222 réponses à ce sujet

[The Angry One]

ecarden wrote...
EDI is created and kills a bunch of people. I almost kill her. We learn to work together. She falls in love with Joker. They're happy together. Yay!

Er just to be clear, EDI has never killed anyone. That was the killbot's previous personality before she overwrote it with her own.

Modifié par The Angry One, 11 mars 2012 - 05:08 .

[The Angry One]

Biotic Sage wrote...
You don't have to believe him.  Haven't we been over this?  You can choose to accept that he is telling the truth or not, but you have to pick one of the choices if you want to even have a chance at stopping the Reapers.

Because he says so.

[lasertank]

Biotic Sage wrote...

lasertank wrote...

Biotic Sage wrote...

NoUserNameHere wrote...

Eh? It was the organic Quarians who started both conflicts against their creations.

The circumstances are irrelevant.  The Pattern is that synthetics will eventually destroy organics.  It doesn't matter who starts it in each iteration, the premise is that it will eventually happen.  Sometimes it could take a couple of years after Singularity, sometimes it could take thousands, or maybe even hundreds of thousands.  So maybe the Catalyst is right or maybe it isn't, but the Quarian/Geth situation doesn't disprove anything.

If you worry about synthetics destroying all organics and you all so mighty would you do? You tell synthetics not to do that. You control them and make laws for them to obey. Not ****ing kill the organics to say "we kill you so you wont be killed by synthetics." Idiot logic the Catalyst has.

Reapers do not kill.  They harvest and "preserve."  A Reaper is made up of the DNA of an entire species.  In a twisted way they are preserving organics the best way they can if they truly believe in the Pattern.  That's not bad logic when you are basing it off the assumption of the Pattern.

No. They kill. They dissolve people so lives cease to exist. If you'd like to think as a reaper that's fine. Don't expect Shepard or any other players as think as reapers.

[movieguyabw]

Biotic Sage wrote...


You don't have to believe him.  Haven't we been over this?  You can choose to accept that he is telling the truth or not, but you have to pick one of the choices if you want to even have a chance at stopping the Reapers.

And why can you not flip him off, say "**** you.  Give me a better option."

[ecarden]

Biotic Sage wrote...

ecarden wrote...

Biotic Sage wrote...

NoUserNameHere wrote...

Eh? It was the organic Quarians who started both conflicts against their creations.

The circumstances are irrelevant.  The Pattern is that synthetics will eventually destroy organics.  It doesn't matter who starts it in each iteration, the premise is that it will eventually happen.  Sometimes it could take a couple of years after Singularity, sometimes it could take thousands, or maybe even hundreds of thousands.  So maybe the Catalyst is right or maybe it isn't, but the Quarian/Geth situation doesn't disprove anything.

This is the evidence available to my Shepard:

Quarians attack Geth. Geth defend themselves. Quarians attack Geth again. Geth defend themselves. I convince them to stop and work together. Yay!

EDI is created and kills a bunch of people. I almost kill her. We learn to work together. She falls in love with Joker. They're happy together. Yay!

Prothy the Prothean ****, tells us about warring with synthetics of his time. Uh-oh. He tells us of warring with everyone else. Huh.

Space god says it's inevitable for synthetics to destroy organics.

Okay space god. You're the boss, because Bioware says so. What were those options you gave me again?

You don't have to believe him.  Haven't we been over this?  You can choose to accept that he is telling the truth or not, but you have to pick one of the choices if you want to even have a chance at stopping the Reapers.

I may have to choose, but I can ask about whether, for instance, there are other options. Or, whether destroying the mass relays will destroy the systems they're in. Or whether the Crucible might, in fact, be a control mechanism, giving me power over the Catalyst, which is even now trying to trick me into choosing between limitted options, rather than excercising control I don't know I have.

Hey, that theory has exactly as much evidence as the, Crucible creates exactly these three options, from which you must choose! So sayeth space god.

[Adain878]

Just wanted to toss this out. Don't think its space god more like kid space wizard.

[ecarden]

The Angry One wrote...

ecarden wrote...
EDI is created and kills a bunch of people. I almost kill her. We learn to work together. She falls in love with Joker. They're happy together. Yay!

Er just to be clear, EDI has never killed anyone. That was the killbot's previous personality before she overwrote it with her own.

No, in her personage as the VI that achieved sentience on Luna. Didn't a bunch of marines get killed before Shepard got sent in?

ETA: http://masseffect.wi...i/UNC:_Rogue_VI 

Though it may be more like a fetus killing its mother being born...eh, either way, I end up at Yay! Counter-evidence to space god's bull.

