222 réponses à ce sujet

[HrzRanok]

Paulinius wrote...

So God-Child says the Reapers 50,000 year cycle of harvesting advanced organic life is the means to prevent synthetic life from wiping out all organic life.

What does the God-Child/Reapers do if say 10,000 years after the previous reaping a civilization advances faster than planned, they create synthetic life, it rebels, takes over, and kills off organic life in the galaxy?

This is why Sovereign was in place. To make sure that didn't happen. If it saw that happening it would have signaled the reapers in dark space and told them to come and harvest.

We also assume every 50k years. There is evidence that the cycle may have happened sooner, or even later.

[thoaloa]

HrzRanok wrote...

Paulinius wrote...

So God-Child says the Reapers 50,000 year cycle of harvesting advanced organic life is the means to prevent synthetic life from wiping out all organic life.

What does the God-Child/Reapers do if say 10,000 years after the previous reaping a civilization advances faster than planned, they create synthetic life, it rebels, takes over, and kills off organic life in the galaxy?

This is why Sovereign was in place. To make sure that didn't happen. If it saw that happening it would have signaled the reapers in dark space and told them to come and harvest.

We also assume every 50k years. There is evidence that the cycle may have happened sooner, or even later.

Except ME1 broke that part of the cycle. And killed Sovereign. Not to mention if the Geth were so easily taken over by the Reapers and their objective was to stop synthics from destroying organics then why not just take the geth away. Not that the Geth are a threat to all galatic life in this cycle.

[ecarden]

HrzRanok wrote...

Paulinius wrote...

So God-Child says the Reapers 50,000 year cycle of harvesting advanced organic life is the means to prevent synthetic life from wiping out all organic life.

What does the God-Child/Reapers do if say 10,000 years after the previous reaping a civilization advances faster than planned, they create synthetic life, it rebels, takes over, and kills off organic life in the galaxy?

This is why Sovereign was in place. To make sure that didn't happen. If it saw that happening it would have signaled the reapers in dark space and told them to come and harvest.

We also assume every 50k years. There is evidence that the cycle may have happened sooner, or even later.

Then why (assuming you believe the Rachni queen that they were the first tool that Sovereign used to try to bring back his brethren) did they attempt to arrive 1600 before the creation of the Geth, the only major synthetic species in the galaxy?

Rachni Wars: 1900 years ago.

Morning War: 300 years ago.

[Citizen Q]

The only evidence Shep has is given to him via the Reapers, trusting them when they are trying to justify their actions if the epitome of ignorance. And shoehorning Shepard (a character who is supposed to be an avatar for the player) into doing it is tantamount to slapping the player in the face.

[George-Kinsill]

Cosmar wrote...

HrzRanok wrote...

ecarden wrote...

HrzRanok wrote...

Simple answer. Guardian was there before the reapers in place. A time that we do not know what happened. He saw what WILL happen if life is left to evolve on its own. Basically there will be no peace, eventually synthetics will take over and kill everything.
The guardian has to be believe and shephard believes him as well because he knows this is the only person who would have the kind of knowledge to know what will happen if the cycle if ended and organics are left free to evolve and create a synthetic life form that would wipe out everything.

There is little reason NOT to believe it.

You assert this, but we have no evidence for it. Shepard doesn't even ask for evidence of it. 

Moreover, the guardian can't have evidence for it, as if it actually happened, there would have been no game...the synthetics would have destroyed everything, not just the advanced species. Moreover, if it was inevitable, wouldn't it happen in most cycles? If so, how are the Reapers still around? They take casualties most cycles and replace them with Reapers created from organics. If it's really inevitable, you'd think it would happen in most 50,000 year cycles, in which case the Reapers would take casualties from the previous cycles version of the Geth with no way to replace them. That's putting aside the fact that they would also, if he were right, destroy all organic life, which as the game takes place can't have happened.

Why would Shepard believe a being that admits to being in charge of his enemies? It has every incentive to lie, especially as in essentially all endings the one person whose in a position to use the crucible (maybe) will die.

ETA: Second paragraph, more clearly: Space god says it's inevitable, when it can't have ever happened. Fine.

Shepard doesn't point out the window at the Geth and Quarians fighting alongside one another--WTF?

