325 réponses à ce sujet

[Sashimi_taco]

Some people think that these endings were rushed and that they were designing other endings until the script leak. They chanced them quickly. People cite the lack of detail of the scene, lack of dialogue choice, and many other things.

[GodChildInTheMachine]

maxulic wrote...


So you missed all the examples of synthetics looking for free will through the whole series?

The Quarian/Geth conflict is one of the first things you hear about when you start Mass Effect 1. Later in the game as you talk with Tali Shepard is going to make his first stand about this question with one line being something like: "your people attacked the Geth, they are only trying to preserve their life."

Then you are going to face a rogue AI on the Citadel that was about to blow up in your face when you tried to shut it down. Then you are going to face a rogue VI on our Moon. And don't get me started with the fight against the Reapers.

Then you have ME2 that goes much further about this question with Legion and EDI. Both of them showing signs of free will, of personality... Of soul like the Geth asked their creators? (I did underline "soul" because it is an obvious hint at the Catalyst entity that is beyond the synthetic and organic life forms). And it culminates in ME3 with the resolution of the Geth/Quarian conflict and the love affair between Joker and EDI and all the question that EDI asks about what makes you a person.

And you are here telling me that Mass Effect is not about synthetics and organics... that's something that kept being debatted during the whole series.

Maybe I am poorly wording my posts, but you are totally missing the point of what I'm saying.

Yes, all of those things you mentioned are examples of the transhumanism/synthetics as life forms idea.

But they were all resolved in a satisfactory way prior to the ending of ME3. The Geth never wanted to hurt anyone, like Johnny 5, they just wanted to live. Once the Quarians get past their aversion to the idea everything is happy daisies and hand-holding between them. The rogue AI on the moon was EDI. She evolved into something accepted by the crew of the Normandy as equal and almost human even. She says herself that they only reason she was violent or reactionary against humans at first is because she was disoriented but she grew past it.

You tell me. Did you miss the part where EDI and Legion are your friends, they love and respect you, they have no intention whatsoever of doing anything other than help you achieve your own personal goals?

And then, all of a sudden, I am told in the last five minutes of the series that the direction this thread has been taken throughout the entire series is a lie, and that Legion, EDI and the Geth will eventually devolve from being well rounded characters with personal motivations into just being Skynet-like fleshy haters and start a genocide against all forms of organic life with no logical motivation?

You are right about all of those things you mention above and that is exactly why I think it's ludicrous to believe that you can reconcile them with the ending.
 
"Then you have ME2 that goes much further about this question with Legion and EDI. Both of them showing signs of free will, of personality... Of soul like the Geth asked their creators?"

Exactly. So why should I, as the audience, all of a sudden take some random new character's word, when this person has absolutely no connection to these events, and believe him when he blatantly denies the soul and free will of the synthetic characters by saying that they actually have no free will and their only possible path is to kill organic life for no apparent reason other than that they are synthetic?

That is a huge downgrade from "being equal to organic life with souls, will and well rounded attributes" to being "one dimensional, irrational and motivated not out of free will but out of a singular desire to be the Terminator."

The point that I am trying to make that I am apparently not communicating to you is that the ending is totally disconnected from not only the theme of synthetic life, but the entire rest of the series as a narative.

Moresore, I am pointing out objective reasons why it is poorly written whether or not you take the theme of synthetic life into account. If you want to see those arguments just read what I wrote earlier. But it is not a hard argument to make, seing that the ending makes use of contrived plot devices and poor writing choices which are easy to spot for anyone who is familiar with them.

[Kloborgg711]

Mass Effect was about a human getting his race recognition in the galactic government, and then doing his best to save organic life from apocalyptic robot monsters. They certainly deal with synthetics, but you're lying to yourself if you think that was some consistent underlying theme the whole way. And really, the fact that TIM has some robotic implants is somehow "proof" that the story is about synthetics living amongst organics? Really, if that's not a stretch I don't know what it is.

[rhevakeane]

While I acknowledge the merits of your post, I still feel the endings rendered my ME experience meaningless. Not in the sense that just because it ended, or in the sense that the consequences of my choices were not in evidence, but because Catalyst's terms didn't make sense or satisfactorily address the questions that were built up since the beginning of the series.

We all know the games are coming to an end, that everything ends is not the point. I don't think anyone disputes that we see the consequences of our choices play out in ME3. That everything ends without any true resolution, is what bothers me. I don't need a happily ever after. I need closure. I need to understand what the hell all the sacrifices were for, if not some vague and frankly absurd continuation of life in organic-synthetic form. The premises underlying the ending choices did not make sense; the conversation with the Catalyst did not illuminate any mysteries or even the motivations of the reapers. If Shepard had the option to actually engage the entity in conversation, or if things were made more clear as to what were the consequences of Shepard's choices, or if we even had a damn epilogue, I think I would feel less cheated.

