31 réponses à ce sujet

[warrior256]

I'm sorry if this has been brought up before, but if this AI-God thing is the citadel, then what was the point of the Reapers leaving one of their own behind to ensure that the citadel allows the reapers through? Couldn't this AI-God have just done that itself whenever it felt that it needed to? For that matter, how could anyone have overlooked a plot hole this big? I noticed it right away! I know that there are bigger problems with the ending, but this has been bugging me since I beat the game! It's like the writers forgot all about the first ME...

[Abirn]

There was no point. The whole series is pointless now because of the ending.

[Leafs43]

That's actually one of the better known plot holes.

No one knows.


I'd be willing to forgive bioware if they scrubbed the endings and gave us better ones in a patch. Like the magic elevator and forward just being a hallucination or something.

[Der Estr Bune]

Perhaps the connection of the Crucible was what triggered the appearance of the God-Child? Before that signal (indicating that the cycle had exceeded its usefulness), God-Child was strictly hands-off?

I'm just speculating, though.

[thesnake777]

Its a giant plot hole. The reaper child invalidates everything Sovereign said and did...

[The Angry One]

Sovereign basically becomes redundant, and so does Harbinger in ME2.

[aimlessgun]

This is one concern that is easily addressed. You can view space god as a neutral observer who does not directly control the reapers any longer. The whole struggle vs the reapers is like a test, and space god won't interfere with the test. 

But the fact that people keep bringing this up points to bad presentation in the ending.

Modifié par aimlessgun, 11 mars 2012 - 04:56 .

[The Angry One]

Der Estr Bune wrote...

Perhaps the connection of the Crucible was what triggered the appearance of the God-Child? Before that signal (indicating that the cycle had exceeded its usefulness), God-Child was strictly hands-off?

I'm just speculating, though.

Some people say that, but it makes no sense. The idiot child is determined to maintain the cycle, and his directives are to preserve organic life by cataloging it as Reapers or whatever the hell his stupid ass plan is.
The point is, he's in a direct position to keep the cycle on schedule and he... doesn't? He needs Sovereign to launch failed invasions and potentially alert the galaxy that something's amiss? 

[Der Estr Bune]

The Angry One wrote...

Some people say that, but it makes no sense. The idiot child is determined to maintain the cycle, and his directives are to preserve organic life by cataloging it as Reapers or whatever the hell his stupid ass plan is.
The point is, he's in a direct position to keep the cycle on schedule and he... doesn't? He needs Sovereign to launch failed invasions and potentially alert the galaxy that something's amiss? 

I don't know about that. If he was going to take a "direct position", he wouldn't have made the Reapers in the first place. Since he did, I assume he wanted a system that could run without him, even if that means the system has to make moves that would be unnecessary with his direct interference.

[Reiella]

My take is that the Catalyst is limited in scope.

It can open the Deep Space relay when it received the signal, and it tell the Reapers to go home.

When presented with the 'new potential' offered by the Crucible, it was unable to act [hence why Shepard got to stagger and choose the color of doom].

[thesnake777]

aimlessgun wrote...

This is one concern that is easily addressed. You can view space god as a neutral observer who does not directly control the reapers any longer. The whole struggle vs the reapers is like a test, and space god won't interfere with the test. 

But the fact that people keep bringing this up points to bad presentation in the ending.

My issue with this is that the Reaper child says that the reapers are his solution..
while sovergin declared that they are all nations within themselves...they both made contradcitoy statments..the Reaper child implies hes in charge of the Reapers.. while Soverign implied they have no masters...

[MrAtomica]

Because the writers were switched up between the first two games and now.

I regard the disparities like I would in a series of novels. Look at Mass Effect: Deception in comparison to the earlier novels; Gillian Grayson is suddenly "over" autism, Kai Leng is suddenly turned on by aliens he vehemently abhors, etc.

[The Angry One]

aimlessgun wrote...

This is one concern that is easily addressed. You can view space god as a neutral observer who does not directly control the reapers any longer. The whole fight is like a test, and space god won't interfere with the test.

But the fact that people keep bringing this up points to bad presentation in the ending.

Yeah the test angle. What test? You can't test something if you give no parameters.
Is the crucible supposed to be the test? "Hey, build this thing you have no reason to build until we're already killing you, have no idea what it does and no clue what it's main component is!".
What does the test prove anyway? That you can build a large device according to instructions? It serves no purpose in that regard!

[The Angry One]

Der Estr Bune wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Some people say that, but it makes no sense. The idiot child is determined to maintain the cycle, and his directives are to preserve organic life by cataloging it as Reapers or whatever the hell his stupid ass plan is.
The point is, he's in a direct position to keep the cycle on schedule and he... doesn't? He needs Sovereign to launch failed invasions and potentially alert the galaxy that something's amiss? 

I don't know about that. If he was going to take a "direct position", he wouldn't have made the Reapers in the first place. Since he did, I assume he wanted a system that could run without him, even if that means the system has to make moves that would be unnecessary with his direct interference.

Er.. what's the idiot child going to do without the Reapers? Yell harshly at the organics?

[Der Estr Bune]

The Angry One wrote...

Er.. what's the idiot child going to do without the Reapers? Yell harshly at the organics?

