222 réponses à ce sujet

[Xellith]

The starkid clearly says he is in control of the reapers. He even refers to himself as one when talking about the illusive man. "he could never control us because we controlled him" or something to that effect. Im paraphrasing.

The ending was just terribly done and nothing they can do will fix it short of adding an epilogue or reworking the ending. Its just crap.

[askanec]

ecarden wrote...

askanec wrote...

You do not believe the Catalyst is telling the truth. Yet, I ask, what evidence can the Catalyst produce that will make you believe he's telling the truth? You've already decided from the start he's lying, without any evidence.

Well, he controls the Reapers, genocidal monsters famous for mind control, espionage and, what was it? GENOCIDE. WHY WOULD SHEPARD BELIEVE HIM?

The Catalyst states that harvesting the advanced races through the Reapers was his solution. You believe him right there, yet you think the Catalyst somehow wishes to lie when he presented the choices to Shepard?

If the Catalyst is still bent on his original plan, he need not do anything or tell Shepard anything, The Reapers had already won. What would he gain by lying? That is not to say I believe he's telling the truth. Yet, there must be some kind of logical reason or motivation for him to lie when victory is at hand.

And as mentioned, there is no definite evidence to tell either way whether he's lying or not.

[Citizen Q]

HrzRanok wrote...

Citizen Q wrote...

HrzRanok wrote...

HKR148 wrote...

ecarden wrote...

HrzRanok wrote...

Simple
answer. Guardian was there before the reapers in place. A time that we
do not know what happened. He saw what WILL happen if life is left to
evolve on its own. Basically there will be no peace, eventually
synthetics will take over and kill everything.
The guardian has to
be believe and shephard believes him as well because he knows this is
the only person who would have the kind of knowledge to know what will
happen if the cycle if ended and organics are left free to evolve and
create a synthetic life form that would wipe out everything.

There is little reason NOT to believe it.

You assert this, but we have no evidence for it. Shepard doesn't even ask for evidence of it. 

Moreover,
the guardian can't have evidence for it, as if it actually happened,
there would have been no game...the synthetics would have destroyed
everything, not just the advanced species. Moreover, if it was
inevitable, wouldn't it happen in most cycles? If so, how are the
Reapers still around? They take casualties most cycles and replace them
with Reapers created from organics. If it's really inevitable, you'd
think it would happen in most 50,000 year cycles, in which case the
Reapers would take casualties from the previous cycles version of the
Geth with no way to replace them. That's putting aside the fact that
they would also, if he were right, destroy all organic life, which as
the game takes place can't have happened.

Why would Shepard
believe a being that admits to being in charge of his enemies? It has
every incentive to lie, especially as in essentially all endings the one
person whose in a position to use the crucible (maybe) will die.

ETA: Second paragraph, more clearly: Space god says it's inevitable, when it can't have ever happened. Fine.

Shepard doesn't point out the window at the Geth and Quarians fighting alongside one another--WTF?

The
whole plot, Geth/Quarian, Turian/Krogan, Overall Galactic Alliance
Plot, Cerberus/Humanity were the plots that Shepard set out to solve.
The whole story was building up to the point where pretty much the theme
was that "the cycle is about to break because we have Shepard, who
managed to unite everyone, managed to make truce between Geth/Quarian
and manage to take down the indoctrinated opposition." (even the
Prothean tells you that what you have done was something that never was
done in any of the cycles they've analyzed) yet at the end, the vent-kid
asserts that nothing Shepard has done matters little. Do you see the
glaring contradiction between the ideals that ME3 was building up to and
the forced conclusion that we had to take at the abrupt end? That's
what makes me absolutely angry.

The guardian never
asserts that what shephard did meant little as again we don't know what
happens to the other species after this event.

The guardian has
little reason to lie or decieve shephard at all. Basically because no
matter what the cycle was ending and what happens next is up to
shephard, the guardian has little motivation to simply lie. And yes
there was plenty of evidence to prove what the Guardian was saying was
true. Namely when Shephard asked the reaper back on Ranoch why it was
doing all this it gave him the straight answer, "to prevent chaos". If
you look at Shephards reaction to that you would understand he was
starting to figure out alot of this. Him meeting the guardian only
confirmed what he already knew. The guardian had first hand knowledge of
the galaxy before the reapers and shephard asked the guardian
repeatedly what would happen with all three scenarios and the guardian
explained it all. Even a solutuion that the guardian was unsure about.

