222 réponses à ce sujet

[Smiley556]

BP20125810 wrote...

One huge miscalculation. What about the bit with the stargazer at the end? About Shepard being a legend. How does that fit into the indoctrination/dream theory. Maybe the real ending comes before?

I hope to God your right though, and the ending is on the XBL tuesday. Otherwise my xbox is going into the trash.

I do believe that ending hints the story continues 'tell me another story' 'oke, one more story' *insert continueation of the story from the part shepard wakes up here*

[Mitra]

I will not give up until we all don't get our deserved and proper ending.

[Dvondrake]

I like this theory. When you put it the way the OP did, it seems pretty obvious. Though, I may just be saying that out of desperation. If this is true: Touche`, Bioware.

[Eurhetemec]

Kloborgg711 wrote...

So.. you think the ending was indoctrination? Cool, we have a really big thread for that. It's still far from a satisfying ending, since we don't see anything that happens after indoctrination, but the bright star in the sky is that we now at least have the option of getting happy-ending DLC.
But really, you can NOT tell me that this is an "obvious" ending, and it's certainly not explained. There is quite a lot of evidence to support it now... but it took the collective embodiment of the most hardcore fans of the Mass Effect series to put it together.

Not really. The "This is quite likely a hallucination" thing is something pretty much anyone seeing the end relative to the rest of the game could have come up with. "hardcore fans" may have studied the details to come up with supporting evidence, but you don't need to be a "hardcore fan" let alone their "collective embodiment" to come up with this.

On the contrary - I'd think anyone who didn't at least consider the possibility was pretty literal-minded.

[Smiley556]

Eurhetemec wrote...

Kloborgg711 wrote...

So.. you think the ending was indoctrination? Cool, we have a really big thread for that. It's still far from a satisfying ending, since we don't see anything that happens after indoctrination, but the bright star in the sky is that we now at least have the option of getting happy-ending DLC.
But really, you can NOT tell me that this is an "obvious" ending, and it's certainly not explained. There is quite a lot of evidence to support it now... but it took the collective embodiment of the most hardcore fans of the Mass Effect series to put it together.

Not really. The "This is quite likely a hallucination" thing is something pretty much anyone seeing the end relative to the rest of the game could have come up with. "hardcore fans" may have studied the details to come up with supporting evidence, but you don't need to be a "hardcore fan" let alone their "collective embodiment" to come up with this.

On the contrary - I'd think anyone who didn't at least consider the possibility was pretty literal-minded.

The reason I made this post was because it was quite clear to me, I didnt really doubt it. I was really bummed that it ended in a cliffhanger (not bummed cos it was a bad ending or something). I only came to this forum and read all the comotion on the endings After I heard from numerous people about the whole ME ending sucks its retarded. I was genuinely suprised people thought that. So I decided to make this thread to clear things up to people. So no I didnt puzzle it together with the collective embodiement of the most hardcore fans of mass effect.

[Necroscope]

Dreogan wrote...

I call this the "Grasping at straws because the writers couldn't tell a proper story" theory.

If so, then why the rest of the story seems right (or at least much better than in ME2), including the relationships between characters, which are IMO very well written (the dialogue with Garrus in the Citadel almost made my cry)?

Why ONLY the ending makes no sense at all? Was it written by a different person or something?

[Someone With Mass]

Extremely clear, huh?

The tell me this:

How did the squadmates end up on the Normandy when Harbinger blasted them while Shepard was dashing for the Conduit? Oh, right. Because the current endings were such a cut and paste job, it's not even funny.

[Mitra]

I really don't know folks.
I'll say let's wait few more days and if we are right, that will be awesome.
But no matter what, I think Bioware should make an apology to all of us (no matter if we are right or not).

[Smiley556]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Extremely clear, huh?

The tell me this:

How did the squadmates end up on the Normandy when Harbinger blasted them while Shepard was dashing for the Conduit? Oh, right. Because the current endings were such a cut and paste job, it's not even funny.

Prince_Valiant wrote...

@Smiley556

To be honest, I've read not all, but did you explain the crash of the Nomandy? Shall this be part of the hallucination too? That seemed very realistic to me.

 

I suggest both of you read my original post at the start of this thread, it was explained.

Modifié par Smiley556, 11 mars 2012 - 10:19 .

