222 réponses à ce sujet

[Smiley556]

Necroscope wrote...

Smiley556 wrote...

Necroscope wrote...

O'righ, explain ONE simple thing - how did Shepard survive the fall? No one will convince me that's possible, especially that he actually died once in the same way.

It would be nice if people read the original post before commenting. But cos I'm feeling generous Ill answer it for you very short: He got knocked out on earth while running to the conduit, and the scene you get where he is surrounded by concrete rubble is where he wakes up on that exact same spot. So please explain to me what 'fall' you are refering to?

LOL, but this was my argument to SUPPORT your theory.

It's impossible to survive such a fall, so Shepard couldn't be on the Citadel.

Haha! I apologise, I was just answering 2 other people who didnt read the main post, I was interpreting yours the same way. You didnt quote anyone, I assumed the question was directed at me. So yes, you are absolutely right. The last scene where shepard wakes up on earth is the most defining proof, especially since you only get it after the destroy the reapers choice and only if you have enough EMS (ie. the best case scenario).

[SaltyWaffles-PD]

Turtlicious wrote...

United_Strafes wrote...
Ya hallucination/indoctrination ending, you're the brilliant one and we're the dummies for not understanding. This theory  is what would pop into a monkeys head after he finished the crap ending. Here's the reality, that what we were given was the lazy attempt at the shock ending. Either way these were the endings presented, and they nullified all the decisions I made in 3 games, hallucination/indoctrination or not, it's still crap.

Unless a DLC is released of course, making the ending in fact the greatest marketing move ever.

No, because it STILL hurt a hell of a lot of fans, myself included. Inducing minor depression and total disillusionment and dissapointment is a really ****ing terrible marketing and game design strategy, PERIOD. In a situation like this, a lot of fans just distance themselves from their attachment to the ME series or write it off as a total betrayal and dissapointment and move on. So many more people will refuse to buy any ending DLC, as they'd--rightfully--see it as rewarding such an emotional betrayal.

[Smiley556]

Necroscope wrote...

One more thing - why the kid suggest us that the merge option (turning ppl in husk-like creatures), while we see Shepard alive only if we choose to destroy? Also, merge is the most obvious - I mean the huge beam at the centre.

If you remember the scene on Vermire in ME1, this is what Saren preaches. Turning Shepard into a 2nd Saren would obviously be the best case scenario for Harbinger.
Control: TIM
Synthesis: Saren
Destroy: Shepard

[Necroscope]

SaltyWaffles-PD wrote...

No, because it STILL hurt a hell of a lot of fans, myself
included. Inducing minor depression and total disillusionment and
dissapointment is a really ****ing terrible marketing and game design strategy, PERIOD.
In a situation like this, a lot of fans just distance themselves from
their attachment to the ME series or write it off as a total betrayal
and dissapointment and move on. So many more people will refuse to buy
any ending DLC, as they'd--rightfully--see it as rewarding such an emotional betrayal.

Well, it's probably the first time BSN stands united and this forum notice such activity.

So I wouldn't be so sure.

///Edit:
Looke here: http://social.biowar...06/polls/28989/ - almost 14k votes already.

My hometown has 15k citizens.

Modifié par Necroscope, 11 mars 2012 - 11:07 .

[Googleness]

no matter what u choose everyone is dead. when the mass relays explodes they cause super nova and all of the planet systems in their vicinity are destroyed.

[prsquared]

If it is as the OP said, then a simple DLC can't add to the story. You'll need an expansion pack. Well played Bioware, well played.

[Smiley556]

Necroscope wrote...

SaltyWaffles-PD wrote...

No, because it STILL hurt a hell of a lot of fans, myself
included. Inducing minor depression and total disillusionment and
dissapointment is a really ****ing terrible marketing and game design strategy, PERIOD.
In a situation like this, a lot of fans just distance themselves from
their attachment to the ME series or write it off as a total betrayal
and dissapointment and move on. So many more people will refuse to buy
any ending DLC, as they'd--rightfully--see it as rewarding such an emotional betrayal.

Well, it's probably the first time BSN stands united and this forum notice such activity.

So I wouldn't be so sure.

///Edit:
Looke here: http://social.biowar...06/polls/28989/ - almost 14k votes already.

My hometown has 15k citizens.

My prediction: In a few days after the japan release, bioware releases the Epic ending to everybody, your mind is blown away and everybody praises bioware for this bold move to protect people from spoilers. And ofcourse the enormous amount of marketing they get for all this.