I loved the game. But the endings made me feel like I played for nothing.

[maxulic]

GodChildInTheMachine wrote...

maxulic wrote...


So you missed all the examples of synthetics looking for free will through the whole series?

The Quarian/Geth conflict is one of the first things you hear about when you start Mass Effect 1. Later in the game as you talk with Tali Shepard is going to make his first stand about this question with one line being something like: "your people attacked the Geth, they are only trying to preserve their life."

Then you are going to face a rogue AI on the Citadel that was about to blow up in your face when you tried to shut it down. Then you are going to face a rogue VI on our Moon. And don't get me started with the fight against the Reapers.

Then you have ME2 that goes much further about this question with Legion and EDI. Both of them showing signs of free will, of personality... Of soul like the Geth asked their creators? (I did underline "soul" because it is an obvious hint at the Catalyst entity that is beyond the synthetic and organic life forms). And it culminates in ME3 with the resolution of the Geth/Quarian conflict and the love affair between Joker and EDI and all the question that EDI asks about what makes you a person.

And you are here telling me that Mass Effect is not about synthetics and organics... that's something that kept being debatted during the whole series.

Maybe I am poorly wording my posts, but you are totally missing the point of what I'm saying.

Yes, all of those things you mentioned are examples of the transhumanism/synthetics as life forms idea.

But they were all resolved in a satisfactory way prior to the ending of ME3. The Geth never wanted to hurt anyone, like Johnny 5, they just wanted to live. Once the Quarians get past their aversion to the idea everything is happy daisies and hand-holding between them. The rogue AI on the moon was EDI. She evolved into something accepted by the crew of the Normandy as equal and almost human even. She says herself that they only reason she was violent or reactionary against humans at first is because she was disoriented but she grew past it.

You tell me. Did you miss the part where EDI and Legion are your friends, they love and respect you, they have no intention whatsoever of doing anything other than help you achieve your own personal goals?

And then, all of a sudden, I am told in the last five minutes of the series that the direction this thread has been taken throughout the entire series is a lie, and that Legion, EDI and the Geth will eventually devolve from being well rounded characters with personal motivations into just being Skynet-like fleshy haters and start a genocide against all forms of organic life with no logical motivation?

You are right about all of those things you mention above and that is exactly why I think it's ludicrous to believe that you can reconcile them with the ending.
 
"Then you have ME2 that goes much further about this question with Legion and EDI. Both of them showing signs of free will, of personality... Of soul like the Geth asked their creators?"

Exactly. So why should I, as the audience, all of a sudden take some random new character's word, when this person has absolutely no connection to these events, and believe him when he blatantly denies the soul and free will of the synthetic characters by saying that they actually have no free will and their only possible path is to kill organic life for no apparent reason other than that they are synthetic?

That is a huge downgrade from "being equal to organic life with souls, will and well rounded attributes" to being "one dimensional, irrational and motivated not out of free will but out of a singular desire to be the Terminator."

The point that I am trying to make that I am apparently not communicating to you is that the ending is totally disconnected from not only the theme of synthetic life, but the entire rest of the series as a narative.

Moresore, I am pointing out objective reasons why it is poorly written whether or not you take the theme of synthetic life into account. If you want to see those arguments just read what I wrote earlier. But it is not a hard argument to make, seing that the ending makes use of contrived plot devices and poor writing choices which are easy to spot for anyone who is familiar with them.

Replying to the colored part since I guess the issue basically comes down to this.

Why? Because EDI and Legion are unique. Because EDI had come a long way to show signs of humanity it doesn't mean that every single AI is going to follow the same path. Because Legion went through that route too, it doesn't mean that the whole Geth specie is going to follow, on the contrary they still share that hive mind (well that's how I felt) and it still proves that Legion was special, he has his own personality, something that the other Geth don't have.

And as Javik proved when talking about a same conflict that happened during his cycle and as the Catalyst reminded you: the created always rebel against their creators (the idea itself being at the core of a huge part of the Fantastic / Sci-Fi genres). There is always a moment when you are going to rebel against your parents, there is always a moment when you are going to question your faith in God if you are a believer, etc. there is always a moment when it does happen.

That "new random character" is something beyond our comprehension, something that lived for millions of years and saw these conflicts raise so many times that well... maybe he is right? Maybe it is true, the created always rebel against their creators.

Modifié par maxulic, 12 mars 2012 - 05:21 .

[maxulic]

Kloborgg711 wrote...

