62 réponses à ce sujet

[Dark83]

DonkeyBarf wrote...

Dark83 wrote...

DonkeyBarf wrote...

Oh I expect there's something else plot driven eventually.  But since you've conquered the game and I am several hundred hours away from that, is each random encounter scaled all the time? 

Dragon Age: Origins - The Missing Manual >> Challenge Scaling

Right, but that deals primarily with area encounters, not the random encounters between areas.  Or I just missed the part in that article where it deals with random encounters.

I'm pointing more at the level min/max bounds. As far as I know, there shouldn't be level 24 bandits, but I could be wrong.

[DonkeyBarf]

Selvec_Darkon wrote...

DonkeyBarf wrote...

Selvec_Darkon wrote...

So basically the whole post can be brought down to a gripe with "Level Up" as the term used for character improvement.

If it was replaced by "Your character won't chop off his own arms anymore", then you'd be happier with it?

Erm... no.  You may have misunderstood my story.  My aim is not to grip about character advancement.  It's an embellished comment on how I perceive the game due to scaling.  A lot of games scale - it's the new drug - but that can kill the immersion a little.  That's if you like being immersed at all, you may play the game just for a level grind and that's fine too.

Given the kinda game DA:O is, it wouldn't suit to have a system like Gothic (Which is what you seem to want). As the hero, who is meant to be a badass warrior who is above even the elites of his house/family etc etc, shouldn't be getting his butt handed to him by bandit number five. However, in saying this, should he be automatically able to hand the bat to the ass of any creature, the game would be frightfully boring, and frankely not worth playing, be the equilivent to a multi-choice book adventure. Turn to page 38 to face loghain.

Scaling suits the game. Now if we were to watch the training of this hero from holding a sword for the first time, to killing his first dragon. Then yes, I'd agree a non-scaling system would be preferable, but we are not. That's what we have Risen for.

No.  You as well have missed what I'm getting at.  This guy had the best line to sum up my initial little story:

DonkeyBarf wrote...

MGeezer wrote...

...Again this is not a difficulty issue, but an issues of what is difficult...

End Rant.

Dead on!!!!  Nail on the head etc.!  I think you summed up how I ended up feeling after that battle right there.  Very well put.

You've gone off the beaten path of my post.  This is not a post about being powerful and smiting large armies alone; I can't stress that enough and several people have brought that up already.  This is about immersion and believability, that's why I've come up with the story; a warping of the small little details that cause the game to break my immersion stiched back into a tale that tells how those details made me feel.

Believability centered around that if the general populace that I fight in random encounters are never more powerful nor weaker than my party, ever, then the logical conclusion is that all able bandits, warriors and spiders in Fereldon are approximately my level, all the time. (Albiet the apparent level caps in place mentioned by a previous poster)

[DonkeyBarf]

Dark83 wrote...

DonkeyBarf wrote...

Dark83 wrote...

DonkeyBarf wrote...

Oh I expect there's something else plot driven eventually.  But since you've conquered the game and I am several hundred hours away from that, is each random encounter scaled all the time? 

Dragon Age: Origins - The Missing Manual >> Challenge Scaling

Right, but that deals primarily with area encounters, not the random encounters between areas.  Or I just missed the part in that article where it deals with random encounters.

I'm pointing more at the level min/max bounds. As far as I know, there shouldn't be level 24 bandits, but I could be wrong.

Well I won't know for another hundred hours or so lol.  My little gripe is not going to hold me back from playing the game after all, it's just meant as an observation.  I figure once I hit level 18 I'll know for sure  Maybe the bandits cap at 14 or so, still would seem a little high for a desperate troupe of ill equipped robbers.  I'd expect level 14 bandits to pretty much be bounty hunters, assassins or a mercenary posse at that point.  That's make more sense

Thanks for that link btw.  Will read more when I have time.

