Now without mentioning anything but the narritive tell why Dragon age origins was better than Dragon age 2.
From what i just played through with Origins i have never been so pissed off with the way a game's narritive was presented in my entire life.
I'll keep this simple, if i write paragraphs people might get scared and run away like routed peasants.
My complaints
1. The introduction to every race is rushed and there is never enough time to know the characters you were with or give 2 dimes about anything they did. (Ie Human noble, Basically get introduced to family and 10 minutes later they're dead.)
2. The Darkspawn are basically Mordor orc look alikes and are effectively braindead. What do i mean by braindead you ask? Well after the sacking of Lothering you'd think the Dark spawn and its blight would just start steam rolling over the majority of Fereldon. But for some reason the Dark spawn are either too slow or are effectively braindead and can't come to realise that nothing is stopping them from sacking Redcliff since it would be the obvious target for an assault. It would give them a staging ground as they would then advance to sack the mages tower and then Orzimmar. I say this because everyone in each region is either divided into feudes amongst themselves or is combating some problem in the area. Seriously why didn't the Dark spawn just have a non stop march and sack the majority of Fereldon? The only city with any real chance at survial is Denerirm.
3. As much as Logain's plan might make sense he clearly doesn't remember the part where it explains that only grey wardens can kill the archdemon. What was he so full of himself that he beleived that he was the only one possible for the job? Either way the segment in the game where he puts a bounty on you doesn't make any sense when everyone knows that only a grey warden can end the blight.?
4. The Arch demon. The best way to describe this thing is to call it a idiot who suffers from Sauron sydrome. This is a trait that an antagonist in this type of story possesses when they sit on their ass for the whole game and don't emerge until the end of the game for the final fight. It would of helped if the arch demon was a character. But sadly it isn't. And this creates yet another plot hole. How can something with clearly no sentient mind of any description control an army of mindless drones? The Arch demon does not once speak or do anything but roar like a monster. If the answer to this question is its magic then i will just ignore it because that is an A$inine excuse for a rated M game
5. The fact that this is rated M. From my understanding other rated t games have had as much blood or more than DAO. So why is it rated M? what because of the scenes where you bang the stool/intrest. It probably is but this is just angering.
6. Retreading on points from #2, #3 and #4, The narritive of this game basically boils down to you getting the treaties from the areas around the map. While doing this you'd think that the darkspawn would be fast on your tracks right? Well no. For what ever reason the Dark spawn just camp in the ruins of Lothering while Gathering the treaties from everyone. Why they didn't sack Redcliff is beyond me. I guess a Wizard did it. As i said in point 2 why the Arch demon didn't capitolize on the disarray of the country was beyond me. So are the Darkspawn just mindless monsters with no semblence of intelligence? Well that doesn't work because the Dark spawn can obviously craft weapons and armor to go into battle with. They have Alphas who act as Generals in a sense so they have to have some form of intelligence right?
7. The player character feels disjointed and removed from the plot. What i mean by this is that the player character acts as nothing more as a mirror for the player to click a dialogue option. The player character never once has any opportunity to grow or change at all or become stronger as a person. Minor i guess since most bioware games don't do it and i don't hold it against them most of the time. But with this game i need some redeeming factor here.
8. Since the Dark Spawn are effectively camping for most of the game we never see them do anything malicious or any moment where they do something to show how twisted they are. After Ostagar we don't see the darkspawn in the plot again until the deeproads in Orzimmar and Denerim for the final battle.
9. Speaking of the final battle why does the arch demon even show up at all? the darkspawn are clearly mowing down everyone and the numbers just pour in like rabbits. When the Archdemon does finally show up he dies in a boss fight and all the Darkspawn retreat completely oblvious to the world around them like the Orcs did from lord of the rings at the end.
10. Magic is no excuse for plot holes.
alright tell me what you think. i am curious
Why does everyone love Dragon age Origins so much?
Débuté par
Mallgore
, mars 11 2012 02:52
Retour en haut
#2
Posté 11 mars 2012 - 04:10
EmperorSahlertz
-
- Members
- 8 809 messages
1: Highly subjective. A lot of people gave high praises to the origin stories. You apprently didn't like them, but that is your beef, and not detrimental to the game.
2: The Blights are events that spans centuries at a time, and the one in DA:O barely even got off the staging process. Not to mention that the Blight had engulfed almost half of Ferelden by the end of the game.....
3: NO ONE but the Grey Wardens knows exactly why only Grey Wardens can defeat the Blight. Loghain believed it to be exaggeration from teh Grey Wardens. Not to mention that he didn't even believe it was a Blight at all. That you fail to understand what is going on in the story, is not detrimental to the game...
4: Again, the Blight had barely even begun, and the Darkspawn was still amassing their forces for much of the initial phases of the game. Furthermore, as I already mentioned, the Blight did consumehalf of Ferelden. And you are forgetting that there were still armies to oppose the Darkspawn, even though there was a civil war going on.
5: ESRB ratings havn't mattered since the day of their conception. Nor is it even the games' "fault", but rather whatever stuck up soccer mom invented the rating system.
6: They didn't sack Redcliffe because it is the second mightiest fortress in all of ferelden, only surpassed by Denerim itself. And again, the Darkspawn didn't "camp in Lothering" but spread across all of Ferelden. You really didn't notice all the black corruption seeping across your quick-travel map? THAT was the extension of the Darkspawn blight.
7: The player character in DA:O is what you make of him. While true, he can at time feel more disconnected from the story than Hawke, becasue of the lack of a voice. Most roleplayers are able to overcome this.
8: There are several encounters that show plenty of how twisted the Darkspawn are. You really havn't been paying attention at all if you can't remember any.... Like say for example, the description of the creation process of Broodmothers. Or how they mutilate and desecrate the corpses of the dead at Ostagar.
9: The Archdemon is like a nexus to the Darkspawn. WHile it holds a certain amount of influecne over all Darkspawn everywhere, only the ones in its vicinity benefits fully from this. Or any other explanation really. Like say, being the general at the field, or simly becasue it was hungry. There are literally hundreds of different explanations as to why the Archdemon chose to participate in the assault on Denerim.
10: Nor are they trying to use magic as an excusea t any time..
2: The Blights are events that spans centuries at a time, and the one in DA:O barely even got off the staging process. Not to mention that the Blight had engulfed almost half of Ferelden by the end of the game.....
3: NO ONE but the Grey Wardens knows exactly why only Grey Wardens can defeat the Blight. Loghain believed it to be exaggeration from teh Grey Wardens. Not to mention that he didn't even believe it was a Blight at all. That you fail to understand what is going on in the story, is not detrimental to the game...
4: Again, the Blight had barely even begun, and the Darkspawn was still amassing their forces for much of the initial phases of the game. Furthermore, as I already mentioned, the Blight did consumehalf of Ferelden. And you are forgetting that there were still armies to oppose the Darkspawn, even though there was a civil war going on.
5: ESRB ratings havn't mattered since the day of their conception. Nor is it even the games' "fault", but rather whatever stuck up soccer mom invented the rating system.
6: They didn't sack Redcliffe because it is the second mightiest fortress in all of ferelden, only surpassed by Denerim itself. And again, the Darkspawn didn't "camp in Lothering" but spread across all of Ferelden. You really didn't notice all the black corruption seeping across your quick-travel map? THAT was the extension of the Darkspawn blight.
7: The player character in DA:O is what you make of him. While true, he can at time feel more disconnected from the story than Hawke, becasue of the lack of a voice. Most roleplayers are able to overcome this.
8: There are several encounters that show plenty of how twisted the Darkspawn are. You really havn't been paying attention at all if you can't remember any.... Like say for example, the description of the creation process of Broodmothers. Or how they mutilate and desecrate the corpses of the dead at Ostagar.
9: The Archdemon is like a nexus to the Darkspawn. WHile it holds a certain amount of influecne over all Darkspawn everywhere, only the ones in its vicinity benefits fully from this. Or any other explanation really. Like say, being the general at the field, or simly becasue it was hungry. There are literally hundreds of different explanations as to why the Archdemon chose to participate in the assault on Denerim.
10: Nor are they trying to use magic as an excusea t any time..
#3
Posté 11 mars 2012 - 04:14
cJohnOne
-
- Members
- 2 365 messages
Um, I have to point out that this topic should be in the DAO forums not the DA2 forum.
Anyways, It's hard to think back to when I first got the game but back then it started out being just another game. I don't know when it became a great game to me but it did! It really pulls me in and keeps me interested throughout the game. The characters are great. It does a good job introducing the world of DragonAge.
It's too bad some people don't enjoy these games. I enjoyed DA2 too.
Anyways, It's hard to think back to when I first got the game but back then it started out being just another game. I don't know when it became a great game to me but it did! It really pulls me in and keeps me interested throughout the game. The characters are great. It does a good job introducing the world of DragonAge.
It's too bad some people don't enjoy these games. I enjoyed DA2 too.
#4
Posté 11 mars 2012 - 05:50
TEWR
-
- Members
- 16 979 messages
1. The introduction to every race is rushed and there is never enough time to know the characters you were with or give 2 dimes about anything they did. (Ie Human noble, Basically get introduced to family and 10 minutes later they're dead.)
As opposed to DAII's prologue which did things well.
Oh wait, it didn't. I'm told I should care for my sibling that I know nothing about before he/she's killed by an Ogre 3 minutes into the game. Then after I complete the game a few times, I have to metagame just to care about the sibling that is killed.
Because clearly that's much better! [/sarcasm]
It's not better. Metagaming just so you can care about a character is bad game design -- especially when much of the information you're given is irrelevant to the character's past in the prologue -- and I think the devs should be willing to admit that.
DAO's introductions were the better ones, no matter what a person says. True, certain elements of them aren't the best like how a Dwarf Noble can't call Bhelen out on his scheming, but overall they're better because it allows you to get to know your family well enough before things fall apart.
The only one I dislike is the Dalish Elf origin for not really letting me know the people -- instead I just get to know their roles in the clan -- but they are better then DAII's shoddy attempt at a "prologue".
2. The Darkspawn are basically Mordor orc look alikes and are effectively braindead. What do i mean by braindead you ask? Well after the sacking of Lothering you'd think the Dark spawn and its blight would just start steam rolling over the majority of Fereldon. But for some reason the Dark spawn are either too slow or are effectively braindead and can't come to realise that nothing is stopping them from sacking Redcliff since it would be the obvious target for an assault. It would give them a staging ground as they would then advance to sack the mages tower and then Orzimmar. I say this because everyone in each region is either divided into feudes amongst themselves or is combating some problem in the area. Seriously why didn't the Dark spawn just have a non stop march and sack the majority of Fereldon? The only city with any real chance at survial is Denerirm.
You want to know why Darkspawn are mindless? Well, it's because that's how they're supposed to be, more or less. They only have a rudimentary intelligence.
