73 réponses à ce sujet

[Grovermancer]

Gecon wrote...

YR_Lim wrote...

Loetek wrote...

The only thing I would ask for is:
The lower your str = the slower you swing
The higher your str = the faster you swing

Yes that would make sense, if the warrior is strong enough... the weapon would be like wielding a feather.

Which in turn would mean they need a bigger sword to be still effective.

Try hurting anyone by hitting them with a feather if you dont get the problem.

I prefer the strength requirement. It reflects quite realistically what it is like in reality.

I'm not exactly sure what you're saying here, but if it's what I think you're saying, you're wrong.

(referring to real life, though this should apply to in-game as well):
1.  Greater strength = greater speed w/ other variables remaining constant
2.  Greater speed of weapon = potential for greater damage (or in game, faster attacks per unit time, adding up to more damage overall)

Being stronger would not require a "bigger sword to be effective."  Getting stronger, swinging faster, in real life, would make the damage go UP.  (Getting stronger doesn't make the weapon somehow get "lighter" or weaker to the target).

In the game, damage might not go up from greater speed, but at least you would get more frequent attacks, which would add up to more damage overall. (and would look FAR more realistic than having a hulking strong fighter look like he can still barely lift a weapon exactly as he could 20 Str points ago)

[Hurrpdurrp]

Gecon wrote...

YR_Lim wrote...

Loetek wrote...

The only thing I would ask for is:
The lower your str = the slower you swing
The higher your str = the faster you swing

Yes that would make sense, if the warrior is strong enough... the weapon would be like wielding a feather.

Which in turn would mean they need a bigger sword to be still effective.

Try hurting anyone by hitting them with a feather if you dont get the problem.

I prefer the strength requirement. It reflects quite realistically what it is like in reality.

I think the speed of the 2h weapons would be fine, if we got some new talents and abit more scaling.

Btw, just because it feels like a feather for the wielder doesn't mean it hurts less for the one getting hit, The weight doesn't disappear. The only thing that changes is how much more power the swinger has to give. :happy:

[Ghandorian]

or running up to a Emissary, pommel strike, massive blow, Warcry, auto hit, massive sweep, auto hit, pommel strike, auto hit . . loot.



Once you have a decent rune in your weapon That will equal one dead yellow that never gets off a spell solo. I completed a play-through with a 2h and they are probably the most fun class to play for people that like full on combat.

[Dark83]

menasure wrote...

Beertastic wrote...

....

You do realize STR affects hit rate the same as DEX does right? You don't need to put ANY points in DEX unless you are a tank (18 to get Disengage, if you want it).

My 2H warrior that I finished the game with has 70 STR, 28 Willpower, and 18 DEX with a 91% hit rate.

of course i did not know that, this is the first game i encounter which treats dex about the same as strength ... flawed principle which leads to this kind of weird situations if you ask me

Reading the tooltips would help.

(Also, D&D and D20 systems all use this. TES doesn't. So you never played Baldur's Gate, Icewind Dale, Neverwinter Nights, or any of those?)

[Selvec_Darkon]

Precise Strike + Powerful Swings (&Upgrades) + Beserk (&Upgrades)+ High Will

End game.

Precise Strike counteracts Power Swings and Beserks Attack decrease. The upgrades also help counteract the hit rate. Powerful Swings and Beserk's damage bonuses destroys the negative from precise strikes, allowing for some nice damage while still hitting plenty of times. High will allows use of 2h abilities in rapid succession, allowing for even more damage as well as status effects. Mighty Blow and 2h Sweep being the big abilities.

Edit:

I'd alos like to say most of you claiming the duel weapons thing is better are probably using the leathlity cunning max build. Let me be clear here, that's a broken build. Once the dex is fixed up, leathlity and cunning won't be as powerful, meaning the DPS won't be as ridiculous. This also means the 2h and duel lines will even out as far as damage goes.

Modifié par Selvec_Darkon, 27 novembre 2009 - 04:07 .

[Seifz]

Grovermancer wrote...

Gecon wrote...

YR_Lim wrote...

Loetek wrote...

The only thing I would ask for is:
The lower your str = the slower you swing
The higher your str = the faster you swing

Yes that would make sense, if the warrior is strong enough... the weapon would be like wielding a feather.

Which in turn would mean they need a bigger sword to be still effective.

Try hurting anyone by hitting them with a feather if you dont get the problem.

I prefer the strength requirement. It reflects quite realistically what it is like in reality.

