222 réponses à ce sujet

[ecarden]

Okay, so the holographic kid says, essentially, the Crucible proves that the cycle is broken (Why? He could just wait for the Reapers to destroy your fleets, then blow it up) and that therefore, he's giving you three choices.

Putting aside the stupidity of the choices, why would Shepard believe that? The kid admitted to controlling the Reapers, does he really think it's going to say: 'You win, just push that button and we're all toast'?

For that matter, why would Shepard believe that bull**** about the inevitability of Synthetics destroying organics? Besides the Reapers, the only other model we have are the Geth, who, until the Reapers started messing around with them, at Space God's commmand, were just staying home and building themselves a ship that could house all of them.

In all the choices you make, you essentially do the Reaper's work for them, destroying galactic civilization (via the Mass Relay explosions that, as we saw in Arrival, destroy the system they're in). This makes sense as the choices are offered to you by a being that ADMITS BEING IN CHARGE OF THE REAPERS.

WHY IN THE NAME OF ALL THAT'S GOOD AND RIGHT IN THE GALAXY WOULD SHEPARD TRUST ANYTHING THAT CAME OUT OF THAT GENOCIDAL LITTLE RUNT'S MOUTH?

PS: Even if, magically (and seeing as how space god can rewrite everyone's DNA, bull****, I can, Bull****, believe that, BULL****) the relays don't explode as we saw in Arrival, the Citidel does, while in low Earth orbit. The damn thing weighs 7.11 billion metric tons. What do you think that does to the fleet fighting around it? What does it do to Earth? Take back Earth? Nothing left to rescue, Bioware.

[Der Estr Bune]

Employing the Reapers =/= being the Reapers. God-Child says that the Reapers are just what he uses to do what he needs to do, except he doesn't need to do it anymore because the cycle is no longer an answer.

Hypothetical situation: You have a hatchet that you use to cut down trees, but one day you suffer a major injury and will never cut down trees again. Would you be terribly upset if someone wanted to take the hatchet that you no longer have any use for?

EDIT

Besides the Reapers, the only other model we have are the Geth, who, until the Reapers started messing around with them, at Space God's commmand, were just staying home and building themselves a ship that could house all of them. 

I will admit, I had not actually considered that the Geth hostilities caused by the "Old Machines" was in turn caused by God-Child. Somehow I hadn't made that connection.

Modifié par Der Estr Bune, 11 mars 2012 - 03:12 .

[The Angry One]

That he's not a Reaper is irrelevant. He makes them do what they do. It's HIS fault.
And his entire stance is complete nonsense. He's disproved by events in the game.
Most shockingly of all, HE CONTRADICTS HIMSELF. HE IS SYNTHETIC. HE WANTS TO PRESERVE ORGANIC LIFE.

He basically lies to Shepard's face, and Shep just accepts it. Again, Shep gives in to the resident monster. It's unbelievable.

[legion999]

I thought this was going to be some anti- religious bull. I'm glad I was wrong. Anyway you basically summarised the illogic in the ending(s).

[NicoNicastro]

My question is where did he come from?

[Citizen Q]

The Angry One wrote...

That he's not a Reaper is irrelevant. He makes them do what they do. It's HIS fault.
And his entire stance is complete nonsense. He's disproved by events in the game.
Most shockingly of all, HE CONTRADICTS HIMSELF. HE IS SYNTHETIC. HE WANTS TO PRESERVE ORGANIC LIFE.

He basically lies to Shepard's face, and Shep just accepts it. Again, Shep gives in to the resident monster. It's unbelievable.

The only response I have to this is, thank you.

[MrChowderClam]

NicoNicastro wrote...

My question is where did he come from?

I thought he was the first reaper. Or rather, the consciousness of the race who created the reapers and controls them.

[Citizen Q]

NicoNicastro wrote...

My question is where did he come from?

Don't care, he is a genocidal little bast4rd and shep should have blown his smug self-righteous face off.

[Evil_medved]

Der Estr Bune wrote...

Employing the Reapers =/= being the Reapers. God-Child says that the Reapers are just what he uses to do what he needs to do, except he doesn't need to do it anymore because the cycle is no longer an answer.

Hypothetical situation: You have a hatchet that you use to cut down trees, but one day you suffer a major injury and will never cut down trees again. Would you be terribly upset if someone wanted to take the hatchet that you no longer have any use for?

I still have no idead why cycle is "no longer an option" only coz one barely alive half-mad guy made it to the throne room. Kill the guy, keep the cycle, what the problem?

[nhcre8tv1]

I really don't care about that damn kid. And he was the Citadel the whole time. Rageface.jpeg.