Modifié par ecarden, 11 mars 2012 - 05:12 .

[deathscythe517]

I like how my argument is totally ignored...

But honestly, who would you believe based on the evidence presented across all games? Most of the major problems in the universe across all three games are directly influenced or outright caused by the Reapers which the Catalyst see as a solution. The Catalyst is wrong and also cowardly, it has no evidence to support its logic, and frankly what we are able to determine across our journey is that it is wrong. Shepard however falters - something completely out of character in my opinion - and it strikes me as incredibly odd.

The burden of proof falls upon the Catalyst to prove his point and sadly he presents no proof, just a half-hearted 'speech' to rationalize its genocidal tedencies (what I and many think) or a really really weak plot device. The proof we COULD have presented is the evidence that synthetic life, across all three games, is more concerned with self-preservation than killing organics...the very laws that are there to prevent synthetics from becoming too powerful are the reason that they become hostile.

The Reapers use synthetics in the first in the third to try and accomplish their goal and this is the only time synthetics are outright hostile is when they are sided with the Old Machines/Reapers. Other than that, they are simply concerned with self-preservation.

[General User]

You're pretty much right on there OP. And cheers also to The Angry One.

I like to think of it this way: Shepard was hurt, exhausted, and just watched (at least one) of his mentor(s) die. So when some genocidal little runt tries to feed him a line of hypocritical BS, he feels no need to address or entertain anything so idiotic and just blows the damn thing up.

[nuclearpengu1nn]

What's even more mind boggling is that the Reapers were created to kill all organic life every 50,000 years to prevent organics from creating synthetics that would kill organic life O.o

[ecarden]

deathscythe517 wrote...

I like how my argument is totally ignored...

But honestly, who would you believe based on the evidence presented across all games? Most of the major problems in the universe across all three games are directly influenced or outright caused by the Reapers which the Catalyst see as a solution. The Catalyst is wrong and also cowardly, it has no evidence to support its logic, and frankly what we are able to determine across our journey is that it is wrong. Shepard however falters - something completely out of character in my opinion - and it strikes me as incredibly odd.

The burden of proof falls upon the Catalyst to prove his point and sadly he presents no proof, just a half-hearted 'speech' to rationalize its genocidal tedencies (what I and many think) or a really really weak plot device. The proof we COULD have presented is the evidence that synthetic life, across all three games, is more concerned with self-preservation than killing organics...the very laws that are there to prevent synthetics from becoming too powerful are the reason that they become hostile.

The Reapers use synthetics in the first in the third to try and accomplish their goal and this is the only time synthetics are outright hostile is when they are sided with the Old Machines/Reapers. Other than that, they are simply concerned with self-preservation.

Indeed. Now, maybe if we were shown some evidence? Prothy might be a way in, but given that his species went around conquering everyone in sight, it's hard to feel bad if Space Romans unleash Space Huns on themselves and even harder to extrapolate what that means for those species who aren't Space Romans.

[Citizen Q]

Biotic Sage wrote...

ecarden wrote...

Biotic Sage wrote...

NoUserNameHere wrote...

Eh? It was the organic Quarians who started both conflicts against their creations.

The circumstances are irrelevant.  The Pattern is that synthetics will eventually destroy organics.  It doesn't matter who starts it in each iteration, the premise is that it will eventually happen.  Sometimes it could take a couple of years after Singularity, sometimes it could take thousands, or maybe even hundreds of thousands.  So maybe the Catalyst is right or maybe it isn't, but the Quarian/Geth situation doesn't disprove anything.

This is the evidence available to my Shepard:

Quarians attack Geth. Geth defend themselves. Quarians attack Geth again. Geth defend themselves. I convince them to stop and work together. Yay!

EDI is created and kills a bunch of people. I almost kill her. We learn to work together. She falls in love with Joker. They're happy together. Yay!

Prothy the Prothean ****, tells us about warring with synthetics of his time. Uh-oh. He tells us of warring with everyone else. Huh.

Space god says it's inevitable for synthetics to destroy organics.

Okay space god. You're the boss, because Bioware says so. What were those options you gave me again?

You don't have to believe him.  Haven't we been over this?  You can choose to accept that he is telling the truth or not, but you have to pick one of the choices if you want to even have a chance at stopping the Reapers.

Yea, thats called bad writing on Bioware's part, or at the very least bad design decisions.