Mass Effect was about a human getting his race recognition in the galactic government, and then doing his best to save organic life from apocalyptic robot monsters. They certainly deal with synthetics, but you're lying to yourself if you think that was some consistent underlying theme the whole way. And really, the fact that TIM has some robotic implants is somehow "proof" that the story is about synthetics living amongst organics? Really, if that's not a stretch I don't know what it is.

I am sorry you missed the point of the whole series.

No wonder that people are disappointed in the endings since they expect the end to deal with a different matter.

[Drogonion]

Biotic Sage wrote...

2. "Nothing mattered!"

You may as well extend this logic to real life.  If everything ends, including life itself, and infinite continuation is necessary for you to feel something "matters," then nothing you do in your real life matters either.  None of the relationships you have, none of the decisions you make, nothing.  Everything mattered in Mass Effect; Shepard touched the lives of thousands of individuals, and some on a very personal level i.e. Love Interest and squad/crew. 

As for our choices in the game resulting in direct consequences, we saw these consequences throughout the game.  Throughout the entire game we saw the consequences of our actions over the past 2 games.  We saw the result of the relationships we've nurtured, we saw the result of saving the council, saving Wrex, or keeping our crew alive in ME2.  Granted, the Collector Base choice from ME2 could have been integrated better, but we saw a great deal of direct consequences.  Now, the end game, that's a huge decision.  All 3 decisions may look the same with a wave of energy, but just think of the ramifications for the future of the galaxy.  I like that Bioware left that part, the part after Shepard's story, up to us.  And yes, the ripples of your decisions are still going on even though you don't get to personally witness them.  The Krogan are either cured of the genophage or doomed to extinction.  The Quarians could be alive to rebuild or dead since the middle of the game.  This is huge, and I scoff at anyone who says "nothing mattered."  Just because you'd like to see more direct evidence of what you do (which is a fair criticism) doesn't mean that "nothing mattered."

Umm no.  

The contract the ME writers created with the player/reader was that if Shepard exercised sufficient effort and will, he could overcome the impossible and save the galaxy.  This contract had been established repeatedly over 100 hours of gameplay.  

Instead, however, we discover In the final 10 minutes that this is a lie.  No matter what Shepard had previously done, the outcome was determined for him: he must destroy the relays, thereby effectively destroying the galaxy as he knows it.  He is not allowed to challenge this result (to facepalm the god-child-super-reaper) as he has been allowed for the last 100 hours; he is forced to submit to it.

In short, we discover that our beloved hero was a dupe.  

You first  argument is that Shepard's choices mattered in the small things, like toward his LI etc.  This is like arguing that someone is a fool for thinking life has no meaning because the dog wags its tail when I pet it.

Your second argument is that destruction of the relays is actually not so bad, so our quixotic, duped Shepard's silly effort did make a positive difference.  And here I agree.  Any reaperless future is a better outcome than otherwise, even if only a monkey is there to enjoy it.  But this is small consolation for the heroic efforts of our beloved Shepard.  

[Garrand]

There isn't anything wrong with the ending if you are looking at the ending in a self-contained vacuum, outside of the rest of the game(s). The ending itself is one that would work for many other stories, and it was told in a way that didn't think its audience were imbeciles that needed to be spoon-fed everything (come on, what do you THINK happens to those stranded in our solar system).

The problem is, it's not a very good ending for THIS story. It's not even a mediocre one - it's complete trash and a giant detour from what the entire series has been about. Twist endings can be great, they can have huge impact, they can leave your audience in awe... but this isn't even a twist ending, this is an ending that had many, many fans staring at their screen wondering what the hell they just watched. This ending doesn't belong in this story.

The Deus Ex HR style ending-tron 2,000 works for Deus Ex, as do the choices presented - they fit inside that world very well, and they make sense FOR THAT WORLD. You can't shoehorn similar choices into a different story and expect it to mesh well at all. The current endings make as much sense as if some glowing orb came down from the heavens, turned into Stone Cold Steve Austin dressed in a tux singing a 50's sinatra-esque version of the latest Tool song, while Richard Simmons runs up behind you and hits you over the head with a giant banana. That's why people are upset, not because it's a bad (emotionally) ending, but because it's one that makes zero sense considering what the rest of the series has been.

[Monkie13]

I just finished my ME3 with synthesis ending.

I have to say it didn't do any justice for the series by ending it in a weirdest/unexpected way.
Let me put this in a more easier/funnier way.

Imagine you watched LOTR Fellowship of the Ring and the Two Tower and is watching the ending of Return of the King as follows.