The synthetics on the point of taking over, did happen in the previous cycles. It very nearly even happened in this cycle, if not for shephards intervention. We don't know enough about the previous cycles to confirm or deny this.
Also the reapers were always watching civilization, had this happened I am sure they would have intervened and more than likely they probably did.

"Shepard doesn't point out the window at the Geth and Quarians fighting alongside one another--WTF?"
Your not hearing what i am saying. Yes that was one good example. But it took alot of luck and effort for that to happen. What was to stop the batarians, or the krogans, or the asari from creating a synthetic life form that could wipe out everything?
Even humans. EDI was created in violation of the accord. What about project overlord? Or any number of other examples that we saw throughout the series and side quests where a synthetic was accidentally created to take over.

What about the side quest in ME2 where the VI went rougue and killed everything on the station. Now multiply that 1 million times and you basically have the scenario that the guardian was talking about.

It would have happened without the cycle. To have a disney rainbow ending would have betrayed the series, not helped it. That would have been the bad ending IMO.

I'm not sure why you people think we want a rainbow ending. We want an ending THAT. MAKES. SENSE. None of this wishy washy "what if" and "maybe" bull****. It's a betrayal to the entire series.

As a huge dissenter of the ending, here is what I would have prefeered:

1. Dark energy ending: This subscribes to the theory that Reapers are the protector of the Universe and destroy organics to stop the fabric of space/time itself from tearing apart. This could have resulted in the following choices:
a. Kill the reapers, and allow the galaxy to implode in 1000 years. This in the short term wouldn't affect you, but in the long term you are dooming all life. Even worse, if Liara is your LI, she or your child with her will see the end of everything.
b. Kill the reapers, convince everyone to stop using dark energy devices. If you saved the council and have the god will of the galaxy, you can try to convince everyoe to stop using the mass relays and the like. everyone will be confined to their own systems, ending galactic civilization, but saving it locally. If you chose an alien LI, like Tali, you could choose to move there and live the rest of your days there, never seeing earth again. You might suceed in only preventing a galactic apocolypse for several thousand years, but there is a chance of hope.
c. Surendur to the Reapers. You realize the reapers are needed to save all organic life and that to oppose them would be selfish. You let the reapers kill everything, sacrificing yourself and all civilizations for the future.
d. Surrendur to the Reapers, but live on in human dominated galaxy. This can be acheived by keeping the collector base, as you know the Reaper's secrets. You find a way to make the reapers ignore you and they harvest everything, leaving you in control of the galaxy. Galaxywill live on another 7000 years, but no longer.

With these endings, all are bittersweet (or evil in case of d) and would account for your choices throughout the series. Renegades and paragons would be happy and sad. Tthere is no rainbow ending, but all of them in my opinion are better than the current bs ending. 

[HrzRanok]

Ok so to all the people who said that if he simply didn't believe the guardian and just did nothing.

So here is what would have happened.

- The galaxy wins. Ends the cycle, Relays intact. All life intact. Quarians and geth living together, earth rebuilding. Shephard alive with liara or whatever relationship he would have had.
Then the epilogue would have been eventually a galaxy devoid of all life synthetic and organic at some point down the line.

Why? Because eventually as has been shown throughout the series. If society left to its own evolution without intervention would have eventually created a synthetic form that would have wiped out all organic life and then eventually been gone themselves.
So no cycle, no shephard, no nothing. All gone.
And that's somehow a rainbod ending?

Fine, don't believe the guardian. Shephard didn't have to and he probably didn't. He only needed to look at the history of everything he saw.

Your also forgetting that the quarians, krogans, and all other species are still around. There was no need to have the relays. Society can evolve on its without all of that.

Also to the one who said "Earth is in bad shape.."
Its been in worse situations and come out just fine. Humanity will survive in a galaxy without relays. They were a trap to begin with.

[ecarden]

Steptroll wrote...

Greed1914 wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

That he's not a Reaper is irrelevant. He makes them do what they do. It's HIS fault.
And his entire stance is complete nonsense. He's disproved by events in the game.
Most shockingly of all, HE CONTRADICTS HIMSELF. HE IS SYNTHETIC. HE WANTS TO PRESERVE ORGANIC LIFE.

He basically lies to Shepard's face, and Shep just accepts it. Again, Shep gives in to the resident monster. It's unbelievable.