I would honestly prefer the option to tell that genocidal little bast.ard to go f.uck himself and watch us fight to the death rather than go along with his batsh.it crazy ass plans. That is the scope of how wrong I consider the choices we are given, they all go against everything my Shepard stood for.

Modifié par Citizen Q, 11 mars 2012 - 05:18 .

[Biotic Sage]

The Angry One wrote...

Did you somehow miss the part where the Geth spared the Quarians who fled their world?
The Geth, synthetic lifeforms, chose to not exterminate organics, They CHOSE.

That alone disproves all of idiot childs brainless assertions.

If you believe that it disproves his assertion that's fine.  Then you should choose the destroy ending (but at the cost of genocide against the geth) or the control ending (at the cost of the Reapers still lurking out there).  Both of these endings would be terrible choices if the Pattern is actually true and it actually is inevitable for synthetics to eventually destroy organics.  But that's why it's a brilliant choice: you have to decide whether or not you believe him or not, and it is implied through the decision you make what your stance on the matter is.

[Citizen Q]

Biotic Sage wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Did you somehow miss the part where the Geth spared the Quarians who fled their world?
The Geth, synthetic lifeforms, chose to not exterminate organics, They CHOSE.

That alone disproves all of idiot childs brainless assertions.

If you believe that it disproves his assertion that's fine.  Then you should choose the destroy ending (but at the cost of genocide against the geth) or the control ending (at the cost of the Reapers still lurking out there).  Both of these endings would be terrible choices if the Pattern is actually true and it actually is inevitable for synthetics to eventually destroy organics.  But that's why it's a brilliant choice: you have to decide whether or not you believe him or not, and it is implied through the decision you make what your stance on the matter is.

Its not 'brilliant', it's bad writting / design to try and force an emotional response.

See my post above yours for further info.

Modifié par Citizen Q, 11 mars 2012 - 05:19 .

[Biotic Sage]

lasertank wrote...

Biotic Sage wrote...

lasertank wrote...

Biotic Sage wrote...

NoUserNameHere wrote...

Eh? It was the organic Quarians who started both conflicts against their creations.

The circumstances are irrelevant.  The Pattern is that synthetics will eventually destroy organics.  It doesn't matter who starts it in each iteration, the premise is that it will eventually happen.  Sometimes it could take a couple of years after Singularity, sometimes it could take thousands, or maybe even hundreds of thousands.  So maybe the Catalyst is right or maybe it isn't, but the Quarian/Geth situation doesn't disprove anything.

If you worry about synthetics destroying all organics and you all so mighty would you do? You tell synthetics not to do that. You control them and make laws for them to obey. Not ****ing kill the organics to say "we kill you so you wont be killed by synthetics." Idiot logic the Catalyst has.

Reapers do not kill.  They harvest and "preserve."  A Reaper is made up of the DNA of an entire species.  In a twisted way they are preserving organics the best way they can if they truly believe in the Pattern.  That's not bad logic when you are basing it off the assumption of the Pattern.

No. They kill. They dissolve people so lives cease to exist. If you'd like to think as a reaper that's fine. Don't expect Shepard or any other players as think as reapers.

Dude, I'm not saying I personally think like I Reaper.  I agree, it is killing.  But to the Reapers, it is not killing.  It is perfectly logical considering they accept the Pattern as truth. 

[Biotic Sage]

Citizen Q wrote...

Biotic Sage wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Did you somehow miss the part where the Geth spared the Quarians who fled their world?
The Geth, synthetic lifeforms, chose to not exterminate organics, They CHOSE.

That alone disproves all of idiot childs brainless assertions.

If you believe that it disproves his assertion that's fine.  Then you should choose the destroy ending (but at the cost of genocide against the geth) or the control ending (at the cost of the Reapers still lurking out there).  Both of these endings would be terrible choices if the Pattern is actually true and it actually is inevitable for synthetics to eventually destroy organics.  But that's why it's a brilliant choice: you have to decide whether or not you believe him or not, and it is implied through the decision you make what your stance on the matter is.

Its not 'brilliant', it's bad writting / design to try and force an emotional response.

See my post above yours for further info.

I saw your above post.  I ignored it because I've already addressed that point in one of my earlier posts which you either didn't read or chose not to consider.  I'm not going to engage in circular arguments.

Modifié par Biotic Sage, 11 mars 2012 - 05:23 .

[ecarden]

@Biotic Sage.

So, if I understand your answer to my question at the start. It's not that Shepard believes him. He simply accepts the choices offered with nary a question or argument and chooses among them. Effectively committing suicide, despite being the only person on the station, on the word of an admittedly genocidal hologram.