I'm not exactly sure what you're saying here, but if it's what I think you're saying, you're wrong.

(referring to real life, though this should apply to in-game as well):
1.  Greater strength = greater speed w/ other variables remaining constant
2.  Greater speed of weapon = potential for greater damage (or in game, faster attacks per unit time, adding up to more damage overall)

Being stronger would not require a "bigger sword to be effective."  Getting stronger, swinging faster, in real life, would make the damage go UP.  (Getting stronger doesn't make the weapon somehow get "lighter" or weaker to the target).

In the game, damage might not go up from greater speed, but at least you would get more frequent attacks, which would add up to more damage overall. (and would look FAR more realistic than having a hulking strong fighter look like he can still barely lift a weapon exactly as he could 20 Str points ago)

Yeah... the whole point here is "w/ other variables remaining constant."  Thing is, they shouldn't be constant.  You should be finding new weapons and using them.  These new weapons require greater strength to wield, and they deal more damage.  In addition, the damage of a particular weapon increases with strength anyway because of the strength modifier on the weapon!  The idea is that you inflict more pain with each swing, not that you swing faster.  Swinging faster would just be silly.  If you want to swing faster, go wield some 1H weapons.  Don't ruin my 2H style!

Anyway, 2H Warriors are just fine.  Check out Loktar.  He's only level 18 and I haven't finished the game yet, but he's already sitting at 62 Strength and 22 Willpower before gear.  That'll be 64/26 by level 20, and 70/35 by level 25.  He's got an 87% hit rating, which isn't at all bad, a ton of stamina, and only ~5% fatigue with Wade's Superior armor (heavy, not massive).  Automatic sunder armor, automatic stuns, on-demand knockbacks, immunity to stuns and knockbacks, on-demand critical strikes, off-tanking as required, great defenses, an ability that knocks all surrounding enemies to the ground...  What's not to love?  He's ~40% of the party damage, too, and I rarely control him in battle since Morrigan tends to waste mana when I'm not paying attention to her.

What's not to love about that?

Modifié par Seifz, 27 novembre 2009 - 04:12 .

[grymstone]

In my limited experience starting out with a two hander felt flawed simply because there was no origins that favored them so from a min/ maxer perspective they start off kind of gimped.

The attack speed issue was overcome with haste aura once you get that things become easier to stomach. I never tried a high will build though and I have to say you probably would not need high will if the stamina after kill talent (deathblow) was buffed up significantly.

I am at the point now with the game where i am playing through on nightmare and trying to make the most abusive melee combination I can and Sten continues to be simply awful compared to a rogue. Oghren slightly better.

[Brunopolis]

Seifz wrote...

Mordigan wrote...

Yeah 2H style sucks, but there are mods out there that can easily rectify the situation.

Here's the one that I use:

http://social.biowar...ct/852/#details

If you don't want the archery fix, just click on files and download the 2H fix separately.

That's just a huge list of buffs.  Sounds like "easier than easy mode" to me.

They could double those buffs and it wouldn't come close to a mages power.  Easy mode is using mages in this game.  Cone of Cold, Fireball, and Blood Wound are the definitions of easy mode.

[Grovermancer]

Seifz wrote...


Yeah... the whole point here is "w/ other variables remaining constant."  Thing is, they shouldn't be constant.  You should be finding new weapons and using them.  These new weapons require greater strength to wield, and they deal more damage.  In addition, the damage of a particular weapon increases with strength anyway because of the strength modifier on the weapon!  The idea is that you inflict more pain with each swing, not that you swing faster.  Swinging faster would just be silly.  If you want to swing faster, go wield some 1H weapons.  Don't ruin my 2H style!

How much heavier is one maul from another?  One great sword from another?

Saying it's "silly" is your opinion.  In real life, strength = speed, and the stronger you are, the faster (and more damage) you will do with large-body motions (ie, swinging 2-H weapons).

In the game, a faster swing wouldn't calculate to more damage per hit, but it would mean more swings per "round," thus you would get more damage overall.

Also, for a pure visual effect, when you get stronger you still shouldn't look like you can barely lift the weapon.

So how much heavier would the more powerful weapons be?  A few more pounds?  Hell, even big great swords are only 7 or 8lbs TOTAL.  A slightly bigger sword would at most, be maybe a pound more (if that). 