Also. Shephard is NOT dead. He lives on, just not in a human capacity. He is still alive I am amazed people didn't get that.

I
am definately not going to be able to convince anyone that the ending
was as close to reality as it could have been. i just want Bioware to
know that at least one intelligent person got it.

Suggesting that people who didn't like the ending are not intelligent: how droll.

Not at all. Everyone has been making good points in opposition. I just want to hear one that says something outside of "We wanted shephard to live.."

Shephard did live and earth was saved. If you don't realize that then yah I would say intelligence was not in your stat roll.

Even in the best ending, Earth is in some seriously deep shi1t.

All it's infrastructure is severely damaged due to reapers, plus many hundreds of ships destroyed in orbit with eezo going everywhere. Add to this debacle the combine fleets of every major power in the galaxy now stuck in sol due to the destuction of the relays along with a fleet of what has to be mostly pirates and murderers, with the one stabilizing factor, Shepard, being either dead or incapable of helping due to incapacitation, and I fail to see how anyone with a modicum of intelligence could think Earth was "saved".

Not to mention that in order to "save" Earth, Shep straight up ended Galactic Civilization and made all the work he did to reconcile the races of the galaxy pointless, all because some damn Reaper God Child said so.

Yea, real intelligent.

Modifié par Citizen Q, 11 mars 2012 - 03:55 .

[dkear1]

HrzRanok wrote...
The guardian never asserts that what shephard did meant little as again we don't know what happens to the other species after this event.

The guardian has little reason to lie or decieve shephard at all. Basically because no matter what the cycle was ending and what happens next is up to shephard, the guardian has little motivation to simply lie. And yes there was plenty of evidence to prove what the Guardian was saying was true. Namely when Shephard asked the reaper back on Ranoch why it was doing all this it gave him the straight answer, "to prevent chaos". If you look at Shephards reaction to that you would understand he was starting to figure out alot of this. Him meeting the guardian only confirmed what he already knew. The guardian had first hand knowledge of the galaxy before the reapers and shephard asked the guardian repeatedly what would happen with all three scenarios and the guardian explained it all. Even a solutuion that the guardian was unsure about.

Also. Shephard is NOT dead. He lives on, just not in a human capacity. He is still alive I am amazed people didn't get that.

I am definately not going to be able to convince anyone that the ending was as close to reality as it could have been. i just want Bioware to know that at least one intelligent person got it.

The flaw in this logic and the logic of the little punk kid is that this whole chaos belief.  It is not a fact.  Truly it is little more than fear mongering which is not at all logical for an intelliengent AI.  What is thought to be true is not neccessarily a fact.  Cases in point in the real world are all over the place. Medicine contains numereous examples of this as well as Science.  Hell, Shepard proves that peace can be brokered if you choose the right options and the end game ignores this completely.  What might have been true in the guardians time is not eternal truth.

And I hardly define Shepard being "alive".  What makes Shepard, himself/herself are their experiences/emotions/relationships - which apparently are gone in the transition.....otherwise how can one justifiy the genonicide without being complete void of those things.  Especially when it was "forced on them against their will".  Sorry, the logic is just to flawed for me to swallow.

Modifié par dkear1, 11 mars 2012 - 03:57 .

[Thunder AI]

HrzRanok wrote...

Citizen Q wrote...

askanec wrote...

You do not believe the Catalyst is telling the truth. Yet, I ask, what evidence can the Catalyst produce that will make you believe he's telling the truth? You've already decided from the start he's lying, without any evidence.

He's behind the Reapers?

That seems like more than suffecient evidence.

Yes and no.
Important fact I have been trying to say from the beginning. The reapers were a solution originally intended to "uplift" not indoctrinate the species that had advanced and push them to the next level of evolution.
Somewhere this got corrupted, as the guardian said, and now it was not harvesting but indoctrination. A method the guardian said was not intended.