[MRedfield]

This really does sound like the best theory so far, and it's something I was thinking as soon as I got by the blast from the beam and suddenly ended up on the on the 'Citadel' with Anderson, an unlimited ammo gun with time slowing ability for perfect shots, and TIM. Also, in any other part of the game where you are required to use a certain weapon (like inside the Geth), they either give you regenerating ammunition, or they spread thermal clips EVERYWHERE. Shepard has never had unlimited ammo like that, with no need to reload or even having a HUD. Also keep in mind that the only other points in the game where we are forced to move that slowly where time slows down, is inside Shepard's dreams of the little boy.

Speaking of the little boy, the only person who ever really saw him, was Shepard. The soliders when he was bording the shuttle, they never saw him. How would the Reapers know exactly who to use as a phyical specimen for Shepard when they blew the kid up in the beginning? It's because it's Shepard's mind making it up for him, his subconsious is falling back on what he thinks is his redemption, the child he couldn't save is suddenly the one thing that is letting him continue his journey.

It really is odd that the entire series, you are given paragon points for destroying reapers, along with constantly being told to destroy them, and the only two other options you get are both the goals of people you had to stop earlier in the series (TIM for control, scientist for merging of the species).


I don't think EA would like to create their version of Prince of Persia, we all know how that went. Really makes me wonder if there's something hidden in the game that we haven't found out yet.

Modifié par MRedfield, 11 mars 2012 - 10:25 .

[Someone With Mass]

Okay, blaming it on a hallucination when none of it was implied to be such a thing won't work.

Because when you're supposed to bring closure to the majority of the story and setting, you can't just leave everything in the open for fan interpretation.

Modifié par Someone With Mass, 11 mars 2012 - 10:22 .

[Necroscope]

O'righ, explain ONE simple thing - how did Shepard survive the fall? No one will convince me that's possible, especially that he actually died once in the same way.

Modifié par Necroscope, 11 mars 2012 - 10:25 .

[Smiley556]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Okay, blaming it on a hallucination when none of it was implied to be such a thing won't work.

Because when you're supposed to bring closure to the majority of the story and setting, you can't just leave everything in the open for fan interpretation.

They wont be leaving it in the open for fan interpretation. Try answering for yourself why Mike Gamble tweeted "If you know what we were planning I'd hold on to my copy of ME3".
Just wait untill ME3 is released globally and everybody will have had a chance to play before they release the end to this cliffhanger.

[MRedfield]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Okay, blaming it on a hallucination when none of it was implied to be such a thing won't work.

Because when you're supposed to bring closure to the majority of the story and setting, you can't just leave everything in the open for fan interpretation.

Most of the best selling stories in history have a certain amount of open-endedness to them so that they remain highly profitable throughout time. It also allows the creator to adjust it as they like in the future, if need be.

[United_Strafes]

Smiley556 wrote...

 The only thing I am suprised about is how many people in the mass effect player community did not understand the ending. My faith in this community is dwindling as I see them rage.

I dont understand how people dont see that the whole sequence after shepard gets blasted by harbinger is played out in his head. It is all extremely obvious and the game has been working up to it. The way indoctrination is explained over the game (making people think they are willingly helping the reapers, convinced that the reapers serve a greater cause, and uplifting the reapers as some godlike being in the subjects mind).Also the dream sequences, there are multiple dream sequences in the game so as to make it entirely possible that the ending sequence could be some hallucination too.

Now for the events itself, they are extremly clear. Harbinger, the one reaper who has been trying to indoctrinate shepard for so long, blasts shepard. He wakes up, hears whispers (Like every person that was being indoctrinated) and finds a pistol with unlimited ammo (the kind of inaccure detail one would find in a dream). He steps into the beam and gets teleported to the Citadel, the citadel which is horribly inaccurate (not recognisable, keepers cant be shot, dead human bodies litter the place in dramatic fashion which makes no sense except if imagined by shepards dispairing brain). Then theres Anderson, shepards father figure, who has no possiblity to be there (no survivors from the beam, cant have gotten passed shepard somehow). However it would make sense that he was there if it was a concotion of shepards brain, ofcourse shepard would imagine anderson there. They dont recognise the citadel, another thing commonly assosiated with dreams (if your in a dream everything makes sense, untill you start examining your surroundings and realise it totally unlogical and unrecognisable, you usually wake up not soon after). He gets to the console with anderson there, obviously imagined since anderson couldnt have gotten past shepard and according to the conversation he was only a couple seconds ahead yet you dont see him. Another figure of shepards imagination pops up out of nowhere, the illusive man. More dispair enters shepards brain as he imagines the illusive mans power, forcing him to shoot anderson. Through sheer will of force he overcomes his thoughts of the illusive man, either through breaking lose and shooting him, or by making him shoot himself.

