222 réponses à ce sujet

[ecarden]

CareerKnight wrote...

ecarden wrote...
I don't want to speak for Biotic Sage, but I believe what they're arguing is that it doesn't matter if the catalyst is right or not. Those are the only options available to us.

Apologies, I think I got him confused with some of the things HrzRanok was saying. in my defense I did read through all 7 pages and its late.

I understand. I've had to do some editting for typos and grammar errors as I drift off into the land of nightmares (of space gods explaining how I've wasted hundreds of hours of my life creating shepards who will never see the ending, because it sucks).

[Almostfaceman]

Heather Cline wrote...

Because the ME team were a bunch of jerks and decided that Shepard had to believe the AI thingy at the end.

Let's not resort to name-calling that won't get us anywhere when trying to make our case. Besides, they're not going to tolerate abuse towards the staff. Just a friendly heads-up.

[ecarden]

Almostfaceman wrote...

Heather Cline wrote...

Because the ME team were a bunch of jerks and decided that Shepard had to believe the AI thingy at the end.

Let's not resort to name-calling that won't get us anywhere when trying to make our case. Besides, they're not going to tolerate abuse towards the staff. Just a friendly heads-up.

Fair point. I've editted my response to remove a quasi-endorsement of Heather's position.

ETA: Bed calls. I'll check in tomorrow morning and respond to any new responses.

Modifié par ecarden, 11 mars 2012 - 07:16 .

[The Angry One]

ecarden wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Yeah watch Earth burn as opposed to what, setting off the Crucible on the idiot child's word alone which turns out to.... destroy Earth.
Stop kidding yourself, no matter the ending. That station's mass impacting Earth will royally screw it over.

Besides, watching Earth burn to fight the Reapers is infinitely preferably to submitting to them.
Because that is what you're doing. Bowing to the head Reaper and asking for orders. Enjoy your indoctrination, Commander Saren.

And, again, this would be better than the implication that Shepard, the Shepard I shaped (for me) and that you shaped (for you) suddenly, in the last seconds of the battle of his/her life, gave up and went 'meh, good enough.'

I'm sorry, but no. My Shepard survived Akuze, survived Virmire, survived Omega 4. You say I can't save everyone, no ****, but that doesn't mean I don't try and it doesn't mean I go quietly because space god says so, not unless I actually have been indoctrinated and even then I want a shot at breaking it, if only for a moment.

ETA: That you was directed at Bioware, not The Angry One

Yeah I figured. 
I fully agree. Every single other time Shepard has been presented with an ultimatum, Shepard has been determined to win. Determined to find a way. It doesn't matter if it's hopeless or it's a suicide mission. Shepard is going to try. And try we did. And if we worked, we succeeded!
Suddenly at the end of it all Shepard just... gives up. Settles. Compromises. BS.

[Biotic Sage]

CareerKnight wrote...

ecarden wrote...
I don't want to speak for Biotic Sage, but I believe what they're arguing is that it doesn't matter if the catalyst is right or not. Those are the only options available to us.

Apologies, I think I got him confused with some of the things HrzRanok was saying. in my defense I did read through all 7 pages and its late.

I feel better then, it was frustrating to think that what I was saying was that unclear.  And I apologize if I let my frustration show there.  The late at night factor has come into play for me more than a few times on these forums as well.

[taylortexas]

Y'know, I was so frustrated by the ending being a complete illusion of choice that I didn't even get a chance to consider how illogical and contradictory the Guardian actually is. Indeed, Shepard has proven the AI's "irrefutable" theory to be inaccurate, and has done so long before coming face-to-face with it. With a perfect view of a burning Earth and the galaxy's attempts to redeem it, all it takes is a simple glance out the window to see that the quarians and geth are working side-by-side. Not only that, but their battles in the past were completely brought on by organic paranoia. The synthetic geth only want peace for their species and self-preservation in the long run. It becomes very clear that they mean no harm to others, except in a self-defense scenario. And even after the quarians attempts to eradicate the geth, they chose to let them escape Rannoch and attempt to rebuild their species. A synthetic race chose to avoid organic genocide hundreds of years before Shepard was even born, or Legion was able to finally declare "I" instead of "we".