[Leonia]

prsquared wrote...

If it is as the OP said, then a simple DLC can't add to the story. You'll need an expansion pack. Well played Bioware, well played.

I was just thinking on this, if it is all true.. there's three different endings, not everyone would have chosen the "correct" one so how do you accomodate for that in the future?

I'm also wary of how far back the hallucination may have started, maybe the stuff on Earth didn't happen and didn't the Cerberus base feel a bit too "easy"? Shepard has a dream on the Normandy before the end-game is triggered, maybe.. oh I don't know, thinking too much now about it all.

But yeah, DLC-wise it would have to work for everybody to be doable.

[Smiley556]

leonia42 wrote...

prsquared wrote...

If it is as the OP said, then a simple DLC can't add to the story. You'll need an expansion pack. Well played Bioware, well played.

I was just thinking on this, if it is all true.. there's three different endings, not everyone would have chosen the "correct" one so how do you accomodate for that in the future?

I'm also wary of how far back the hallucination may have started, maybe the stuff on Earth didn't happen and didn't the Cerberus base feel a bit too "easy"? Shepard has a dream on the Normandy before the end-game is triggered, maybe.. oh I don't know, thinking too much now about it all.

But yeah, DLC-wise it would have to work for everybody to be doable.

There is a very convenient autosave the game makes just before the citadel scene. Everybody will get the chance to go and pick the correct ending from there on.

[Mastodom]

There are so many questions about the ending sequence and the cutscene after the ending. I think that's just the way it was meant to end. I believe most of us are too confused and were expecting better closure than you recieved.

I expected at least one of the final options to result in my character living. I was hoping certain consequences would happen based on renegade and paragon choices made, war assets and the actual final choice; with a video showing how it all played out. I wouldn't of minded if the choice was a trick either like the when you have sex with morinth in me2.

Maybe have the "take control option" not kill you if you have a full renegade bar, or the "destroy the reapers" option has you live if you have a high paragon bar. Have the "synthesis" option if you don't have a high enough bar of either renegade or paragon and you rather go down as a martyr than do the other 2 options.

Hopefully there is an explanation and better ending dlc coming out soon.

[MRedfield]

SaltyWaffles-PD wrote...

GBGriffin wrote...

The more and more I hear about this theory, my hopes get raised higher and higher. If it's true, it'll blow my damn mind.

Again, are there any arguments that would refute this idea? Preferably without breaking down into a flame war?

Yes, SO many.

1) Indoctrination does not work that way. It cannot put you into a gigantic, highly elaborate hallucination world. Indoctrination that convinces people that they're doing the right thing and defeating the Reaper threat when they're actually helping the Reapers takes time--quite a bit of time, and potentially even implants if the subject is resistant. Even then, it's not guaranteed (ask Saren).

No, it cannot actually put you in a world, but if you are indoctrinated while knocked out, you are in your own subconsious, which is no longer your own since they control your mind. This is how he ended up where he was.

SaltyWaffles-PD wrote... 
2) Indoctrination also has distinct symptoms--irregular headaches, a "ringing" sound being heard all the time, "voices" in one's head (usually in the form of whispers), decrease in mental stability, and more. Shepard exhibits none of this at any point.

There's a good chance that this indoctrination only took hold thanks to his proximity to the beam, something that we were told earlier messes with all sorts of stuff.

SaltyWaffles-PD wrote... 
3) There is no "metaphorical" battle against indoctrination. It's like resisting psychological torture--you don't "win" in some highly detailed, massive metaphorical hallucination, you "win" in reality.

Shepard was knocked out, reality in this case is subjective to whatever his mind and the reapers decide to make of it.

SaltyWaffles-PD wrote... 
4) If the Reapers were in a position to induce some crazy (and crazy fast) indoctrination onto Shepard, they were capable of killing him outright. And there's no gain to a risky attempt at indoctrination. It's also most definitely not a "passive" attempt at indoctrination, as it's on a whole different level than any other kind of indoctrination.

The beam was attempting to take full control of Shepard, but due to being who he is and resisting the indoctrination for whatever reason, they created an elaborate construct inside his subconsious to lead him to turn himself over. Think...inception.

SaltyWaffles-PD wrote... 
5) Super-fast/super-intense indoctrination--which still takes time--results in very fast mental degredation, reducing its victims to mindless/braindead meatbags within a matter of hours (a few days tops). Shepard sure as hell isn't undergoing any kind of mental degredation, seeing as he's capable of talking TIM into suicide. He's also capable of fighting a Marauder and husks in his seriously wounded and dazed state.