So the reapers were a creation, but somewhere along the way they got out of the control of the guardian and went and began t subjugate and destory instead of uplifting.

He never says anything about a system getting corrupted, If he had there would be even more issues with the ending than there is now.  All he says it thats the reapers uplift advanced civilizations to protect them.  If you can pinpoint where he says therir corrupted then id like to hear it. 

[ecarden]

askanec wrote...

ecarden wrote...

askanec wrote...

You do not believe the Catalyst is telling the truth. Yet, I ask, what evidence can the Catalyst produce that will make you believe he's telling the truth? You've already decided from the start he's lying, without any evidence.

Well, he controls the Reapers, genocidal monsters famous for mind control, espionage and, what was it? GENOCIDE. WHY WOULD SHEPARD BELIEVE HIM?

The Catalyst states that harvesting the advanced races through the Reapers was his solution. You believe him right there, yet you think the Catalyst somehow wishes to lie when he presented the choices to Shepard?

If the Catalyst is still bent on his original plan, he need not do anything or tell Shepard anything, The Reapers had already won. What would he gain by lying? That is not to say I believe he's telling the truth. Yet, there must be some kind of logical reason or motivation for him to lie when victory is at hand.

And as mentioned, there is no definite evidence to tell either way whether he's lying or not.

And, again, I'm not claiming he's lying. I'm asking why Shepard, who has spent the past three years fighting against these ****s would believe him? 

Analogy: An allied soldier in WW2 catches Hitler. You think he's going to believe that **** if he says the sky is blue? Let alone, go jump in that mysterious light because I saw so?

Maybe those really are the only options, but he's not even allowed to question? To argue?

No, honestly, screw that. If they want to send a deterministic pseudo-religious message, fine, but my Shepard ought to be able to at least acknowledge that it's crap.

Editted for typo: along and alone are not the same thing...

Modifié par ecarden, 11 mars 2012 - 03:56 .

[HKR148]

HrzRanok wrote...

Citizen Q wrote...

HrzRanok wrote...

HKR148 wrote...

The
whole plot, Geth/Quarian, Turian/Krogan, Overall Galactic Alliance
Plot, Cerberus/Humanity were the plots that Shepard set out to solve.
The whole story was building up to the point where pretty much the theme
was that "the cycle is about to break because we have Shepard, who
managed to unite everyone, managed to make truce between Geth/Quarian
and manage to take down the indoctrinated opposition." (even the
Prothean tells you that what you have done was something that never was
done in any of the cycles they've analyzed) yet at the end, the vent-kid
asserts that nothing Shepard has done matters little. Do you see the
glaring contradiction between the ideals that ME3 was building up to and
the forced conclusion that we had to take at the abrupt end? That's
what makes me absolutely angry.

The guardian never
asserts that what shephard did meant little as again we don't know what
happens to the other species after this event.

The guardian has
little reason to lie or decieve shephard at all. Basically because no
matter what the cycle was ending and what happens next is up to
shephard, the guardian has little motivation to simply lie. And yes
there was plenty of evidence to prove what the Guardian was saying was
true. Namely when Shephard asked the reaper back on Ranoch why it was
doing all this it gave him the straight answer, "to prevent chaos". If
you look at Shephards reaction to that you would understand he was
starting to figure out alot of this. Him meeting the guardian only
confirmed what he already knew. The guardian had first hand knowledge of
the galaxy before the reapers and shephard asked the guardian
repeatedly what would happen with all three scenarios and the guardian
explained it all. Even a solutuion that the guardian was unsure about.

Also. Shephard is NOT dead. He lives on, just not in a human capacity. He is still alive I am amazed people didn't get that.

I
am definately not going to be able to convince anyone that the ending
was as close to reality as it could have been. i just want Bioware to
know that at least one intelligent person got it.

Suggesting that people who didn't like the ending are not intelligent: how droll.

Not at all. Everyone has been making good points in opposition. I just want to hear one that says something outside of "We wanted shephard to live.."

Shephard did live and earth was saved. If you don't realize that then yah I would say intelligence was not in your stat roll.