It's true.  Not only do we have our own proof that his premise is flawed, but he is a walking contradiction.  So, there is just one enlightened AI that understands the value of organics?  It's inconceivable to this being that other AI's could also see the value? 

I think you guys are trying to put something inherently incomprehensible to us into terms that you can understand. (Reapers reminding us that their motivations cannot be understood by mere mortals.) Asking about the nature of the child and about his motivations is akin to asking the same about God. 

We don't have enough information to solidly conclude upon his nature and motivations. He might not be synthetic for all we know. He might be the collective consciousness of the species that built the reapers. He might be a hyper advanced VI. He might be an omnipotent entity who exists JUST BECAUSE. We can't say for sure.

I'm sorry, but 'it's incomprehensible' is a cop out for bad writing. If you can't explain something, THEN DON'T WRITE IT.

[Citizen Q]

HrzRanok wrote...

Ok so to all the people who said that if he simply didn't believe the guardian and just did nothing.

So here is what would have happened.

- The galaxy wins. Ends the cycle, Relays intact. All life intact. Quarians and geth living together, earth rebuilding. Shephard alive with liara or whatever relationship he would have had.
Then the epilogue would have been eventually a galaxy devoid of all life synthetic and organic at some point down the line.

Why? Because eventually as has been shown throughout the series. If society left to its own evolution without intervention would have eventually created a synthetic form that would have wiped out all organic life and then eventually been gone themselves.
So no cycle, no shephard, no nothing. All gone.
And that's somehow a rainbod ending?

Fine, don't believe the guardian. Shephard didn't have to and he probably didn't. He only needed to look at the history of everything he saw.

Your also forgetting that the quarians, krogans, and all other species are still around. There was no need to have the relays. Society can evolve on its without all of that.

Also to the one who said "Earth is in bad shape.."
Its been in worse situations and come out just fine. Humanity will survive in a galaxy without relays. They were a trap to begin with.

No

[ecarden]

HrzRanok wrote...

Snip

Why? Because eventually as has been shown throughout the series. If society left to its own evolution without intervention would have eventually created a synthetic form that would have wiped out all organic life and then eventually been gone themselves.

Snip

IT'S NOT SHOWN! It's asserted by the leader of your enemy.

[Paulinius]

HrzRanok wrote...

Paulinius wrote...

So God-Child says the Reapers 50,000 year cycle of harvesting advanced organic life is the means to prevent synthetic life from wiping out all organic life.

What does the God-Child/Reapers do if say 10,000 years after the previous reaping a civilization advances faster than planned, they create synthetic life, it rebels, takes over, and kills off organic life in the galaxy?

This is why Sovereign was in place. To make sure that didn't happen. If it saw that happening it would have signaled the reapers in dark space and told them to come and harvest.

We also assume every 50k years. There is evidence that the cycle may have happened sooner, or even later.

But their response was, in my opinion, inadequate.

The Protheans disabled the Keeper's signal as discovered when Soverign attempted to activate the Citadel Relay 2,000 years (or how many years exactly it was ago) before ME1. Did the Reapers immediately come out of dark space to the Alpha Relay and deal with the problem?

No, they tried to ninja the Citadel via the Rachni and later Saren and the Geth allowing organics another 2,000 or so years to consume Eezo supplies, resources, and develop tech for thousands of more years than intended by God-Child.

If a civilization created an AI like in Overlord or a Von Neumann machine, organic life could be possibly be wiped out before the Reapers can come in and stop things, which isn't a very good plan for a supposedly advanced race. 



 

[HrzRanok]

I find it very funny that people say "don't believe the guardian.."
Yet expect shephard to leave in place contraptions like the citadel and the relays which were created by the guardian and the reapers.

Does anyone fathom the possibility that the relays if left in place would mean the end to all life everywhere? and that now with them gone they now have a chance to rebuild and evolve freely without the reapers to worry about?

Also understand that what shephard did was NOT for nothing. The actions he did prepared the galaxy for a life without the mass relays. Without shephards interactions, the galaxy would have been in much worse shape.

Also, shephard knew the only way to end the cycle, save earth, and kill all the reapers was to do exactly what he did.