Already been over this. It's all in a dream, for all we know this whole thing took place over a minute or less in real time, but felt like hours in the dream.

SaltyWaffles-PD wrote... 
6) The "Destroy" option is available in the first place. In fact, it's the only option that's guaranteed to be available to the player, no matter how low their EMS, which makes no sense with regards to this "hallucination" theory.

I believe you have a point here, however I'd like to see two speedruns with minimal EMS through the game, one paragon and one renagade, to see what options are availble. I have a hunch.

SaltyWaffles-PD wrote... 
7) If the player chooses "Destroy", he/she only sees the "survives" cutscene if he/she has a very high EMS. Whether or not Earth gets destroyed also depends on EMS. So...?

Again, what I said above. If they have been done and don't have separate options, then you may have something here.

SaltyWaffles-PD wrote... 
8) Shepard "wakes up" in the "survives" cutscene in broad daylight. In other words, HOURS later. So by then, the Reapers have already either won or lost. So...?

I'll have to watch that again, but it was still pitch black on my TV.

SaltyWaffles-PD wrote... 
9) And more, but it's kind of moot at this point. Fact is, I really want this "hallucination" theory to be the case across the board so that some new ending can be tacked on. That's really what is needed, here.

It's also just plain bad writing and effort. If it was all actually a hallucination, they should have included the other stuff in the game.

I do indeed think this theory holds at least a little weight, it's going to be interesting to see what BioWare says about it in the future.

Modifié par MRedfield, 11 mars 2012 - 11:16 .

[Leonia]

Hm, nice catch. Unless your last autosave is elsewhere, like if you didn't do From Ashes before that point.

[Smiley556]

leonia42 wrote...

Hm, nice catch. Unless your last autosave is elsewhere, like if you didn't do From Ashes before that point.

No its a seperate autosave. Ive tried continueing afterwards. The save is completely seperate from the single self overriding autosave you get throughout the game, its stay there permanently.

[Leonia]

Smiley556 wrote...

leonia42 wrote...

Hm, nice catch. Unless your last autosave is elsewhere, like if you didn't do From Ashes before that point.

No its a seperate autosave. Ive tried continueing afterwards. The save is completely seperate from the single self overriding autosave you get throughout the game, its stay there permanently.

Oh ho, very interesting!

[Smiley556]

leonia42 wrote...

Smiley556 wrote...

leonia42 wrote...

Hm, nice catch. Unless your last autosave is elsewhere, like if you didn't do From Ashes before that point.

No its a seperate autosave. Ive tried continueing afterwards. The save is completely seperate from the single self overriding autosave you get throughout the game, its stay there permanently.

Oh ho, very interesting!

People who rage about the ending commented on how you can just go back to this save and choose the other endings to see all the endings in the game without replaying the game at all. Ie. all endings on one playthrough. I think this save is there so that when the ending of the game is released everybody can indeed convienently go back to this save and pick the destroy option if they didnt before so they can continue the game.

[Mitra]

Smiley556 wrote...

leonia42 wrote...

Hm, nice catch. Unless your last autosave is elsewhere, like if you didn't do From Ashes before that point.

No its a seperate autosave. Ive tried continueing afterwards. The save is completely seperate from the single self overriding autosave you get throughout the game, its stay there permanently.

Oh yes
Agree.

[ApplesauceBandit]

FFFFFFFFFFFSSSSS, all i want is to be with my LI and my bro Garrus

[Mitra]

I think when 20th comes up, we will know all the truth. maybe they'll put it up on 15th, who knows. We'll see.

[MRedfield]

Thanks for the hint on the autosave, I never noticed!

Loading it again, it's interesting that standing up right after having all of your armour magically shot off, all of the reapers are missing. The armour also looks suspiciously like collector armour in the front.

[Singu]

There's a certain level of gameplay left up to the gamers interpretation - like with Inception and Matrix. My take on the "kid" is that it's the Catalyst, it's indoctrination 2.0. After all the Catalyst is the remains of whatever created the reapers and the mass effect relays. His home is evidently on the Citadel, and is partially hinted at throughout all three games. Not a single person sees the "kid", not Anderson - and mysteriously all the occupants of the doomed shuttle leaving earth decides not to help the kid into the shuttle. Maybe the Catalyst chose an emissary to communicate with in all the cycles, what do I know. But it had a bit too strong taste of Battlestar Galactica's "head people".