Then comes the reaper who talks directly to shepard. You know, that reaper that presents itself as the ghost of the kid haunting shepards dream and as a godlike figure. If you read the indoctrination codex you will see indoctrinated people see reapers as godlike figures. You also clearly (or not so very clearly) hear harbingers voice in the background while the kid speaks and he refers to himself as 'we' everytime he talks about the reapers (ie. he's being pretty blatant about being a reaper). The reaper then comes up with an explenation which would make it (vaguely) seem as if the reapers serve a greater purpose (again, read the codex entry on indoctrination).
Shortly after shepard is presented with 3 choices. There is only one choice that is considered 'good' for it gives the possibility for shepard to survive and, interestingly, this is also the choice portrayed as being the worst choice according to the reaper. "you can control the reapers, just touch the lightning thing, you will die (ie. succumb to us) but everything will be alright. Or you can jump in the beam, you will die, but everything will be alright. Or you can shoot that thing, you will destroy the reapers, but it will destroy all synthetics, even you are part synthetic and you will kill the geth and your friend edi". Everything points out that the reapers Doesnt want you to make that choice, he wants shepard to willingly choose one of the other 2 options (thus completing the indoctrination of shepard).

Shepard keeps his mind cool and picks destroy the reapers, defying what the reapers wants him to do. He then imagines all that he expects to happen, and includes his hopes and wishes. His friends who were with him at the beam somehow got to safety. He imagines them stepping out of the normandy unharmed on  a distant world, giving him some peace of mind. He wakes up back in the rubble on earth, Harbinger has failed.
Now we wait for Bioware to release the end (obviously this hallucination wasnt the end) for which I am gratefull. They made sure nobody gets spoiled cos of differing release dates around the globe and the datamining of the possible endings (the end isnt in the game yet so that it cant be datamined, its brilliant really).

I sincerely hope we can stop raging now.

Ya hallucination/indoctrination ending, you're the brilliant one and we're the dummies for not understanding. This theory  is what would pop into a monkeys head after he finished the crap ending. Here's the reality, that what we were given was the lazy attempt at the shock ending. Either way these were the endings presented, and they nullified all the decisions I made in 3 games, hallucination/indoctrination or not, it's still crap.

[Hyperz]

True or not, the ending was still terrible.

[Turtlicious]

1. The endgame scenario is Indoctrination/Manipulation from the Reapers (Harbinger) trying to force you into choosing to let the Reapers live. Shepard is not awake during the final sceens!

2. Choosing to control the Reapers allows them to live. Reapers win. They will still exist.

3. Choosing to combine organic and synthetic life: Reapers win. They will still exist.

4. Choosing to destroy all synthetic life: Reapers loose. Shepard lives. Reapers die.

5. Choosing to destroy all synthetic life option is more Renegade in appearence. Controlling the Reapers is more Paragon in appearence. The Illusive Man's choice should not be Paragon colors, just as Anderson's choice should not be Renegade.

6. Shepard awakes at the end of destroying Reapers. But Shepard is not awaking from the aftermath. He is awaking from either after he is hit by Harbingers lazer attack on Earth or after the scene with Anderson and the Illusive Man.

7. Stating that all sythetic life will be destroyed will give you pause; destroying the Geth can force you to a different conclusion. This choice exists for the illusion of choice; the other choices are ment to sound better.

8. Shepard does not awake in the other 2 "endings" because you are fully indoctrinated by the choices you made to allow the Reapers to win. "Assuming Control!"

9. Never trust any child construct, be it a ghost or artificial intelligence, or heck even human. They are just creepy.

10. Shepard awakes at the end because he has broken hold of the Reaper's control.

11. Shepard has spent alot of time around Reapers. Soveriegn, various Reaper artifacts, the Human Reaper, 2 Reaper destroyers, the Artifact from "The Arrival." Its foolish to assume there is not some level of
indoctrination.

12. Bioware not only get more $$$ for DLC for the final battle, but big props for INDOCTRINATING A LOT OF ITS OWN PLAYERS! I do not know of another gaming company that has tried to fool all of its consumers, but they look to be the first and reap all of the attention.