I mean, we see that he's telling the truth about what each option does, but all Shepard knows is that he's supposed to, jump in a hole, grab electrical wires, or blow himself up. And he doesn't say, 'this is a stupid trick to try to get me to commit suicide, not turn on the crucible, screw you hologram that is probably Harbinger trying to screw with me.' Really?

ETA: If you think the endings are great. Fine. I'm not advocating for their removal. I'm advocating the addition of other options. If your Shepard believes space god. Fine, jump in the hole, blow yourself up, have a grand old time of it, but my Shepard isn't about to believe someone he's never met, who he's not meeting in person, not when he knows Harbinger is a tricky SOB with access to holo tech (the end of Arrival).

Modifié par ecarden, 11 mars 2012 - 05:25 .

[Arthorius]

MY question is, since this little budy is in charge of the Reapers, why don't we just destroy the Citadel to free them?

I mean, deep inside them, there has to be something left of these countless races who were turned into giant-mechanical-genocidal-yet-humanist-space-squids, right?
The Reapers themselves could easely be indoctrinated by the God-child. After all, their logic is as flawed as Saren's or as Tim's.

[Khar-Goth]

Biotic Sage wrote...
You don't have to believe him.  Haven't we been over this?  You can choose to accept that he is telling the truth or not, but you have to pick one of the choices if you want to even have a chance at stopping the Reapers.

Uh... Let me re-phrase the ending in another way...

"Hi, I  am the creator of a bunch of robotic mass-murderers who kill people every few years because I believe it is needed to save them from being killed by robotic mass-murderers because despite any personal experiences you may have had I am telling you now that it is inevitable.

On a side note, congratulations flesh-bag on reaching this room on the Citadel, that no other flesh-bag has every stood in after millions of years of the Citadel being around, but the room was conveniently here anyways.

Oh, and because you just hooked up your big impressive super-weapon to the Citadel, here are three options for you to choose from and no you don't get to ask questions about why there are only three options or how they work or why I have them already for you to use, just pick one and get on with it.

By the way, two of those three options are the ones your previous enemies would have picked and the third one lets you commit genocide yourself including killing a friend and ally (despite the Geth and EDI being wholely synthetic and the Reapers being a synthesis of organic and synthetic parts, but lets not be picky about who it will kill).

Also, all of the options are going to completely screw over everyone you've ever met or talked to, largely resulting in the collapse of the galactic infrastructure and dooming millions of people to starve or die on colonies that can't sustain themselves because the Mass Relay network will be destroyed in the process.

Anyways, pick your poison flesh-bag and lets get on with it."

When phrased like that, what in there actually inspires you in any way to believe that any of the three choices he is giving you is above-the-board and really something that should work? Why in the hell wouldn't I be calling Hackett back and saying, "Sir, no, really, the problem has to be at your end. All I have here is some messed up psychopathic VI lying to me."

Modifié par Khar-Goth, 11 mars 2012 - 05:31 .

[Citizen Q]

Biotic Sage wrote...

Citizen Q wrote...

Biotic Sage wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Did you somehow miss the part where the Geth spared the Quarians who fled their world?
The Geth, synthetic lifeforms, chose to not exterminate organics, They CHOSE.

That alone disproves all of idiot childs brainless assertions.

If you believe that it disproves his assertion that's fine.  Then you should choose the destroy ending (but at the cost of genocide against the geth) or the control ending (at the cost of the Reapers still lurking out there).  Both of these endings would be terrible choices if the Pattern is actually true and it actually is inevitable for synthetics to eventually destroy organics.  But that's why it's a brilliant choice: you have to decide whether or not you believe him or not, and it is implied through the decision you make what your stance on the matter is.

Its not 'brilliant', it's bad writting / design to try and force an emotional response.

See my post above yours for further info.

I saw your above post.  I ignored it because I've already addressed that point in one of my earlier posts.  I'm not going to engage in circular arguments.

Doesn't change the fact that it's bad writing. It goes against all kinds of stuff in the ME universe and is little more than a copout / dues ex machina.

The answer to the question 'why does Shep believe the space douche' is still the same, bad writing / design.

[Biotic Sage]

@Everyone

Guys I really have nothing to add at this point. I've explained myself quite clearly. If you choose to consider what I've said that's up to you. Good discussion though. The one thing I came away with is that ecarden convinced me that Shepard should have at least TRIED to ask the Catalyst if there was another way.

[lasertank]

Biotic Sage wrote...