I don't think Shephard believed the guardian at all and simply made up his own mind. Your assuming he believed the guardian. You don't understand that he didn't have to believe him.

[deathscythe517]

I'm getting the sense that you like the sound of your own voice...er text.

[HrzRanok]

ecarden wrote...

HrzRanok wrote...

Snip

Why? Because eventually as has been shown throughout the series. If society left to its own evolution without intervention would have eventually created a synthetic form that would have wiped out all organic life and then eventually been gone themselves.

Snip

IT'S NOT SHOWN! It's asserted by the leader of your enemy.

Wrong. Take out the guardians statements entirely just look out at every example that could be scene.
How many illusive mans were to come?
How many corrupted VI are there really out there and how long before one got loose?
Yeah society looked stable and sure the quarians/geth were shown how hey could co-exist. But it was only one bad broadcast of a Vi virus away from it all going wrong.

[ecarden]

HrzRanok wrote...

I find it very funny that people say "don't believe the guardian.."
Yet expect shephard to leave in place contraptions like the citadel and the relays which were created by the guardian and the reapers.

Does anyone fathom the possibility that the relays if left in place would mean the end to all life everywhere? and that now with them gone they now have a chance to rebuild and evolve freely without the reapers to worry about?

Also understand that what shephard did was NOT for nothing. The actions he did prepared the galaxy for a life without the mass relays. Without shephards interactions, the galaxy would have been in much worse shape.

Also, shephard knew the only way to end the cycle, save earth, and kill all the reapers was to do exactly what he did.

I don't think Shephard believed the guardian at all and simply made up his own mind. Your assuming he believed the guardian. You don't understand that he didn't have to believe him.

It's not just about belief, it's about being unable to argue. If Shepard doesn't argue, isn't allowed to argue, then the clear implication is that it's because he believes. Again, this is someone who can break loyalties, lives, hatreds and alliances with a speech. I buy all that and when faced with the leader of his enemies, he doesn't even bother to argue? Just accepts both the facts and the terrible options he lays out and chooses between them? No. He takes a third (or, in this case, fourth) option, because it's what he does.

Suspension of disbelief goes only so far.

[Biotic Sage]

aimlessgun wrote...

Biotic Sage wrote...

ecarden wrote...

Biotic Sage wrote...

Ugh.  The illogic here.  And are you the same one accusing Bioware of making an illogical ending?

My argument is:

1) Space god says: We do this to stop Synthetics from destroying all Organics, which is inevitable.

2) Shepard says: You're almost all powerful, if you want to stop Synthetics, stop Synthetics, don't kill Organics.  Or, even better, don't kill anyone until the Synthetics try to kill all Organics.

Let me know where the problem with the logical flaw is.

That's not how the system was programmed.  The Catalyst has no power over the Citadel, no power over changing its way of doing things, it is bound by its parameters.  It flat out says that when it tells Shepard that HE must make the choice and that he must alter the paradigm.  That's the problem with your argument.

We don't know if space god can't or won't (in character). Also, we do know that space god set up the choices, and that he has set them up based on conclusions he is just now reaching because Shep reached him. So he definitely has the power to modify those choices. 

And that's the worst part: We know that space god can modify these bull**** choices, but we can't try to argue him out of some of his dumber ideas. There are so many ways to poke holes in his crackpot philosophy, Then you can start bargaining for better options, where maybe the relays aren't destroyed. Where maybe he sends a simple self-destruct command to the reapers instead of using his space god powers to purge all synthetic life. 

And don't give me any crap about how "it's thematically important that the relays must be destroyed". Do you think Shepard gives a DAMN about thematic importance? He's here to save the goddamn galaxy, not pander to the pseudophilosophical whims of some writer. To think he'd simply not argue and give in, because something makes thematic sense, is the height of idiocy. 

This conflict between roleplaying/player choice, and writer-mandated theme, is something that shouldn't happen. It betrays how horribly the ending was planned and written. 

Like I said, the "Space God" which I refuse to call him by the way, Cannot, modify the choices.  The Crucible is the modifier.

With that established: Ok, so you just don't like the rules that the writers set up.  That's fine.  But within the parameters of those rules, the ending is not illogical.  It makes complete sense.  I for one am on board with the writing, but others don't have to be.  So like I said, you can criticize the endings, but don't act like they don't make sense.

