222 réponses à ce sujet

[dkear1]

Khar-Goth wrote...

Biotic Sage wrote...
You don't have to believe him.  Haven't we been over this?  You can choose to accept that he is telling the truth or not, but you have to pick one of the choices if you want to even have a chance at stopping the Reapers.

Uh... Let me re-phrase the ending in another way...

"Hi, I  am the creator of a bunch of robotic mass-murderers who kill people every few years because I believe it is needed to save them from being killed by robotic mass-murderers because despite any personal experiences you may have had I am telling you now that it is inevitable.

On a side note, congratulations flesh-bag on reaching this room on the Citadel, that no other flesh-bag has every stood in after millions of years of the Citadel being around, but the room was conveniently here anyways.

Oh, and because you just hooked up your big impressive super-weapon to the Citadel, here are three options for you to choose from and no you don't get to ask questions about why there are only three options or how they work or why I have them already for you to use, just pick one and get on with it.

By the way, two of those three options are the ones your previous enemies would have picked and the third one lets you commit genocide yourself including killing a friend and ally (despite the Geth and EDI being wholely synthetic and the Reapers being a synthesis of organic and synthetic parts, but lets not be picky about who it will kill).

Also, all of the options are going to completely screw over everyone you've ever met or talked to, largely resulting in the collapse of the galactic infrastructure and dooming millions of people to starve or die on colonies that can't sustain themselves because the Mass Relay network will be destroyed in the process.

Anyways, pick your poison flesh-bag and lets get on with it."

When phrased like that, what in there actually inspires you in any way to believe that any of the three choices he is giving you is above-the-board and really something that should work? Why in the hell wouldn't I be calling Hackett back and saying, "Sir, no, really, the problem has to be at your end. All I have here is some messed up psychopathic VI lying to me."

Architect.......is that you?????  Is Shepard really Neo??????  LOL!

[ecarden]

GuyWithFace wrote...

Biotic Sage wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Did you somehow miss the part where the Geth spared the Quarians who fled their world?
The Geth, synthetic lifeforms, chose to not exterminate organics, They CHOSE.

That alone disproves all of idiot childs brainless assertions.

If you believe that it disproves his assertion that's fine.  Then you should choose the destroy ending (but at the cost of genocide against the geth) or the control ending (at the cost of the Reapers still lurking out there).  Both of these endings would be terrible choices if the Pattern is actually true and it actually is inevitable for synthetics to eventually destroy organics.  But that's why it's a brilliant choice: you have to decide whether or not you believe him or not, and it is implied through the decision you make what your stance on the matter is.

I don't claim to be very smart, or very good with words, or very persuasive when it comes to debates, so I apologize if my own argument has some logical holes in it.

Your argument seems to be that the spacegodkid is correct, and it is completely inevitable that synthetics will eventually destroy all organic life if the Reapers don't intervene. You're also saying that the Control and Destroy endings would eventually lead to synthetics destroying all organics down the line with either of those choices.

What about the Synthesis ending? How would that prevent synthetics from destroying organics? I mean sure, at the time of the glowy space-magic explosion, all *CURRENT* organic and synthetic life are merged. If they still have free will, what's to stop them from creating purely synthetic "life" sometime in the future, that then deems itself "pure" and destroys its creators? The 'Cycle' would have still continued, and the Guardian had been completely wrong with the three choices it offered Shepard, according to its own beliefs that synthetics will inevitably destroy all organic life.

For being so sure of itself about this so-called Cycle, why do the only three choices it offers allow for the continuation of the very thing it tries to prevent? Why do our Shepards not put up any debate to its obviously poorly-thought-out choices for him?

Our entire hate for the ending is lack of choice based on what canon Shepard has been able to do in the past.

Quick edit: I'm not trying to say you're wrong or whatever for the debate you're putting up. I've very much enjoyed the back and forth in this thread, the myriad opinions offered, and the last half-hour I've spent reading it. 

I think, though I may be mistaken, that the synthesis ending breaks the cycle because there's no more solely organic life to destroy, so there's nothing for the Guardian to guard. The other two options don't break the cycle at all, partly because of bad writing, partly because they're offered to you by someone who doesn't want the cycle to end.

Which is part of what makes me crazy about this. It's like if the designers of Bioshock had decided to end the game after the death of Andrew Ryan, laughing at the whole notion of choice.

[Biotic Sage]

GuyWithFace wrote...

Your argument seems to be that the spacegodkid is correct, and it is completely inevitable that synthetics will eventually destroy all organic life if the Reapers don't intervene.

Well I'm going to have to stop you there.  That's actually not what my argument is at all. 

If it makes any difference to you, I personally reject the Catalyst's assertion that synthetics will inevitably destroy organics.