Only the Archdemon -- or the Darkspawn that are freed from the Old God's Call thanks to the Architect. Or Corypheus -- can command major portions of the horde. Outside of Blights, Alphas and Emissaries have very limited sway over the grunts. And that's due not to intelligence, but to fear. The Alphas and Emissaries command the lesser Darkspawn out of fear and use brute force to make them do what they want.
And if you pay attention to the map, you can see a giant black shadow engulfing the majority of the Bannorn as you progress through the game.
Take a wild guess as to what that black shadow is. That's right folks, it's the Blight! And if you pay attention, you're often showed random encounters with Darkspawn.
Of course it would've been nice to go to farms and small villages and see the Darkspawn terrorizing the area, but at least Bioware gave us random encounters with the Darkspawn anyway.
And I'll take DAO's design for Hurlock Grunts, Shrieks, and Ogres over DAII's anyday. The only Darkspawn that meet my approval from DAII are the Genlocks and the Emissaries, the latter needing to get rid of the S&M gear on the face and the Elven ears since they're supposed to be Hurlock Emissaries.
3. As much as Logain's plan might make sense he clearly doesn't remember the part where it explains that only grey wardens can kill the archdemon. What was he so full of himself that he beleived that he was the only one possible for the job? Either way the segment in the game where he puts a bounty on you doesn't make any sense when everyone knows that only a grey warden can end the blight.?
What Emp said.
People only know that the Grey Wardens have always fought to end the Blights. No one knows why they are needed and Loghain believes that it's exaggeration when they say they must be there.
Additionally, I believe that Arl Howe was telling him about the Orlesian Wardens coming in to invade Ferelden and reconquer it for Orlais, which would've fed Loghain's paranoia. He hates Orlais with a passion. And for good reason.
4. The Arch demon. The best way to describe this thing is to call it a idiot who suffers from Sauron sydrome. This is a trait that an antagonist in this type of story possesses when they sit on their ass for the whole game and don't emerge until the end of the game for the final fight. It would of helped if the arch demon was a character. But sadly it isn't. And this creates yet another plot hole. How can something with clearly no sentient mind of any description control an army of mindless drones? The Arch demon does not once speak or do anything but roar like a monster. If the answer to this question is its magic then i will just ignore it because that is an A$inine excuse for a rated M game
The Archdemon is a friggin' Old God. It's a god. Just because it speaks in the draconian language doesn't make it mindless.
The Darkspawn constantly hear the Call of the Old Gods. They describe it as a song. Additionally, Alistair can flat out tell you that given time a Warden can understand what it's saying. You can even hear the Old God's speech when the Darkspawn amass at Ostagar, when you take in the Joining -- both the Reaver Joining which lets you just hear what a Dragon says and the Warden Joining --, and later on in the game.
And if you want it to appear early on, then do Orzammar first.
Not a hard concept to grasp, considering the Old Gods were trapped underground for centuries and the Blight had only just begun.
finally, Darkspawn Chronicles showed that it does speak to the horde.
5. The fact that this is rated M. From my understanding other rated t games have had as much blood or more than DAO. So why is it rated M? what because of the scenes where you bang the stool/intrest. It probably is but this is just angering.
Not sure how this is a fault of the game when it's just a fault of the ratings system that is prevalent for every game, and most parents don't even pay attention to the ratings in the first place.
6. Retreading on points from #2, #3 and #4, The narritive of this game basically boils down to you getting the treaties from the areas around the map. While doing this you'd think that the darkspawn would be fast on your tracks right? Well no. For what ever reason the Dark spawn just camp in the ruins of Lothering while Gathering the treaties from everyone. Why they didn't sack Redcliff is beyond me. I guess a Wizard did it. As i said in point 2 why the Arch demon didn't capitolize on the disarray of the country was beyond me. So are the Darkspawn just mindless monsters with no semblence of intelligence? Well that doesn't work because the Dark spawn can obviously craft weapons and armor to go into battle with. They have Alphas who act as Generals in a sense so they have to have some form of intelligence right?
Yes they have some intelligence. But this seems to only apply during a Blight. Most of the Darkspawn are located in the Deep Roads. Natural, given their propensity to remain there.
And you also have to take into account they enjoy making broodmothers. You know, the insect queen humanoids that churn out Darkspawn all the time. After Ostagar, they're also bolstering their numbers.
Oh and, look at your damn map. You'll see how far the horde spread as you progress throughout the game, considering Ferelden is miles and miles of countryside.
8. Since the Dark Spawn are effectively camping for most of the game we never see them do anything malicious or any moment where they do something to show how twisted they are. After Ostagar we don't see the darkspawn in the plot again until the deeproads in Orzimmar and Denerim for the final battle.
Broodmothers, eating the flesh of the dead, raising the dead to fight for them, burning villages, hanging villagers and soldiers, etc.
Yea, nothing they do is horrid or twisted in the slightest!
9. Speaking of the final battle why does the arch demon even show up at all? the darkspawn are clearly mowing down everyone and the numbers just pour in like rabbits. When the Archdemon does finally show up he dies in a boss fight and all the Darkspawn retreat completely oblvious to the world around them like the Orcs did from lord of the rings at the end.
I don't know, maybe because a gigantic Dragon can help ensure victory by burning people alive and flying over the battlefield? Maybe because it's the leader of the horde and its sway holds more power when it's closer to the Darkspawn? Maybe he's planning on taking a giant **** all over the battlefield. Take your pick.
The Archdemon only dies because Riordan was able to wound its wing severely, rendering it incapable of serious flight afterwards. At best, it could only fly short distances.
Had Riordan not done that, chances are the Blight wouldn't have ended.
10. Magic is no excuse for plot holes.
Good thing there weren't any then.
EDIT: BAH! this is the problem with quote snipping. You forget one quote tag or mess it up, and everything gets messed up. And then you only realize it a few hours later...
after someone quoted you.
Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 11 mars 2012 - 10:00 .
#5
Posté 11 mars 2012 - 07:16
GavrielKay
-
- Members
- 1 336 messages
Origins was better in so many ways it is hard to think of them all.
There were more choices, including what race and background you could play. There was much more interaction with your companions. The enemies were more developed and consistent. It was a huge and interesting world to explore. Even most of the little fetch quests had more story behind them than half of DA2s main quests. There were far fewer places where something completely out of character happened just because the plot demanded it.
Origins felt like a huge game that had been lovingly crafted by dedicated story tellers and programmers. DA2 felt like it had been rushed out the door to capitalize on the popularity of its predecessor.
I loved Origins and played it obsessively for months. DA2 was a pleasant waste of a few days that quickly became tedious and repetitive.
There were more choices, including what race and background you could play. There was much more interaction with your companions. The enemies were more developed and consistent. It was a huge and interesting world to explore. Even most of the little fetch quests had more story behind them than half of DA2s main quests. There were far fewer places where something completely out of character happened just because the plot demanded it.
Origins felt like a huge game that had been lovingly crafted by dedicated story tellers and programmers. DA2 felt like it had been rushed out the door to capitalize on the popularity of its predecessor.
I loved Origins and played it obsessively for months. DA2 was a pleasant waste of a few days that quickly became tedious and repetitive.
- TobyJake aime ceci
#6
Posté 11 mars 2012 - 09:15
Mallgore
-
- Members
- 11 messages
EmperorSahlertz wrote...
1: Highly subjective. A lot of people gave high praises to the origin stories. You apprently didn't like them, but that is your beef, and not detrimental to the game.
2: The Blights are events that spans centuries at a time, and the one in DA:O barely even got off the staging process. Not to mention that the Blight had engulfed almost half of Ferelden by the end of the game.....
3: NO ONE but the Grey Wardens knows exactly why only Grey Wardens can defeat the Blight. Loghain believed it to be exaggeration from teh Grey Wardens. Not to mention that he didn't even believe it was a Blight at all. That you fail to understand what is going on in the story, is not detrimental to the game...
4: Again, the Blight had barely even begun, and the Darkspawn was still amassing their forces for much of the initial phases of the game. Furthermore, as I already mentioned, the Blight did consumehalf of Ferelden. And you are forgetting that there were still armies to oppose the Darkspawn, even though there was a civil war going on.
5: ESRB ratings havn't mattered since the day of their conception. Nor is it even the games' "fault", but rather whatever stuck up soccer mom invented the rating system.
6: They didn't sack Redcliffe because it is the second mightiest fortress in all of ferelden, only surpassed by Denerim itself. And again, the Darkspawn didn't "camp in Lothering" but spread across all of Ferelden. You really didn't notice all the black corruption seeping across your quick-travel map? THAT was the extension of the Darkspawn blight.
7: The player character in DA:O is what you make of him. While true, he can at time feel more disconnected from the story than Hawke, becasue of the lack of a voice. Most roleplayers are able to overcome this.
8: There are several encounters that show plenty of how twisted the Darkspawn are. You really havn't been paying attention at all if you can't remember any.... Like say for example, the description of the creation process of Broodmothers. Or how they mutilate and desecrate the corpses of the dead at Ostagar.
9: The Archdemon is like a nexus to the Darkspawn. WHile it holds a certain amount of influecne over all Darkspawn everywhere, only the ones in its vicinity benefits fully from this. Or any other explanation really. Like say, being the general at the field, or simly becasue it was hungry. There are literally hundreds of different explanations as to why the Archdemon chose to participate in the assault on Denerim.
10: Nor are they trying to use magic as an excusea t any time..
1. I didn't like the origin stories because they have no impact on the player character throughout the rest of the game. And as i said before they feel a tad bit to rushed. How am i supposed to be invested in a character if they die just barely a few minutes after they are introduced.
2. How did it barely take off? It seemed like the darkspawn were doing just fine mopping up the army at Ostagar when everyone under Logain's banner fled the field.
3. Why didn't the grey wardens tell everyone how? Were they that afraid of people not wanting to join? If this threat is such a big deal then people should know sacrifices are necessary. Its better that people know so that people don't write you off as expendable or only capable of exagerating facts.
4. If the blight had barely begun massing its forces then why did it even bother attacking? You would need a military mind like Napoleon or Alexander to launch an invasion with such an ill prepared force. What Armies were able to oppose the darkspawn. Redcliff was bogged down by demon child, mages tower was thrown into chaos by abominations, Orzimmar because of a throne dispute, The elves and werewolves. The only one who was ready for anything was Denerim.
5 wasn't a valid point i admit, it was frustration and nothing more.
6. I call bull**** on that. Redcliff couldn't hold against a swarm of Locusts with the mess demon boy left. And if the player doesn't go there first then whats the excuse for not sacking it. The civillians are pinned down in the village and the Castle is virtually defenseless. The darkspawn would only need some ladders to climb the walls and take the castle. or break the gate down with the catapult.
