction of Synthetics. Shepard destroys the Citadel, Catalyst, and the Reapers; along with
all other synthetic life. He returns as a hero and organic life rules supreme.
Even with the Citadel and relays destroyed, all the genius organic minds are
together on Earth and more than capable of adapting and building new ones.
(just like the Matriarch on Ilium said they should).But the warning the AI
gives remains. One day, a new AI may take the place of the Reapers and start a
new and more terrible cycle of war and death.

3: The Control Ending. Shepard controls the Reapers and sends them into the sun or back into
dark space, commanding them not to return. All life, synthetic and organic, is
spared from each other and the Reapers. The Citadel and Relays remain intact.
Shepard returns as a hero. But the chance that the Catalyst returns and Reapers
are reborn hovers over the galaxy and Shepard's conscious.


4: Convince the AI it is wrong. Like I said, discussion is a huge point of Bioware games. I've
redeemed and condemned Malak, kicked Master Li's ass, survived the Sith as the
Exile, had a 3some and 4some because of my mage wiles in Dragon Age Origins,
ended the Templars or Mages as Hawke, kicked ass from one end of the galaxy to
the next as a Trooper Vanguard in The Old Republic, and so much more. But I did
so through choice. And there is only one dialogue wheel in the ending right
after that moving scene with the Illusive Man that was nothing but choice and
talking ? Really? So this seems like a viable option to the Shepards that take
the time to have a high reputation meter. He could convince the AI to destroy
only the Reapers and risk letting synthetics and organics living together or
fighting. OR convince it to sit and watch and let Shepard's cycle be a test run
to see if the two could coexist, eliminating the need for reapers in the
future.



5: Shepard Leaves: Shepard tells the AI it is wrong about synthetics and organics being unable to
coexist. And he'll prove it by marching out of the room, taking his chances
with the fleet , and proceeds in kicking Reaper ass. If your Military Rating is
high enough, this seems the plausible way to make it so Shepard and crew
live(or maybe have to sacrifice themselves if your military rating isn't high
enough). The Citadel and Catalyst are destroyed along with the Reapers, but the
relays are left intact. War may come between synthetics and organics in the
future, but for now the largest threat to the galaxy has been destroyed by
those that are very different but united for a greater cause.


6: The Sacrifice. Shepard understands the AI and makes the ultimate sacrifice in order to end the
conflict between synthetics and organics. While his death may not mean the end
of all war in life, it does end the need for the Reapers in the future of the
galaxy; making Shepard the saving grace for all life from ever having to suffer
the Reapers ever again. The Citadel is destroyed along with the Relays from the
energy used to make this happen, but life is safe to advance without
interference from Reapers as well. What is known about Shepard's sacrifice is
passed on by those that loved him and fought along side him for all future
generations to come.(THEN play the scene with man and the child. After the
epilogue telling me what my Shepard's actions did right after said ending
occurs).

Then, just apply certain deaths that go along with thestory. Maybe Shepard dies on the citadel if the military rating isn't high enough. Maybe thousands or millions more die but Shepard and crew live along
with the survivors. But in my opinion as a published writer and fan of ME from
day one, these seem to be the endings that would more fit in with ME's
storyline. None are perfect as there are flaws ranging from outright genocide,
potential genocide in the future, hitting a galaxy wide restart button, to just
getting your ass kicked, and so on. But as are, the endings give us mostly the
same ending with different colors shooting out depending on your choice. I
completely respect the writers at Bioware, as 99.8% of the trilogy was well
written. But the ending is the coup de graw. The final note of the piece. If it
fails, the story itself may as well fail. Close only counts in horseshoes, hand
grenades, and nuclear warfare after all.


 Now, discuss your analysis of the loopholes in the ending, give alternatives if you want. But keep it civil and reasonable. Remember that this topic is to give constructive and critical thinking, not some spam topic.
And feel free to comment and give constructive criticism on my ideas as well.

Modifié par Askio, 11 mars 2012 - 01:44 .

[colonelklenck]

well I took the time to read through all that, not sure how many other people will. Walls of text are intimidating.

Anyway, I think you are generally right. There needed to be more variance in the endings, and some kind of epilogue sequence showing more consequences of your decisions throughout the game would have been nice.

I think the writers may have gotten overwhelmed with the themes they were trying to get across and overlooked some basic logic, resulting in the loopholes you mentioned.

Overall, I didn't hate the ending, but I think there was potential for better, and looking back at, it seems like it was rushed.

[Harbinger of Fun]

I really like your proposed endings. Perhaps a full-evil Shep option where you can go power-mad after jacking the Reapers and do what the Illusive Man was too weak to do?

Regardless, it's nice to see someone with not only a complaint but also a solution.

...Even if it's too late for that... *sniff*

[Wattoes]

I didn't read the alternatives (soooo long!), but you nailed some of the big problems with the ending before that.

Just thought id recommend at the very least people read that section.

[Alamar2078]

Honestly I'm a "hater" but I will try to offer additional potential endings although I think you covered a lot of the main ones:

-- Reapers win. In the short-term Shep & company just hide from the Reapers and live whatever life they can. Your long term epilogue is that it is Sheapard showing up in the beacons warning the next generation about the Reapers. Perhaps you found the key to properly beat the Reapers but you didn't have enough time / resources to pull it off.

-- Reapers win: Shepard, friends, and scientists go into hiding / stasis to wait out the Reapers. This is similar to what the Protheans tried to do but on a smaller scale and with no records to track back. The goal is to wake up after the Reapers go back to dark space and start preparing for their return while you stay under the radar as much as possible.

-- Stalemate: You convince the Citadel AI / God Child that this cycle deserves a chance to play out. After all Shep has shown that sworn enemies can become friends and work through differences. If things really start falling apart then the Reapers can always come back and start up the cycle again.

-- The Reapers withdraw [Never to return??] -- The Babylon 5 option. If the Reapers are just tools maybe Shep and his alliance could tell them to get the heck out of the galaxy because they are not needed or wanted.

-- Reapers lose. Perhaps the Crucible is able to remotely shut down mass effect cores or render them temporarily inert on a targeted basis. This way you could shut down fields / weapons / drive systems of the Reapers and beat them [easily] in a more conventional sense. If you could lure the Reapers to one system you could even shut down the Mass Relay to make sure they stay put for a while ....