This undeniable knowledge, combined with the fact that Shepard has united the quarians and geth, punches quite the loophole in the Guardian's logic. Not to mention the fact that sending synthetic genocidal doomsday devices to wipe out all organic life so that their own synthetic creations can't do it first is... well... it just literally doesn't make sense.

And so now my frustrations have only been amplified. Not only are there seventeen painfully similar endings, but the "god" of Mass Effect's universe can't even coherently justify bringing this illusion of choice on Shepard.

Modifié par taylortexas, 11 mars 2012 - 08:22 .

[ecarden]

taylortexas wrote...

Y'know, I was so frustrated by the ending being a complete illusion of choice that I didn't even get a chance to consider how illogical and contradictory the Guardian actually is. Indeed, Shepard has proven the AI's "irrefutable" theory to be inaccurate, and has done so long before coming face-to-face with it. With a perfect view of a burning Earth and the galaxy's attempts to redeem it, all it takes is a simple glance out the window to see that the quarians and geth are working side-by-side. Not only that, but their battles in the past were completely brought on by organic paranoia. The synthetic geth only want peace for their species and self-preservation in the long run. It becomes very clear that they mean no harm to others, except in a self-defense scenario. And even after the quarians attempts to eradicate the geth, they chose to let them escape Rannoch and attempt to rebuild their species. A synthetic race chose to avoid organic genocide hundreds of years before Shepard was even born, or Legion was able to finally declare "I" instead of "we".

This undeniable knowledge, combined with the fact that Shepard has united the quarians and geth, punches quite the loophole in the Guardian's logic. Not to mention the fact that sending synthetic genocidal doomsday devices to wipe out all organic life so that their own synthetic creations can't do it first is... well... it just literally doesn't make sense.

And so now my frustrations have only been amplified. Not only are there seventeen painfully similar endings, but the "god" of Mass Effect's universe can't even coherently justify bringing this illusion of choice on Shepard.

I agree with all this, but since space god appears in the last five minutes, with no suggestion up to that point that it's space god, I actually only sort of object to its logic being crap. Maybe it was badly programmed, or just went nuts from being alone most of the time, but we don't know enough about it to accurately judge what's wrong with it (my personal theory involves it messing us about to get what it wants, the end of galactic civilization in our cycle) BUT the character we know best, the one whose actions we've observed for five years and whose motivations we've, mostly, created for ourselves suddenly folds...

Just, no.

I don't buy it and I won't buy anything else from Bioware and EA until they demonstrate I can trust them again.

I'm not asking for my money back (the game was well worth the price of admission, see: Death, Kai Leng of) but I am asking for what I was promised, a shot at a golden ending. Until then...

TLDR: Mass effect 3 is worth the cost of the game. It's not worth how it made this, long time Mass Effect/Bioware fan feel at the ending.

[Heather Cline]

There is only 7 endings taylortexas, not 17. The game guide states so. 4 endings that differ slightly based on your galaxy readiness and how much resources you have and how badly the earth is off which means earth destroyed to severely damaged which are the destroy ending where you didn't have enough of those resources and galaxy readiness. 2 are the control and the synergy ones. the last one is the destroy again but only Shepard survives. That's it no other endings other than the secret ending if you play the game again with the same Shepard.

Literally the endings suck and as for why she/he believes the AI space guardian, it makes no sense. There is no logical reason to believe it, and the fact there is so many plot holes in the ending like the Normandy being in a hyperspace jump makes no sense at all either.

[Iztiak]

Yeah, 7 supposed endings that have the same things happen. lol

http://i.imgur.com/KbrMI.jpg

[Myrmedus]

I dunno, if I was talking to a 40+ million year old AI that's seen everything there is to see while almost mortally wounded I think I'd probably consider what it had to say.