13. Look at these screenshots. I believe the 1m1 is a clue, because of how often it shows up, and how human it is, when the ship is supposedly older then the ancients.

14. Definitions:


Catalyst =
1. Chemistry A substance, usually used in small amounts relative to the reactants, that modifies and
increases the rate of a reaction without being consumed in the process.
2. One that precipitates a process or event, especially without being involved in or changed by the consequences


Crucible=
1. A vessel made of a refractory substance such as graphite or porcelain, used for melting and calcining materials
at high temperatures.
2. A severe test, as of patience or belief; a trial. See Synonyms at trial.
3. A place, time, or situation characterized by the confluence of powerful intellectual, social, economic, or political
forces:

15. Shepard is not wearing his armor when he wakes up in the Citadel, implying that this is a dream.


Kitten Tactics:

-The endgame scenario is Indoctrination/Manipulation from the Reapers (Harbinger) trying to force you into choosing to let the Reapers live.
Shepard is not awake during the final scenes.

-Choosing Control - You can not control them, they control you. Shepard says as much to the Illusive Man moments earlier.

-Choosing Synthesis - Allows everyone in the galaxy to be manipulated by Reaper code, like they have done to the Geth multiple times now.

-Choosing Destroy - Breaks the hold the reapers have on Shepard's mind.

-Choosing to destroy all synthetic life option is more Renegade in appearence. Controlling the Reapers is more Paragon in appearence. The Illusive Man's choice should not be Paragon colors, just as Anderson's choice should not be Renegade. The reapers are saying that Destroy is the worst, Control is worse, and Synthesis is the best. They want you to fail.

-Stating that all sythetic life will be destroyed will give you pause; destroying the Geth can force you to a different conclusion. This choice exists for the illusion of choice; the other choices are ment to sound better.

-Shepard wakes up after Destroy, because the Reaper's hold is diminished. Shepard does not awake in the other 2 "endings" because you are fully indoctrinated by the choices you made to allow the Reapers to win. "Assuming Control!"

-The child does not actually exist. He is an attempt to indoctrinate Shepard. Nobody but Shepard ever sees or interacts with the child.

-When Anderson calls for Shepard at the beginning of the game, when Shepard is talking to the child, Shepard turns back and the child is gone. Shepard has been "snapped out of it".

-When Shepard turns towards Anderson after being "snapped out of it", a growl is heard. In the third novel, when Greyson resisted the reapers they would make a growling noise once they realized they didn't have him under complete control.

-During Shepard's final dream with the child, chatter can be heard over the radio about nobody making it to the beam. Shepard is still in London.

-When Shepard catches the child in the final dream, they are both engulfed in flame. Going with the child (the
reapers) means Shepard's destruction.

-Shepard has spent alot of time around Reapers. Soveriegn, various Reaper artifacts, the Human Reaper, 2 Reaper destroyers, the Artifact from "The Arrival." Its foolish to assume there is not some level of indoctrination.

-When Shepard wakes up at the end of Destroy, he/she is waking up in London, after being hit with the laser.

[Smiley556]

Necroscope wrote...

O'righ, explain ONE simple thing - how did Shepard survive the fall? No one will convince me that's possible, especially that he actually died once in the same way.

It would be nice if people read the original post before commenting. But cos I'm feeling generous Ill answer it for you very short: He got knocked out on earth while running to the conduit, and the scene you get where he is surrounded by concrete rubble is where he wakes up on that exact same spot. So please explain to me what 'fall' you are refering to?

[Turtlicious]

United_Strafes wrote...
Ya hallucination/indoctrination ending, you're the brilliant one and we're the dummies for not understanding. This theory  is what would pop into a monkeys head after he finished the crap ending. Here's the reality, that what we were given was the lazy attempt at the shock ending. Either way these were the endings presented, and they nullified all the decisions I made in 3 games, hallucination/indoctrination or not, it's still crap.

Unless a DLC is released of course, making the ending in fact the greatest marketing move ever.

[Necroscope]

Smiley556 wrote...

Necroscope wrote...

O'righ, explain ONE simple thing - how did Shepard survive the fall? No one will convince me that's possible, especially that he actually died once in the same way.

It would be nice if people read the original post before commenting. But cos I'm feeling generous Ill answer it for you very short: He got knocked out on earth while running to the conduit, and the scene you get where he is surrounded by concrete rubble is where he wakes up on that exact same spot. So please explain to me what 'fall' you are refering to?

