231 réponses à ce sujet

[jbrand2002uk]

Then you also dont really get anywhere different in DAO either Whatever origin you pick you still become a Warden lose at Ostagar be saved by Flemeth Recruit the Dwarves Elves and city of Redcliffe into your army deal with Loghain and kill the Archdemon the only difference all your choices make is whether or not you or one of your companions die when the archdemon is slain and whether you become king/queen or stay just plain old Grey Warden

[GavrielKay]

You can choose whether to save the elves or werewolves or both. You can choose the King of Orzammar. You can choose whether to defile or preserve the sacred ashes.

Mostly, what I found better about DA:O is that where choices weren't available, it was given more back story, more of a reason why I couldn't change things. You are told you need supporting armies to defeat the blight... which armies and what order and such you can choose. You are told you need to jump through hoops to support a King for Orzammar before that king can provide you an army. The rails that we rode in DA:O were much more lushly decorated

I was never given a good reason why I couldn't pursue Ninette's murderer who ended up killing Hawke's mother. Or why I couldn't kill Petrice who antagonized the Qunari. There was no good reason why Orsino turned Harvester or why Meredith turns on Hawke even if you shout to the rooftops how right she was to grind the mages to dust. The rails in DA2 were in your face almost every step of the way.

[Viyu]

jbrand2002uk wrote...

Then you also dont really get anywhere different in DAO either Whatever origin you pick you still become a Warden lose at Ostagar be saved by Flemeth Recruit the Dwarves Elves and city of Redcliffe into your army deal with Loghain and kill the Archdemon the only difference all your choices make is whether or not you or one of your companions die when the archdemon is slain and whether you become king/queen or stay just plain old Grey Warden

The problem people have with Hawke is that the ending is linear, and the choices one makes throughout the game are almost entirely linear to reach that conclusion, let me clarify. There really aren't multiple endings. It's really just ONE. And the way you technically get there is ONE. If you saved Hawke's mother, if you could find a way to prevent Bethany or Carver from dying and going to the circle-- what would these impacts have to the ending? It's not enough to "just" make options in a story. That is, its not enough to make Hawke be able to prevent, and not prevent certain things. Its about being able to do different things, and in the end making those choices MATTER.

Whereas with the Warden choosing an Origin will have an impact on how things turn up in the end. Interacting with characters in the middle and end of the story has an impact on how things will end up-- or whether you'll end up dead, even. There were things that were outside of the Warden's control. Duncan would've conscripted you to save your life, the king was not going to budge in his overzealous dream of fighting the darkspawn, and Flemeth had plans of her own for you from the start.

Certain characters were unbendable, which shaped the story. However there was a lot of choices that you made before playing the game that would effect how things would turn out in the end. Your origin story determines if you'll be high nobility, or low-rank nobility at best. It directly impacts how the race of your Warden is treated, and doing things like hardening Alistair become important during the Landsmeet. These are just a few examples of how, even though there is a linear means of reaching the goal, there is a huge sense of choice throughout the game, where the impact can be seen midway or even at the end of the game.

Do I think Bioware handled the DA:O orgin stories like *I* would've wanted? Absolutely not. I think there should have been much more impact the origin stories provided-- maybe even some elven magic that could've made the warden the "beacon" rather than Morrigan's child, the city elves and the dalish teaming up against the humans,  or something interesting like that.

I think that the Warden's ability to have REAL choices that matter needs to come back. BUT Hawke's personality and temperament should come back too-- it just needs to have a bigger impact. I think that there should be a tree option like the original game where the character can choose something basic to say, but like DA2, it should also matter HOW you say it. Temperament in how you say things can affect people's attitudes towards your characters, which can affect your choices.

Modifié par Viyu, 14 mars 2012 - 01:29 .

[LobselVith8]

[quote]Mallgore wrote...

Now without mentioning anything but the narritive tell why Dragon age origins was better than Dragon age 2.

From what i just played through with Origins i have never been so pissed off with the way a game's narritive was presented in my entire life. [/quote]

Everyone has different tastes and different views. The schism between the people who agree with the templar position, and those who agree with the mage position, should be evidence of that. Personally, there was a lot that bothered me about the sequel to Dragon Age: Origins.

[quote]Mallgore wrote...