Modifié par Biotic Sage, 11 mars 2012 - 05:43 .

[ecarden]

Biotic Sage wrote...

@Everyone

Guys I really have nothing to add at this point. I've explained myself quite clearly. If you choose to consider what I've said that's up to you. Good discussion though. The one thing I came away with is that ecarden convinced me that Shepard should have at least TRIED to ask the Catalyst if there was another way.

It's been nice talking, so to type, with you. Sorry if I came off as a bit harsh at times. I'm not pissed at you (assuming you aren't secretly the Bioware folks who wrote/requested/approved this ending).

[Biotic Sage]

ecarden wrote...

Biotic Sage wrote...

@Everyone

Guys I really have nothing to add at this point. I've explained myself quite clearly. If you choose to consider what I've said that's up to you. Good discussion though. The one thing I came away with is that ecarden convinced me that Shepard should have at least TRIED to ask the Catalyst if there was another way.

It's been nice talking, so to type, with you. Sorry if I came off as a bit harsh at times. I'm not pissed at you (assuming you aren't secretly the Bioware folks who wrote/requested/approved this ending).

Haha I wish I was.  That would be far better than my job at a hotel front desk.  And I don't think you were harsh, just making your points.

[Averdi]

I can't accept that a Shepard whose largest and most recent evidence of organic/synthetic interaction is the peace and cooperation between the geth and quarians, would accept at face value the catalyst's presumption of ultimate conflict and organic destruction. Nor could I envision him accepting the choices presented based upon that presumption.

[ecarden]

Biotic Sage wrote...

ecarden wrote...

Biotic Sage wrote...

@Everyone

Guys I really have nothing to add at this point. I've explained myself quite clearly. If you choose to consider what I've said that's up to you. Good discussion though. The one thing I came away with is that ecarden convinced me that Shepard should have at least TRIED to ask the Catalyst if there was another way.

It's been nice talking, so to type, with you. Sorry if I came off as a bit harsh at times. I'm not pissed at you (assuming you aren't secretly the Bioware folks who wrote/requested/approved this ending).

Haha I wish I was.  That would be far better than my job at a hotel front desk.  And I don't think you were harsh, just making your points.

Good to hear. Sometimes it's hard to convey tone online.

[Almostfaceman]

Biotic Sage wrote...

Who says Shepard believes him? He literally has NO OTHER CHOICE. He can either make the leap of faith on what the Catalyst says or he can watch Earth burn. Seriously people.

Right, and that's a flaw in the game, because Shepard would choose something else.

[Almostfaceman]

Biotic Sage wrote...

Reapers do not kill.  They harvest and "preserve."  A Reaper is made up of the DNA of an entire species.  In a twisted way they are preserving organics the best way they can if they truly believe in the Pattern.  That's not bad logic when you are basing it off the assumption of the Pattern.

Reapers DO kill, they only harvest a portion of a population for ascension. And that's if they deem a race "worthy". The Protheans were not ascended. The rest are dead or might as well be dead. Vigil said so himself. And it happens during the war in ME3.

[lasertank]

Biotic Sage wrote...

Who says Shepard believes him? He literally has NO OTHER CHOICE. He can either make the leap of faith on what the Catalyst says or he can watch Earth burn. Seriously people.

Of course he can watch Earth burn. This is war and he knows what sacrifice is. Only a weak politician like Udina would accept what he's given.

[ecarden]

lasertank wrote...

Biotic Sage wrote...

Who says Shepard believes him? He literally has NO OTHER CHOICE. He can either make the leap of faith on what the Catalyst says or he can watch Earth burn. Seriously people.

Of course he can watch Earth burn. This is war and he knows what sacrifice is. Only a weak politician like Udina would accept what he's given.

That's one option (a neutral option, perhaps, but one that might be used to force space god's hand).

I give my paragon, talk him to leaving option above.

For the renegade option...maybe a threat: if it can do the listed options, it can do far more. Stop this. Destroy the reapers, or I use it to destroy everything. No more games for you to play. No more organics for you to 'preserve' no more reapers for you to use. Just still silence forever you sadistic little twerp. I don't play by your rules. You destroy your toys, or I destroy everything.

Hey, six options, some of which don't end with terribly crippling damage to the galaxy and some which do. Everyone gets what they want. Assuming that you also have an epilogue wherein you give what happens with other things (Rannoch, Tuchanka, squad mates, LI, Shepard). 

My Shepard is going to be commander of the new and improved Grissom Academy (with Jack at his side, or with him at Jack's side), working to train new generations of every species not to be ****s, under pain of a sharp talking to from the man who faced down the reapers and their master alike and talked them to death (or flight, or something).

What about you folks?

[Biotic Sage]

lasertank wrote...

Biotic Sage wrote...