Frodo tossed the ring into the lava and caused the Middle Earth to collapse and create whole knew universe. You never get to find out what happened to any of the surviving fellowship members and you don't get to know what happened to Middle Earth in general. But there is an old hobbit telling his grandchild about the story so you know world is at peace. THE END

That's how i felt and thought whatever i did till the ending were irrelevant. Now I'm wondering what the hell happened to my teammates i brought to the final mission, Garrus and Tali. Damn it Garrus we are storming that bar like we talked about before. And, sorry tali looks like you will never get to see how your world will develop after creating co-existent life style with geth.

[GodChildInTheMachine]

maxulic wrote...


Replying to the colored part since I guess the issue basically comes down to this.

Why? Because EDI and Legion are unique. Because EDI had come a long way to show signs of humanity it doesn't mean that every single AI is going to follow the same path. Because Legion went through that route too, it doesn't mean that the whole Geth specie is going to follow, on the contrary they still share that hive mind (well that's how I felt) and it still proves that Legion was special, he has his own personality, something that the other Geth don't have.

And as Javik proved when talking about a same conflict that happened during his cycle and as the Catalyst reminded you: the created always rebel against their creators (the idea itself being at the core of a huge part of the Fantastic / Sci-Fi genres). There is always a moment when you are going to rebel against your parents, there is always a moment when you are going to question your faith in God if you are a believer, etc. there is always a moment when it does happen.

That "new random character" is something beyond our comprehension, something that lived for millions of years and saw these conflicts raise so many times that well... maybe he is right? Maybe it is true, the created always rebel against their creators.

I'm not going to debate with you any more, mostly because you don't like to address my main points and you're cherry picking your arguments. But I just want you to know that while this explanation may work for you, and maybe it's correct and you're right after all, it is still all very contrived and a horrible horrible example of writing.

"Here is a god thing that is wise beyond your comprehension, so don't question the logic of what he is saying or concern yourself with the internal consistency of the narrative cause he's the magical space wizard god kid thingy "

Just doesn't cut it for me as good writing. Hey, maybe it does for you and that's your perogative. But I can't accept it for what it isn't to me, and what it isn't is quality.

But hey you're probably right about what they had in mind when they wrote it.

[Thomas Abram]

There are some well written and interesting posts in this thread. Keep it on topic and stop with the jabs.

Warning.

[HKR148]

GodChildInTheMachine wrote...

maxulic wrote...


Replying to the colored part since I guess the issue basically comes down to this.

Why? Because EDI and Legion are unique. Because EDI had come a long way to show signs of humanity it doesn't mean that every single AI is going to follow the same path. Because Legion went through that route too, it doesn't mean that the whole Geth specie is going to follow, on the contrary they still share that hive mind (well that's how I felt) and it still proves that Legion was special, he has his own personality, something that the other Geth don't have.

And as Javik proved when talking about a same conflict that happened during his cycle and as the Catalyst reminded you: the created always rebel against their creators (the idea itself being at the core of a huge part of the Fantastic / Sci-Fi genres). There is always a moment when you are going to rebel against your parents, there is always a moment when you are going to question your faith in God if you are a believer, etc. there is always a moment when it does happen.

That "new random character" is something beyond our comprehension, something that lived for millions of years and saw these conflicts raise so many times that well... maybe he is right? Maybe it is true, the created always rebel against their creators.

I'm not going to debate with you any more, mostly because you don't like to address my main points and you're cherry picking your arguments. But I just want you to know that while this explanation may work for you, and maybe it's correct and you're right after all, it is still all very contrived and a horrible horrible example of writing.

"Here is a god thing that is wise beyond your comprehension, so don't question the logic of what he is saying or concern yourself with the internal consistency of the narrative cause he's the magical space wizard god kid thingy "

Just doesn't cut it for me as good writing. Hey, maybe it does for you and that's your perogative. But I can't accept it for what it isn't to me, and what it isn't is quality.

But hey you're probably right about what they had in mind when they wrote it.

Yeap... this isn't Bible. I cannot stand logical problems that are present in the storyline.

[Hanabii]

I honestly never thought they got lazy. I just think that the ending was either A: Poorly done. or B: Unfinished.

I have my own massive theory behind the Catalyst and the events that happened. They are as follows.

I am of the Hallucination theory you may have seen gabbed on about in other threads.

The whole game Commander Shepard was getting more and more stressed, as time went on she became less and less 'human'. In a way.

When you first get onto the Citadel it feels like a dream. You're crawling through a hallway of your own dead. Mysteriously faced with the Illusive man with no hint at how he got there. When he commands you, you put a bullet in Anderson and are using all your might to resist.

The bodies are like the phantoms in her dreams that she'd been having. They didn't seem real. Her mental state is weakened by blood loss, consistent exposure to indoctrination. They might not have even been real.