[Kimberly Shaw]

At least bandits aren't wearing glass armor and swords when you're level 20! ;-)



I'm not so much a fan of scaling either, OP. I don't know why its become so popular among designers or that the alternative is to make a game linear. Oblivion had scaling (at its worst) and was totally non-linear, which kind of negates that arguement. Maybe I'm still old school, but I loved the original Pool of Radiance Gold box game...or Ultima 5...Bard's Tale...*sigh*, did those games scale? No. Were they any less linear than DA:O? Not really, no. So why the push for scaling.



I can handle scaling when its well done though, and DA:O is infinitely better than Oblivion scaling.



I just REALLY hate item scaling when it comes to legendary / artifact style weapons/armor. That's the worst part because if you do come across something really strong in legends at a low level it punishes you for finding it early by making it weaker than store bought gear at later levels. That's always wrong, and gear should either level up with you (which makes little sense) or should be amazing no matter when you find it, hence why its legendary.



/end rant

[Viglin]

Nods to the Op for reminding many of us this is an RPG, not an action fest game only. The Devs may have a job for you too:).



And yes lm not much for scaling either, thou l thought l read the was a level range for foes?



And l laughed at the glass armor post above lol

Anyone want to start for the 20th time in a jail cell that is also a royal escape route???

[Dark83]

Well, the thing about leveling...

The scaling actually works better in a "realistic/immersion" sense, in that you don't become ridiculously powerful.

Consider that, over the period of maybe a year, in D&D you go from twirp getting kicked around by kobolds to ripping up dragons.

In DA:O, the advancement is more subtle. We get tiny incremental increases to our damage, 3 attribute points (so good for about 0.5 damage or 5 health/fatigue), roughly 5 health/mana - barely half that of a standard smack with a good sword. The biggest thing we get is new tricks and tactics - talents.

So compared to the random bandits, you've learned more tricks, and you'll have better equipment, but you haven't become a demigod. You're still just a dude fighting other dudes, essentially.

[Kaosgirl]

Bloodseeker2009 wrote...

Loetek wrote...

DaeFaron wrote...

I think he is mad about random encounters which wipe his party?

So instead of just saying:
"Damn yo... them bandits be takin it to my ass!"
He instead tries getting all Shakespearish and makes zero sense in the mean time? Brilliant...

Can you not see how someone is taking a small piece from this rpg game and turning it into a story? If such writings such as this 'confuse' you, perhaps you should pay closer attention in English class.

Or stick to gaming genres that don't draw in the RP Lit nerds. 

[DonkeyBarf]

Kimberly Shaw wrote...

...Maybe I'm still old school, but I loved the original Pool of Radiance Gold box game...or Ultima 5...Bard's Tale...*sigh*, did those games scale? No. Were they any less linear than DA:O? Not really, no. So why the push for scaling...

Yes you are But then so am I!  I think there's nothing terribly wrong with scaling except that the design can be improved on instead of being recycled in every game we see.  There should be a random weak and near death experiences in addition to the consistent challenging encounters as well.  It's perhaps the design that is killing it for me and I'm not just talking about Bioware but all devs.  When I leave an area I feel like I know that around the corner there's going to be 6 normal enemies and a yellow one.  A formula mass produced by mmo's.  I'd like a little more unexpectedness like an odd easy battle and the odd one where the enemy shows you exactly what your butt looks like.

Also once I beat this game the first time I'm sure my second play through will be based on the various other characters I'll need for my second journey.  So I'll go from area A to B to C in a linear fashion anyway.  So whether the game was developed to railroad me to get a healer first or not, I'll still end up seeking out a healer first.

Dark83 wrote...

...So compared to the random bandits, you've learned more tricks, and you'll have better equipment, but you haven't become a demigod...

True, but they too have been granted those little increases in health and damage.  In the case of that story the archers were drilling me for 30 damage a shot.

Viglin wrote...

Nods to the Op for reminding many of us this is an RPG, not an action fest game only. The Devs may have a job for you too:).

TY - What's my new job now? 

Kaosgirl wrote...

Or stick to gaming genres that don't draw in the RP Lit nerds.