What I absolutely am not tolerating is the traumatic betrayal of the central philosophy that Bioware was trying to build up in ME3. Take Paragon path for example. The definition of 'hope' was not only that the rest of the galaxy will survive, but 'hope' that he/she will be able to get through the ordeal along with people he/she cherishes (love interest, squad members, friends etc.) even though the odd was very slim.

Shepard went through the odds to try breaking the cycle. The Prothean has acknowledged that what he/she has done was something that was never seen in the history of the galaxy filled with repeated genocidal cycle commited by the reapers. Right up to the fleet approaching Earth; the story had reached a climax where Shepard and the rest of the galaxy is about to undo the Reapers and it's all because of the protagonist's existence.

Then the catalyst happened, every philosophical direction the game was taking suddenly became meaningless. Whatever truth the catalyst believe in is the absolute truth and we must accept that. And suddenly Shepard, and we have to comply with that unacceptable philosophy.

This in my view was an absolute betrayal against the central theme of the ME story-line, and for me this is absolutely unacceptable. If this was a book I wouldn't even bother keeping it in my bookshelf. The way Bioware portrays human value is simply unacceptable by any philosophical standard in my book.

Modifié par HKR148, 11 mars 2012 - 03:58 .

[VerdantSF]

ecarden wrote...

In all the choices you make, you essentially do the Reaper's work for them, destroying galactic civilization (via the Mass Relay explosions that, as we saw in Arrival, destroy the system they're in). This makes sense as the choices are offered to you by a being that ADMITS BEING IN CHARGE OF THE REAPERS.

WHY IN THE NAME OF ALL THAT'S GOOD AND RIGHT IN THE GALAXY WOULD SHEPARD TRUST ANYTHING THAT CAME OUT OF THAT GENOCIDAL LITTLE RUNT'S MOUTH?

Never have I agreed with so much capitalized text.

[Drudgie]

ecarden wrote...

Biotic Sage wrote...

Who says Shepard believes him? He literally has NO OTHER CHOICE. He can either make the leap of faith on what the Catalyst says or he can watch Earth burn. Seriously people.

No other choice? Dude, my Shepard talked an indoctrinated Saren into blowing his brains out, convinced Geth and Quarian to work together and Jack that he loved her and wasn't just using her. His greatest weapon was his tongue, not his gun and after everything he says: yes, space god, as you say space god?

No.

He says: Look out the window. You can see Quarians and Geth, Organics and Synthetics alike, fighting to stop you. Fighting together. Despite what your tools did, despite the treachery, the lies and the mind control of the Reapers, we found each other and stand against you, as one. Perhaps in your cycle it was inevitable, but it wasn't and isn't in ours. We are not you. Do not punish us for the actions of others. Stand down. Watch. If you are right, then they will turn on us and you can return, we can't stop you anymore than the Protheans, or anyone else could. What does it cost you to test your hypothesis that this is inevitable?

I wish you had a job as a bioware writer. Not the ending i would hope for. But at least its leaves everything intake and shepard doesn't get tricked by a little boy. (who during my next playthrough i'm giving a tonne of abuse in his little vent)

[aimlessgun]

Biotic Sage wrote...

ecarden wrote...

Biotic Sage wrote...

Ugh.  The illogic here.  And are you the same one accusing Bioware of making an illogical ending?

My argument is:

1) Space god says: We do this to stop Synthetics from destroying all Organics, which is inevitable.

2) Shepard says: You're almost all powerful, if you want to stop Synthetics, stop Synthetics, don't kill Organics.  Or, even better, don't kill anyone until the Synthetics try to kill all Organics.

Let me know where the problem with the logical flaw is.

That's not how the system was programmed.  The Catalyst has no power over the Citadel, no power over changing its way of doing things, it is bound by its parameters.  It flat out says that when it tells Shepard that HE must make the choice and that he must alter the paradigm.  That's the problem with your argument.

We don't know if space god can't or won't (in character). Also, we do know that space god set up the choices, and that he has set them up based on conclusions he is just now reaching because Shep reached him. So he definitely has the power to modify those choices. 