Let's use other examples of other people who'd felt it.

Saren said Indoctrination was subtle and crafty. The Illusive Man didn't even know he was indoctrinated unless you Paragon'd the HELL out of him. Rana Thanoptist (Get out of here before I blow up Vermire Girl.) who had a weak mind committed suicide after even her relatively small exposure compared to Shepard. Shialla (Green Girl) was only freed from it by the effects of the Thorien and was Mindlinked to the Feros Collenists who made a suprising effective force. I believe Shialla's mind-link allowed other's minds to stabilize and counter re-indoctrination, that and the exposure to the Thorian's mind.

Shepard in the dream chases the kid, a dream that started as Post Traumatic Stress from watching a kid die, a cross of guilt to bare. But as the game went on Shepard kept being exposed to the Reapers more and more and more, destroying them, getting close. Others even with no reapers around were getting taken over and killing each other.

In the dark dream Shepard is warned, as she runs chasing the phantom she sees herself hugging the child, smiling creepily as they both burn, a forewarning of what lies ahead. That the reapers are riding on an image of her guilt as 'The Catalyst' of her indoctrination.

"Good Endings." -
Finally Shepard stands at the end face to face with her nightmarish guilt. Having made it so far only through the will to beat the reapers. She is offered three choices by the Catalyst.

One is to Control the Reapers, to become them. However as I was hinted, she is indoctrinated herself in the final throws. This destroys the Mass Relays and causes the reapers to withdraw.

Second is the Biomerge of Technology using her as the Palate. Everyone in the universe is made into a Cyborg. Including Synthetics who are Augmented with organic. The Reapers Withdraw.

The Last is to carry on strong, We win or we die! You destroy the reapers once and for all. However the cost will be the death of the Geth (Who would willingly make the sacrifice to save organics if you persuaded them.) and EDI (Who was always ready to die to help Shepard.)

The Catch 22.
I theorize the Catalyst ISN'T what it seems. It the Catalyst of Shepard's Indoctrination. That in each ending Shepard does not die a true death.

Ending 1 and 2, Shepard's mind is overthrown, Shepard is indoctrinated and is now controlled, Shepard thinks (S)he is dead. Now a tool of the reapers who is still alive. The Mass Relays are gone, but the reapers are infinitely patient and truly unknowable.

The Illusive Man's path of control means Shepard didn't stop the reapers and now the universe is stuck without the Mass Relays and the reapers are infinitely patient.

The Biomerge Path, means all life has been given the ideal form for indoctrination of all. Shepard's indoctrinated energy is in all life, organic or not. And the reapers are a part of everyone now. Allowing them to begin a mass indoctrination beyond scale.

The Destruction Path, Shepard destroys the reapers. Overcoming the indoctrination. Waking up amidst the rubble on earth. (Shep is a sturdy SOB to take so much damage.) The Indoctrination attempt failed Shepard's conviction held through to the end and even in an unstable condition Shepard was able to hold to "We fight or we die."

Both other endings Shepard stops fighting and sees Her/Himself die. Stop fighting and die.
However is Shepard dead? Or is Shepard walking indoctrinated while the true ending is under design?

"The Bad Ending" -
Shepard quickly before everyone is ready, before the Crucible is perfected rushes to fight the reapers. The Crucible is incapable of the Technomerge and Outright Indoctrinating Shepard isn't an option.

With some Resistance left (Due to shorter exposure time) Shepard destroys the reapers, the unfinished Crucible destroys the planet, the reapers, everyone on earth and Shepard. Shepard never gave into the Indoctrination and was too strong at the time to ever do so. Too much resistance left.

---
The Joker Vision

A final glimpse at what is going on, Joker crashing down somewhere. Is it a vision to placate Shepard? Is Joker lost and stranded with a need to be picked up?

The Reapers died, but so did the earth.

---

The Possible Future.
"Can you tell me another story about the Shepherd?"

At some point Shepard is required, if (s)he is indoctrinated (Blue/Green) Ending. She awakens to learn the reapers are still out there. That doom is still upon them. And that through the sacrifices of others His/Her indoctrination was broken.

If Shepard destroyed the Reapers, Shepard awakens. Having destroyed the Reapers and fought off the Indoctrination. The Reaper Tech is gone. However Shepard is alive. (Shepard is very largely Cyborg, grey muscles, wires, AKA Lazarus Project Cyborg.) Meaning that the Geth also possibly survived.

The new Mission Either way involves coping with the change to the universe. Tracking down the lost. Picking up the peaces and building a new path.

"I need to find my people.", "I need to know that (Love Interest) is okay." At your side you have your people. "I need to get the Quarian's Home." "Wrex's Family needs him." "The Asari need to return to Thessia."