LOL, but this was my argument to SUPPORT your theory.

It's impossible to survive such a fall, so Shepard couldn't be on the Citadel.

Modifié par Necroscope, 11 mars 2012 - 10:45 .

[JasonTan87]

Necroscope wrote...

Dreogan wrote...

I call this the "Grasping at straws because the writers couldn't tell a proper story" theory.

If so, then why the rest of the story seems right (or at least much better than in ME2), including the relationships between characters, which are IMO very well written (the dialogue with Garrus in the Citadel almost made my cry)?

Why ONLY the ending makes no sense at all? Was it written by a different person or something?

It was probably rushed.

Rushing stories out of the door to beat datelines does that to narrative.

Inconsistant writing can occur, especially when split across a team of writers.

[SaltyWaffles-PD]

GBGriffin wrote...

The more and more I hear about this theory, my hopes get raised higher and higher. If it's true, it'll blow my damn mind.

Again, are there any arguments that would refute this idea? Preferably without breaking down into a flame war?

Yes, SO many.

1) Indoctrination does not work that way. It cannot put you into a gigantic, highly elaborate hallucination world. Indoctrination that convinces people that they're doing the right thing and defeating the Reaper threat when they're actually helping the Reapers takes time--quite a bit of time, and potentially even implants if the subject is resistant. Even then, it's not guaranteed (ask Saren).

2) Indoctrination also has distinct symptoms--irregular headaches, a "ringing" sound being heard all the time, "voices" in one's head (usually in the form of whispers), decrease in mental stability, and more. Shepard exhibits none of this at any point.

3) There is no "metaphorical" battle against indoctrination. It's like resisting psychological torture--you don't "win" in some highly detailed, massive metaphorical hallucination, you "win" in reality.

4) If the Reapers were in a position to induce some crazy (and crazy fast) indoctrination onto Shepard, they were capable of killing him outright. And there's no gain to a risky attempt at indoctrination. It's also most definitely not a "passive" attempt at indoctrination, as it's on a whole different level than any other kind of indoctrination.

5) Super-fast/super-intense indoctrination--which still takes time--results in very fast mental degredation, reducing its victims to mindless/braindead meatbags within a matter of hours (a few days tops). Shepard sure as hell isn't undergoing any kind of mental degredation, seeing as he's capable of talking TIM into suicide. He's also capable of fighting a Marauder and husks in his seriously wounded and dazed state.

6) The "Destroy" option is available in the first place. In fact, it's the only option that's guaranteed to be available to the player, no matter how low their EMS, which makes no sense with regards to this "hallucination" theory.

7) If the player chooses "Destroy", he/she only sees the "survives" cutscene if he/she has a very high EMS. Whether or not Earth gets destroyed also depends on EMS. So...?

8) Shepard "wakes up" in the "survives" cutscene in broad daylight. In other words, HOURS later. So by then, the Reapers have already either won or lost. So...?

9) And more, but it's kind of moot at this point. Fact is, I really want this "hallucination" theory to be the case across the board so that some new ending can be tacked on. That's really what is needed, here.

It's also just plain bad writing and effort. If it was all actually a hallucination, they should have included the other stuff in the game.

[Someone With Mass]

MRedfield wrote...
Most of the best selling stories in history have a certain amount of open-endedness to them so that they remain highly profitable throughout time. It also allows the creator to adjust it as they like in the future, if need be.

Here's the thing, though: They loudly announced that ME3 would bring closure and answer many questions.

These endings didn't answer crap and didn't finish the story for any of the characters on the crew. The only thing they provided a closure for was Cerberus.

Not to mention that these endings feels so out of place for a Mass Effect game, since the crew has always been with Shepard up until the end in the other games and here, they're stranded on some tropical planet with nowhere to go. 

Joker's escape didn't really make sense either. Why would the guy who's been a part of plenty of other battles with the Reapers and their minions suddenly turn tail and run? Because of the shockwave? Then why didn't the shockwave hurt or outright kill the soldiers on the ground or the fleets in Earth's orbit?

[Necroscope]

One more thing - why the kid suggest us that the merge option (turning ppl in husk-like creatures), while we see Shepard alive only if we choose to destroy? Also, merge is the most obvious - I mean the huge beam at the centre.