7. That is an excuse. In this game the player feels like nothing more than a tag along. Like a plot prop that only does what the plot requires and doesn't have any opportunity to grow and change as a character. Dragon age 2 did this well (no i do not mean the voice of Hawk in Da2.) The family felt more important in Da2 and there was more tension with the Templar inquisition.
8. I need to be more specific it seems. By twisted i want to see the Darkspawn actually raise cities to the ground. Like have the PC actually be there for a Darkspawn attack. (i know it isn't fair but Mass effect 3 is an example on how to improve this problem. It shows Bioware is improving, (even the though the ending could use some tweaks in that game.)
9. The Arch demon should have been smarter than that. It practically flew around the castle asking to be killed. If you say arrogance well i say that is a copout. Too many villains suffer from the same tired cliche of screwing himself over due to arrogance. Flemmeth would be a better Arch Demon. I honestly hope the Flemmeth is the antagonist of Da3. It would make sense since Hawke's presence in Kirkwall would benifit Flemmeth (if she is the next Arch Demon)
10. Yes they did use magic, you said so yourself with your explaination of why the Arch Demon was in Denerim.
#7
Posté 11 mars 2012 - 09:47
Mallgore
-
- Members
- 11 messages
[quote]The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
[quote]1. The introduction to every race is rushed and there is never enough time to know the characters you were with or give 2 dimes about anything they did. (Ie Human noble, Basically get introduced to family and 10 minutes later they're dead.)[/quote]
As opposed to DAII's prologue which did things well.
Oh wait, it didn't. I'm told I should care for my sibling that I know nothing about before he/she's killed by an Ogre 3 minutes into the game. Then after I complete the game a few times, I have to metagame just to care about the sibling that is killed.
Because clearly that's much better! [/sarcasm]
It's not better. Metagaming just so you can care about a character is bad game design -- especially when much of the information you're given is irrelevant to the character's past in the prologue -- and I think the devs should be willing to admit that.
DAO's introductions were the better ones, no matter what a person says. True, certain elements of them aren't the best like how a Dwarf Noble can't call Bhelen out on his scheming, but overall they're better because it allows you to get to know your family well enough before things fall apart.
The only one I dislike is the Dalish Elf origin for not really letting me know the people -- instead I just get to know their roles in the clan -- but they are better then DAII's shoddy attempt at a "prologue".
[quote]
2. The Darkspawn are basically Mordor orc look alikes and are effectively braindead. What do i mean by braindead you ask? Well after the sacking of Lothering you'd think the Dark spawn and its blight would just start steam rolling over the majority of Fereldon. But for some reason the Dark spawn are either too slow or are effectively braindead and can't come to realise that nothing is stopping them from sacking Redcliff since it would be the obvious target for an assault. It would give them a staging ground as they would then advance to sack the mages tower and then Orzimmar. I say this because everyone in each region is either divided into feudes amongst themselves or is combating some problem in the area. Seriously why didn't the Dark spawn just have a non stop march and sack the majority of Fereldon? The only city with any real chance at survial is Denerirm.[/quote]
You want to know why Darkspawn are mindless? Well, it's because that's how they're supposed to be, more or less. They only have a rudimentary intelligence.
Only the Archdemon -- or the Darkspawn that are freed from the Old God's Call thanks to the Architect. Or Corypheus -- can command major portions of the horde. Outside of Blights, Alphas and Emissaries have very limited sway over the grunts. And that's due not to intelligence, but to fear. The Alphas and Emissaries command the lesser Darkspawn out of fear and use brute force to make them do what they want.
And if you pay attention to the map, you can see a giant black shadow engulfing the majority of the Bannorn as you progress through the game.
Take a wild guess as to what that black shadow is. That's right folks, it's the Blight! And if you pay attention, you're often showed random encounters with Darkspawn.
Of course it would've been nice to go to farms and small villages and see the Darkspawn terrorizing the area, but at least Bioware gave us random encounters with the Darkspawn anyway.
And I'll take DAO's design for Hurlock Grunts, Shrieks, and Ogres over DAII's anyday. The only Darkspawn that meet my approval from DAII are the Genlocks and the Emissaries, the latter needing to get rid of the S&M gear on the face and the Elven ears since they're supposed to be Hurlock Emissaries.
[quote]
3. As much as Logain's plan might make sense he clearly doesn't remember the part where it explains that only grey wardens can kill the archdemon. What was he so full of himself that he beleived that he was the only one possible for the job? Either way the segment in the game where he puts a bounty on you doesn't make any sense when everyone knows that only a grey warden can end the blight.? [/quote]
What Emp said.
People only know that the Grey Wardens have always fought to end the Blights. No one knows why they are needed and Loghain believes that it's exaggeration when they say they must be there.
Additionally, I believe that Arl Howe was telling him about the Orlesian Wardens coming in to invade Ferelden and reconquer it for Orlais, which would've fed Loghain's paranoia. He hates Orlais with a passion. And for good reason.
4. The Arch demon. The best way to describe this thing is to call it a idiot who suffers from Sauron sydrome. This is a trait that an antagonist in this type of story possesses when they sit on their ass for the whole game and don't emerge until the end of the game for the final fight. It would of helped if the arch demon was a character. But sadly it isn't. And this creates yet another plot hole. How can something with clearly no sentient mind of any description control an army of mindless drones? The Arch demon does not once speak or do anything but roar like a monster. If the answer to this question is its magic then i will just ignore it because that is an A$inine excuse for a rated M game[/quote]
The Archdemon is a friggin' Old God. It's a god. Just because it speaks in the draconian language doesn't make it mindless.
The Darkspawn constantly hear the Call of the Old Gods. They describe it as a song. Additionally, Alistair can flat out tell you that given time a Warden can understand what it's saying. You can even hear the Old God's speech when the Darkspawn amass at Ostagar, when you take in the Joining -- both the Reaver Joining which lets you just hear what a Dragon says and the Warden Joining --, and later on in the game.
And if you want it to appear early on, then do Orzammar first.
Not a hard concept to grasp, considering the Old Gods were trapped underground for centuries and the Blight had only just begun.
finally, Darkspawn Chronicles showed that it does speak to the horde.
[quote]
5. The fact that this is rated M. From my understanding other rated t games have had as much blood or more than DAO. So why is it rated M? what because of the scenes where you bang the stool/intrest. It probably is but this is just angering. [/quote]
Not sure how this is a fault of the game when it's just a fault of the ratings system that is prevalent for every game, and most parents don't even pay attention to the ratings in the first place.
[quote]
6. Retreading on points from #2, #3 and #4, The narritive of this game basically boils down to you getting the treaties from the areas around the map. While doing this you'd think that the darkspawn would be fast on your tracks right? Well no. For what ever reason the Dark spawn just camp in the ruins of Lothering while Gathering the treaties from everyone. Why they didn't sack Redcliff is beyond me. I guess a Wizard did it. As i said in point 2 why the Arch demon didn't capitolize on the disarray of the country was beyond me. So are the Darkspawn just mindless monsters with no semblence of intelligence? Well that doesn't work because the Dark spawn can obviously craft weapons and armor to go into battle with. They have Alphas who act as Generals in a sense so they have to have some form of intelligence right?[/quote]
Yes they have some intelligence. But this seems to only apply during a Blight. Most of the Darkspawn are located in the Deep Roads. Natural, given their propensity to remain there.
And you also have to take into account they enjoy making broodmothers. You know, the insect queen humanoids that churn out Darkspawn all the time. After Ostagar, they're also bolstering their numbers.
Oh and, look at your damn map. You'll see how far the horde spread as you progress throughout the game, considering Ferelden is miles and miles of countryside.
[quote]
8. Since the Dark Spawn are effectively camping for most of the game we never see them do anything malicious or any moment where they do something to show how twisted they are. After Ostagar we don't see the darkspawn in the plot again until the deeproads in Orzimmar and Denerim for the final battle.[/quote]
Broodmothers, eating the flesh of the dead, raising the dead to fight for them, burning villages, hanging villagers and soldiers, etc.
Yea, nothing they do is horrid or twisted in the slightest!
[quote]
9. Speaking of the final battle why does the arch demon even show up at all? the darkspawn are clearly mowing down everyone and the numbers just pour in like rabbits. When the Archdemon does finally show up he dies in a boss fight and all the Darkspawn retreat completely oblvious to the world around them like the Orcs did from lord of the rings at the end. [/quote]
I don't know, maybe because a gigantic Dragon can help ensure victory by burning people alive and flying over the battlefield? Maybe because it's the leader of the horde and its sway holds more power when it's closer to the Darkspawn? Maybe he's planning on taking a giant **** all over the battlefield. Take your pick.
The Archdemon only dies because Riordan was able to wound its wing severely, rendering it incapable of serious flight afterwards. At best, it could only fly short distances.
Had Riordan not done that, chances are the Blight wouldn't have ended.
[quote]
10. Magic is no excuse for plot holes. [/quote]
Good thing there weren't any then.
[/quote]
YOu failed to explain why redcliff wasn't sacked. Don't tell me it was well defended. Demon boy caused so much dissaray in that area that it would have been a prime target for the dark spawn. The arch Demon being a God Figure and all should have seen the tactical advantage of taking Redcliff. He would have had a better staging ground for a further advance on the mage tower and then Orzimmar. While this is happening they could have flushed the elves out with a separate force alltogether. It is logical that the enemy make the effort to adavance and take out the enemy as quickly as possible. Since they prosper in the deeproads the could have hammer and anviled the dwarves in Orzimmar if they followed my battle plan. This way Denerim would be the only bastion of defense left in Fereldon. Once the Dark spawn secure the other areas along the northern road they could have then taken their time to build up forces while starving out Denerim. Am i missing something here or is the Turkish war strategy all fantasy villains know how to do?
btw As i recall Lothering is the only village to be raised and we don't even get to see that. And if the brood mothers were focusing on that why does it take so long to advance an army out. Why were they sitting there. With the forces in the deeproads the Darkspawn should have attacked Orzimmar while it was fighting amongst itself for the dwarfish throne.
again why did the darkspawn advance on the right, marching on the left would have crippled the enemy from gathering support for the final battle.
Old gods? what? From what i understood of this game's plot the darkspawn are just mages that got corrupted by their own hubris.
And the grey wardens not telling everyone is their own fault. Why be so secretive if this threat is so massive then i think everyone should know what is going on.
As i recall the Arch demon wasn't at Ostagar so it quite clear that it isn't needed all that much if the defenders get steamrolled after Logain retreats.
IF the Arch demon is the equivilent of a god then why doesn't it have more powers that cause mass destruction. Like Ie Long range fire balls.
so draconian language. That didn't sound like a language it sounded like roaring to me.
Shouldn't the Darkspawn have prepared for this grand invasion before declaring to the world that they had returned. It would be like Napoleon marching on Russia with his troops having no ammo and little to no food for the campaign. In short they should have taken care of these preparations before declaring war on the world. I know i am going to get flack for this but the King of shadows from never winter nights 2 was a more intimidating adversary.
w.e If i wanted an open world game i would have played an elderscrolls game.
