Aller au contenu

Photo

People who are criticizing the endings: A couple of things to note


325 réponses à ce sujet

#1
Biotic Sage

Biotic Sage
  • Members
  • 2 842 messages
I've seen some fair criticisms of the endings (most that I disagree with but they are fair), and then I've seen some criticisms that have not been thought out at all.  Here are the three that annoy me every time I see them:

1. "Obviously the Catalyst is wrong in thinking that synthetics will always destroy organics because look at what's happening with the Quarians and the Geth!  They are getting along!"

This does not disprove the Catalyst's assertion.  Just because they happen to be working together at the moment doesn't mean that an organic genocide at the hands of synthetics isn't an inevitable eventuality.  Hell, they could get along for hundreds of years, thousands of years, but if they eventually end up destroying organics then the Catalyst's assertion holds.  Now obviously, the Quarian/Geth situation doesn't prove anything either; it doesn't prove the Catalyst right.  But don't use it as emprical evidence that the synthetic uprising eventuality scenario is false, because that is illogical.  Another thing on this argument that people say: "The Quarians started it!"  It doesn't matter who "starts it."  I'm sure that if the inevitability is true, then it can play out in a number of different ways.  The point is that the ultimate result is the same: organics dead at the hands of synthetics.  Now I personally reject this, which is why I chose the destruction ending, but there is nothing to prove or disprove the assertion other than my own beliefs and intuition.

2. "Nothing mattered!"

You may as well extend this logic to real life.  If everything ends, including life itself, and infinite continuation is necessary for you to feel something "matters," then nothing you do in your real life matters either.  None of the relationships you have, none of the decisions you make, nothing.  Everything mattered in Mass Effect; Shepard touched the lives of thousands of individuals, and some on a very personal level i.e. Love Interest and squad/crew. 

As for our choices in the game resulting in direct consequences, we saw these consequences throughout the game.  Throughout the entire game we saw the consequences of our actions over the past 2 games.  We saw the result of the relationships we've nurtured, we saw the result of saving the council, saving Wrex, or keeping our crew alive in ME2.  Granted, the Collector Base choice from ME2 could have been integrated better, but we saw a great deal of direct consequences.  Now, the end game, that's a huge decision.  All 3 decisions may look the same with a wave of energy, but just think of the ramifications for the future of the galaxy.  I like that Bioware left that part, the part after Shepard's story, up to us.  And yes, the ripples of your decisions are still going on even though you don't get to personally witness them.  The Krogan are either cured of the genophage or doomed to extinction.  The Quarians could be alive to rebuild or dead since the middle of the game.  This is huge, and I scoff at anyone who says "nothing mattered."  Just because you'd like to see more direct evidence of what you do (which is a fair criticism) doesn't mean that "nothing mattered."

3. "Bioware got lazy!"

Whether you agree with the ending or not, how can you call something that was so masterfully crafted lazy?  When I hear people say "Bioware got lazy!" all I am hearing is them saying (in a whiny voice I might add) "I disagree with the direction Bioware took the series!"  That's fine, you can say that.  But don't insult them by saying they "got lazy."  The team poured so much energy into this project and it was of such high quality in so many areas that I'm sure they just want to burst into frustrated tears when they read something like that.  I guarantee you they didn't "get lazy;"  that's how they wanted to end their magnum opus, and I guarantee you if they were going to cut corners anywhere in the game it damn well wouldn't be the final 5 minutes.

My Take on the Endings
Destruction - Implies you reject the Catalyst's premise because organic society is going to rebuild and eventually create synthetics/AI again.  This means that if the Catalyst is correct, you are dooming future generations to extinction.  But that's why I chose it, because I don't think the Catalyst is correct, and I am giving organics a chance to
treat AI with dignity and respect and trusting AI to value all forms of life as well.  My experiences with the Quarians and the Geth shaped my Shepard's thinking here.  That makes it even more sad that the Geth and EDI have to die in this ending.

Control - Implies that you don't know what to think about the Catalyst's premise.  The Reapers will be around
anyway, just in case some Reaping needs to be done, so it's the "safe" option if you aren't sure.  I considered it "unsafe" because I don't want Reapers around anymore, period.

Synthesis - Implies that you accept the Catalyst's premise and that in order to get out of the fatalistic doom of synthetics rising up we need to create a new paradigm for life in the Milky Way Galaxy.  Or conversely that you just believe this is the next natural step in the evolution of life.