And that's the worst part: We know that space god can modify these bull**** choices, but we can't try to argue him out of some of his dumber ideas. There are so many ways to poke holes in his crackpot philosophy, Then you can start bargaining for better options, where maybe the relays aren't destroyed. Where maybe he sends a simple self-destruct command to the reapers instead of using his space god powers to purge all synthetic life. 

And don't give me any crap about how "it's thematically important that the relays must be destroyed". Do you think Shepard gives a DAMN about thematic importance? He's here to save the goddamn galaxy, not pander to the pseudophilosophical whims of some writer. To think he'd simply not argue and give in, because something makes thematic sense, is the height of idiocy. 

This conflict between roleplaying/player choice, and writer-mandated theme, is something that shouldn't happen. It betrays how horribly the ending was planned and written. 

Modifié par aimlessgun, 11 mars 2012 - 04:04 .

[thoaloa]

Also by him saying its inevitable for synthetics and organics to kill each other and accepting this means that the universe is deterministic in that respect at least. Which is not a very fitting end to a game based on choices having meaning.

[Cosmar]

HrzRanok wrote...

ecarden wrote...

HrzRanok wrote...

Simple answer. Guardian was there before the reapers in place. A time that we do not know what happened. He saw what WILL happen if life is left to evolve on its own. Basically there will be no peace, eventually synthetics will take over and kill everything.
The guardian has to be believe and shephard believes him as well because he knows this is the only person who would have the kind of knowledge to know what will happen if the cycle if ended and organics are left free to evolve and create a synthetic life form that would wipe out everything.

There is little reason NOT to believe it.

You assert this, but we have no evidence for it. Shepard doesn't even ask for evidence of it. 

Moreover, the guardian can't have evidence for it, as if it actually happened, there would have been no game...the synthetics would have destroyed everything, not just the advanced species. Moreover, if it was inevitable, wouldn't it happen in most cycles? If so, how are the Reapers still around? They take casualties most cycles and replace them with Reapers created from organics. If it's really inevitable, you'd think it would happen in most 50,000 year cycles, in which case the Reapers would take casualties from the previous cycles version of the Geth with no way to replace them. That's putting aside the fact that they would also, if he were right, destroy all organic life, which as the game takes place can't have happened.

Why would Shepard believe a being that admits to being in charge of his enemies? It has every incentive to lie, especially as in essentially all endings the one person whose in a position to use the crucible (maybe) will die.

ETA: Second paragraph, more clearly: Space god says it's inevitable, when it can't have ever happened. Fine.

Shepard doesn't point out the window at the Geth and Quarians fighting alongside one another--WTF?

The synthetics on the point of taking over, did happen in the previous cycles. It very nearly even happened in this cycle, if not for shephards intervention. We don't know enough about the previous cycles to confirm or deny this.
Also the reapers were always watching civilization, had this happened I am sure they would have intervened and more than likely they probably did.

"Shepard doesn't point out the window at the Geth and Quarians fighting alongside one another--WTF?"
Your not hearing what i am saying. Yes that was one good example. But it took alot of luck and effort for that to happen. What was to stop the batarians, or the krogans, or the asari from creating a synthetic life form that could wipe out everything?
Even humans. EDI was created in violation of the accord. What about project overlord? Or any number of other examples that we saw throughout the series and side quests where a synthetic was accidentally created to take over.

What about the side quest in ME2 where the VI went rougue and killed everything on the station. Now multiply that 1 million times and you basically have the scenario that the guardian was talking about.

It would have happened without the cycle. To have a disney rainbow ending would have betrayed the series, not helped it. That would have been the bad ending IMO.

I'm not sure why you people think we want a rainbow ending. We want an ending THAT. MAKES. SENSE. None of this wishy washy "what if" and "maybe" bull****. It's a betrayal to the entire series.

[NoUserNameHere]

... this is why I beelined for the Destroy pylon.

Kill all synthetics? Will it kill you, Mister Catalyst? You, who holes up here and rules like a God, ruining countless lives over and over again? Good, that's all I need to know. *guns blazing*


I didn't register the color-coded ending sequence at first; I was already seeing red after talking to the jerk.

[nitefyre410]

HKR148 wrote...