The reason i love the 2nd game so much is because the antagonist is everyone's own flaws. The templars are afraid of magic, the Mages are tired of being opressed. But at the same time its not black and white. By act 3 the templars start having a convincing argument for their cause. Doesn't make it right but you start seeing it. As a few blood mages ruin it for everyone. I will admit the final fights for Da2 could have really used a rework. Anders should have been the final antagonist if you didn't choose to kill him. Orsino and Meridith should have destroyed each other. And while the chaos is happening in the streets you could confront anders and try to make him see what he did was wrong. After some dialogue anders could in this situation admit that it doesn't matter what happens because he already has won. Blowing up the chantry has sparked a flame that won't die now.
I think Da2 is better because its about people's own flaws causing the greatest calamites. While Da2 is just a retread of save the world from the evil forces of the big bad dragon.
Again i am only reffering to the main narritive. I don't care about the side quests or any of the game's mechanics i am talking about the main narritive of the both games.
[quote]1. The introduction to every race is rushed and there is never enough time to know the characters you were with or give 2 dimes about anything they did. (Ie Human noble, Basically get introduced to family and 10 minutes later they're dead.)[/quote]
As opposed to DAII's prologue which did things well.
Oh wait, it didn't. I'm told I should care for my sibling that I know nothing about before he/she's killed by an Ogre 3 minutes into the game. Then after I complete the game a few times, I have to metagame just to care about the sibling that is killed.
Because clearly that's much better! [/sarcasm]
It's not better. Metagaming just so you can care about a character is bad game design -- especially when much of the information you're given is irrelevant to the character's past in the prologue -- and I think the devs should be willing to admit that.
DAO's introductions were the better ones, no matter what a person says. True, certain elements of them aren't the best like how a Dwarf Noble can't call Bhelen out on his scheming, but overall they're better because it allows you to get to know your family well enough before things fall apart.
The only one I dislike is the Dalish Elf origin for not really letting me know the people -- instead I just get to know their roles in the clan -- but they are better then DAII's shoddy attempt at a "prologue".
[quote]
2. The Darkspawn are basically Mordor orc look alikes and are effectively braindead. What do i mean by braindead you ask? Well after the sacking of Lothering you'd think the Dark spawn and its blight would just start steam rolling over the majority of Fereldon. But for some reason the Dark spawn are either too slow or are effectively braindead and can't come to realise that nothing is stopping them from sacking Redcliff since it would be the obvious target for an assault. It would give them a staging ground as they would then advance to sack the mages tower and then Orzimmar. I say this because everyone in each region is either divided into feudes amongst themselves or is combating some problem in the area. Seriously why didn't the Dark spawn just have a non stop march and sack the majority of Fereldon? The only city with any real chance at survial is Denerirm.[/quote]
You want to know why Darkspawn are mindless? Well, it's because that's how they're supposed to be, more or less. They only have a rudimentary intelligence.
Only the Archdemon -- or the Darkspawn that are freed from the Old God's Call thanks to the Architect. Or Corypheus -- can command major portions of the horde. Outside of Blights, Alphas and Emissaries have very limited sway over the grunts. And that's due not to intelligence, but to fear. The Alphas and Emissaries command the lesser Darkspawn out of fear and use brute force to make them do what they want.
And if you pay attention to the map, you can see a giant black shadow engulfing the majority of the Bannorn as you progress through the game.
Take a wild guess as to what that black shadow is. That's right folks, it's the Blight! And if you pay attention, you're often showed random encounters with Darkspawn.
Of course it would've been nice to go to farms and small villages and see the Darkspawn terrorizing the area, but at least Bioware gave us random encounters with the Darkspawn anyway.
And I'll take DAO's design for Hurlock Grunts, Shrieks, and Ogres over DAII's anyday. The only Darkspawn that meet my approval from DAII are the Genlocks and the Emissaries, the latter needing to get rid of the S&M gear on the face and the Elven ears since they're supposed to be Hurlock Emissaries.
[quote]
3. As much as Logain's plan might make sense he clearly doesn't remember the part where it explains that only grey wardens can kill the archdemon. What was he so full of himself that he beleived that he was the only one possible for the job? Either way the segment in the game where he puts a bounty on you doesn't make any sense when everyone knows that only a grey warden can end the blight.? [/quote]
What Emp said.
People only know that the Grey Wardens have always fought to end the Blights. No one knows why they are needed and Loghain believes that it's exaggeration when they say they must be there.
Additionally, I believe that Arl Howe was telling him about the Orlesian Wardens coming in to invade Ferelden and reconquer it for Orlais, which would've fed Loghain's paranoia. He hates Orlais with a passion. And for good reason.
4. The Arch demon. The best way to describe this thing is to call it a idiot who suffers from Sauron sydrome. This is a trait that an antagonist in this type of story possesses when they sit on their ass for the whole game and don't emerge until the end of the game for the final fight. It would of helped if the arch demon was a character. But sadly it isn't. And this creates yet another plot hole. How can something with clearly no sentient mind of any description control an army of mindless drones? The Arch demon does not once speak or do anything but roar like a monster. If the answer to this question is its magic then i will just ignore it because that is an A$inine excuse for a rated M game[/quote]
The Archdemon is a friggin' Old God. It's a god. Just because it speaks in the draconian language doesn't make it mindless.
The Darkspawn constantly hear the Call of the Old Gods. They describe it as a song. Additionally, Alistair can flat out tell you that given time a Warden can understand what it's saying. You can even hear the Old God's speech when the Darkspawn amass at Ostagar, when you take in the Joining -- both the Reaver Joining which lets you just hear what a Dragon says and the Warden Joining --, and later on in the game.
And if you want it to appear early on, then do Orzammar first.
Not a hard concept to grasp, considering the Old Gods were trapped underground for centuries and the Blight had only just begun.
finally, Darkspawn Chronicles showed that it does speak to the horde.
[quote]
5. The fact that this is rated M. From my understanding other rated t games have had as much blood or more than DAO. So why is it rated M? what because of the scenes where you bang the stool/intrest. It probably is but this is just angering. [/quote]
Not sure how this is a fault of the game when it's just a fault of the ratings system that is prevalent for every game, and most parents don't even pay attention to the ratings in the first place.
[quote]
6. Retreading on points from #2, #3 and #4, The narritive of this game basically boils down to you getting the treaties from the areas around the map. While doing this you'd think that the darkspawn would be fast on your tracks right? Well no. For what ever reason the Dark spawn just camp in the ruins of Lothering while Gathering the treaties from everyone. Why they didn't sack Redcliff is beyond me. I guess a Wizard did it. As i said in point 2 why the Arch demon didn't capitolize on the disarray of the country was beyond me. So are the Darkspawn just mindless monsters with no semblence of intelligence? Well that doesn't work because the Dark spawn can obviously craft weapons and armor to go into battle with. They have Alphas who act as Generals in a sense so they have to have some form of intelligence right?[/quote]
Yes they have some intelligence. But this seems to only apply during a Blight. Most of the Darkspawn are located in the Deep Roads. Natural, given their propensity to remain there.
And you also have to take into account they enjoy making broodmothers. You know, the insect queen humanoids that churn out Darkspawn all the time. After Ostagar, they're also bolstering their numbers.
Oh and, look at your damn map. You'll see how far the horde spread as you progress throughout the game, considering Ferelden is miles and miles of countryside.
[quote]
8. Since the Dark Spawn are effectively camping for most of the game we never see them do anything malicious or any moment where they do something to show how twisted they are. After Ostagar we don't see the darkspawn in the plot again until the deeproads in Orzimmar and Denerim for the final battle.[/quote]
Broodmothers, eating the flesh of the dead, raising the dead to fight for them, burning villages, hanging villagers and soldiers, etc.
Yea, nothing they do is horrid or twisted in the slightest!
[quote]
9. Speaking of the final battle why does the arch demon even show up at all? the darkspawn are clearly mowing down everyone and the numbers just pour in like rabbits. When the Archdemon does finally show up he dies in a boss fight and all the Darkspawn retreat completely oblvious to the world around them like the Orcs did from lord of the rings at the end. [/quote]
I don't know, maybe because a gigantic Dragon can help ensure victory by burning people alive and flying over the battlefield? Maybe because it's the leader of the horde and its sway holds more power when it's closer to the Darkspawn? Maybe he's planning on taking a giant **** all over the battlefield. Take your pick.
The Archdemon only dies because Riordan was able to wound its wing severely, rendering it incapable of serious flight afterwards. At best, it could only fly short distances.
Had Riordan not done that, chances are the Blight wouldn't have ended.
[quote]
10. Magic is no excuse for plot holes. [/quote]
Good thing there weren't any then.
[/quote]
YOu failed to explain why redcliff wasn't sacked. Don't tell me it was well defended. Demon boy caused so much dissaray in that area that it would have been a prime target for the dark spawn. The arch Demon being a God Figure and all should have seen the tactical advantage of taking Redcliff. He would have had a better staging ground for a further advance on the mage tower and then Orzimmar. While this is happening they could have flushed the elves out with a separate force alltogether. It is logical that the enemy make the effort to adavance and take out the enemy as quickly as possible. Since they prosper in the deeproads the could have hammer and anviled the dwarves in Orzimmar if they followed my battle plan. This way Denerim would be the only bastion of defense left in Fereldon. Once the Dark spawn secure the other areas along the northern road they could have then taken their time to build up forces while starving out Denerim. Am i missing something here or is the Turkish war strategy all fantasy villains know how to do?
btw As i recall Lothering is the only village to be raised and we don't even get to see that. And if the brood mothers were focusing on that why does it take so long to advance an army out. Why were they sitting there. With the forces in the deeproads the Darkspawn should have attacked Orzimmar while it was fighting amongst itself for the dwarfish throne.
again why did the darkspawn advance on the right, marching on the left would have crippled the enemy from gathering support for the final battle.
Old gods? what? From what i understood of this game's plot the darkspawn are just mages that got corrupted by their own hubris.
And the grey wardens not telling everyone is their own fault. Why be so secretive if this threat is so massive then i think everyone should know what is going on.
As i recall the Arch demon wasn't at Ostagar so it quite clear that it isn't needed all that much if the defenders get steamrolled after Logain retreats.
IF the Arch demon is the equivilent of a god then why doesn't it have more powers that cause mass destruction. Like Ie Long range fire balls.
so draconian language. That didn't sound like a language it sounded like roaring to me.
Shouldn't the Darkspawn have prepared for this grand invasion before declaring to the world that they had returned. It would be like Napoleon marching on Russia with his troops having no ammo and little to no food for the campaign. In short they should have taken care of these preparations before declaring war on the world. I know i am going to get flack for this but the King of shadows from never winter nights 2 was a more intimidating adversary.
w.e If i wanted an open world game i would have played an elderscrolls game.