I'm sure there's a lot of facets that I've missed too.  There's just so much to think about!

Modifié par Biotic Sage, 14 mars 2012 - 08:06 .


#2
CitizenSnips

CitizenSnips
  • Members
  • 559 messages
It's not an ending. It's a cliffhanger full of plotholes.

#3
Biotic Sage

Biotic Sage
  • Members
  • 2 842 messages

mushoops86anjyl wrote...

It's not an ending. It's a cliffhanger full of plotholes.


Thanks for reading!

#4
CitizenSnips

CitizenSnips
  • Members
  • 559 messages

Biotic Sage wrote...

mushoops86anjyl wrote...

It's not an ending. It's a cliffhanger full of plotholes.


Thanks for reading!


You didn't satisfactorily address this.

#5
The Angry One

The Angry One
  • Members
  • 22 246 messages
Nothing matters because the galaxy is, whatever you do, toasted. That's why nothing matters.
You save nothing. You preserve nothing. Everything and everyone you know is going to die alone in the night because Shepard gave up.

And no. The Geth completely disprove idiot child's ridiculous assertion. The Geth were faced with a choice to exterminate the Quarians or let them leave Rannoch. They chose the latter. They rejected genocide. They are all the proof anyone would ever need to counter idiot child's lies.

#6
Citizen Q

Citizen Q
  • Members
  • 642 messages

mushoops86anjyl wrote...

Biotic Sage wrote...

mushoops86anjyl wrote...

It's not an ending. It's a cliffhanger full of plotholes.


Thanks for reading!


You didn't satisfactorily address this.


Talking to him is like talking to a brick wall, you might as well give it up.

#7
Biotic Sage

Biotic Sage
  • Members
  • 2 842 messages

mushoops86anjyl wrote...

Biotic Sage wrote...

mushoops86anjyl wrote...

It's not an ending. It's a cliffhanger full of plotholes.


Thanks for reading!


You didn't satisfactorily address this.


That's not what this thread is about.  I'd be happy to go into a discussion about the alleged "plotholes" with you in a different thread or over PM.  This thread is about the three ridiculous arguments that I see all over these forums lately.  And I guarantee that even if you did somehow read my entire post in 1-2 minutes that you could not have properly reflected and considered what I was saying.  In other words, you may have heard but you didn't listen.

#8
Citizen Q

Citizen Q
  • Members
  • 642 messages
Or you are just wrong.

#9
CitizenSnips

CitizenSnips
  • Members
  • 559 messages

Citizen Q wrote...

mushoops86anjyl wrote...

Biotic Sage wrote...

mushoops86anjyl wrote...

It's not an ending. It's a cliffhanger full of plotholes.


Thanks for reading!


You didn't satisfactorily address this.


Talking to him is like talking to a brick wall, you might as well give it up.



Ah, thanks for the heads up Mr. Rageface.

#10
Biotic Sage

Biotic Sage
  • Members
  • 2 842 messages

The Angry One wrote...

Nothing matters because the galaxy is, whatever you do, toasted. That's why nothing matters.
You save nothing. You preserve nothing. Everything and everyone you know is going to die alone in the night because Shepard gave up.


That's really what you came away with?  Because the Mass Relays are gone society can't rebuild?  Sure there will be a lot of death and fallout, but it's better than complete extinction at the hands of the Reapers.  I honestly don't even know what to say to you.

#11
CitizenSnips

CitizenSnips
  • Members
  • 559 messages

Biotic Sage wrote...

mushoops86anjyl wrote...

Biotic Sage wrote...

mushoops86anjyl wrote...

It's not an ending. It's a cliffhanger full of plotholes.


Thanks for reading!


You didn't satisfactorily address this.


That's not what this thread is about.  I'd be happy to go into a discussion about the alleged "plotholes" with you in a different thread or over PM.  This thread is about the three ridiculous arguments that I see all over these forums lately.  And I guarantee that even if you did somehow read my entire post in 1-2 minutes that you could not have properly reflected and considered what I was saying.  In other words, you may have heard but you didn't listen.


So you are implying that my statement holds merit. Thanks.

#12
dakka dakka

dakka dakka
  • Members
  • 194 messages
my question is how does any of this matter when the relays, fast travel system, is destroyed. Especially in the light of "Arrival" which had shown that the destruction of a relay = destruction of all life in the sector.