I'm a computer nerd thank you!  If I were a literature buff I'd include foreshadowing in my little story - and a romance segment - and I probably wouldn't name myself DonkeyBarf publicly instead choosing something witty and stylish.

[Kimberly Shaw]

Donkeybarf (ugh at that name lol) what's your thought on item scaling? I am surprised there hasn't been as much backlash about it, I guess because of the vendor trick to "level" the items up to get around it. I'm much more okay with bandit scaling than I am with say, my Sword of Godly Legends with Codex entry being much weaker than a sword dropped by a random poor street thug just because I found the sword at level 7 (due to scaling content) and fought the street thug at level 17.



This is akin to the glass armor on the bandits problem with Oblivion. Drives me mental.

[orpheus333]

DonkeyBarf has biblical relevance at least.

[Aether99]

DonkeyBarf wrote...

Loetek wrote...

What the **** are you talking about?

lol A long winded way of saying scaling, not game difficulty, how every battle is scaled.  It just kills it for me when every random encounter has creatures that are about as powerful as I am.  It just makes me think, what's the point?  Ferelden's people can this on their own

It makes sense though.  In real life a group of bandits would be hard to deal with.  Even with a well armored and trained group. 

I dont want it to be like world of warcraft where at max level you can solo a low level (but still gigantic) dragon.  I dont care what level you are....it can pick you up and EAT YOU.

So...really...I do enjoy level scaling.  I even enjoy the seemingly very hard random encounters.  A pack of wolves desperate enough to attack a group of armed men are going to be dangerous.  Maybe even moreso if your not experienced in fighting something like wolves.

I disagree that progression should mean things scale in difficulty.  Thats not how a world actually works.  Depending where you are, and how lucky/unlucky you are affects the difficulty in a encounter.  Just because im a low level doesnt mean I shouldnt run into something hard.

but this is all my opinion

[DonkeyBarf]

Kimberly Shaw wrote...

Donkeybarf (ugh at that name lol) what's your thought on item scaling? I am surprised there hasn't been as much backlash about it, I guess because of the vendor trick to "level" the items up to get around it. I'm much more okay with bandit scaling than I am with say, my Sword of Godly Legends with Codex entry being much weaker than a sword dropped by a random poor street thug just because I found the sword at level 7 (due to scaling content) and fought the street thug at level 17.

This is akin to the glass armor on the bandits problem with Oblivion. Drives me mental.

Personally I like weapons that have a neat little back story on them and set as static powerful (or not so powerful) based on its lineage.  Scaled loot might as well go the whole Diablo clone style approach.  Like you said finding a sword with that name and cool back story then gimped simply because you found it early is just nasty.  I would prefer a system which is a mix of scaled and static loot.  If you manage to find a godlike sword to early it is simply restricted by level.  If the item is a generic "dagger of veridium/iron" scaling it isn't too big of a deal.

I ditched Oblivion very quickly because of the item scaling.  For me that was an utter waste of money...

Aether99 wrote...

It makes sense though.  In real life a group of bandits would be hard to deal with.  Even with a well armored and trained group.  

I dont want it to be like world of warcraft where at max level you can solo a low level (but still gigantic) dragon.  I dont care what level you are....it can pick you up and EAT YOU.

So...really...I do enjoy level scaling.  I even enjoy the seemingly very hard random encounters.  A pack of wolves desperate enough to attack a group of armed men are going to be dangerous.  Maybe even moreso if your not experienced in fighting something like wolves.

I disagree that progression should mean things scale in difficulty.  Thats not how a world actually works.  Depending where you are, and how lucky/unlucky you are affects the difficulty in a encounter.  Just because im a low level doesnt mean I shouldnt run into something hard.

but this is all my opinion

I want to reply in full but I'm pressed for time so I'll try to remember to answer later  In short though if scaling is good for your play style then I think that's great!  And I agree that some creatures, like dragons, should be able to eat you  But wolves for instance attacking a fully plate armored knight would probably just tickle!

The great thing is that there will eventually be mods for everything

[Aether99]

Have you ever seen a wolf up close? Im betting a group wont have trouble with a bunch of armor.