I'll keep this simple, if i write paragraphs people might get scared and run away like routed peasants.

My complaints

1. The introduction to every race is rushed and there is never enough time to know the characters you were with or give 2 dimes about anything they did. (Ie Human noble, Basically get introduced to family and 10 minutes later they're dead.) [/quote]

I respectfully disagree. I thought Dragon Age II was rushed, to the point where the death of the sibling has no impact because the person is a virtual stranger, while the respective "Origins" allowed the protagonist to build up a relationship to the people over time. In the Magi Origin, as the Surana protagonist, I got angry with Irving about the Rite, I worried about Jowan, I got to understand the different Fraternities of the Enchanters, I met an interesting demon named Mouse who made the mistake of wearing the wrong color robes in the Fade. There was depth. I didn't get that impression from Dragon Age II's prologue.

[quote]Mallgore wrote...

2. The Darkspawn are basically Mordor orc look alikes and are effectively braindead. What do i mean by braindead you ask? Well after the sacking of Lothering you'd think the Dark spawn and its blight would just start steam rolling over the majority of Fereldon. But for some reason the Dark spawn are either too slow or are effectively braindead and can't come to realise that nothing is stopping them from sacking Redcliff since it would be the obvious target for an assault. It would give them a staging ground as they would then advance to sack the mages tower and then Orzimmar. I say this because everyone in each region is either divided into feudes amongst themselves or is combating some problem in the area. Seriously why didn't the Dark spawn just have a non stop march and sack the majority of Fereldon? The only city with any real chance at survial is Denerirm. [/quote]

I thought the depiction of the darkspawn was more impressive in Origins - more frightening, while the darkspawn in Dragon Age II looked like they were from a He-Man cartoon.

As for the intelligence of the darkspawn, they won in Ostagar through making a clandestine tunnel into the heart of Ferelden's army, attacking from two different sides, and the Archdemon tricked the humans into thinking they would attack Redcliffe when the horde was actually heading to Denerim.

[quote]Mallgore wrote...

3. As much as Logain's plan might make sense he clearly doesn't remember the part where it explains that only grey wardens can kill the archdemon. What was he so full of himself that he beleived that he was the only one possible for the job? Either way the segment in the game where he puts a bounty on you doesn't make any sense when everyone knows that only a grey warden can end the blight.? [/quote]

Loghain isn't privy to the exact nature of why Grey Wardens are capable of defeating the Archdemons unless he's spared and made a Grey Warden (which is precisely what my Surana Warden did), and from prior experience with them, (in the book "The Calling") distrusts them.

[quote]Mallgore wrote...

4. The Arch demon. The best way to describe this thing is to call it a idiot who suffers from Sauron sydrome. This is a trait that an antagonist in this type of story possesses when they sit on their ass for the whole game and don't emerge until the end of the game for the final fight. It would of helped if the arch demon was a character. But sadly it isn't. And this creates yet another plot hole. How can something with clearly no sentient mind of any description control an army of mindless drones? The Arch demon does not once speak or do anything but roar like a monster. If the answer to this question is its magic then i will just ignore it because that is an A$inine excuse for a rated M game [/quote]

The Archdemon is sentient, the Archdemon simply isn't human, and doesn't communicate with humans - only darkspawn. Alistair makes a point of saying that some of the elder Wardens claim to understand what the Archdemon is saying.

[quote]Mallgore wrote...

5. The fact that this is rated M. From my understanding other rated t games have had as much blood or more than DAO. So why is it rated M? what because of the scenes where you bang the stool/intrest. It probably is but this is just angering. [/quote]

Isn't Dragon Age II rated M as well?

[quote]Mallgore wrote...