[Der Estr Bune]

Evil_medved wrote...

I still have no idead why cycle is "no longer an option" only coz one barely alive half-mad guy made it to the throne room. Kill the guy, keep the cycle, what the problem?

One guy made it and figured out the answer, after all of civilization got together to piece together answers in a few months. Presumably, given that things keep advancing, the next cycle will build upon technically already successful information to more thoroughly counter the cycle.

Basically, if one guy made it this time, and things get more advanced every cycle, more guys make it next time. Is how I took it, at least.

[HrzRanok]

Simple answer. Guardian was there before the reapers were in place. A time that we do not know what happened. He saw what WILL happen if life is left to evolve on its own. Basically there will be no peace, eventually synthetics will take over and kill everything.
The guardian has to be believe, and shephard believes him as well because he knows this is the only person who would have that kind of knowledge to know what will happen if the cycle is ended and organics are left free to evolve and create a synthetic life form that would wipe out everything.

There is little reason NOT to believe it.

Modifié par HrzRanok, 11 mars 2012 - 03:17 .

[Greed1914]

The Angry One wrote...

That he's not a Reaper is irrelevant. He makes them do what they do. It's HIS fault.
And his entire stance is complete nonsense. He's disproved by events in the game.
Most shockingly of all, HE CONTRADICTS HIMSELF. HE IS SYNTHETIC. HE WANTS TO PRESERVE ORGANIC LIFE.

He basically lies to Shepard's face, and Shep just accepts it. Again, Shep gives in to the resident monster. It's unbelievable.

It's true.  Not only do we have our own proof that his premise is flawed, but he is a walking contradiction.  So, there is just one enlightened AI that understands the value of organics?  It's inconceivable to this being that other AI's could also see the value? 

[Citizen Q]

nhcre8tv1 wrote...

I really don't care about that damn kid. And he was the Citadel the whole time. Rageface.jpeg.

Lol, has been my avatar here for years, never been more applicable.

funny thing was it was adopted in mockery of all the people here who got way to bent out of shape over stuff.

You can imagine my chagrin...

[raeting]

Shepard doesn't have much choice. They have a pistol, and the citadel isn't killing reapers. Shooting at the Citadel is unlikely to do anything, so might as well try what the Guardian says.

Still, that distrust is a big reason why I went for destruction, myself.

[ecarden]

HrzRanok wrote...

Simple answer. Guardian was there before the reapers in place. A time that we do not know what happened. He saw what WILL happen if life is left to evolve on its own. Basically there will be no peace, eventually synthetics will take over and kill everything.
The guardian has to be believe and shephard believes him as well because he knows this is the only person who would have the kind of knowledge to know what will happen if the cycle if ended and organics are left free to evolve and create a synthetic life form that would wipe out everything.

There is little reason NOT to believe it.

You assert this, but we have no evidence for it. Shepard doesn't even ask for evidence of it. 

Moreover, the guardian can't have evidence for it, as if it actually happened, there would have been no game...the synthetics would have destroyed everything, not just the advanced species. Moreover, if it was inevitable, wouldn't it happen in most cycles? If so, how are the Reapers still around? They take casualties most cycles and replace them with Reapers created from organics. If it's really inevitable, you'd think it would happen in most 50,000 year cycles, in which case the Reapers would take casualties from the previous cycles version of the Geth with no way to replace them. That's putting aside the fact that they would also, if he were right, destroy all organic life, which as the game takes place can't have happened.

Why would Shepard believe a being that admits to being in charge of his enemies? It has every incentive to lie, especially as in essentially all endings the one person whose in a position to use the crucible (maybe) will die.

ETA: Second paragraph, more clearly: Space god says it's inevitable, when it can't have ever happened. Fine.

Shepard doesn't point out the window at the Geth and Quarians fighting alongside one another--WTF?

Modifié par ecarden, 11 mars 2012 - 03:23 .

[nitefyre410]

Its he a Reaper no.

he is the one pulling the Reapers strings and what worse is the for a God/AI that millions of years old he is a complete moron.

"Organics and Synthetics will destroy each other." He is very absolute in the statement.. never realizing the Geth and EDI so that synthetics can evolve and be accepted as it own form of life. Double noted about the Geth because they backed off at the end of the Morning War. The Geth have stated that they would defend themselves but they simple wanted to left in peace. So its more Organics will destroy synthetics and this brat is just an AI running scared and using to really broken logic.. It like its looked into this only outcome because that was the outcome of the ones the created IT. Never considering that through choice the comes can change.