*snip* 

What I absolutely am not tolerating is the traumatic betrayal of the central philosophy that Bioware was trying to build up in ME3. Take Paragon path for example. The definition of 'hope' was not only that the rest of the galaxy will survive, but 'hope' that he/she will be able to get through the ordeal along with people he/she cherishes (love interest, squad members, friends etc.) even though the odd was very slim.

Shepard went through the odds to try breaking the cycle. The Prothean has acknowledged that what he/she has done was something that was never seen in the history of the galaxy filled with repeated genocidal cycle commited by the reapers. Right up to the fleet approaching Earth; the story had reached a climax where Shepard and the rest of the galaxy is about to undo the Reapers and it's all because of the protagonist's existence.

Then the catalyst happened, every philosophical direction the game was taking suddenly became meaningless. Whatever truth the catalyst believe in is the absolute truth and we must accept that. And suddenly Shepard, and we have to comply with that unacceptable philosophy.

This in my view was an absolute betrayal against the central theme of the ME story-line, and for me this is absolutely unacceptable. If this was a book I wouldn't even bother keeping it in my bookshelf. The way Bioware portrays human value is simply unacceptable by any philosophical standard in my book.

 

Sir I raise a glass to you . well said. 

[ecarden]

HKR148 wrote...

What I absolutely am not tolerating is the traumatic betrayal of the central philosophy that Bioware was trying to build up in ME3. Take Paragon path for example. The definition of 'hope' was not only that the rest of the galaxy will survive, but 'hope' that he/she will be able to get through the ordeal along with people he/she cherishes (love interest, squad members, friends etc.) even though the odd was very slim.

Shepard went through the odds to try breaking the cycle. The Prothean has acknowledged that what he/she has done was something that was never seen in the history of the galaxy filled with repeated genocidal cycle commited by the reapers. Right up to the fleet approaching Earth; the story had reached a climax where Shepard and the rest of the galaxy is about to undo the Reapers and it's all because of the protagonist's existence.

Then the catalyst happened, every philosophical direction the game was taking suddenly became meaningless. Whatever truth the catalyst believe in is the absolute truth and we must accept that. And suddenly Shepard, and we have to comply with that unacceptable philosophy.

This in my view was an absolute betrayal against the central theme of the ME story-line, and for me this is absolutely unacceptable. If this was a book I wouldn't even bother keeping it in my bookshelf. The way Bioware portrays human value is simply unacceptable by any philosophical standard in my book.

I agree with this, but again, my main complaint is the complete derailment of a character I spent 120 hours shaping into a badass who used his brain, then his mouth and only his gun as a weapon of last resort (except with Kai Leng, he can die and I'm not taking back that renegade interrupt for anything. I never had as much problem with dialogue as when I had to talk to him after he killed Thane) into someone who was both brainless and unable to form sentences that didn't consist of: yes, space god, I will choose from the options you have so graciously granted me.

Honestly, I felt like Shepard should have been bowing and scrapping the whole time. And my Shepard was big on hugs, handshakes and salutes, not so much the bowing and scrapping.

[GBGriffin]

In short, I found it odd that my Shepard felt she was locked into a choice about the fate of organics and synthetics (presented to her BY a synthetic, btw) and didn't even bother to mention the Quarian-Geth peace, the universal alliance, etc. She basically took the Catalyst at its word, offered no objections, and just completely bought into its "plan".

[HrzRanok]

ecarden wrote...

HrzRanok wrote...

Not at all. Everyone has been making good points in opposition. I just want to hear one that says something outside of "We wanted shephard to live.."

Shephard did live and earth was saved. If you don't realize that then yah I would say intelligence was not in your stat roll.

I do not suggest that Shepard should survive. I suggested my Shepard shouldn't believe pseudo-philisophical nonsense from a genocidal monster.

As for Earth: Citidel explodes, Mass Relays explode...the only way Earth survives is magic...in a moderately hard Sci-Fi setting.

The citadel exploded, but not earth. Its still there. Watch the cinematic really slowly.
Just because the mass relay blew up doesn't mean the whole dam galaxy or the systems where the MR's blew up did as well just like The Arrival where it destroyed the entire system.