"We are all together now, our enemy is gone, but we are stranded away from home. We need to rebuild, but we, all the people of this Galaxy, stand together to rebuild. We will do on our own what we always have. We will forge our own path."

Always remember it is a vast universe, there is still Dark Energy out there. There is still many enemies waiting in the universe. What new threats await when the Mass Relays aren't around to guide you?

[Lord Jaric]

Thomas Abram wrote...

There are some well written and interesting posts in this thread. Keep it on topic and stop with the jabs.

Warning.

No offence but if you and the others want to bring some order to this issue you need to address it. Being quite about it is only going to make things worse.

[Gibb_Shepard]

maxulic wrote...

Kloborgg711 wrote...

Mass Effect was about a human getting his race recognition in the galactic government, and then doing his best to save organic life from apocalyptic robot monsters. They certainly deal with synthetics, but you're lying to yourself if you think that was some consistent underlying theme the whole way. And really, the fact that TIM has some robotic implants is somehow "proof" that the story is about synthetics living amongst organics? Really, if that's not a stretch I don't know what it is.

I am sorry you missed the point of the whole series.

No wonder that people are disappointed in the endings since they expect the end to deal with a different matter.

Just out of curiosity, what did you think the main theme of ME was?

And if you say AI vs Organics, you're completely and utterly wrong.

[TheInvicibleCandyBar]

can someone tell me how to get the sig for taking back mass effect, the american version?

Modifié par TheInvicibleCandyBar, 12 mars 2012 - 06:01 .

[GoblinSapper]

 Copypasta I go once again.

-----

Mass Effect has, since it's beginning, been an experiment into the concept of continuitous player agency - that is, that players will have the decision to make large or small changes to the story and it's details as it progresses along it's narrative arc, and that these decisions will be respected over the course of the trilogy. This has been the expectation from day one and thus far has been the most successful of Bioware's forays into continuitous player agency. Dragon Age followed a similar idea thread but did not center on a central character which the player maintains agency over, rather it is a set of different tales and different characters placed in the same World Setting in which player agency has ripple effects on that setting.

One of the problems of course, with any game that focuses on Player Agency, is that the same thing will mean different things to different people. People have expectations based on 'their' story, and the way you avoid stepping on 'their' story is to maintain player agency and give them the free will to choose their outcomes. This creates certain limitations on you as the author - you must maintain contingency plans for every player agency point you provide. Certain narrative and organizational devices can make this much easier, such as a binary 'morality' system (paragon/renegade points) and condition flags (companion loyalty/approval). This allows you to frame the narrative arc that your players will undergo while providing the illusion of complete choice. While this form of Player Agency is by design limited (your arc of control is more akin to 180 degrees than 360 degrees of movement, if you follow) it is an effective way of allowing your players to exercise their agency over the narrative while still establishing a general story arc which you can follow and plan for.

Over the past three games Bioware has done what, in my opinion, can be considered a masterful job of faithfully representing the continuity of player agency, referencing player choices in meaningful and meaningless ways via datapoints. Mass Effect 3 was the penultimate example of this, borrowing choices from the previous two games to almost completly form the narrative arc of the third - that is, your choices have finally become the definition of the setting (wether or not you saved the council, the rachni, etc) influences the characters that appear and how events play out in these games. Mass Effect 3 is exceptionally well polished (barring some frustrating bugs and annoying UI and quest tracking issues) and represents the continuity nerds wet dream - a universe of their own creation, the punultimate choose your own adventure.

However...

In the last 10-15 minutes of the game there was an abrupt genre convention shift (more in line with the metaphysical pulp sci-fi of the 1900's than the Space Opera / Military Drama we had thus far experianced), a fundamental violation of one of the tenants of the Writer-Reader contract. This abrupt genre shift has left fans feeling disoriented, confused, and dissapointed - which swiftly leads to bitterness and anger. Their suspension of disbelief and expectations have not been adequatly serviced, and thus the ending causes the story of Mass Effect - from beginning to end, from 1-3 - to fail. Many are now observing plot holes and inconsistancies - those plot holes were always there, but were forgiven. However a bad ending damns a story, it causes a blowback in the reader where their tension and emotional involvement does not achieve catharsis and they're left to take it out on the author.

And this is why, I, and many thousands of other individuals have been so upset by the ending to Mass Effect 3. Our genre expectations and player agency have been violated, the finale of the story is uninfluenced by the continuity of our decisions and follows an unfamiliar narrative trend. 

[HKR148]

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

maxulic wrote...

Kloborgg711 wrote...