The reason i love the 2nd game so much is because the antagonist is everyone's own flaws. The templars are afraid of magic, the Mages are tired of being opressed. But at the same time its not black and white. By act 3 the templars start having a convincing argument for their cause. Doesn't make it right but you start seeing it. As a few blood mages ruin it for everyone. I will admit the final fights for Da2 could have really used a rework. Anders should have been the final antagonist if you didn't choose to kill him. Orsino and Meridith should have destroyed each other. And while the chaos is happening in the streets you could confront anders and try to make him see what he did was wrong. After some dialogue anders could in this situation admit that it doesn't matter what happens because he already has won. Blowing up the chantry has sparked a flame that won't die now.
I think Da2 is better because its about people's own flaws causing the greatest calamites. While Da2 is just a retread of save the world from the evil forces of the big bad dragon.
Again i am only reffering to the main narritive. I don't care about the side quests or any of the game's mechanics i am talking about the main narritive of the both games.
#8
Posté 11 mars 2012 - 09:58
Yrkoon
-
- Members
- 4 764 messages
Mallgore wrote...
Now without mentioning anything but the narritive tell why Dragon age origins was better than Dragon age 2.
Aah, arbitrary limitations on discussion for the win. The reasons I find DA:O much, Much, MUCH better than DA2, are about 100-fold, and narrative is near the very bottom of that list of reasons.
#10
Posté 11 mars 2012 - 10:05
Yrkoon
-
- Members
- 4 764 messages
In my game, the Warden and his party arrive just in time (twice) to stop Redcliffe from getting sacked. The first time against undead, the second time against darkspawn.Mallgore wrote...
YOu failed to explain why redcliff wasn't sacked.
Because that's what makes fantasy so good: The realism.Mallgore wrote...
I think Da2 is better because its about people's own flaws causing the greatest calamites.
Heros, Dragons, Ancient Evil... Bah! Who'd ever enjoy that garbage!?
Modifié par Yrkoon, 11 mars 2012 - 10:14 .
#11
Posté 11 mars 2012 - 10:33
TEWR
-
- Members
- 16 979 messages
@Fast Jimmy, I got the same feeling. But hey, I'm willing to give a troll a chance to convince me he's not a troll.
[quote]YOu failed to explain why redcliff wasn't sacked. Don't tell me it was well defended. Demon boy caused so much dissaray in that area that it would have been a prime target for the dark spawn.[/quote]
Well gee, there were Knights of Redcliffe constantly pouring out of Redcliffe in search of the Urn. Chances are they took down any Darkspawn they saw.
Denerim is the nation's capital. You take that down, you take down Ferelden itself. They were moving towards that goal. One Hurlock is enough to take down a few men, so numbers aren't an issue for the Archdemon. He probably doesn't care about Redcliffe because hey, the nation is so ****ed up the chances of it coming together again are very slim.
Additionally, "Connor" -- meaning the demon -- could've been defending Redcliffe from the Darkspawn since they threatened his wanted rule. He did have an entire army of demon-possessed corpses at his beck and call. Oh, and chances are he also had demons. But if they weren't threatening his rule, then he probably didn't care about them.
It'd be funny if that was the case, as it would be a case of "the enemy of my enemy is my friend."
Really, you're just nitpicking and from what I can tell, trying to troll. And you're not doing a very good job of it.
[quote]
The arch Demon being a God Figure and all should have seen the tactical advantage of taking Redcliff. He would have had a better staging ground for a further advance on the mage tower and then Orzimmar.[/quote]
The circle tower is an isolated fortress where Darkspawn wouldn't be able to access it unless they suddenly learned how to use a boat. In which case, the Templars would just start firing flaming arrows at the Darkspawn on a boat.
Orzammar isn't on their agenda. They haven't focused on the Dwarven kingdoms during a Blight for millenia. Primarily because they were the first to be ravaged, but Paragon Aeducan managed to decimate the Darkspawn troops during the first Blight and save Orzammar. Then Caridin came along and really made the Darkspawn think twice.
Also, I doubt any Darkspawn could break down the massive gate leading into Orzammar from the mountains.
[quote]
While this is happening they could have flushed the elves out with a separate force alltogether.[/quote]
The Elves haven't been there for very long. As soon as they arrived -- which is dictated by when the player decides to do the quest -- they were attacked by Werewolves. The player happens to arrive maybe a week to a month after the attack.
And incase you weren't paying attention -- something I'm sure is the case -- there were Darkspawn in the forest. Led by an Ogre.
You've also got Werewolves and Sylvans in the forest as well, which I'm sure were forced to fight the Darkspawn that entered the forest as well. Darkspawn attack everything. So do the Sylvans. Meaning that anything that's attacked by them will attack back.
[quote]It is logical that the enemy make the effort to adavance and take out the enemy as quickly as possible. Since they prosper in the deeproads the could have hammer and anviled the dwarves in Orzimmar if they followed my battle plan.[/quote]
Dwarves have survived countless onslaughts by the Darkspawn and as soon as the Blight occurred they began marshalling their forces to the surface. The Dwarves even notice this, citing it as either a recent advantage or they're building up their numbers for another attack.
That you apparently think that the Darkspawn are an unbeatable opponent -- and 4 past blights should've told you otherwise -- really kills any argument you want to make of "The Darkspawn should've won".
In fact, every Blight has been considerably shorter then the previous one thanks to the Grey Wardens.
[quote]
This way Denerim would be the only bastion of defense left in Fereldon. Once the Dark spawn secure the other areas along the northern road they could have then taken their time to build up forces while starving out Denerim. Am i missing something here or is the Turkish war strategy all fantasy villains know how to do?[/quote]
The fact that trying to attack Redcliffe isn't as strategically sound as you want to think. To attack Redcliffe means that they're going to be fighting a war on two fronts.
You've got the demon-possessed corpses, what's left of the army in/around Redcliffe, and then the Bannorn's knights. While there is a civil war going on, it's completely one-sided because Loghain is not only kicking ass but also jailing anyone that is against him. So what's left of the Civil War isn't all that much, and Loghain actually had a lot of support IIRC.
So yea, the Darkspawn would've been fighting a war on two fronts. That's never a sound strategy, especially when there are numerous other arlings -- no doubt with their own castles -- spread throughout the region. Which means other defensible posts.
Though the Archdemon can only be defeated by the Grey Wardens, the Archdemon knew that it couldn't wage a war on two fronts because that would decimate its troops. Even if it inevitably won the battles, it wouldn't have much of an army left.
And then Orlais and the Orlesian Wardens would swoop on in to kill the Archdemon.
[quote]
btw As i recall Lothering is the only village to be raised and we don't even get to see that.[/quote]
There's Lothering, Honnleath, and the entire ****ing Bannorn. The Bannorn is comprised of villages, all swearing fealty to certain Arls.
Do your homework.
[quote]And if the brood mothers were focusing on that why does it take so long to advance an army out. Why were they sitting there. With the forces in the deeproads the Darkspawn should have attacked Orzimmar while it was fighting amongst itself for the dwarfish throne. [/quote]
The Legion of the Dead was holding back the Darkspawn while the throne was being fought over. Did you miss the part where Kardol and his men were at ****ing Bownammar.
Your insults to Dwarven battle prowess earn you a death. And then another death. And then even more death.
[quote]
again why did the darkspawn advance on the right, marching on the left would have crippled the enemy from gathering support for the final battle. [/quote]
See above.
[quote]
Old gods? what? From what i understood of this game's plot the darkspawn are just mages that got corrupted by their own hubris. [/quote]
LOL no. The Old Gods are the draconic beings that the Tevinter Imperium of Old worshipped.
The Mages entered the "Golden" City -- whether it really was golden is a matter of debate, fueled by Corypheus' statements -- and became the first Awakened Darkspawn (look up the Architect incase you don't know who that is).
As a result, they are Darkspawn but they can't hear the Old Gods. The origins of Darkspawn are a mystery and the Chantry only has a grain of truth in what they preach, or so is my belief. It's my belief that the Primeval Thaig Dwarves have more to do with the origins of darkspawn then anything else
Regardless of all that, Darkspawn are born from broodmothers. Broodmothers are corrupted women of each and every race. The Darkspawn of the current era are not "Tevinter mages".
[quote]
And the grey wardens not telling everyone is their own fault. Why be so secretive if this threat is so massive then i think everyone should know what is going on.[/quote]
You must've missed the part where Alistair says that Duncan told everyone it was a Blight and they just dismissed it as "LOL those are just yer feelings on the matter man".
[quote]
As i recall the Arch demon wasn't at Ostagar so it quite clear that it isn't needed all that much if the defenders get steamrolled after Logain retreats. [/quote]
The Archdemon had its generals at Ostagar. Plus, the Archdemon is travelling all throughout the underground of the Deep Roads.
[quote]
IF the Arch demon is the equivilent of a god then why doesn't it have more powers that cause mass destruction. Like Ie Long range fire balls.[/quote]
It does. Or did you miss the part where it shoots fire balls at you from its breath. Or summons a torrent of corrupted spiritual energy to fight you?
[quote]
so draconian language. That didn't sound like a language it sounded like roaring to me.[/quote]
Way to dismiss the part where I said listen to the Joining. The stuff that sounds like whispering before you hear the Dragon roar.
you know what? Youtube Darkspawn Chronicles. The Hurlock Vanguard is receiving orders from the Archdemon.
Do your homework.
[quote]
Shouldn't the Darkspawn have prepared for this grand invasion before declaring to the world that they had returned.[/quote]
I guess having tens of thousands of fairly well armored troops isn't preparing. And having broodmothers that have been in the Deep Roads for who knows how long churning out more isn't preparing either.
[quote]It would be like Napoleon marching on Russia with his troops having no ammo and little to no food for the campaign.[/quote]
Considering the Darkspawn are well-armed and armored and don't need food to survive, I think they are sufficiently prepared.
[quote]
In short they should have taken care of these preparations before declaring war on the world. I know i am going to get flack for this but the King of shadows from never winter nights 2 was a more intimidating adversary.[/quote]
Never played the NWN series.
[quote]
w.e If i wanted an open world game i would have played an elderscrolls game. [/quote]
The **** does this have to do with anything?
[quote]
The reason i love the 2nd game so much is because the antagonist is everyone's own flaws. The templars are afraid of magic, the Mages are tired of being opressed. But at the same time its not black and white.[/quote]
LOL at not being black and white. Yea, because having a Knight Commander that is insane thanks to a lyrium idol -- which is made evident early on in Act 3 -- and Templars that are raping and abusing the mages certainly isn't black and white. Noooo that's morally ambiguous!