[ecarden]

Myrmedus wrote...

I dunno, if I was talking to a 40+ million year old AI that's seen everything there is to see while almost mortally wounded I think I'd probably consider what it had to say.

Despite the fact that it admits (or claims, if I don't trust its statements about what it can do, I see no reason to trust its statements about what it is) to being in charge of the Reapers, you know, the genocidal bad guys Shepards been fighting all along?

Despite the fact that he has no evidence that it's actually said AI and not Harbinger trying to screw with him (we saw Harbringer using holo tech at the end of Arrival, after all)?

Without question, or argument?

If that's who your Shepard is, fine, I'm not arguing that your endings should be taken away and rendered null and void because I think they're badly written, I am arguing for other endings to be made available to those who don't buy into the space god says jump, Shepard says sure, into that hole, those wires, or that exploding thing?

ETA: Typo correction

Modifié par ecarden, 12 mars 2012 - 03:06 .

[HrzRanok]

You know what bioware should have done to silence many of you who do not get it.
Allow the disney vanilla ending. Shephard saves everything, the galaxy wins.

Then show about 10k years later with the galaxy completely devoid of life. No reapers, no AI no nothing because everyone destroyed themselves.

There you go, your vanilla disney ending.

The point is you can say "Why didn't they just leave the relays intact?"
Because that is what would have eventually happened.

I also find it hilarious that people are saying "well if it could have happened it would have happened already.." then in the same reply say "but it would never happen.."

If it could have or did happen in the past, then it would have happened in the future.
Can't have it both ways everyone. Either its not possible therefore it never happened in the past either. Or it happened in the past which means it would happen in the future.
Take your pick.

The you say "Why should he believe the guardian?"
Because if the guardian had any dire intent he would have never even offered the synthetic or control option.
In fact if it had any dire intent it wouldn't have offered him any solutions. It could have just simply shot shephard in the head and said "screw you I win.."

Modifié par HrzRanok, 12 mars 2012 - 05:44 .

[Unfallen_Satan]

My Shepard does not believe in "Space God," at least not the holographic representation of whatever intelligence is controlling the Reapers.

[HrzRanok]

Unfallen_Satan wrote...

My Shepard does not believe in "Space God," at least not the holographic representation of whatever intelligence is controlling the Reapers.

Then fine he stands there, does nothing and waits while the reapers destroy everything and the cycle remains in place.

Shephard had that option of not believing the guardian.

If your shephard believed in doing nothing then fine when the game gets to the point of 3 choices. Just shut it off and start a new shephard convinced that your shephard just stood there and watched the galaxy implode.

[rvgifford]

HrzRanok wrote...

Simple answer. Guardian was there before the reapers were in place. A time that we do not know what happened. He saw what WILL happen if life is left to evolve on its own. Basically there will be no peace, eventually synthetics will take over and kill everything.
The guardian has to be believe, and shephard believes him as well because he knows this is the only person who would have that kind of knowledge to know what will happen if the cycle is ended and organics are left free to evolve and create a synthetic life form that would wipe out everything.

There is little reason NOT to believe it.

Wow. Really? Threre is every reason to NOT believe it. Perhaps you're far too gullible or we're far too cynical. Maybe both. Right after control was exerted by the Illusive man, it would make no sense to do anything anyone tells you you HAVE to do. Those options would have been fine if there was also an option to flip off the Catalyst and walk away or something . . . anything that actually made sense.

HrzRanok wrote...

Shephard had that option of not believing the guardian. 

If your shephard believed in doing nothing then fine when the game gets to the point of 3 choices. Just shut it off and start a new shephard convinced that your shephard just stood there and watched the galaxy implode.

 

First, no Shep did not have that option unless you are saying turning off your PS3 in disgust was the option. That's what I did. I sat there in confusion then went to youtube to see if the endings really were as contrived as they appeared . . . and they were. My response . . . I turned the system off.