6. Retreading on points from #2, #3 and #4, The narritive of this game basically boils down to you getting the treaties from the areas around the map. While doing this you'd think that the darkspawn would be fast on your tracks right? Well no. For what ever reason the Dark spawn just camp in the ruins of Lothering while Gathering the treaties from everyone. Why they didn't sack Redcliff is beyond me. I guess a Wizard did it.  As i said in point 2 why the Arch demon didn't capitolize on the disarray of the country was beyond me. So are the Darkspawn just mindless monsters with no semblence of intelligence? Well that doesn't work because the Dark spawn can obviously craft weapons and armor to go into battle with. They have Alphas who act as Generals in a sense so they have to have some form of intelligence right? [/quote]

The darkspawn destroy different parts of Ferelden because they corrupt everything they touch - on the map, you see the Blight reaching outward as the progression of the darkspawn armies begin. The darkspawn reach out across the nation - from the Hinterlands (as seen in Stone Prison) to the borders of Orlais and Amaranthine. In order to deal with the Archdemon's eventual attack on Denerim (where the Archdemon deceives the humans into thinking the horde will attack Redcliffe), it takes the combined forces of the Redcliffe militia, and at least three other groups, to deal with the horde. And even then, it takes the defeat of the Archdemon to leave the darkspawn armies without a superior, sentient mind to command them in unison, leaving them vunerable.

[quote]Mallgore wrote...

7. The player character feels disjointed and removed from the plot. What i mean by this is that the player character acts as nothing more as a mirror for the player to click a dialogue option. The player character never once has any opportunity to grow or change at all or become stronger as a person. Minor i guess since most bioware games don't do it and i don't hold it against them most of the time. But with this game i need some redeeming factor here. [/quote]

The narrative allows the player to basically decide who The Warden is - what choices will be made, whether the protagonist is a firm believer or an atheist, who the protagonist will befriend and who he (or she) will become romantically involved with. I didn't have to deal with bad paraphrasing, I didn't have to worry about my protagonist saying things outside of my control, and I didn't feel like The Warden was Bioware's character rather than my own.

It comes down to opinions. I prefer the Origins type of storytelling in this type of RPG to the one we received in Dragon Age II, where Hawke was passive, allowed villains to walk away instead of stopping them (like Petrice), and didn't seem to do anything with his wealth aside from purchase an old mansion for his mother. I really didn't care for my Hawke, I didn't feel like my Champion accomplished anything important, while I felt like my Surana Warden irrevocably changed the lives of different societies across Ferelden. I had more respect for Merril and her pro-active attempts to help the People than I did about my Champion of Kirkwall.

Again, these are simply my opinions.

[quote]Mallgore wrote...

8. Since the Dark Spawn are effectively camping for most of the game we never see them do anything malicious or any moment where they do something to show how twisted they are. After Ostagar we don't see the darkspawn in the plot again until the deeproads in Orzimmar and Denerim for the final battle. [/quote]

I don't see the other stories as an issue. We get to see different stories instead. We get to see the mage rebellion in the Circle Tower, we get to see the schism with the Dalish elves and the cursed werewolves, we get to see the village of Redcliffe on the brink of despair, and there are smaller side-stories within that narrative. I actually wish that the civil war was expanded on in the narrative, rather than left as one side-quest on the Chantry Board.

[quote]Mallgore wrote...

9. Speaking of the final battle why does the arch demon even show up at all? the darkspawn are clearly mowing down everyone and the numbers just pour in like rabbits. When the Archdemon does finally show up he dies in a boss fight and all the Darkspawn retreat completely oblvious to the world around them like the Orcs did from lord of the rings at the end. [/quote]

Since the griffins are all extinct (as far as we know), leaving the Wardens with no aerial flight capabilities, I doubt the Archdemon suspected that Riordian would be lucky and cut it's wing.

[quote]Mallgore wrote...

10. Magic is no excuse for plot holes.

alright tell me what you think. i am curious[/quote]

That's my issue with Dragon Age II , since magic is used to propel the story forward, rather than character motivation - namely, the Idol that possesses Meredith.

[TEWR]

GavrielKay wrote...

You are told you need to jump through hoops to support a King for Orzammar before that king can provide you an army. The rails that we rode in DA:O were much more lushly decorated

I will always maintain that Dwarf Nobles should've been able to take the throne of Orzammar upon returning. The Dwarven politics makes it so painfully obvious it's not even funny.

*has eternal hatred for the Orzammar quest chain for Dwarf Nobles, making it a mediocre quest for that specific Warden*

[deneroo]

 it was a great exeperience

[TEWR]

who cares if the economy is broken. That's honestly nothing major.

[DarkAmaranth1966]

I that makes a broken economy, then every nation in our world has a broken economy as well since I know I can't afford every fancy set of clothing and jewelry I want to try and see what it does for me and, I doubt anyone here can afford everything in our world either.