Modifié par Biotic Sage, 11 mars 2012 - 04:32 .

[GBGriffin]

ecarden wrote...

HrzRanok wrote...

Snip

Why? Because eventually as has been shown throughout the series. If society left to its own evolution without intervention would have eventually created a synthetic form that would have wiped out all organic life and then eventually been gone themselves.

Snip

IT'S NOT SHOWN! It's asserted by the leader of your enemy.

Not only that, it's shown to be incorrect through uniting the Quarians and the Geth in peace (in my ending).

All I wanted was an interrupt where my Shepard would just point out at the fleet and say "Look at that!"

[ecarden]

HrzRanok wrote...

ecarden wrote...

HrzRanok wrote...

Snip

Why? Because eventually as has been shown throughout the series. If society left to its own evolution without intervention would have eventually created a synthetic form that would have wiped out all organic life and then eventually been gone themselves.

Snip

IT'S NOT SHOWN! It's asserted by the leader of your enemy.

Wrong. Take out the guardians statements entirely just look out at every example that could be scene.
How many illusive mans were to come?
How many corrupted VI are there really out there and how long before one got loose?
Yeah society looked stable and sure the quarians/geth were shown how hey could co-exist. But it was only one bad broadcast of a Vi virus away from it all going wrong.

If it was really that easy to destroy the galaxy, it would have happened, either in this cycle, or an earlier one. 

Space god asserts that something that, by his definition, can't have happened, to be inevitable. It's bad logic and it doesn't work. Fine, people, even magical space god people, can be illogical, but my Shepard specializes in calling out said bullcrap. I can't, because the writers say so. That's called character derailment. Or bad writing.

[Citizen Q]

HrzRanok wrote...

ecarden wrote...

HrzRanok wrote...

Snip

Why? Because eventually as has been shown throughout the series. If society left to its own evolution without intervention would have eventually created a synthetic form that would have wiped out all organic life and then eventually been gone themselves.

Snip

IT'S NOT SHOWN! It's asserted by the leader of your enemy.

Wrong. Take out the guardians statements entirely just look out at every example that could be scene.
How many illusive mans were to come?
How many corrupted VI are there really out there and how long before one got loose?
Yeah society looked stable and sure the quarians/geth were shown how hey could co-exist. But it was only one bad broadcast of a Vi virus away from it all going wrong.

And yet Shepard is capable of, and in most players attempts, DID fix / beat all these problems. Your premise is flawed.

[HrzRanok]

Paulinius wrote...

HrzRanok wrote...

Paulinius wrote...

So God-Child says the Reapers 50,000 year cycle of harvesting advanced organic life is the means to prevent synthetic life from wiping out all organic life.

What does the God-Child/Reapers do if say 10,000 years after the previous reaping a civilization advances faster than planned, they create synthetic life, it rebels, takes over, and kills off organic life in the galaxy?

This is why Sovereign was in place. To make sure that didn't happen. If it saw that happening it would have signaled the reapers in dark space and told them to come and harvest.

We also assume every 50k years. There is evidence that the cycle may have happened sooner, or even later.

But their response was, in my opinion, inadequate.

The Protheans disabled the Keeper's signal as discovered when Soverign attempted to activate the Citadel Relay 2,000 years (or how many years exactly it was ago) before ME1. Did the Reapers immediately come out of dark space to the Alpha Relay and deal with the problem?

No, they tried to ninja the Citadel via the Rachni and later Saren and the Geth allowing organics another 2,000 or so years to consume Eezo supplies, resources, and develop tech for thousands of more years than intended by God-Child.

If a civilization created an AI like in Overlord or a Von Neumann machine, organic life could be possibly be wiped out before the Reapers can come in and stop things, which isn't a very good plan for a supposedly advanced race. 



 

This scenario that the reapers faced had never been done before. IE the interupted signal.
Plus your also assuming the Reapers had only one way to get into the galaxy.

Also it took hundreds of years for the reapers to do their job. How long do you think it would have taken a rougue Ai in wiping out everything?
Much much longer. The reapers would have intervened long before that kind of thing got out of hand and put a stop to it.