[quote]By act 3 the templars start having a convincing argument for their cause. Doesn't make it right but you start seeing it. As a few blood mages ruin it for everyone. I will admit the final fights for Da2 could have really used a rework. Anders should have been the final antagonist if you didn't choose to kill him. Orsino and Meridith should have destroyed each other. And while the chaos is happening in the streets you could confront anders and try to make him see what he did was wrong. After some dialogue anders could in this situation admit that it doesn't matter what happens because he already has won. Blowing up the chantry has sparked a flame that won't die now. [/quote]
Yea... no.
[quote]
I think Da2 is better because its about people's own flaws causing the greatest calamites. While Da2 is just a retread of save the world from the evil forces of the big bad dragon.[/quote]
DAII is worse.
[quote]
Again i am only reffering to the main narritive. I don't care about the side quests or any of the game's mechanics i am talking about the main narritive of the both games. [/quote]
And I could spend hours upon hours proving to you how DAII's narrative is inferior. But I've done that so many times in the past that it's almost not worth it.
EDIT: I'm defending the Archdemon. Ain't that a change of pace.
[quote]YOu failed to explain why redcliff wasn't sacked. Don't tell me it was well defended. Demon boy caused so much dissaray in that area that it would have been a prime target for the dark spawn.[/quote]
Well gee, there were Knights of Redcliffe constantly pouring out of Redcliffe in search of the Urn. Chances are they took down any Darkspawn they saw.
Denerim is the nation's capital. You take that down, you take down Ferelden itself. They were moving towards that goal. One Hurlock is enough to take down a few men, so numbers aren't an issue for the Archdemon. He probably doesn't care about Redcliffe because hey, the nation is so ****ed up the chances of it coming together again are very slim.
Additionally, "Connor" -- meaning the demon -- could've been defending Redcliffe from the Darkspawn since they threatened his wanted rule. He did have an entire army of demon-possessed corpses at his beck and call. Oh, and chances are he also had demons. But if they weren't threatening his rule, then he probably didn't care about them.
It'd be funny if that was the case, as it would be a case of "the enemy of my enemy is my friend."
Really, you're just nitpicking and from what I can tell, trying to troll. And you're not doing a very good job of it.
[quote]
The arch Demon being a God Figure and all should have seen the tactical advantage of taking Redcliff. He would have had a better staging ground for a further advance on the mage tower and then Orzimmar.[/quote]
The circle tower is an isolated fortress where Darkspawn wouldn't be able to access it unless they suddenly learned how to use a boat. In which case, the Templars would just start firing flaming arrows at the Darkspawn on a boat.
Orzammar isn't on their agenda. They haven't focused on the Dwarven kingdoms during a Blight for millenia. Primarily because they were the first to be ravaged, but Paragon Aeducan managed to decimate the Darkspawn troops during the first Blight and save Orzammar. Then Caridin came along and really made the Darkspawn think twice.
Also, I doubt any Darkspawn could break down the massive gate leading into Orzammar from the mountains.
[quote]
While this is happening they could have flushed the elves out with a separate force alltogether.[/quote]
The Elves haven't been there for very long. As soon as they arrived -- which is dictated by when the player decides to do the quest -- they were attacked by Werewolves. The player happens to arrive maybe a week to a month after the attack.
And incase you weren't paying attention -- something I'm sure is the case -- there were Darkspawn in the forest. Led by an Ogre.
You've also got Werewolves and Sylvans in the forest as well, which I'm sure were forced to fight the Darkspawn that entered the forest as well. Darkspawn attack everything. So do the Sylvans. Meaning that anything that's attacked by them will attack back.
[quote]It is logical that the enemy make the effort to adavance and take out the enemy as quickly as possible. Since they prosper in the deeproads the could have hammer and anviled the dwarves in Orzimmar if they followed my battle plan.[/quote]
Dwarves have survived countless onslaughts by the Darkspawn and as soon as the Blight occurred they began marshalling their forces to the surface. The Dwarves even notice this, citing it as either a recent advantage or they're building up their numbers for another attack.
That you apparently think that the Darkspawn are an unbeatable opponent -- and 4 past blights should've told you otherwise -- really kills any argument you want to make of "The Darkspawn should've won".
In fact, every Blight has been considerably shorter then the previous one thanks to the Grey Wardens.
[quote]
This way Denerim would be the only bastion of defense left in Fereldon. Once the Dark spawn secure the other areas along the northern road they could have then taken their time to build up forces while starving out Denerim. Am i missing something here or is the Turkish war strategy all fantasy villains know how to do?[/quote]
The fact that trying to attack Redcliffe isn't as strategically sound as you want to think. To attack Redcliffe means that they're going to be fighting a war on two fronts.
You've got the demon-possessed corpses, what's left of the army in/around Redcliffe, and then the Bannorn's knights. While there is a civil war going on, it's completely one-sided because Loghain is not only kicking ass but also jailing anyone that is against him. So what's left of the Civil War isn't all that much, and Loghain actually had a lot of support IIRC.
So yea, the Darkspawn would've been fighting a war on two fronts. That's never a sound strategy, especially when there are numerous other arlings -- no doubt with their own castles -- spread throughout the region. Which means other defensible posts.
Though the Archdemon can only be defeated by the Grey Wardens, the Archdemon knew that it couldn't wage a war on two fronts because that would decimate its troops. Even if it inevitably won the battles, it wouldn't have much of an army left.
And then Orlais and the Orlesian Wardens would swoop on in to kill the Archdemon.
[quote]
btw As i recall Lothering is the only village to be raised and we don't even get to see that.[/quote]
There's Lothering, Honnleath, and the entire ****ing Bannorn. The Bannorn is comprised of villages, all swearing fealty to certain Arls.
Do your homework.
[quote]And if the brood mothers were focusing on that why does it take so long to advance an army out. Why were they sitting there. With the forces in the deeproads the Darkspawn should have attacked Orzimmar while it was fighting amongst itself for the dwarfish throne. [/quote]
The Legion of the Dead was holding back the Darkspawn while the throne was being fought over. Did you miss the part where Kardol and his men were at ****ing Bownammar.
Your insults to Dwarven battle prowess earn you a death. And then another death. And then even more death.
[quote]
again why did the darkspawn advance on the right, marching on the left would have crippled the enemy from gathering support for the final battle. [/quote]
See above.
[quote]
Old gods? what? From what i understood of this game's plot the darkspawn are just mages that got corrupted by their own hubris. [/quote]
LOL no. The Old Gods are the draconic beings that the Tevinter Imperium of Old worshipped.
The Mages entered the "Golden" City -- whether it really was golden is a matter of debate, fueled by Corypheus' statements -- and became the first Awakened Darkspawn (look up the Architect incase you don't know who that is).
As a result, they are Darkspawn but they can't hear the Old Gods. The origins of Darkspawn are a mystery and the Chantry only has a grain of truth in what they preach, or so is my belief. It's my belief that the Primeval Thaig Dwarves have more to do with the origins of darkspawn then anything else
Regardless of all that, Darkspawn are born from broodmothers. Broodmothers are corrupted women of each and every race. The Darkspawn of the current era are not "Tevinter mages".
[quote]
And the grey wardens not telling everyone is their own fault. Why be so secretive if this threat is so massive then i think everyone should know what is going on.[/quote]
You must've missed the part where Alistair says that Duncan told everyone it was a Blight and they just dismissed it as "LOL those are just yer feelings on the matter man".
[quote]
As i recall the Arch demon wasn't at Ostagar so it quite clear that it isn't needed all that much if the defenders get steamrolled after Logain retreats. [/quote]
The Archdemon had its generals at Ostagar. Plus, the Archdemon is travelling all throughout the underground of the Deep Roads.
[quote]
IF the Arch demon is the equivilent of a god then why doesn't it have more powers that cause mass destruction. Like Ie Long range fire balls.[/quote]
It does. Or did you miss the part where it shoots fire balls at you from its breath. Or summons a torrent of corrupted spiritual energy to fight you?
[quote]
so draconian language. That didn't sound like a language it sounded like roaring to me.[/quote]
Way to dismiss the part where I said listen to the Joining. The stuff that sounds like whispering before you hear the Dragon roar.
you know what? Youtube Darkspawn Chronicles. The Hurlock Vanguard is receiving orders from the Archdemon.
Do your homework.
[quote]
Shouldn't the Darkspawn have prepared for this grand invasion before declaring to the world that they had returned.[/quote]
I guess having tens of thousands of fairly well armored troops isn't preparing. And having broodmothers that have been in the Deep Roads for who knows how long churning out more isn't preparing either.
[quote]It would be like Napoleon marching on Russia with his troops having no ammo and little to no food for the campaign.[/quote]
Considering the Darkspawn are well-armed and armored and don't need food to survive, I think they are sufficiently prepared.
[quote]
In short they should have taken care of these preparations before declaring war on the world. I know i am going to get flack for this but the King of shadows from never winter nights 2 was a more intimidating adversary.[/quote]
Never played the NWN series.
[quote]
w.e If i wanted an open world game i would have played an elderscrolls game. [/quote]
The **** does this have to do with anything?
[quote]
The reason i love the 2nd game so much is because the antagonist is everyone's own flaws. The templars are afraid of magic, the Mages are tired of being opressed. But at the same time its not black and white.[/quote]
LOL at not being black and white. Yea, because having a Knight Commander that is insane thanks to a lyrium idol -- which is made evident early on in Act 3 -- and Templars that are raping and abusing the mages certainly isn't black and white. Noooo that's morally ambiguous!
[quote]By act 3 the templars start having a convincing argument for their cause. Doesn't make it right but you start seeing it. As a few blood mages ruin it for everyone. I will admit the final fights for Da2 could have really used a rework. Anders should have been the final antagonist if you didn't choose to kill him. Orsino and Meridith should have destroyed each other. And while the chaos is happening in the streets you could confront anders and try to make him see what he did was wrong. After some dialogue anders could in this situation admit that it doesn't matter what happens because he already has won. Blowing up the chantry has sparked a flame that won't die now. [/quote]
Yea... no.
[quote]
I think Da2 is better because its about people's own flaws causing the greatest calamites. While Da2 is just a retread of save the world from the evil forces of the big bad dragon.[/quote]
DAII is worse.
[quote]
Again i am only reffering to the main narritive. I don't care about the side quests or any of the game's mechanics i am talking about the main narritive of the both games. [/quote]
And I could spend hours upon hours proving to you how DAII's narrative is inferior. But I've done that so many times in the past that it's almost not worth it.
EDIT: I'm defending the Archdemon. Ain't that a change of pace.
Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 11 mars 2012 - 10:40 .
#12
Posté 11 mars 2012 - 10:48
TEWR
-
- Members
- 16 979 messages
Regarding Redcliffe, I imagine that current events put the Warden there around the time that Eamon was poisoned. If I remember all the details correctly:
Duncan apparently met with Eamon and talked with him, where upon arriving at Ostagar he conveyed the message given to him by Eamon.