Then you have the dreams, with the ghostly whispers of dead crew members - and the kid. Exactly what the Catalyst is trying to tell Shepard here is beyond me, and to be honest I felt it a bit trite and hollow with limited effect than to instill a bit of "F.E.A.R. dread" onto the player.

Then we get to the end, and I felt that my belief that the "kid" was a mental avatar that only Shepard could see earlier was strengthened.

I have nothing against the conversation between Shepard and the Catalyst at the very end. It's actually quite well written and reveals enough for the gameplayer that you can conclude that the Catalyst is the ghostly remains of some superior biological or synthetic species that had a crisis of faith and decided to construct the reapers and the Mass Effect Relays as a solution to the inevitable cycle of destruction that organics spawn after creating synthetics that leap past their own limited organic evolution and eventually as a consequence a messy form of technological singularity event(although that per definition is a state of existence that can not be predicted what will happen in) but not quite. Synthesism ending would be closer to a technological singularity, but the video feels very unrewarding in trying to display a hypothetical melt of organic and synthetic life. Bioware sure let themselves be inspired by gloomy people like Ray Kurzweil in their writing - something that annoys me quite a bit since I consider him a bit of a looney character among futurists. I think Ray Kurzweil would have nodded enthusiastically to the ending of ME3, and he would've dived into the pillar of light with a smile on his face.

I'm very doubtful that we will ever get a fix to the game, I like the OP interpretation of what happened at the end, but that's all that it is - and interpretation. Just like the one I just gave.

[Niraven]

Interesting theory, and I love how it can be thoroughly supported. If this is the case... well played, Bioware.

Also, re: the whispers - she's been hearing them. In the dreams that she's been having about the little boy, you can hear Ashley, Thane, and Mordin all whispering to her to "save them."

Re: "it was daylight when Shep woke up" - No it wasn't.

I hadn't considered the child being a hallucination the entire time, but that would be something else that could be explained if you think about it. Mysteriously disappearing when Anderson calls for her, the cryptic "you can't help me" statement (A six year old saying that? Really?), and then the knife twist as the shuttle goes down.

And as that kid is getting into the shuttle, no one helps him in, he struggles to climb in himself. Soldiers, who are trained to help others before themselves, are just standing there chilling as this kid climbs in. Nobody else seems to react to or notice him... except Shepard.

I know it's grasping for straws, but damn, this theory is bloody brilliant. Kudos to those of you who thought of it.

[Pamine]

There's a whole thread about the ending being an hallucination, so this isn't a new concept. But it also doesn't solve anything. If it is a dream, then we didn't get a **** ending, we got no ending at all. That's not any better.

[Turtlicious]

Biotic Sage wrote...

LOL at "It's all very obvious." I loved the ending as is by the way.  The fact that you think that all empirical evidence points to the ending taking place in Shepard's head is just flat out laughable. And it's sad that you went to such great lengths of rationalization, I'm very sorry for you when Bioware outright confirms "This is the ending we wanted. It wasn't a dream. It wasn't a hallucination. It didn't take place in Shepard's head."

Please explain what's logical about this, because if we're wrong, I have yet heard someone give a reason as to why.

I mean I've been insulted, treated like crap, and told not to get my hopes up, but no-one has yet to say WHY it's wrong.

I refuse to believe in space magic.

EDIT: Sorry, Disregard this I'm an idiot.

Modifié par Turtlicious, 11 mars 2012 - 11:46 .

[XinRaine]

I've heard a ton of people try to rationalize this ending, dissect it and throw it under a magnifying glass to make any sort of sense of it.

I've heard that Shepard is killed by Harbinger during the epic run sequence, and the majority of the ending is more or less what you're saying minus the indoctrination.

I've heard the indoctrination theories, in all of their glory. Details different of course, some saying that the events still happened but Shepard was just going loony while they did, so it was highly exaggerated.

And then of course, the 'it was all indoctrination' theory.

In the end, you don't have all of the answers, OP. Nor do I, nor does anybody that has posted in this thread. But games with post-endgame DLC are very rare, and altering an ending is almost unheard of. I can think of a few games offhand, but mostly due to the fact that people have been grasping, hoping that it'd be done in this scenario.

All in all, my end point is that the ending shouldn't require anybody to analyze it. It shouldn't need everybody to have a different take on it, to attempt to rationalize things when it's a clear Deus Ex Machina, and if it was indoctrination.. All a dream. In both the literal sense, and the Stargazer ending.

I hate kids.