And if Shep decided not to believe the Catalyst it wouldn't involve him just standing there. The "Galactic Alliance"would fight, possibly, even probably lose, but that should have been an option at the very least. Being forced into one of three Deus Ex like endings where you push a button . . . wait, walk down a different path, is just plain idiotic, especially with the master of all Reapers telling you what to do.

Modifié par rvgifford, 12 mars 2012 - 05:55 .

[Citizen Q]

HrzRanok wrote...

You know what bioware should have done to silence many of you who do not get it.
Allow the disney vanilla ending. Shephard saves everything, the galaxy wins.

Then show about 10k years later with the galaxy completely devoid of life. No reapers, no AI no nothing because everyone destroyed themselves.

There you go, your vanilla disney ending.

The point is you can say "Why didn't they just leave the relays intact?"
Because that is what would have eventually happened.

I also find it hilarious that people are saying "well if it could have happened it would have happened already.." then in the same reply say "but it would never happen.."

If it could have or did happen in the past, then it would have happened in the future.
Can't have it both ways everyone. Either its not possible therefore it never happened in the past either. Or it happened in the past which means it would happen in the future.
Take your pick.

The you say "Why should he believe the guardian?"
Because if the guardian had any dire intent he would have never even offered the synthetic or control option.
In fact if it had any dire intent it wouldn't have offered him any solutions. It could have just simply shot shephard in the head and said "screw you I win.."

Again, you have ZERO observable proof that this is the case, outside of a genocidal godchild TELLING you it is in order to justify his own actions. In fact the exact  opposite case, synthetics helping organics, is very likely already happening in the battle that is raging while Shep is talking to the Dues Ex Machina.

[HrzRanok]

The relays are a lie. The guardian is a lie. The reapers needed to be destroyed. So what if that meant all of the Mass effect relays blew up because of it.
The galaxy is better off without them and the reapers.

Like it or not. There was no way out of what shephard intended.
His goal was to end the cycle and destroy the repears. The consequence of that was all mass relays all over are gone.

So the next question then to ask.

If the guardian would have simply said. You want us gone? then fine destroy us but we take our relays with us. because without all the fluff and glamour that is basically what he is saying.

What options would he have had then?

If you were in Shephards shoes what would have done?

[Korhiann]

Biotic Sage wrote...

Who says Shepard believes him? He literally has NO OTHER CHOICE. He can either make the leap of faith on what the Catalyst says or he can watch Earth burn. Seriously people.

Given how the god child is a walking talking logical fallacy Shepard should at the very least have tried to reason with it.
Failing that, giving the finger and making your own choice seems fitting.

[rvgifford]

HrzRanok wrote...

You know what bioware should have done to silence many of you who do not get it.
Allow the disney vanilla ending. Shephard saves everything, the galaxy wins.

Then show about 10k years later with the galaxy completely devoid of life. No reapers, no AI no nothing because everyone destroyed themselves.

There you go, your vanilla disney ending.

Actually if you want to accuse people of "not getting it" you don't seem to get it. As far as I can tell, most people want an ending that makes sense, not a happy fairy tale ending. There are definitely some people who want a happy ending. They played their Shep for the last several years over more than a hundred hours.

I wouldn't be opposed to a happy (read happier) ending, but that is not the point made by most. The point is the ending as is sucks, makes zero sense, and offers nada in the way of closure. Happy ending optional, good ending mandatory.

Modifié par rvgifford, 12 mars 2012 - 05:56 .

[HrzRanok]

Citizen Q wrote...

HrzRanok wrote...

You know what bioware should have done to silence many of you who do not get it.
Allow the disney vanilla ending. Shephard saves everything, the galaxy wins.

Then show about 10k years later with the galaxy completely devoid of life. No reapers, no AI no nothing because everyone destroyed themselves.

There you go, your vanilla disney ending.

The point is you can say "Why didn't they just leave the relays intact?"
Because that is what would have eventually happened.