[deathscythe517]

You're using oh, what's the word, a false...something, I'm sure someone can put it better than I can. I'll admit, you're capable of rationalizing really well and spinning things, you can remain somewhat respectful but you're also a bit smug.

But the fact that most of your argument relies heavily on "what ifs" makes the ground you're standing on quite shaky. Even if the Guardian turns out to be right, does it have the right to dictate how our lives should be? How it should deal with the threat on "our" behalf? Absolutely not. The point is if galactic extinction comes it'll come, we either stop it or we don't, and there's absolutely no rhyme or reason to buy that half assed argument from the Catalyst outside of the nonsense you're trying to state as fact. It's all speculation on your part, what we know without a doubt is that synthetics have shown they can be reasoned with and it is only the Reapers that corrupt all around them. Before the Reapers the Galaxy was crapsaccharine much like the world we live on at this very moment, some want to make it better, some want to make it worst, most want to be left to their own devices.

The Catalyst and the Reapers have no right to do what they do and frankly the Catalyst itself invalidates the events of the first game, Sovereign used synthetics, and the Reaper on Rannoch used Synthetics. It is a hypocrite, while I cannot tell you to change your opinion, I can say that based upon the physical evidence across the three games that most if not all the worst issues in the galaxy somehow lead back to the freaking Reapers that are suppose to be the solution to this 'technology singularity'.

[Biotic Sage]

GBGriffin wrote...

ecarden wrote...

HrzRanok wrote...

Snip

Why? Because eventually as has been shown throughout the series. If society left to its own evolution without intervention would have eventually created a synthetic form that would have wiped out all organic life and then eventually been gone themselves.

Snip

IT'S NOT SHOWN! It's asserted by the leader of your enemy.

Not only that, it's shown to be incorrect through uniting the Quarians and the Geth in peace (in my ending).

All I wanted was an interrupt where my Shepard would just point out at the fleet and say "Look at that!"

Ok, look, temporary cooperation does not disprove the Catalyst's assertion.  It doesn't prove it either, but it certainly doesn't disprove it.  I cannot take people seriously when they make this fallacious argument.

The beauty of the ending is that you don't have to accept the Catalyst's assertion, you can choose the destroy ending or the control ending, which is basically saying: give us a chance to see what happens if organics are just allowed to live naturally.

[ecarden]

Biotic Sage wrote...

Snip

Like I said, the "Space God" which I refuse to call him by the way, Cannot, modify the choices.  The Crucible is the modifier.

With that established: Ok, so you just don't like the rules that the writers set up.  That's fine.  But within the parameters of those rules, the ending is not illogical.  It makes complete sense.  I for one am on board with the writing, but others don't have to be.  So like I said, you can criticize the endings, but don't act like they don't make sense.

You assert those are the rules, but that's not what he says. He says you've proven the cycles can't continue, so he gives you these three options.

And, even if they were the rules, they aren't mentioned anywhere except that final scene. They exist only to falsely limit your choices.

ETA: Speaking of rules, suddenly relays being destroyed doesn't destroy the system they're in because...magic?

Oh, and Shepard, despite being the only person to destroy a relay and potentially being haunted by said decision, never even asks if it will? BULL****.

Modifié par ecarden, 11 mars 2012 - 04:37 .

[Osiris273]

"Synthetics killing organics, don't worry, I'll send more synthetics to kill you before they do!!"
That makes so much sense.

[Zourin]

I head-canon my signature.

[thoaloa]

HrzRanok wrote...
Also understand that what shephard did was NOT for nothing. The actions he did prepared the galaxy for a life without the mass relays. Without shephards interactions, the galaxy would have been in much worse shape. 

See theres something missing here the relays are blown up with about 0 time to perpare for total galatic economy collpase. Its like taking the evil energy on earth and one day sending a pulse out that removes all combustable fuels (somehow). A lot of bad things will happen and you'll kill a lot of people just becuase down the line it will be better. Thats just crazy and doesnt actually prepare anyone for anything you just screw over everyone in one decision. (Planes will drop out of the sky, nations will starve, no power, dark ages, etc..., big gaping holes in the ground, etc...)

And somehow you have to make it physically impossible for them to not just go and rebuild what they are familar with so organic matter cant burn anymore either. (Or element zero just vanishes, takes the mass effect out of the equation)

Prepare would have been phase out use not magic it away.