Who says Shepard believes him? He literally has NO OTHER CHOICE. He can either make the leap of faith on what the Catalyst says or he can watch Earth burn. Seriously people.

Of course he can watch Earth burn. This is war and he knows what sacrifice is. Only a weak politician like Udina would accept what he's given.

Sacrifice is for a purpose.  How would watching Earth burn achieve anything?  The only thing that could possibly achieve is you being able to say that your Shepard died, along with the rest of the intelligent life in the galaxy mind you, without playing along with the Catalyst.    Suck up your pride a bit and do what needs to be done.

[ecarden]

Biotic Sage wrote...

lasertank wrote...

Biotic Sage wrote...

Who says Shepard believes him? He literally has NO OTHER CHOICE. He can either make the leap of faith on what the Catalyst says or he can watch Earth burn. Seriously people.

Of course he can watch Earth burn. This is war and he knows what sacrifice is. Only a weak politician like Udina would accept what he's given.

Sacrifice is for a purpose.  How would watching Earth burn achieve anything?  The only thing that could possibly achieve is you being able to say that your Shepard died, along with the rest of the intelligent life in the galaxy mind you, without playing along with the Catalyst.    Suck up your pride a bit and do what needs to be done.

Well, the way I'd game it out as a neutral, would be to have the entire surrounding fleet threaten to fire on the citidel, eliminating the control the Catalyst has (eta: along with the Catalyst) and (edit to correct grammar error, need sleep) thus create the exact scenario he's been trying to prevent. Uncontrolled synthetics threatening to extinguish all life in the galaxy, unless he gets rid of the Reapers.

ETA: Yes, I know the Citidel is supposedly invulnerable, just like the mass relays.

Modifié par ecarden, 11 mars 2012 - 06:36 .

[CareerKnight]

Biotic Sage wrote...
If it makes any difference to you, I personally reject the Catalyst's assertion that synthetics will inevitably destroy organics.

You have done a poor job of communicating that fact since many of your previous arguments seem to hinge on accepting as fact that citadel is correct that synthetics will inevitably destroy organics.

Modifié par CareerKnight, 11 mars 2012 - 06:37 .

[The Angry One]

Yeah watch Earth burn as opposed to what, setting off the Crucible on the idiot child's word alone which turns out to.... destroy Earth.
Stop kidding yourself, no matter the ending. That station's mass impacting Earth will royally screw it over.

Besides, watching Earth burn to fight the Reapers is infinitely preferably to submitting to them.
Because that is what you're doing. Bowing to the head Reaper and asking for orders. Enjoy your indoctrination, Commander Saren.

[ecarden]

CareerKnight wrote...

Biotic Sage wrote...
If it makes any difference to you, I personally reject the Catalyst's assertion that synthetics will inevitably destroy organics.

You have done a poor job of communicating that fact since many of your previous arguments seem to hinge on accepting as fact that citadel is correct that synthetics will inevitably destroy organics.

I don't want to speak for Biotic Sage, but I believe what they're arguing is that it doesn't matter if the catalyst is right or not. Those are the only options available to us.

I agree with that.

My objection is to precisely that fact.

ETA: Or, to clarify. I acknowledge that the game is designed such that those are the only options. I protest said design, both verbally (see this thread) and monetarily (see this: http://social.biowar...5/index/9724077  one).

Modifié par ecarden, 11 mars 2012 - 06:42 .

[Biotic Sage]

CareerKnight wrote...

Biotic Sage wrote...
If it makes any difference to you, I personally reject the Catalyst's assertion that synthetics will inevitably destroy organics.

You have done a poor job of communicating that fact since many of your previous arguments seem to hinge on accepting as fact that citadel is correct that synthetics will inevitably destroy organics.

Not to be mean, but if you can't comprehend my argument that's not on me.

I've repeatedly stated that the Quarian/Geth situation does not disprove the Catalyst, but that it doesn't prove the Catalyst's assertion either.  It does nothing either way.  The Geth could still eventually destroy all organics, we just don't know for sure.

I've repeatedly stated that the Catalyst may or may not be telling the truth about synthetics always destroying organics, but it is irrelevant: Shepard must act to stop the Reapers, he needs to do something because there's nothing else to be done at that point.  He doesnt' have to believe the Catalyst, but he has to try one of the options because those are the only options that even have a chance of defeating the Reapers. 

And as I said, I reject the Catalyst's assertion about synthetics and organics.  That's why I chose the "Destroy" ending.  Although the death of the Geth is regrettable, the Reapers are destroyed once and for all, and the races of the galaxy are free to rebuild naturally, without the Reaper threat to worry about.  It is inevitable that one day they will create AI again, so obviously I am saying that I'm willing to take the chance that we can learn from our mistakes and treat Artificial Life with respect and dignity, and that it's not inevitable for synthetics to rise up against us.