I also find it hilarious that people are saying "well if it could have happened it would have happened already.." then in the same reply say "but it would never happen.."

If it could have or did happen in the past, then it would have happened in the future.
Can't have it both ways everyone. Either its not possible therefore it never happened in the past either. Or it happened in the past which means it would happen in the future.
Take your pick.

The you say "Why should he believe the guardian?"
Because if the guardian had any dire intent he would have never even offered the synthetic or control option.
In fact if it had any dire intent it wouldn't have offered him any solutions. It could have just simply shot shephard in the head and said "screw you I win.."

Again, you have ZERO observable proof that this is the case, outside of a genocidal godchild TELLING you it is in order to justify his own actions. In fact the exact  opposite case, synthetics helping organics, is very likely already happening in the battle that is raging while Shep is talking to the Dues Ex Machina.

as i said. then fine bioware should release and ending where you basically tell the guardian to go shove himself and watch as the galaxy gets harevested just as before with Shep powerless to do anything.

Not to mention the fact that his wounds were pretty dire and he probably would have keeled over and died if left for too much longer.

Your telling me there is not a 4th option. There is. If you don't believe the guardian then dont.
Then tell me what else he could have done.

Your also taking the crucible as a savior. It wasn't. It was just another method of control.
Yet the crucible was the ONLY way to defeat the reapers. Yet using it would have destroyed the mass relays all over the galaxy.
Now faced with that everyone would have walked away from the crucible the instant they found that out. The catch is that if you don't use the crucible the reapers win.

There is your options A B or C.
Your asking for option D. Fine option D is you stand there and die, galaxy loses, reapers win.
Why does Shep believe the guardian. In all likelihood he didn't but knew this was the only way.

[HrzRanok]

rvgifford wrote...

HrzRanok wrote...

You know what bioware should have done to silence many of you who do not get it.
Allow the disney vanilla ending. Shephard saves everything, the galaxy wins.

Then show about 10k years later with the galaxy completely devoid of life. No reapers, no AI no nothing because everyone destroyed themselves.

There you go, your vanilla disney ending.

Actually if you want to accuse people of "not getting it" you don't seem to get it. As far as I can tell, most people want an ending that makes sense, not a happy fairy tale ending. There are definitely some people who want a happy ending. They played their Shep for the last several years over more than a hundred hours.

I wouldn't be opposed to a happy (read happier) ending, but that is not the point made by most. The point is the ending as is sucks, makes zero sense, and offers nada in the way of closure. Happy ending optional, good ending mandatory.

Okie dokie. So whats your ending

[Computron2000]

The Angry One wrote...
HE CONTRADICTS HIMSELF. HE IS SYNTHETIC. HE WANTS TO PRESERVE ORGANIC LIFE.

Not sure if this has been addressed in any of the other pages but this is not a contradiction. It is entire plausible that the idiotic child was something like EDI and Legion, becoming fixated (even infatuated) with an organic.

It is also entire plausible that the said idiotic child when tasked (by his organic friend or himself) to save organics against some synethic invasion or rebellion, came to the conclusion that organics have a geometric probablilty of being overrun by synthetics (other than idiotic child) as time increases. Hence said plan of having the Reapers kill every 50k years is plausible.

My problem is not with what idiotic child says. My problem is with why idiotic child exists in the first place, killing everything we did and chose in ME1,2,3 and having only one line in ME3 by the Protean VI talking about him.

Furthermore, my biggest problem is with the 3 choices of which is utterly idiotic when one is sober and not half dead like Shepard. Its logical for Shepard to be in so much pain he/she no longer thinks clearly but not us, the players. 

Of the ending choices i would have just told the idiotic kid to destroy the Reapers and leave everything else alone, then broadcast a message of explaination on what he did and why aka educate the galaxy. Frankly humans are more likely to be destroyed by the Krogan than the Geth or EDI in my playthrough

Modifié par Computron2000, 12 mars 2012 - 06:03 .

[blah64]

Because the whole sequence is an indoctrination dream! Or so I hope....