You made a load of choices but in the end it didn't really matter because everyone died.

you cured the Krogan...... GG they were incinerated
saved Earth..... oh wait, they died as well when the Relay went
Geth and EDI were murdered outright if you chose the destroy ending
how about all those nice folks trapped on the Citadel...... they are dead as well 

all the choices and progress you made in the entire series didn't amount to squat.

Modifié par dakka dakka, 11 mars 2012 - 09:17 .


#13
Dreogan

Dreogan
  • Members
  • 1 415 messages
It's an ending. Maybe even a good one. Just not the right ending for Mass Effect's trilogy.

Bioware violated the writer-reader contract it has strengthened throughout three games. While what you've posted are fairly decent and well-thought-out, it doesn't change the fact that Bioware didn't live up to its end of the bargain of player choice. You can attempt to extend Mass Effect 3 to real life, but that doesn't apply-- what's important to fiction is self-consistancy, not being "like real life." Taking away player choice at the end of Mass Effect 3 is not self-consistant. Showing the results of one decision after a trilogy consisting of over 1000 variables is not self-consistant.

Modifié par Dreogan, 11 mars 2012 - 09:20 .


#14
Biotic Sage

Biotic Sage
  • Members
  • 2 842 messages

Citizen Q wrote...

Or you are just wrong.


Well it would be nice to get some open minded people willing to engage in discussion in here rather than the relentless usual suspect ragers such as yourself.  This is a hope of mine but I won't hold my breath.

#15
taylortexas

taylortexas
  • Members
  • 333 messages

Biotic Sage wrote...

I've seen some fair criticisms of the endings (most that I disagree with but they are fair), and then I've seen some criticisms that have not been thought out at all.  Here are the three that annoy me every time I see them:

1. "Obviously the Catalyst is wrong in thinking that synthetics will always destroy organics because look at what's happening with the Quarians and the Geth!  They are getting along!"

This does not disprove the Catalyst's assertion.  Just because they happen to be working together at the moment doesn't mean that an organic genocide at the hands of synthetics isn't an inevitable eventuality.  Hell, they could get along for hundreds of years, thousands of years, but if they eventually end up destroying organics then the Catalyst assertion holds.  No obviously, the Quarian/Geth situation doesn't prove anything either, it doesn't prove the Catalyst right.  But don't use it as emprical evidence that the synthetic uprising eventuality scenario is false, because that is illogical.  Another thing on this argument that people say: "The Quarians started it!"  It doesn't matter who "starts it."  I'm sure that if the inevitability is true, then it can play out in a number of different ways.  The point is that the ultimate result is the same: organics dead at the hands of synthetics.  Now I personally reject this, which is why I chose the destruction ending, but there is nothing to prove or disprove the assertion other than my own beliefs and way of thinking.


Fair enough. In the Catalyst's unfallible logic, it is very well possible that the geth will eventually be on the other end of a war with organics (for one reason or another) or that a new eventual brand of synthetic live will not be as forgiving. Perhaps the hologram-like boy of Shepard's nightmares truly is all-knowing, and despite things contradicting it's claims at that very moment in time, it doesn't mean that will be true in another 50,000 years. I don't know that I completely agree... the fact that a supposed god could ever be wrong at any point time; to me, says that it is not really a god. There's also the complete loophole in the logic of crafting a race of synthetic genocide machines which will destroy all organic life to prevent them from being wiped out by their own synthetic creations. A man is going to go buy a gun so that he can kill himself. You want to save him, so instead you buy a gun first and kill him. Different means to an end: he dies, and in this scenario all organic life is wiped out. Despite all that, the main factor in not enjoying the endings (for me) was that of all the damn choices, they ultimately lead to the same thing. The universe is set back hundreds of years, the Normandy crashes... somewhere, and Shepard's fate is unknown for the most part. Okay, that's cool, but give me something else to work for next time.

#16
Biotic Sage

Biotic Sage
  • Members
  • 2 842 messages

mushoops86anjyl wrote...

So you are implying that my statement holds merit. Thanks.


It would depend on which "plotholes" you are referring to.  I'm implying that it could possibly hold merit, yes, unlike the 3 arguments I listed in my OP that objectively hold no merit.

#17
MaleQuariansFTW

MaleQuariansFTW
  • Members
  • 463 messages
Tell me, what was the consequence the Dalitross said would happen if you cured the genophage? And what will the quarians be able to do now that they've returned to their homeworld?