Mass Effect was about a human getting his race recognition in the galactic government, and then doing his best to save organic life from apocalyptic robot monsters. They certainly deal with synthetics, but you're lying to yourself if you think that was some consistent underlying theme the whole way. And really, the fact that TIM has some robotic implants is somehow "proof" that the story is about synthetics living amongst organics? Really, if that's not a stretch I don't know what it is.

I am sorry you missed the point of the whole series.

No wonder that people are disappointed in the endings since they expect the end to deal with a different matter.

Just out of curiosity, what did you think the main theme of ME was?

And if you say AI vs Organics, you're completely and utterly wrong.

In a way (as I've been arguing against maxulic on other post), maxulic is correct. However I cannot agree with his justification on the ending as I've argued in the previous post.

[DieHigh2012]

Biotic Sage wrote...

Citizen Q wrote...

Or you are just wrong.

Well it would be nice to get some open minded people willing to engage in discussion in here rather than the relentless usual suspect ragers such as yourself.  This is a hope of mine but I won't hold my breath.

It seems you want everyone to be open minded, but treat others like they are unworthy or stupid for not agreeing with you.


You were supose to save galactic civilization. Instead you have blow up the relays; effectivly ending galactic civilization. The citadel is toast everyone that fought for you is stuck in your system unable to go home to their familys. Not a win by any streach of the imagination.

[HKR148]

GoblinSapper wrote...

 Copypasta I go once again.

-----

Mass Effect has, since it's beginning, been an experiment into the concept of continuitous player agency - that is, that players will have the decision to make large or small changes to the story and it's details as it progresses along it's narrative arc, and that these decisions will be respected over the course of the trilogy. This has been the expectation from day one and thus far has been the most successful of Bioware's forays into continuitous player agency. Dragon Age followed a similar idea thread but did not center on a central character which the player maintains agency over, rather it is a set of different tales and different characters placed in the same World Setting in which player agency has ripple effects on that setting.

One of the problems of course, with any game that focuses on Player Agency, is that the same thing will mean different things to different people. People have expectations based on 'their' story, and the way you avoid stepping on 'their' story is to maintain player agency and give them the free will to choose their outcomes. This creates certain limitations on you as the author - you must maintain contingency plans for every player agency point you provide. Certain narrative and organizational devices can make this much easier, such as a binary 'morality' system (paragon/renegade points) and condition flags (companion loyalty/approval). This allows you to frame the narrative arc that your players will undergo while providing the illusion of complete choice. While this form of Player Agency is by design limited (your arc of control is more akin to 180 degrees than 360 degrees of movement, if you follow) it is an effective way of allowing your players to exercise their agency over the narrative while still establishing a general story arc which you can follow and plan for.

Over the past three games Bioware has done what, in my opinion, can be considered a masterful job of faithfully representing the continuity of player agency, referencing player choices in meaningful and meaningless ways via datapoints. Mass Effect 3 was the penultimate example of this, borrowing choices from the previous two games to almost completly form the narrative arc of the third - that is, your choices have finally become the definition of the setting (wether or not you saved the council, the rachni, etc) influences the characters that appear and how events play out in these games. Mass Effect 3 is exceptionally well polished (barring some frustrating bugs and annoying UI and quest tracking issues) and represents the continuity nerds wet dream - a universe of their own creation, the punultimate choose your own adventure.

However...

In the last 10-15 minutes of the game there was an abrupt genre convention shift (more in line with the metaphysical pulp sci-fi of the 1900's than the Space Opera / Military Drama we had thus far experianced), a fundamental violation of one of the tenants of the Writer-Reader contract. This abrupt genre shift has left fans feeling disoriented, confused, and dissapointed - which swiftly leads to bitterness and anger. Their suspension of disbelief and expectations have not been adequatly serviced, and thus the ending causes the story of Mass Effect - from beginning to end, from 1-3 - to fail. Many are now observing plot holes and inconsistancies - those plot holes were always there, but were forgiven. However a bad ending damns a story, it causes a blowback in the reader where their tension and emotional involvement does not achieve catharsis and they're left to take it out on the author.

And this is why, I, and many thousands of other individuals have been so upset by the ending to Mass Effect 3. Our genre expectations and player agency have been violated, the finale of the story is uninfluenced by the continuity of our decisions and follows an unfamiliar narrative trend. 

I wish I had the level of grammar as you do, I've written 5 page worth of memorendum and the big fear is the numerous existence of the.. grammar..

[Kloborgg711]

maxulic wrote...

Kloborgg711 wrote...

Mass Effect was about a human getting his race recognition in the galactic government, and then doing his best to save organic life from apocalyptic robot monsters. They certainly deal with synthetics, but you're lying to yourself if you think that was some consistent underlying theme the whole way. And really, the fact that TIM has some robotic implants is somehow "proof" that the story is about synthetics living amongst organics? Really, if that's not a stretch I don't know what it is.