To me seeing and not being able to afford things is realistic.

[Yrkoon]

Realistic or not, The way Bioware addressed the economy/money issue in DA was mindnumbingly hamfisted and uncreative.

1) DLC items, powerful Legendary named artifacts are worth.... 1 copper to merchants. (DA2)
2) So... often times you can't afford everything that a merchant sells... and that's fine, wonderful even....except that other people in the game world CAN, apparently, since if you visit that same merchant a few game days later, that Item you had your eye on is no longer in his stock. (DA2)
3) By act 2, you're supposed to be a member of the upper class/nobility. And to add to your wealth, you're also traveling with an entire party of individuals, some of them also rich (Prince Sabastian, and well connected spy-master Varric. to name a couple) Yet you STILL won't be able to afford that Ornate Ring or Rogue's dagger that the commoner merchant in Lowtown is selling. Yeah, that's realistic. (DA2)
4) In DA:O, after Ostagar, Backpacks cost 6 sovereigns. Is that realistic too? When was the last time you went to Walmart and found a backpack (or any portable physical storage item) on sale for 6 hundred dollars?

Modifié par Yrkoon, 14 mars 2012 - 11:31 .

[Megaton_Hope]

I think that DA:O is pretty screwed up when it comes to money. Not so much that you can't get it, although some of the things that you can do to make money aren't especially obvious. (Saving up 40 sovereigns for Rogek never occurred to me before meeting Rogek, for example.)

But the shops are horrible. You can sell things to the shops to make money, sure...for a small fraction of what you could buy that item for from that shop. Most clearly bizarre in the case of the Reaper's Cudgel, which I can sell for a few hundred sovereigns (yay!) and buy for a few thousand. (Riiiight.) This is not how profit margins work in the real world.

Fortunately, you find enough weapons and armor that you almost never need to buy from shops, and if you are a competent min/maxer, you'll practically never be hurt.

[dragonflight288]

Economy is broken in DA:O

Have you heard? There's a civil war and a blight spreading through the land. You can expect inflation. We even get a hint of it with the merchant in Lothering who charges exorbitant prices to refugees for things they desperately need. True we can resolve that situation, but what's stopping other merchants from doing the same? Same thing in real life. In times of war or strife, prices rise.

Modifié par dragonflight288, 15 mars 2012 - 03:02 .

[Kavatica]

Wait, did someone not like Origins? *baffled*

Modifié par Kavatica, 15 mars 2012 - 03:06 .

[Kavatica]

Mallgore wrote...

1. The introduction to every race is rushed and there is never enough time to know the characters you were with or give 2 dimes about anything they did. (Ie Human noble, Basically get introduced to family and 10 minutes later they're dead.)

If your Origin story is taking you 10 minutes to play through, you are missing a lot. Try walking around and talking to other characters and exploring. Seriously, the Cousland origin should be taking you at least an hour, unless you are speeding through it and then of course you don't feel attached to any of the characters - you are missing out on half of the conversations that make you care about them in the first place.

[TEWR]

If the backpacks were enchanted -- and really I'd expect them to be if I can carry 10 suits of heavy plate armor -- then the price would be justified later on.

That's why in my fanfic all backpacks Merlinize* any items put into them.

*By Merlinize I mean shrink until they're pulled out at a later time.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 15 mars 2012 - 03:22 .

[dragonflight288]

How many backpacks can hold such heavy equipment without stumbling? Or have so much room for so much stuff?

[Kavatica]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

If the backpacks were enchanted -- and really I'd expect them to be if I can carry 10 suits of heavy plate armor -- then the price would be justified later on.

That's why in my fanfic all backpacks Merlinize* any items put into them.

*By Merlinize I mean shrink until they're pulled out at a later time.

Awwwwwesome.

[Megaton_Hope]

It's not actually required to finish Redcliffe before Haven, you just need to have talked to the right folks in Lothering, and been to Genitivi's house in Denerim. You do, though, have to fight your way through a very time-consuming dungeon full of powerful enemies.

A stop-off in Haven, long enough to loot the Diligence armor, is a pretty good early game move. Never personally got much use out of Wade's (Origins) armors, although I do insist on making them.