If he can create a system that allows you to merge all synthetic and organic life in the universe, I feel like he's probably got enough power to do just about whatever he wants.

[thesnake777]

Der Estr Bune wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Er.. what's the idiot child going to do without the Reapers? Yell harshly at the organics?

If he can create a system that allows you to merge all synthetic and organic life in the universe, I feel like he's probably got enough power to do just about whatever he wants.

if that is the case there was no point in the reapers leaving sovergin behind to keep watch over everything..he should have been able to call them back...

[Der Estr Bune]

thesnake777 wrote...

if that is the case there was no point in the reapers leaving sovergin behind to keep watch over everything..he should have been able to call them back...

What I'm positing here is that God-Child made the Reapers as a hands-off system to regulate the Cycle, until such time as the Cycle becomes insufficient (the Crucible/Catalyst Connection, or CCC). That "hands-off" is important, because it means that he is not personally tied to the logic/actions of the Reapers themselves, other than setting them in motion and giving them a purpose (but not directions for how specifically to achieve it).

[Adugan]

They changed the plot direction for ME3 and didnt cover all the bases with explanations. Careless and rushed imo, but it may have not been their fault. I would like to know the whole story with the development before judging.

[Cosmar]

OP. sloppy writing is the reason. They didn't have a game plan and wrote by the seat of their pants as they went along. That is never a good idea.

[Leafs43]

Adugan wrote...

They changed the plot direction for ME3 and didnt cover all the bases with explanations. Careless and rushed imo, but it may have not been their fault. I would like to know the whole story with the development before judging.

They changed the plot direction 5 minutes before the final credits.

That is what is so bad about it.

[Karathossen]

One of the big things that puzzles me is the Catalyst-thing's explanations as Shepard reaches him. He talks about how the Reapers were there to maintain order because synthetics would always try to destroy organic life. (In this cycle, the Geth). The Geth in ME1 attack Eden Prime under orders from Saren and Sovereign. Sure feels like someone is fulfilling their own little "galactic certainty".

On top of that, when Shepard reaches the Catalyst-being, this thing is completely ready to stop the millenia-old harvesting cycle because of a single human reaching him (proving that galactic civilization can work together well enough to construct the Crucible). If this single act changes the Catalyst's mind, why wouldn't an act like the Geth and the Quarians making peace (You know, the synthetics that are supposed to destroy us all making peace with their creators instead of fighting them) prove that this cycle can work together? If the Crucible was a test, wouldn't the Geth-Quarian peace pretty much prove the central reason for the Reaper-genocide-cycle could be fixed?

Right now, looking at ME3 and the entire ME series - There's only one synthetic race in the galaxy that's responsible for untold destruction against organics. The Reapers themselves.

I beat the game around 03:00. At 07:00 - four hours later, I'm still trying to understand.

Modifié par Karathossen, 11 mars 2012 - 05:09 .

[Karait]

I love how Sovereign and then that reaper on Rannoch say that their reapers' motives are beyond Shepard's comprehension and then it turns out it's just about bringing synthetics' order to organics' chaos. Hey, pretty comprehensible to me.

Also, why dont they wipe organics when they are in, like, medieval stages? Much easier to conquer - Sovereign could have easily done it - and the DNA which Reapers apparently preserve pretty much at its peak.

[thesnake777]

Der Estr Bune wrote...

thesnake777 wrote...

if that is the case there was no point in the reapers leaving sovergin behind to keep watch over everything..he should have been able to call them back...

What I'm positing here is that God-Child made the Reapers as a hands-off system to regulate the Cycle, until such time as the Cycle becomes insufficient (the Crucible/Catalyst Connection, or CCC). That "hands-off" is important, because it means that he is not personally tied to the logic/actions of the Reapers themselves, other than setting them in motion and giving them a purpose (but not directions for how specifically to achieve it).

I may have missed this within the two minute conversation I had with the Reaper child.. but even from your own statment the reaper child would still have the power to asses and change the solution to the cycle... Meaning at the very least he still has controll over the reapers..

[komoshi]

It HAD to be some last minute fix. I'm pretty darn sure they have some decent 'cliche' or traditional ending lying in their data drive only to have someone saying this new ending would be more 'philosophical' or something like that.

So if this hot fix DLC that everyone (including myself) is wanting comes out earlier than expected, I'm sure it's because it's not like they haven't thought of a traditional ending.

It just does not make any sense to have the game being incredibly awesome until the last 10 minutes...

Whatever the reason they chose this current one.. Is way beyond my comprehension.

BioWare likes to play god. I suppose! D:

[Der Estr Bune]

thesnake777 wrote...

I may have missed this within the two minute conversation I had with the Reaper child.. but even from your own statment the reaper child would still have the power to asses and change the solution to the cycle... Meaning at the very least he still has controll over the reapers..

None of this is stated in that conversation, so you didn't miss anything. And for the record, I'm totally on your side here: It's really dumb. I'm just trying to rationalize things, partially for my own sake.

And yeah, God-Child can (and does) change the solution once he sees it's not working, but (presumably, in this system) he is not omniscient. Which definitely undermines the authority on which he claims that, "Organics and synthetics can never live in harmony!", but does allow for him to have a system which he leaves running until he comes to learn that it doesn't. He didn't know it would stop working when he developed the Reapers, but he knew it might, hence the failsafe.