[Gernbuster]

Am I right? Bioware wanted the Mass Effect universe to get on. They produce comics, books and plan a Movie.
It simple makes no scence to destroy the Mass Relays if u want to go on.

I am sure this is just the best PR ever and all we saw so far is shepards dream after he killed the illusive man.

[ecarden]

HrzRanok wrote...

You know what bioware should have done to silence many of you who do not get it.
Allow the disney vanilla ending. Shephard saves everything, the galaxy wins.

Then show about 10k years later with the galaxy completely devoid of life. No reapers, no AI no nothing because everyone destroyed themselves.

There you go, your vanilla disney ending.

The point is you can say "Why didn't they just leave the relays intact?"
Because that is what would have eventually happened.

I also find it hilarious that people are saying "well if it could have happened it would have happened already.." then in the same reply say "but it would never happen.."

If it could have or did happen in the past, then it would have happened in the future.
Can't have it both ways everyone. Either its not possible therefore it never happened in the past either. Or it happened in the past which means it would happen in the future.
Take your pick.

The you say "Why should he believe the guardian?"
Because if the guardian had any dire intent he would have never even offered the synthetic or control option.
In fact if it had any dire intent it wouldn't have offered him any solutions. It could have just simply shot shephard in the head and said "screw you I win.."

I have no idea who you're talking to, as I haven't suggested leaving the relays intact (though I wouldn't have a problem with it, as without the Reapers, they're no more dangerous that pre-sprung mousetraps. Nor have I asked for a disney ending. I've asked for one that doesn't require the main character in a trilogy to suddenly turn into a Reaper worshipping fool (and no, the difference between leader of the Reapers and one of the Reapers is not suffeciently large to justify this).

As for my argument about inevitability.

Space god claims that it is inevitable for the created to destroy their creators, eventually. He provides no evidence for that. The only created we have are the Geth (peaceful until they were attacked, even then didn't pursue the Quarians, only went to war at the instigation of the Reapers), EDI (fighting at your side) and, for a given definition of created, the Krogan (who indeed rebelled and...lost).

I'm willing, for the sake of argument, to believe that space god isn't Harbinger screwing with you, but all the evidence available to Shepard is that space god's arguments don't work. Even more than that, they can't have ever truly worked.

He says: Without the cycle, the synthetics would destroy all life (not just all advanced life, like I do) so there would be nothing left to rise up after we are gone, the way humans did after the prothean cycle. If that had ever happened, the game could not take place, because there would have been nothing to evolve into protheans, nothing to evolve into humans, nothing to evolve into Turians. He claims as an inevitability something that can't have ever happened. He claims it without providing any evidence!

You write that in 10,000 years everyone would be dead, but the Citadel Council had successfully prevented that for 2500 years and space god provides no evidence that they couldn't have gone right on doing so. All the threats in the series (with the exception of the Batarians, who are now essentially extinct, Cerberus, which you just destroyed and various criminal groups that have always existed) came from outside the galaxy, namely the Reapers.

As for offering options. First, from Shepard's perspective, he has no way of knowing those options are real. All three involve taking actions that are superficially suicidal (jumping in a hole, blowing yourself up, electrocuting yourself) wouldn't you be more likely to think that this was Harbinger, appearing as a hologram to try to make you commit suicide before you could figure out how to use the Crucible?

For that matter, even if Biotic Sage is right and the Crucible reprograms the Catalyst, whose to say it, as the leader of the Reapers, isn't leaving out rather critical details?

The Reapers have depended on subterfuge (the citidel), trickery (Rachni, Geth) and division (indoctrination) as much as they have brute strength, we know they're cunning and decietful bastards. Why would you trust their leader? Without question or argument?

Fine. If you would, if your Shepard would, then have him die (or miraculously survive, seriously Bioware?) in the burst of light of your chosen color, but I continue to feel that what happened was a brutal character and storyline derailment, five minutes out from Awesome Station.