Anyway, 2H Warriors are just fine.  Check out Loktar.  He's only level 18 and I haven't finished the game yet, but he's already sitting at 62 Strength and 22 Willpower before gear.  That'll be 64/26 by level 20, and 70/35 by level 25.  He's got an 87% hit rating, which isn't at all bad, a ton of stamina, and only ~5% fatigue with Wade's Superior armor (heavy, not massive).  Automatic sunder armor, automatic stuns, on-demand knockbacks, immunity to stuns and knockbacks, on-demand critical strikes, off-tanking as required, great defenses, an ability that knocks all surrounding enemies to the ground...  What's not to love?  He's ~40% of the party damage, too, and I rarely control him in battle since Morrigan tends to waste mana when I'm not paying attention to her.

What's not to love about that?

Again, you saying they're "just fine" is your opinion. 

My favorite play-through was a 2-H Dwarf Zerker w/ Chasind Maul.  But if I could change anything, it would be the speed issue, even if only for the visual change it would bring.

[Seifz]

Grovermancer wrote...

Seifz wrote...

Yeah... the whole point here is "w/ other variables remaining constant."  Thing is, they shouldn't be constant.  You should be finding new weapons and using them.  These new weapons require greater strength to wield, and they deal more damage.  In addition, the damage of a particular weapon increases with strength anyway because of the strength modifier on the weapon!  The idea is that you inflict more pain with each swing, not that you swing faster.  Swinging faster would just be silly.  If you want to swing faster, go wield some 1H weapons.  Don't ruin my 2H style!

How much heavier is one maul from another?  One great sword from another?

Saying it's "silly" is your opinion.  In real life, strength = speed, and the stronger you are, the faster (and more damage) you will do with large-body motions (ie, swinging 2-H weapons).

This isn't real life!  It's a fantasy game!  Why do some armors require a certain Dexterity rating?  The point is that you're getting more powerful weapons for that increased strength, both in their base DPS and in their stats.

In the game, a faster swing wouldn't calculate to more damage per hit, but it would mean more swings per "round," thus you would get more damage overall.

But again, you're already getting much more damage by upgrading your weapons and increasing your strength!  Increasing the swing speed isn't necessary and it doesn't make any sense!

The point is that 2H Warriors don't need buffs.  Their damage and utility is fantastic.

[F-C]

i find this thread rather enlightening as it proves what ive been saying for some time, that most people are making their melee classes wrong, then blame bioware for it.

georg has told people to stack more willpower and the wowhead min/max people just flamed on and on about how terrible it was and how melee was awful.

now a moderator is telling you how to do it even with numbers...

i wonder if people will ever get it.

Modifié par F-C, 27 novembre 2009 - 05:48 .

[Ghandorian]

F-C wrote...

i find this thread rather enlightening as it proves what ive been saying for some time, that most people are making their melee classes wrong, then blame bioware for it.

georg has told people to stack more willpower and the wowhead min/max people just flamed on and on about how terrible it was and how melee was awful.

now a moderator is telling you how to do it even with numbers...

i wonder if people will ever get it.

no i think they will load up mods that make everything simple for them. If thats the way they want to play thats fair but saying things are broken and totally unbalanced is as simple minded as the "why does my character stand still threads"

I played the heck out of this game with Ruddy the 2h warrior. He was fantastic to play.

[Grovermancer]

I did quite fine w/ my 2-H Dwarf Zerker, thank you! ((spoiler pic))

Even if it didn't change one single stat, I think it would look a little better if, as Str increased, so did swing-speed.

[adam_nox]

sten swings a 2 hander much faster than my elf did. It was definitely NOT my imagination.

[Seifz]

adam_nox wrote...

sten swings a 2 hander much faster than my elf did. It was definitely NOT my imagination.

Do you think you could get some numbers for us?  Maybe hits/minute, or something?  I know it's a bit tough to test in a game like this, but it'd be nice to have this information!

[menasure]

F-C wrote...

i find this thread rather enlightening as it proves what ive been saying for some time, that most people are making their melee classes wrong, then blame bioware for it.

georg has told people to stack more willpower and the wowhead min/max people just flamed on and on about how terrible it was and how melee was awful.

now a moderator is telling you how to do it even with numbers...

i wonder if people will ever get it.

there is just no decent info about it anywhere in game or in the manual. you can only build a character "wright" -an idea i actually do not like by itself that there is such a thing because it means the system is inflexible- if you know what those stats and effects do.

[Murdario]

2handers talents are pretty much worthless. the few that are actually usefull have a ridiculously long cool down time. a mage can shoot like 5 cones of cold while my 2hander recharges his sweep ability. at higher levels power/crit attacks sometimes actually do less damage than a regular hit.