Earth is still there. We just don't know in what capacity.

Shephard didn't just hear what the Catalyst said and believed him. He had a multitude of evidence to understand what the catalyst was saying. He had evidence when he took on the Geth. When he took on the overlord. When he asked the Reaper Why. All this added up. So when the guardian asserted what Shephard already knew, he understood that this was the only way.

The relays were a trap to begin with. We also do not know that ALL of the relays were destroyed. We also do not know if any species, like the protheans, had created their own.

All of that is still possible.

Again. Shephard figured it out after all of the evidence he saw in his previous experiences. If the galaxy was left without the cycle, everything would have eventually been destroyed.
Imagine a reaper threat that didn't harvest but simply destroyed, just wiped out everything. No guardian, no crucible. Nothing would be able to stand against that threat and all life as we know it would be gone forever.

Everyone is assuming that every single reaper was involved in this fight. Does anyone have any remote imagination that there were more reapers waiting in dark space. That if the players had gotten their Vanilla ending and all reapers destroyed that there wasn't more than a few waiting as a doomsday device.
That say if the galaxy wins and everything is in place, the reapers would return and instead of harvesting, just wipe out everything?

Everyone also assumes the catalyst had control of the reapers. He didn't. he says that he lost control a long time ago. So the guardian was in a position to offer shephard 3 solutions that it believed would prevent an end of times type of possibility.

[Citizen Q]

NoUserNameHere wrote...

... this is why I beelined for the Destroy pylon.

Kill all synthetics? Will it kill you, Mister Catalyst? You, who holes up here and rules like a God, ruining countless lives over and over again? Good, that's all I need to know. *guns blazing*


I didn't register the color-coded ending sequence at first; I was already seeing red after talking to the jerk.

Exactly, to hell with that little ****. I blew up that thing so fast after I realized it would end the cycles that my injured Shep was almost sprinting.

Doesn't change the fact that the endings sucked horribly though.

[Paulinius]

So God-Child says the Reapers 50,000 year cycle of harvesting advanced organic life is the means to prevent synthetic life from wiping out all organic life.

What does the God-Child/Reapers do if say 10,000 years after the previous reaping a civilization advances faster than planned, they create synthetic life, it rebels, takes over, and kills off organic life in the galaxy?

[aimlessgun]

HrzRanok wrote...
Again. Shephard figured it out after all of the evidence he saw in his previous experiences. If the galaxy was left without the cycle, everything would have eventually been destroyed.
 

Actually, no. Maybe your Shepard thought that way. And that's fine. That's the defining thing about the series, that your Shepard can be unique. But you can't extend your Shep's viewpoint onto everyone elses. 

[ecarden]

HrzRanok wrote...

ecarden wrote...

HrzRanok wrote...

Not at all. Everyone has been making good points in opposition. I just want to hear one that says something outside of "We wanted shephard to live.."

Shephard did live and earth was saved. If you don't realize that then yah I would say intelligence was not in your stat roll.

I do not suggest that Shepard should survive. I suggested my Shepard shouldn't believe pseudo-philisophical nonsense from a genocidal monster.

As for Earth: Citidel explodes, Mass Relays explode...the only way Earth survives is magic...in a moderately hard Sci-Fi setting.

The citadel exploded, but not earth. Its still there. Watch the cinematic really slowly.
Just because the mass relay blew up doesn't mean the whole dam galaxy or the systems where the MR's blew up did as well just like The Arrival where it destroyed the entire system.

Earth is still there. We just don't know in what capacity.

Shephard didn't just hear what the Catalyst said and believed him. He had a multitude of evidence to understand what the catalyst was saying. He had evidence when he took on the Geth. When he took on the overlord. When he asked the Reaper Why. All this added up. So when the guardian asserted what Shephard already knew, he understood that this was the only way.

The relays were a trap to begin with. We also do not know that ALL of the relays were destroyed. We also do not know if any species, like the protheans, had created their own.

All of that is still possible.

Again. Shephard figured it out after all of the evidence he saw in his previous experiences. If the galaxy was left without the cycle, everything would have eventually been destroyed.
Imagine a reaper threat that didn't harvest but simply destroyed, just wiped out everything. No guardian, no crucible. Nothing would be able to stand against that threat and all life as we know it would be gone forever.