So Nathaniel Shepard the man that defied all odds, a street rat from slums of the Earth. A man resolved conflict over 1000 years old, a man who provide the Man and Machine can live together and her got the girl in the process. Now has pick the fate of the Galaxy based on the broken logic of a broken computer..

and this how the world ends not with a bang but a whimper... these endings make my head hurt.

[Biotic Sage]

Who says Shepard believes him? He literally has NO OTHER CHOICE. He can either make the leap of faith on what the Catalyst says or he can watch Earth burn. Seriously people.

[HKR148]

ecarden wrote...

HrzRanok wrote...

Simple answer. Guardian was there before the reapers in place. A time that we do not know what happened. He saw what WILL happen if life is left to evolve on its own. Basically there will be no peace, eventually synthetics will take over and kill everything.
The guardian has to be believe and shephard believes him as well because he knows this is the only person who would have the kind of knowledge to know what will happen if the cycle if ended and organics are left free to evolve and create a synthetic life form that would wipe out everything.

There is little reason NOT to believe it.

You assert this, but we have no evidence for it. Shepard doesn't even ask for evidence of it. 

Moreover, the guardian can't have evidence for it, as if it actually happened, there would have been no game...the synthetics would have destroyed everything, not just the advanced species. Moreover, if it was inevitable, wouldn't it happen in most cycles? If so, how are the Reapers still around? They take casualties most cycles and replace them with Reapers created from organics. If it's really inevitable, you'd think it would happen in most 50,000 year cycles, in which case the Reapers would take casualties from the previous cycles version of the Geth with no way to replace them. That's putting aside the fact that they would also, if he were right, destroy all organic life, which as the game takes place can't have happened.

Why would Shepard believe a being that admits to being in charge of his enemies? It has every incentive to lie, especially as in essentially all endings the one person whose in a position to use the crucible (maybe) will die.

ETA: Second paragraph, more clearly: Space god says it's inevitable, when it can't have ever happened. Fine.

Shepard doesn't point out the window at the Geth and Quarians fighting alongside one another--WTF?

The whole plot, Geth/Quarian, Turian/Krogan, Overall Galactic Alliance Plot, Cerberus/Humanity were the plots that Shepard set out to solve. The whole story was building up to the point where pretty much the theme was that "the cycle is about to break because we have Shepard, who managed to unite everyone, managed to make truce between Geth/Quarian and manage to take down the indoctrinated opposition." (even the Prothean tells you that what you have done was something that never was done in any of the cycles they've analyzed) yet at the end, the vent-kid asserts that nothing Shepard has done matters little. Do you see the glaring contradiction between the ideals that ME3 was building up to and the forced conclusion that we had to take at the abrupt end? That's what makes me absolutely angry.

Modifié par HKR148, 11 mars 2012 - 03:28 .

[Citizen Q]

A more potent question, Why would Shep ever believe a word out of the little bast4rds mouth after he just admitted to being the architect of the cycles. This means he is responsible for the death and destruction of not just innumerable beings, but INNUMERABLE CIVILIZATIONS.

Stop and think about that for a minute. This thing just admitted to killing so many beings that most people don't even know the names of the numbers need to quantify it, and Shep just says, "yea, okay, fvck it. time to get myself killed and end galactic civilization all because the little godkid reaper bast4rd told me to"

Modifié par Citizen Q, 11 mars 2012 - 03:28 .

[lasertank]

The plot is flawed, contrived, and cheap. Shepard would never believe the kid AI in less than 1 minute. That contradicts his own characteristic and personality. What about the "we fight or we die" slogan? After solving so many conflicts in the universe, how could and would he be persuaded by the the load of crap given by the kid AI? We hate the final chapter because it's illogical and makes no sense. We DO NOT want a brighter one but a more reasonable one.

[ecarden]

Biotic Sage wrote...

Who says Shepard believes him? He literally has NO OTHER CHOICE. He can either make the leap of faith on what the Catalyst says or he can watch Earth burn. Seriously people.

No other choice? Dude, my Shepard talked an indoctrinated Saren into blowing his brains out, convinced Geth and Quarian to work together and Jack that he loved her and wasn't just using her. His greatest weapon was his tongue, not his gun and after everything he says: yes, space god, as you say space god?

No.

He says: Look out the window. You can see Quarians and Geth, Organics and Synthetics alike, fighting to stop you. Fighting together. Despite what your tools did, despite the treachery, the lies and the mind control of the Reapers, we found each other and stand against you, as one. Perhaps in your cycle it was inevitable, but it wasn't and isn't in ours. We are not you. Do not punish us for the actions of others. Stand down. Watch. If you are right, then they will turn on us and you can return, we can't stop you anymore than the Protheans, or anyone else could. What does it cost you to test your hypothesis that this is inevitable?