[F-C]

menasure wrote...

F-C wrote...

i find this thread rather enlightening as it proves what ive been saying for some time, that most people are making their melee classes wrong, then blame bioware for it.

georg has told people to stack more willpower and the wowhead min/max people just flamed on and on about how terrible it was and how melee was awful.

now a moderator is telling you how to do it even with numbers...

i wonder if people will ever get it.

there is just no decent info about it anywhere in game or in the manual. you can only build a character "wright" -an idea i actually do not like by itself that there is such a thing because it means the system is inflexible- if you know what those stats and effects do.

when you hover your mouse over willpower it says it will give you more stamina. i dont see how thats misleading in any way.

the fact is most people have been playing other games where you would simply stack str, dex, and some con and never have to worry about stamina. it just comes naturally and you dont need to worry about it.

DAO is not designed that way, its made to where you actively need to invest points into increasing your stamina pool so you can be an effective melee. this is completly foreign to most people and they just automatically blame bioware for making a broken game.

i guess you could argue they should have made the game more dumbed down to where it was harder to build a melee wrong and attached stamina to str or con so people could just brainlessly build their melee characters and still be great.

the main difference i see between mages and melee in this game is the section that you have to get right in order to make the character good. with a mage your stat allocation is quite simple, but you have a vast array of spells to choose from and making poor spell choices will lead to having a poor mage. while with a melee you have a limited talent selection making that part fairly easy, but your stat allocation is more difficult to get right and a poor stat allocation will lead to a poor melee class.

if you want to argue they should have dumbed the game down for melee classes, you can if you want to, but i see all the classes facing the same hard choices, just in different areas.

Modifié par F-C, 27 novembre 2009 - 07:43 .

[thisisme8]

F-C wrote...

menasure wrote...

F-C wrote...

i find this thread rather enlightening as it proves what ive been saying for some time, that most people are making their melee classes wrong, then blame bioware for it.

georg has told people to stack more willpower and the wowhead min/max people just flamed on and on about how terrible it was and how melee was awful.

now a moderator is telling you how to do it even with numbers...

i wonder if people will ever get it.

there is just no decent info about it anywhere in game or in the manual. you can only build a character "wright" -an idea i actually do not like by itself that there is such a thing because it means the system is inflexible- if you know what those stats and effects do.

when you hover your mouse over willpower it says it will give you more stamina. i dont see how thats misleading in any way.

the fact is most people have been playing other games where you would simply stack str, dex, and some con and never have to worry about stamina. it just comes naturally and you dont need to worry about it.

DAO is not designed that way, its made to where you actively need to invest points into increasing your stamina pool so you can be an effective melee. this is completly foreign to most people and they just automatically blame bioware for making a broken game.

i guess you could argue they should have made the game more dumbed down to where it was harder to build a melee wrong and attached stamina to str or con so people could just brainlessly build their melee characters and still be great.

the main difference i see between mages and melee in this game is the section that you have to get right in order to make the character good. with a mage your stat allocation is quite simple, but you have a vast array of spells to choose from and making poor spell choices will lead to having a poor mage. while with a melee you have a limited talent selection making that part fairly easy, but your stat allocation is more difficult to get right and a poor stat allocation will lead to a poor melee class.

if you want to argue they should have dumbed the game down for melee classes, you can if you want to, but i see all the classes facing the same hard choices, just in different areas.

Anyone remember playing PnP RPG's in the 80's and 90's?  You could not get away with creating a Mage-like  with just "Willpower" and "Magic" stats.  You would be too dumb to learn any spells, let alone talk to anyone (aside from yourself).

I keep that same thing in mind when creating a character in DA:O.  Makes for an appropriate challenge, yet grants tons of other benefits, and I'm happy to know that my Human Noble can put sentences together.  Oh, and a mage can actually pass a reflex save -or whatever we have in the DA:O system.

[SirSick]

F-C wrote...

i find this thread rather enlightening as it proves what ive been saying for some time, that most people are making their melee classes wrong, then blame bioware for it.

georg has told people to stack more willpower and the wowhead min/max people just flamed on and on about how terrible it was and how melee was awful.

now a moderator is telling you how to do it even with numbers...

i wonder if people will ever get it.

What I wonder about in this tread, is why there was such an emphasis put on people being stupid while putting points and thus being resonsible for creating weak characters while other people (like me) are noting various other issues with the 2 handed style in general and with the exception of "more strength should equal faster swing speed",  almost no one seems to care about them.