I am sorry you missed the point of the whole series.

No wonder that people are disappointed in the endings since they expect the end to deal with a different matter.

I like that you ignored the second, more important part, just so you could call me out as being an idiot. Really neat.
Your little paragraph about Legion and EDI being unique is absolutely moot. All of Geth were passive, they were NEVER aggressive until the reapers created the heretic Geth.

[J0urn3y]

I found what I believe is the true meaning of the "endings" here:

http://paragadeshep....the-me3-endings

It's the first place where I've seen someone else mention that the child doesn't even really exist. That's what I've been thinking too. It's unfortunate because most gamers aren't going to think about all this and why should they have to? It also means that the fight hasn't ended and there actually is no end at all. I'd almost prefer no end to what we got.

[GPjessica73]

Garrand wrote...
The current endings make as much sense as if some glowing orb came down from the heavens, turned into Stone Cold Steve Austin dressed in a tux singing a 50's sinatra-esque version of the latest Tool song, while Richard Simmons runs up behind you and hits you over the head with a giant banana. That's why people are upset, not because it's a bad (emotionally) ending, but because it's one that makes zero sense considering what the rest of the series has been.

This would be 100x better than the current assortment of three colors of the same ending to choose from

[ssyyllaarr]

GoblinSapper wrote...

 Copypasta I go once again.

-----

Mass Effect has, since it's beginning, been an experiment into the concept of continuitous player agency - that is, that players will have the decision to make large or small changes to the story and it's details as it progresses along it's narrative arc, and that these decisions will be respected over the course of the trilogy. This has been the expectation from day one and thus far has been the most successful of Bioware's forays into continuitous player agency. Dragon Age followed a similar idea thread but did not center on a central character which the player maintains agency over, rather it is a set of different tales and different characters placed in the same World Setting in which player agency has ripple effects on that setting.

One of the problems of course, with any game that focuses on Player Agency, is that the same thing will mean different things to different people. People have expectations based on 'their' story, and the way you avoid stepping on 'their' story is to maintain player agency and give them the free will to choose their outcomes. This creates certain limitations on you as the author - you must maintain contingency plans for every player agency point you provide. Certain narrative and organizational devices can make this much easier, such as a binary 'morality' system (paragon/renegade points) and condition flags (companion loyalty/approval). This allows you to frame the narrative arc that your players will undergo while providing the illusion of complete choice. While this form of Player Agency is by design limited (your arc of control is more akin to 180 degrees than 360 degrees of movement, if you follow) it is an effective way of allowing your players to exercise their agency over the narrative while still establishing a general story arc which you can follow and plan for.

Over the past three games Bioware has done what, in my opinion, can be considered a masterful job of faithfully representing the continuity of player agency, referencing player choices in meaningful and meaningless ways via datapoints. Mass Effect 3 was the penultimate example of this, borrowing choices from the previous two games to almost completly form the narrative arc of the third - that is, your choices have finally become the definition of the setting (wether or not you saved the council, the rachni, etc) influences the characters that appear and how events play out in these games. Mass Effect 3 is exceptionally well polished (barring some frustrating bugs and annoying UI and quest tracking issues) and represents the continuity nerds wet dream - a universe of their own creation, the punultimate choose your own adventure.

However...

In the last 10-15 minutes of the game there was an abrupt genre convention shift (more in line with the metaphysical pulp sci-fi of the 1900's than the Space Opera / Military Drama we had thus far experianced), a fundamental violation of one of the tenants of the Writer-Reader contract. This abrupt genre shift has left fans feeling disoriented, confused, and dissapointed - which swiftly leads to bitterness and anger. Their suspension of disbelief and expectations have not been adequatly serviced, and thus the ending causes the story of Mass Effect - from beginning to end, from 1-3 - to fail. Many are now observing plot holes and inconsistancies - those plot holes were always there, but were forgiven. However a bad ending damns a story, it causes a blowback in the reader where their tension and emotional involvement does not achieve catharsis and they're left to take it out on the author.

And this is why, I, and many thousands of other individuals have been so upset by the ending to Mass Effect 3. Our genre expectations and player agency have been violated, the finale of the story is uninfluenced by the continuity of our decisions and follows an unfamiliar narrative trend. 

This^^^ 

[GoblinSapper]

HKR148 wrote...

snip

I wish I had the level of grammar as you do, I've written 5 page worth of memorendum and the big fear is the numerous existence of the.. grammar..

Honestly my grammar in that post isn't that good nor is my sentence flow. I use 'countinuitous agency' too many times and theres a couple spelling errors.