#18
Harbinger of Hope

Harbinger of Hope
  • Members
  • 793 messages
Biotic, please, shut up already. All you do is go from thread to thread telling everyone who hates the ending (you know, the 10,000+ people?) that they should just accept it. If that's your opinion, great, but there is no need to try and start a fight with people. It'd be like being a skinhead going into Harlem. You just shouldn't do it.

#19
Citizen Q

Citizen Q
  • Members
  • 642 messages

Biotic Sage wrote...

Citizen Q wrote...

Or you are just wrong.


Well it would be nice to get some open minded people willing to engage in discussion in here rather than the relentless usual suspect ragers such as yourself.  This is a hope of mine but I won't hold my breath.


I went round and round with you less that 12 hours ago, and you never came off your high horse regarding the endings even though I and nearly a dozen other people presented clear and concise arguments as to why you were wrong.

No rage involved. You simply refuse to admit that you are wrong, or at the very least other peoples opinions on the matter are as valid as yours.

#20
Biotic Sage

Biotic Sage
  • Members
  • 2 842 messages

dakka dakka wrote...

my question is how does any of this matter when the relays, fast travel system, is destroyed. Especially in the light of "Arrival" which had shown that the destruction of a relay = destruction of all life in the sector.

You made a load of choices but in the end it didn't really matter because everyone died.

you cured the Krogan...... GG they were incinerated
saved Earth..... oh wait, they died as well when the Relay went
Geth and EDI were murdered outright if you chose the destroy ending
how about all those nice folks trapped on the Citadel...... they are dead as well 

all the choices and progress you made in the entire series didn't amount to squat.


In my mind I considered destruction by an asteroid to be different than deactivation by the Crucible.  No where in the ending scene does it suggest that the Relays' energy being negated will result in a cataclysmic explosion like in Arrival.  I agree that Shepard should have asked the Catalyst about this just to clarify, that would have been nice.

#21
RE2_Apocalypse

RE2_Apocalypse
  • Members
  • 99 messages
The OP is a prime example how I believe hope still exists among the so called fanbase. I applaude you and support you dude. My thoughts on the endings are located in my link below in my signature.

#22
Biotic Sage

Biotic Sage
  • Members
  • 2 842 messages

Harbinger of Hope wrote...

Biotic, please, shut up already. All you do is go from thread to thread telling everyone who hates the ending (you know, the 10,000+ people?) that they should just accept it. If that's your opinion, great, but there is no need to try and start a fight with people. It'd be like being a skinhead going into Harlem. You just shouldn't do it.


You are free to rage about the endings, I'm free to defend them.  Who wants to fight?  I'm trying to engage in discussion here.  I'm not going to be bullied into not expressing my opinion as well.

Modifié par Biotic Sage, 11 mars 2012 - 09:22 .


#23
Shadow-Novus

Shadow-Novus
  • Members
  • 351 messages

Dreogan wrote...

It's an ending. Maybe even a good one. Just not the right ending for Mass Effect's trilogy.

Bioware violated the writer-reader contract it has strengthened throughout three games. While what you've posted are fairly decent and well-thought-out, it doesn't change the fact that Bioware didn't live up to its end of the bargain of player choice. You can attempt to extend Mass Effect 3 to real life, but that doesn't apply-- what's important to fiction is self-consistancy, not being "like real life." Taking away player choice at the end of Mass Effect 3 is not self-consistant. Showing the results of one decision after a trilogy consisting of over 1000 variables is not self-consistant.


THIS

#24
lasertank

lasertank
  • Members
  • 630 messages
If you really think ME3 plot is flawless, fine. But apparently most players don't share with your opinions. There are plenty of reasons and proofs showing the ME3 story is ill-written, contrived, and illogical, and I will not repeat them here. Please go through those discussion threads.

#25
Biotic Sage

Biotic Sage
  • Members
  • 2 842 messages

lasertank wrote...

If you really think ME3 plot is flawless, fine. But apparently most players don't share with your opinions. There are plenty of reasons and proofs showing the ME3 story is ill-written, contrived, and illogical, and I will not repeat them here. Please go through those discussion threads.


If you read my posts, you would see that I think it's anything but "flawless."  I have yet to encounter a flawless work of fiction.  Even in my OP on this thread I mentioned parts that could have been done better.