Even the point I tried to bring up that there are serious shortcomings in informing the player about the hidden but needed inofrmation of a weapon, stat and / or effect. Specially when trying to create a good char, the player needs to be given enough FACTS ingame so he would n't fall into "noob traps" while making it.

Because the moment he or she NEEDS to look up info on this forum, a wiki or a wowhead kind of site to just to know what hidden stats there are in order to make a good char ... thats not  "a nice challenge" for people new to the genre of Bioware games. It is however, just a sad reminder of an invisible wall seperating the determined who will get to be as kick ass as much they wish and the others ... who simply wont and (heaven forbid) might be called noobs for not knowing "the obvious".

Modifié par SirSick, 28 novembre 2009 - 11:22 .

[Vicious]

2 Hand sweep knocks enemies down and you either stand still and wait for them to get up or you pick an enemy and try to kill him as he gets up.

vs.

DualWield whirlwind and hitting TWICE and if you have Precise Striking Possibly crit TWICE [for each weapon] for EACH opponent in melee range, and if they survive that, kill 3-4 more in an instant with your dual wield sweep [which is a large 90 degree angle]

And this is paramount in a game like DAO which LOVES throwing large amounts of enemies at you.


OK that said Dual Wield is ridiculously powerful. Which makes sense seeing as how it's the most utterly unrealistic weapon choice.


Why spam points into Willpower? Download the respec mod and rectify your mistake as a dual wield god. You don't HAVE to have a high willpower, all you need is every skill from the set and you've got all the tools you need!  Also if you like the fancy 'prestige kills' with the cool animations - Dual Wield the most brutal one. [Stab-Decapitate]

Modifié par Vicious, 28 novembre 2009 - 11:14 .

[Sirsmirkalot]

What I wonder about in this tread, is why there was such an emphasis
put on people being stupid while putting points and thus being
resonsible for creating weak characters while other people (like me)
are noting various other issues with the 2 handed style in general and
with the exception of "more strength should equal faster swing speed", 
no one seems to care about those points.

Even the point I
tried to bring up that there are serious shortcomings in informing the
player about the hidden but needed inofrmation  of a weapon, stat and /
or effect. Specially when trying to create a good char, the player
needs to be given enough FACTS ingame so he would n't fall into "noob
traps" while making it.

Because the moment he or she NEEDS to
look up info on this forum, a wiki or a wowhead kind of site to just to
know what hidden stats there are in order to make a good char ... thats
not "nice challenge" for people new to the genre of Bioware games, its
just sad reminder of an invisible wall seperating the determined who
get to be as kick ass as they wish and the others ...

The only real "hidden info" that I find is that the tooltip of "sunder arms" and "sunder armor" doesn't mention anything about the extra attack. Stat wise, all people need to do is hover with their mouse over the actual stats on their character screen to see the effects of each stat on their chars.

Unless you want to talk about archers, then I'll agree with you.

Modifié par Sirsmirkalot, 28 novembre 2009 - 11:21 .

[Arcane Fury]

You know what's funny? In real life a two-handed sword isn't that heavy. RPGs always make out two-handers as enormously heavy. The exaggerated slowness is just silly in this game.

[SirSick]

Sirsmirkalot wrote...

What I wonder about in this tread, is why there was such an emphasis
put on people being stupid while putting points and thus being
resonsible for creating weak characters while other people (like me)
are noting various other issues with the 2 handed style in general and
with the exception of "more strength should equal faster swing speed", 
no one seems to care about those points.

Even the point I
tried to bring up that there are serious shortcomings in informing the
player about the hidden but needed inofrmation  of a weapon, stat and /
or effect. Specially when trying to create a good char, the player
needs to be given enough FACTS ingame so he would n't fall into "noob
traps" while making it.

Because the moment he or she NEEDS to
look up info on this forum, a wiki or a wowhead kind of site to just to
know what hidden stats there are in order to make a good char ... thats
not "nice challenge" for people new to the genre of Bioware games, its
just sad reminder of an invisible wall seperating the determined who
get to be as kick ass as they wish and the others ...

The only real "hidden info" that I find is that the tooltip of "sunder arms" and "sunder armor" doesn't mention anything about the extra attack. Stat wise, all people need to do is hover with their mouse over the actual stats on their character screen to see the effects of each stat on their chars.

Unless you want to talk about archers, then I'll agree with you.

The fact you can already concede the archers says enough .. I mean all the info you need including EXACT and DETAILED descriptions in game on the above mentioned ARE NOT LUXERIES, they are nessesities!