It wasn't until after Loghain retreated and returned to Denerim -- which is about 2-3 days of a journey from Ostagar -- that he met with Jowan. So he then sent Jowan to Redcliffe to tutor Connor as well as poison Eamon.
The poison was probably fast-acting, and this led Connor to talk with the demon in the Fade. Jowan even says Connor was approached in the Fade. So, Eamon is kept alive, but the demon begins to assault the castle staff and guards. Then it turns them into walking corpses.
So yea, Wardens would in fact head to Redcliffe first just so he/she can talk to Arl Eamon, which does mean that you can handle the situation quickly. If you go to Redcliffe first, then it's only suffered from attacks by the corpses for a week. Maybe two. And the Warden has had a headstart over the Darkspawn.
The route from Ostagar to Lothering has got to be.... a hundred miles? Maybe two? I dunno how far it is -- we're never told and I may even be overestimating. But I do know it's not as short a distance as the OP wants to believe.
Duncan apparently met with Eamon and talked with him, where upon arriving at Ostagar he conveyed the message given to him by Eamon.
It wasn't until after Loghain retreated and returned to Denerim -- which is about 2-3 days of a journey from Ostagar -- that he met with Jowan. So he then sent Jowan to Redcliffe to tutor Connor as well as poison Eamon.
The poison was probably fast-acting, and this led Connor to talk with the demon in the Fade. Jowan even says Connor was approached in the Fade. So, Eamon is kept alive, but the demon begins to assault the castle staff and guards. Then it turns them into walking corpses.
So yea, Wardens would in fact head to Redcliffe first just so he/she can talk to Arl Eamon, which does mean that you can handle the situation quickly. If you go to Redcliffe first, then it's only suffered from attacks by the corpses for a week. Maybe two. And the Warden has had a headstart over the Darkspawn.
The route from Ostagar to Lothering has got to be.... a hundred miles? Maybe two? I dunno how far it is -- we're never told and I may even be overestimating. But I do know it's not as short a distance as the OP wants to believe.
Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 11 mars 2012 - 10:57 .
#13
Posté 11 mars 2012 - 10:50
Koire
-
- Members
- 183 messages
As someone who played DAO and DAA after DA2, I have to admit I don't understand all the praise for DAO either. I liked DA2 better.
Things I disliked in DAO:
1. Silent protagonist. I liked the voiced one (female, never tried the male) better.
2. Very generic plot ("we are doomed" -> "gather allies" -> "save the world from the Big Bad").
3. 'Third options'. I think the game would be so much better if you actually had to choose between elves and werewolves or Connor and his mother instead of 'choosing' both.
Having more options is good, having 'best options' is bad. Suppose you have two choices, Choice A has pros and cons, and Choice B has pros and cons. You sit down and think carefully what choice to make. But if you are presented with Choice C that has pros of both A and B and cons of neither, the decision becomes obvious and the 'choice' is effectively removed, unless you want to roleplay a character whose intentions are other than simply 'good'.
4. No rivalry. Oh, I would be so glad to rival Wynne.. there was no option. I know you can 'harden' Alistair and Leliana. I guess it's some analog of rivalry. But why do you need to say one certain line in one certain place to activate it?
5. Companion replies during dialogues with non-companion NPCs. I replayed DA2 with different parties just to see what would these companions say in certain situations. Some pairings (Anders and Fenris, Isabella and Aveline) were hilarious. And in DAO.. each time that the Warden engages into such a conversation all his/her companions step back and watch in silence. As if they are not there at all. The ability to talk to them in the camp doesn't cover it for me, you learn people by how they act in specific situations, not by simply chatting with them.
6. Approval. Again, in DA2 I felt that my whole party reacted to everything I did. In DAO they were passive.
7. Lesser gifts in DAO.. that was stupid. You've just saved a kitten from a tree. Morrigan disapproves, but you can give her a meat bone and she will forget about your little disagreement)
8. I could not romance Morrigan as a female Warden. I really wanted to.
Don't get me wrong, I liked the game overall.
Just an opinion)
Things I disliked in DAO:
1. Silent protagonist. I liked the voiced one (female, never tried the male) better.
2. Very generic plot ("we are doomed" -> "gather allies" -> "save the world from the Big Bad").
3. 'Third options'. I think the game would be so much better if you actually had to choose between elves and werewolves or Connor and his mother instead of 'choosing' both.
Having more options is good, having 'best options' is bad. Suppose you have two choices, Choice A has pros and cons, and Choice B has pros and cons. You sit down and think carefully what choice to make. But if you are presented with Choice C that has pros of both A and B and cons of neither, the decision becomes obvious and the 'choice' is effectively removed, unless you want to roleplay a character whose intentions are other than simply 'good'.
4. No rivalry. Oh, I would be so glad to rival Wynne.. there was no option. I know you can 'harden' Alistair and Leliana. I guess it's some analog of rivalry. But why do you need to say one certain line in one certain place to activate it?
5. Companion replies during dialogues with non-companion NPCs. I replayed DA2 with different parties just to see what would these companions say in certain situations. Some pairings (Anders and Fenris, Isabella and Aveline) were hilarious. And in DAO.. each time that the Warden engages into such a conversation all his/her companions step back and watch in silence. As if they are not there at all. The ability to talk to them in the camp doesn't cover it for me, you learn people by how they act in specific situations, not by simply chatting with them.
6. Approval. Again, in DA2 I felt that my whole party reacted to everything I did. In DAO they were passive.
7. Lesser gifts in DAO.. that was stupid. You've just saved a kitten from a tree. Morrigan disapproves, but you can give her a meat bone and she will forget about your little disagreement)
8. I could not romance Morrigan as a female Warden. I really wanted to.
Don't get me wrong, I liked the game overall.
Just an opinion)
Modifié par Koire, 11 mars 2012 - 11:19 .
#14
Posté 11 mars 2012 - 11:14
TEWR
-
- Members
- 16 979 messages
2. Very generic plot ("we are doomed" -> "gather allies" -> "save the world from the Big Bad").
There's nothing wrong with a generic and cliche plot so long as it's done well. In fact, it's my opinion that IP fantasy series should start off with a plot of "Save the world" just because it seems to be the best way to introduce a player to the world.
It's a way to introduce them to the setting when you're just starting to make it.
I know that for the fantasy RPG video game I've got bouncing around in my head I'm going to do a save the world plot, assuming I can ever actually begin making it.
Though I'll say right now that it wouldn't be your typical save the world plot. It would definitely be what a save the world plot, but it's not going to be using a typical Big Bad.
It's tough to explain without giving away my idea, so I won't continue.
Anyway, my point remains that a generic and cliche plot isn't a bad way to start off an IP like Dragon Age, if done well.
4. No rivalry. Oh, I would be so glad to rival Wynne.. there was no option. I know you can 'harden' Alistair and Leliana. I guess it's some analog of rivalry. But why do you need to say one certain line in one certain place to activate it?
Because that one line is brought up after a certain event that is critical to them examining who they are.
I like the idea of friendship and rivalry more and I do think it's one of the better changes for DAII, but I also see it as flawed.
5. Companion replies during dialogues with non-companion NPCs. I replayed DA2 with different parties just to see what would these companions say in certain situations. Some pairings (Anders and Fenris, Isabella and Aveline) were hilarious.
And in DAO.. each time that the Warden engages into such a conversation all his/her companions step back and watch in silence. As if they are not there at all. The ability to talk to them in the camp doesn't cover it for me, you learn people by how they act in specific situations, not by simply chatting with them.
Not true. Sten will remark with approval if you force Lloyd to fight. He'll tell you in discussion with Murdock that in Qunari society, everyone would fight against the Undead, were such a threat to be happening there.
Zevran will remark upon Berwick's suspicious behavior -- as does Leliana -- and he'll also give out advice to Ser Perth when using the barrels of oil.
Alistair will engage in discussion with Teagan and Isolde upon first meeting each one. Shale and Morrigan will comment on the situation in Redcliffe. Sten will say you should leave, to which Alistair has a brief discussion with him.
Morrigan will insist that you leave the mages to their fate. Alistair and Sten will talk about the mages.
Alistair will even talk to the knight in Lothering.
And many, many more then that.
6. Approval. Again, in DA2 I felt that my whole party reacted to everything I do. In DAO they were passive.
Not really. Wynne and Alistair will get pissed off if you spare the Anvil (I lost 15 points from Wynne).
They're actually not as passive as you might think. Most of their approval stems from their conversations, 'tis true. But they do react to the Warden's actions.
7. Lesser gifts in DAO.. that was stupid. You've just saved a kitten from a tree. Morrigan disapproves, but you can give her a meat bone and she will forget about your little disagreement)
8. I could not romance Morrigan as a female Warden. I really wanted to.
7) To be fair, Morrigan despises the "Let's be goody people!" choices. She's believes in survival of the fittest and power.
The gifts are indeed a flaw of the game, but a relatively minor one that can be overlooked by the player. Just don't give her a meat bone, especially when they're meant for Dog.
It is a flaw that the game can be abused for approval with very few important gifts to the companions, but this was rectified in DAII and as I said is a minor flaw in DAO.
8) Well, she was made to be solely heterosexual. I don't see how that's really a big deal. Just like Alistair was made to be straight.
I choose to see DAII as 4 people who are open with their sexuality -- 1 due to having no memory -- coming together because of circumstance and not because Bioware's going to go the "all bi" route in the future.
I would hope that they didn't do that for the companions, but if they did then I would hope that we at least saw numerous examples of people that only preferred one gender in Thedosian society.
Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 11 mars 2012 - 11:30 .
#15
Posté 11 mars 2012 - 11:43
Mallgore
-
- Members
- 11 messages
The eternal i give you credit for defending it. I guess i just see the generic save the world plot as an over used crutch. Is it so wrong to complain when everything is save the world? I prefer 2 because it did something different. I never bought the dlc for origins because i honestly hate dlc. Dlc just screams as a cash cow. I have a vanilla copy of dragon age.
i guess what i am hoping for is something completely different. Like an ignorant fantasy world coming across a young man from another world (Ie earth) and worshiping him/ her like a god figure. Meanwhile this person would manipulate their ignorance to create his own religion. And then another person from the same world (Ie earth) would challenge his authority and threaten to undue everything he created. A in depth character study of these two people. The antagonist would portray himself as a Jesus figure but would really be an insecure Napoleon figure who would need to have his way all the time. Meanwhile the protagonist would be internally plagued by the fact he/she was born with gentetic mutation that leads to sadistic tendancies.
idk is my idea stupid? is it so much to want something more.
i guess what i am hoping for is something completely different. Like an ignorant fantasy world coming across a young man from another world (Ie earth) and worshiping him/ her like a god figure. Meanwhile this person would manipulate their ignorance to create his own religion. And then another person from the same world (Ie earth) would challenge his authority and threaten to undue everything he created. A in depth character study of these two people. The antagonist would portray himself as a Jesus figure but would really be an insecure Napoleon figure who would need to have his way all the time. Meanwhile the protagonist would be internally plagued by the fact he/she was born with gentetic mutation that leads to sadistic tendancies.
idk is my idea stupid? is it so much to want something more.