[Biotic Sage]

ecarden wrote...

CareerKnight wrote...

Biotic Sage wrote...
If it makes any difference to you, I personally reject the Catalyst's assertion that synthetics will inevitably destroy organics.

You have done a poor job of communicating that fact since many of your previous arguments seem to hinge on accepting as fact that citadel is correct that synthetics will inevitably destroy organics.

I don't want to speak for Biotic Sage, but I believe what they're arguing is that it doesn't matter if the catalyst is right or not. Those are the only options available to us.

I agree with that.

My objection is to precisely that fact.

ETA: Or, to clarify. I acknowledge that the game is designed such that those are the only options. I protest said design, both verbally (see this thread) and monetarily (see this: http://social.biowar...5/index/9724077  one).

That's exactly it.  You can speak for me.  We understand each other and we understand where we disagree.

[Almostfaceman]

ecarden wrote...

I don't want to speak for Biotic Sage, but I believe what they're arguing is that it doesn't matter if the catalyst is right or not. Those are the only options available to us.

I agree with that.

My objection is to precisely that fact.

ETA: Or, to clarify. I acknowledge that the game is designed such that those are the only options. I protest said design, both verbally (see this thread) and monetarily (see this: http://social.biowar...5/index/9724077  one).

Roger that we have go for lift-off Houston.

[Phoenix_Fyre]

I'm sadly going to say that the plot demands it....

Makes me wonder if Shep was just so exhausted he/she finally gave up?


Or..... just a chornic case of HERP DERP?

[Almostfaceman]

The Angry One wrote...

Yeah watch Earth burn as opposed to what, setting off the Crucible on the idiot child's word alone which turns out to.... destroy Earth.
Stop kidding yourself, no matter the ending. That station's mass impacting Earth will royally screw it over.

Besides, watching Earth burn to fight the Reapers is infinitely preferably to submitting to them.
Because that is what you're doing. Bowing to the head Reaper and asking for orders. Enjoy your indoctrination, Commander Saren.

Either the station, or the relay blowing the heck up. 

I wonder how people can assert the relay doesn't blow up. We simply do not know if this is the case or not - it's one of those questions left unanswered.

If the relay or the station don't do it, there's still a ton of debris from the battle. 

Plus, there's survivors, with damaged ships.

Folks say they have FTL to get home, but in reality, none of the ships are designed for extened "between relay" travel. Imagine having to store food and fuel - it would require retrofits to say the least. This would of course cause a lot of angry/hungry/desperate humans and aliens to fight over whatever resources are left in the system.

*sigh* what a mess.

[ecarden]

The Angry One wrote...

Yeah watch Earth burn as opposed to what, setting off the Crucible on the idiot child's word alone which turns out to.... destroy Earth.
Stop kidding yourself, no matter the ending. That station's mass impacting Earth will royally screw it over.

Besides, watching Earth burn to fight the Reapers is infinitely preferably to submitting to them.
Because that is what you're doing. Bowing to the head Reaper and asking for orders. Enjoy your indoctrination, Commander Saren.

And, again, this would be better than the implication that Shepard, the Shepard I shaped (for me) and that you shaped (for you) suddenly, in the last seconds of the battle of his/her life, gave up and went 'meh, good enough.'

I'm sorry, but no. My Shepard survived Akuze, survived Virmire, survived Omega 4. You say I can't save everyone, no ****, but that doesn't mean I don't try and it doesn't mean I go quietly because space god says so, not unless I actually have been indoctrinated and even then I want a shot at breaking it, if only for a moment.

ETA: That you was directed at Bioware, not The Angry One

Modifié par ecarden, 11 mars 2012 - 06:57 .

[Heather Cline]

Because the ME team were a bunch of jerks and decided that Shepard had to believe the AI thingy at the end.

[CareerKnight]

ecarden wrote...
I don't want to speak for Biotic Sage, but I believe what they're arguing is that it doesn't matter if the catalyst is right or not. Those are the only options available to us.

Apologies, I think I got him confused with some of the things HrzRanok was saying. in my defense I did read through all 7 pages and its late.

[ecarden]

Heather Cline wrote...

Because the ME team were a bunch of jerks and decided that Shepard had to believe the AI thingy at the end.

(EDIT to remove possible code of conduct violation) I was hoping for an in universe explanation. Thus far we've got:

Shepard exhausted and despairing.

To which I say Akuze and maxed rep bar.

Shepard indoctrinated.

Possible, but if so, I want a chance to fight, or some evidence to support it.

Shepard stupid.

Screw that.

Shepard does what he has to do.

Without question or argument? No.

Modifié par ecarden, 11 mars 2012 - 07:15 .