Dude, I'm not saying I personally think like I Reaper.  I agree, it is killing.  But to the Reapers, it is not killing.  It is perfectly logical considering they accept the Pattern as truth. 

I'm sorry if I get you wrong. But to Shepard and any other species in the universe, it's killing. So they will never agree with the "I create reaper to HARVEST you so won't get killed by the synthetics" idea. Therefore, Shepard should and would always consider possibilities other than the 3 pathetic choices. That's the point. Bioware trap you with a contrived situation and make you to choose from choices which in reality every one (you, me, shepard, or any other) would refuse. That's why the ending sucks. Not because it's dark. Even if the 3 choices are the only options, more argument should be done before the final moment. Not with the simple crappy talk given by the kid AI.

[Kastien]

This is one of my biggest problems with the terrible endings. First off, Why does Shepard accept that what this magical space kid is telling him is true? This is either the designer or master or god or whatever of the Reapers who are currently killing everyone. That kinda sounds like a bad guy.

Second, even if he DOES believe him, why would he accept his options? Still a bad guy, still giving him bad choices. Throughout the entire series, Shepard has been successful specifically because he does NOT believe when people tell him he can't do things, he always finds his own way.

The fact that Shep just sits there and accepts that his newly found arch-nemesis is telling him the truth, and works within the framework given to him is beyond ludicrous.

[GuyWithFace]

Biotic Sage wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Did you somehow miss the part where the Geth spared the Quarians who fled their world?
The Geth, synthetic lifeforms, chose to not exterminate organics, They CHOSE.

That alone disproves all of idiot childs brainless assertions.

If you believe that it disproves his assertion that's fine.  Then you should choose the destroy ending (but at the cost of genocide against the geth) or the control ending (at the cost of the Reapers still lurking out there).  Both of these endings would be terrible choices if the Pattern is actually true and it actually is inevitable for synthetics to eventually destroy organics.  But that's why it's a brilliant choice: you have to decide whether or not you believe him or not, and it is implied through the decision you make what your stance on the matter is.

I don't claim to be very smart, or very good with words, or very persuasive when it comes to debates, so I apologize if my own argument has some logical holes in it.

Your argument seems to be that the spacegodkid is correct, and it is completely inevitable that synthetics will eventually destroy all organic life if the Reapers don't intervene. You're also saying that the Control and Destroy endings would eventually lead to synthetics destroying all organics down the line with either of those choices.

What about the Synthesis ending? How would that prevent synthetics from destroying organics? I mean sure, at the time of the glowy space-magic explosion, all *CURRENT* organic and synthetic life are merged. If they still have free will, what's to stop them from creating purely synthetic "life" sometime in the future, that then deems itself "pure" and destroys its creators? The 'Cycle' would have still continued, and the Guardian had been completely wrong with the three choices it offered Shepard, according to its own beliefs that synthetics will inevitably destroy all organic life.

For being so sure of itself about this so-called Cycle, why do the only three choices it offers allow for the continuation of the very thing it tries to prevent? Why do our Shepards not put up any debate to its obviously poorly-thought-out choices for him?

Our entire hate for the ending is lack of choice based on what canon Shepard has been able to do in the past.

Quick edit: I'm not trying to say you're wrong or whatever for the debate you're putting up. I've very much enjoyed the back and forth in this thread, the myriad opinions offered, and the last half-hour I've spent reading it. 

Modifié par GuyWithFace, 11 mars 2012 - 05:36 .

[ecarden]

Kastien wrote...


This is one of my biggest problems with the terrible endings. First off, Why does Shepard accept that what this magical space kid is telling him is true? This is either the designer or master or god or whatever of the Reapers who are currently killing everyone. That kinda sounds like a bad guy.

Second, even if he DOES believe him, why would he accept his options? Still a bad guy, still giving him bad choices. Throughout the entire series, Shepard has been successful specifically because he does NOT believe when people tell him he can't do things, he always finds his own way.

The fact that Shep just sits there and accepts that his newly found arch-nemesis is telling him the truth, and works within the framework given to him is beyond ludicrous.

Exactly my complaint.

Maybe space god really is so powerful we have to play by his rules, but if I'm not allowed to argue with him, or even point out that his rules suck...

Then it's not Shepard, it's an empty, indoctrinated shell up there, doing what he's told, because he's been told.

ETA: And if I'm playing an indoctrinated Shepard, then I want the chance to fight my way out of it, as Saren and Benezia did in my playthrough and as the Illusive man did in other peoples. Maybe I can't escape, but I can try.

Only nope.

Modifié par ecarden, 11 mars 2012 - 05:36 .