Everyone is assuming that every single reaper was involved in this fight. Does anyone have any remote imagination that there were more reapers waiting in dark space. That if the players had gotten their Vanilla ending and all reapers destroyed that there wasn't more than a few waiting as a doomsday device.
That say if the galaxy wins and everything is in place, the reapers would return and instead of harvesting, just wipe out everything?

Everyone also assumes the catalyst had control of the reapers. He didn't. he says that he lost control a long time ago. So the guardian was in a position to offer shephard 3 solutions that it believed would prevent an end of times type of possibility.

Where exactly does he say this? In my playthrough he certainly doesn't.

And, as for the Geth--they are involved in conflict...twice. Once under the influence of the Reapers and once when the Quarians try to exterminate them. Overlord--Dude, it's Cerberus, everything they touch turns to crap, except Shepard. 

All the rest of your evidence comes from...the enemy. The Reapers and their master, justifying their actions.

Also, the scenario you paint would be terrible. Maybe even, though my Shepard certainly wouldn't see it this way, worth the cost of the cycles, but, despite being asserted to be inevitable, if can't have ever happened. As if it had, there'd be no game, as there was no organic life. For something to be inevitable, for me at least, it needs to happen, at least once.

[The Angry One]

Paulinius wrote...

So God-Child says the Reapers 50,000 year cycle of harvesting advanced organic life is the means to prevent synthetic life from wiping out all organic life.

What does the God-Child/Reapers do if say 10,000 years after the previous reaping a civilization advances faster than planned, they create synthetic life, it rebels, takes over, and kills off organic life in the galaxy?

Apparently life is carefully guided to not reach such an advanced level too soon.
Which is of course bull since various civilisations develop at different paces on their own planets and discover mass relays and previous civilisation artifacts completely randomly.

[Hizuka]

Drudgie wrote...

ecarden wrote...

Biotic Sage wrote...

Who says Shepard believes him? He literally has NO OTHER CHOICE. He can either make the leap of faith on what the Catalyst says or he can watch Earth burn. Seriously people.

No other choice? Dude, my Shepard talked an indoctrinated Saren into blowing his brains out, convinced Geth and Quarian to work together and Jack that he loved her and wasn't just using her. His greatest weapon was his tongue, not his gun and after everything he says: yes, space god, as you say space god?

No.

He says: Look out the window. You can see Quarians and Geth, Organics and Synthetics alike, fighting to stop you. Fighting together. Despite what your tools did, despite the treachery, the lies and the mind control of the Reapers, we found each other and stand against you, as one. Perhaps in your cycle it was inevitable, but it wasn't and isn't in ours. We are not you. Do not punish us for the actions of others. Stand down. Watch. If you are right, then they will turn on us and you can return, we can't stop you anymore than the Protheans, or anyone else could. What does it cost you to test your hypothesis that this is inevitable?

I wish you had a job as a bioware writer. Not the ending i would hope for. But at least its leaves everything intake and shepard doesn't get tricked by a little boy. (who during my next playthrough i'm giving a tonne of abuse in his little vent)

Honestly?  I could have lived with the endings if this were the paragon one and you could talk them into just watching.  Still not as involving an ending as I'd hoped, but better than 'pick the color of your failure'.

[Thunder AI]

^, in this case in the past the reapers were always watching. with no reapers and sky child without a tool who knows.

[Nyaore]

Cosmar wrote...


I'm not sure why you people think we want a rainbow ending. We want an ending THAT. MAKES. SENSE. None of this wishy washy "what if" and "maybe" bull****. It's a betrayal to the entire series.

Don't get it either. I'm mean I have seen a handful of people saying they do want something happier, but by and large most people are upset by how poorly the ending was handled - not because it wasn't all sunshine and bunny rabbit hugs. I'd have been just as pissed if they included a happy ending that made just as little sense as this one. I'm fine with grimdark endings, but they need to work and make sense within the confines of the story. 

Modifié par Nyaore, 11 mars 2012 - 04:13 .