[Steptroll]

Greed1914 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

That he's not a Reaper is irrelevant. He makes them do what they do. It's HIS fault.
And his entire stance is complete nonsense. He's disproved by events in the game.
Most shockingly of all, HE CONTRADICTS HIMSELF. HE IS SYNTHETIC. HE WANTS TO PRESERVE ORGANIC LIFE.

He basically lies to Shepard's face, and Shep just accepts it. Again, Shep gives in to the resident monster. It's unbelievable.

It's true.  Not only do we have our own proof that his premise is flawed, but he is a walking contradiction.  So, there is just one enlightened AI that understands the value of organics?  It's inconceivable to this being that other AI's could also see the value? 

I think you guys are trying to put something inherently incomprehensible to us into terms that you can understand. (Reapers reminding us that their motivations cannot be understood by mere mortals.) Asking about the nature of the child and about his motivations is akin to asking the same about God. 

We don't have enough information to solidly conclude upon his nature and motivations. He might not be synthetic for all we know. He might be the collective consciousness of the species that built the reapers. He might be a hyper advanced VI. He might be an omnipotent entity who exists JUST BECAUSE. We can't say for sure.

[SJK93]

The Guardian was wrong, in my opinion. Shepard was able (or is able, at the very least) to make peace between the Geth and Quarians. War between organics and synthetics is not inevitable, as the Guardian believes.

[HrzRanok]

HKR148 wrote...

ecarden wrote...

HrzRanok wrote...

Simple answer. Guardian was there before the reapers in place. A time that we do not know what happened. He saw what WILL happen if life is left to evolve on its own. Basically there will be no peace, eventually synthetics will take over and kill everything.
The guardian has to be believe and shephard believes him as well because he knows this is the only person who would have the kind of knowledge to know what will happen if the cycle if ended and organics are left free to evolve and create a synthetic life form that would wipe out everything.

There is little reason NOT to believe it.

You assert this, but we have no evidence for it. Shepard doesn't even ask for evidence of it. 

Moreover, the guardian can't have evidence for it, as if it actually happened, there would have been no game...the synthetics would have destroyed everything, not just the advanced species. Moreover, if it was inevitable, wouldn't it happen in most cycles? If so, how are the Reapers still around? They take casualties most cycles and replace them with Reapers created from organics. If it's really inevitable, you'd think it would happen in most 50,000 year cycles, in which case the Reapers would take casualties from the previous cycles version of the Geth with no way to replace them. That's putting aside the fact that they would also, if he were right, destroy all organic life, which as the game takes place can't have happened.

Why would Shepard believe a being that admits to being in charge of his enemies? It has every incentive to lie, especially as in essentially all endings the one person whose in a position to use the crucible (maybe) will die.

ETA: Second paragraph, more clearly: Space god says it's inevitable, when it can't have ever happened. Fine.

Shepard doesn't point out the window at the Geth and Quarians fighting alongside one another--WTF?

The whole plot, Geth/Quarian, Turian/Krogan, Overall Galactic Alliance Plot, Cerberus/Humanity were the plots that Shepard set out to solve. The whole story was building up to the point where pretty much the theme was that "the cycle is about to break because we have Shepard, who managed to unite everyone, managed to make truce between Geth/Quarian and manage to take down the indoctrinated opposition." (even the Prothean tells you that what you have done was something that never was done in any of the cycles they've analyzed) yet at the end, the vent-kid asserts that nothing Shepard has done matters little. Do you see the glaring contradiction between the ideals that ME3 was building up to and the forced conclusion that we had to take at the abrupt end? That's what makes me absolutely angry.

The guardian never asserts that what shephard did meant little as again we don't know what happens to the other species after this event.

The guardian has little reason to lie or decieve shephard at all. Basically because no matter what the cycle was ending and what happens next is up to shephard, the guardian has little motivation to simply lie. And yes there was plenty of evidence to prove what the Guardian was saying was true. Namely when Shephard asked the reaper back on Ranoch why it was doing all this it gave him the straight answer, "to prevent chaos". If you look at Shephards reaction to that you would understand he was starting to figure out alot of this. Him meeting the guardian only confirmed what he already knew. The guardian had first hand knowledge of the galaxy before the reapers and shephard asked the guardian repeatedly what would happen with all three scenarios and the guardian explained it all. Even a solutuion that the guardian was unsure about.

Also. Shephard is NOT dead. He lives on, just not in a human capacity. He is still alive I am amazed people didn't get that.

I am definately not going to be able to convince anyone that the ending was as close to reality as it could have been. i just want Bioware to know that at least one intelligent person got it.