#16
Posté 11 mars 2012 - 11:58
TEWR
-
- Members
- 16 979 messages
Mallgore wrote...
The eternal i give you credit for defending it. I guess i just see the generic save the world plot as an over used crutch. Is it so wrong to complain when everything is save the world? I prefer 2 because it did something different. I never bought the dlc for origins because i honestly hate dlc. Dlc just screams as a cash cow. I have a vanilla copy of dragon age.
I think if Bioware stuck to the generic save the world from the big bad plot for the DA series, then people could rightly complain.
But complaining that the first game in the series did such a thing? It seems to be... petty imo.
I too applaud Bioware for going a different route and trying to do a more human conflict. I just think they failed to pull it off and the execution was horrible.
I don't think the ideas were horrible. Just that the implementation of those ideas -- the game we got -- was horrible. Which is why I say DAII is worse. Because while it had great concepts, it failed to pull them off.
Also, you should buy DLC for the games. It does add something to the world of Thedas. Word of caution: avoid MotA if you're anti-Qunari.
idk is my idea stupid? is it so much to want something more.
I can't comment on your idea.
Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 11 mars 2012 - 12:04 .
#17
Posté 11 mars 2012 - 12:52
Gotholhorakh
-
- Members
- 1 480 messages
Choice. Good combat. Emotional investment.
Meh, what does that actually mean as a criticism? Is this something that detracts from people's enjoyment of a product in any real sense?
Cliches are tools - and tools they become oft-used and much-loved because they work.
If we got everyone to pick out a combined list of their 100 most loved games, novels, albums and movies, they would all be loaded with things that were either already, or subsequently became cliches - many of them hanging their stories on the same "over used crutches" time and time again, with different effects.
It's easy to automatically accept "cliches bad", but wait, is it true? Who would be pleased if games departed from cliches, exactly, and how pleased would they be?
People do hate things to be absolutely cookie-cutter in their implementation, but frankly every generation celebrates some work of fiction that wheels out a Shakespearian cliche and does it fantastically well, almost every movie works similarly to other movies of the genre, music is almost entirely derivative, FPS titles are... well you know and people enjoy all of these things immensely.
I'm not sure the "re-use of cliches and tropes is bad" argument is actually true for people in any real sense. They seem to really be OK with it.
The same thing is to be expected of RPG, surely.
I think I will mention in reference to this point, the highlighted text is what it hinges on for me and why I liked this, without trying to make it seem like your point is in some way wrong.
Choices which are related to my character's motivation (rather than what loot/storyline I will get in OOC consideration) are an important part of the RP furniture, because then you bother to have a character with motives. eg:I could go with choice C and get everything, but my char hates the people saved by choice B (or is a very bad person) and would much rather they all died, so choice A it is.
I'm not saying DA:O is perfect, but it was a really, really enjoyable game. It could have done with having its real (comparitively minor) shortcomings fixed though, rather than some of the changes that were made.
Having 6 party members and more classes/skills/spells would have been more impactful and improved the game more than everything that DA2 did, for instance.
Over used crutch
Meh, what does that actually mean as a criticism? Is this something that detracts from people's enjoyment of a product in any real sense?
Cliches are tools - and tools they become oft-used and much-loved because they work.
If we got everyone to pick out a combined list of their 100 most loved games, novels, albums and movies, they would all be loaded with things that were either already, or subsequently became cliches - many of them hanging their stories on the same "over used crutches" time and time again, with different effects.
It's easy to automatically accept "cliches bad", but wait, is it true? Who would be pleased if games departed from cliches, exactly, and how pleased would they be?
People do hate things to be absolutely cookie-cutter in their implementation, but frankly every generation celebrates some work of fiction that wheels out a Shakespearian cliche and does it fantastically well, almost every movie works similarly to other movies of the genre, music is almost entirely derivative, FPS titles are... well you know and people enjoy all of these things immensely.
I'm not sure the "re-use of cliches and tropes is bad" argument is actually true for people in any real sense. They seem to really be OK with it.
The same thing is to be expected of RPG, surely.
Koire wrote...
3.
'Third options'. I think the game would be so much better if you
actually had to choose between elves and werewolves or Connor and his
mother instead of 'choosing' both.
Having more options is good,
having 'best options' is bad. Suppose you have two choices, Choice A has
pros and cons, and Choice B has pros and cons. You sit down and think
carefully what choice to make. But if you are presented with Choice C
that has pros of both A and B and cons of neither, the decision becomes
obvious and the 'choice' is effectively removed, unless you want to
roleplay a character whose intentions are other than simply 'good'.
I think I will mention in reference to this point, the highlighted text is what it hinges on for me and why I liked this, without trying to make it seem like your point is in some way wrong.
Choices which are related to my character's motivation (rather than what loot/storyline I will get in OOC consideration) are an important part of the RP furniture, because then you bother to have a character with motives. eg:I could go with choice C and get everything, but my char hates the people saved by choice B (or is a very bad person) and would much rather they all died, so choice A it is.
I'm not saying DA:O is perfect, but it was a really, really enjoyable game. It could have done with having its real (comparitively minor) shortcomings fixed though, rather than some of the changes that were made.
Having 6 party members and more classes/skills/spells would have been more impactful and improved the game more than everything that DA2 did, for instance.
Modifié par Gotholhorakh, 11 mars 2012 - 01:29 .
#18
Posté 11 mars 2012 - 01:17
Merilsell
-
- Members
- 2 926 messages
Koire wrote...
As someone who played DAO and DAA after DA2, I have to admit I don't understand all the praise for DAO either. I liked DA2 better.
5. Companion replies during dialogues with non-companion NPCs. I replayed DA2 with different parties just to see what would these companions say in certain situations. Some pairings (Anders and Fenris, Isabella and Aveline) were hilarious. And in DAO.. each time that the Warden engages into such a conversation all his/her companions step back and watch in silence. As if they are not there at all. The ability to talk to them in the camp doesn't cover it for me, you learn people by how they act in specific situations, not by simply chatting with them.
Somehow this makes me wonder how you managed to finish the whole game without getting one of the bazillion objections/ comments of the companions within? Wow...that is an achievement on its own, I guess.
Edit: Typo.
Modifié par Merilsell, 11 mars 2012 - 01:20 .
#19
Posté 11 mars 2012 - 01:20
turian councilor Knockout
-
- Members
- 1 127 messages
But why do i hate it so much !?!
#21
Posté 11 mars 2012 - 01:51
Koire
-
- Members
- 183 messages
Merilsell wrote...
Koire wrote...
As someone who played DAO and DAA after DA2, I have to admit I don't understand all the praise for DAO either. I liked DA2 better.
5. Companion replies during dialogues with non-companion NPCs. I replayed DA2 with different parties just to see what would these companions say in certain situations. Some pairings (Anders and Fenris, Isabella and Aveline) were hilarious. And in DAO.. each time that the Warden engages into such a conversation all his/her companions step back and watch in silence. As if they are not there at all. The ability to talk to them in the camp doesn't cover it for me, you learn people by how they act in specific situations, not by simply chatting with them.
Somehow this makes me wonder how you managed to finish the whole game without getting one of the bazillion objections/ comments of the companions within? Wow...that is an achievement on its own, I guess.
I am not saying that they are completely mute, but they make way less comments overall, at least it was noticable to me, and I played DAO immediately after DA2. May be it has to do with the composition of the party, I mostly took Alistair, Morrigan and Leliana along (+ my mage healer Warden).
Modifié par Koire, 11 mars 2012 - 01:56 .
#22
Posté 11 mars 2012 - 02:00
Wulfram
-
- Members
- 18 942 messages
I think it was a deliberate policy to have more interjections and less dialogues in camp. More interjections is good, obviously, but I'm not sure they quite got the balance right.
#23
Posté 11 mars 2012 - 03:33
Megaton_Hope
-
- Members
- 1 441 messages
The Darkspawn do sack Redcliffe, near the end, before you depart for Denerim for the final battle. As for why the Archdemon would wait to destroy Redcliffe, it seems to me that Redcliffe was pretty well on its way to being destroyed before the Warden came along, so it may have seemed unnecessary. (The Mages, Templars and Dalish would likewise take potentially unrecoverable losses.)
#24
Posté 11 mars 2012 - 03:46
mousestalker
-
- Members
- 16 945 messages
The major difference between DAO and DA2 for me has to do with customization, which in turn led to greater replayability. In DAO you could select from several different options for your starting character. Each had a different beginning story and they all had little bits dispersed amongst the main plot line.
In DA2 you could select your characters gender and class. The starting story changed only slightly as a result of those choices (Carver vs Bethany). This matters to players who play for the story.
In DA2 you could select your characters gender and class. The starting story changed only slightly as a result of those choices (Carver vs Bethany). This matters to players who play for the story.
#25
Posté 11 mars 2012 - 03:52
CuriousArtemis
-
- Members
- 19 644 messages
I'm not reading any of the wall of texts lol But I did see someone call this OP a troll, which confuses me. Maybe I don't understand the definition of "troll." I think this person is just confused why so many people dis DA2 and profess to love DA:O. It confuses me, too, because I also love DA2 and find DA:O quite ho-hum
Mostly I agree with everything Koire said. I also played DA2 first and DA:O second.
The silent protagonist is the main reason I haven't played DA:O again. It's so boring; I feel like my Warden is a shell of a person. Blah.
The story is okay, I guess. It reminds me of the fantasy books I read in high school. I wouldn't read anything like that again though. I guess I've moved beyond those simple kinds of narratives.
Some of the quests are too long. If there were no Fade quest, I might actually, maybe pick DA:O up again. But when I've got an hour or so before bed, and I think to myself, do I want to wander fruitlessly through the Fade for an hour ... or read my book? Book wins every time lol
Koire wrote...
As someone who played DAO and DAA after DA2, I have to admit I don't understand all the praise for DAO either. I liked DA2 better.
Mostly I agree with everything Koire said. I also played DA2 first and DA:O second.
The silent protagonist is the main reason I haven't played DA:O again. It's so boring; I feel like my Warden is a shell of a person. Blah.
The story is okay, I guess. It reminds me of the fantasy books I read in high school. I wouldn't read anything like that again though. I guess I've moved beyond those simple kinds of narratives.
Some of the quests are too long. If there were no Fade quest, I might actually, maybe pick DA:O up again. But when I've got an hour or so before bed, and I think to myself, do I want to wander fruitlessly through the Fade for an hour ... or read my book? Book wins every time lol
