38 réponses à ce sujet

[JerusPI]

A. The Catalysts reasoning was better then synthetics vs organics. because you could just respond "I united the Quarians and the Geth Next arguement please"  and was something more like "Our galaxy has finite resources so we harvest the races to allow younger races to have the freedom to ascend And each reaper while physically 1 building is actually millionss of mind communicating in one body which is also why indoctrinated hear whispers because they're mentally being tuned to all the minds aboard"

B. The Catalyst was actually hoping to create a new Catalyst so it wouldn't be alone and therefore you could simply volunteer to be the catalyst without exploding the mass relays and the reapers helped rebuild society and gave the suicidal and already indoctrinated a chance to join them as they returned to Dark Space forever.

C. Stuck with the Original Dark Energy become a reaper and save the galaxy for the next cycle or stop the reapers and hope for the best.

D. Explained just why Joker and the normandy left.  {Although i'd buy joke DLC where Joker says "Crap I forgot my wallet on Thessia i'll be right back Commander"}

[NoUserNameHere]

A C and D please.

[LtHyperion]

In actual sense Reapers actually make possible that organics don't die out COMPLETELY."
So the explanation of the Catalyst makes some sense, Im fine with it.

I don't hate the endings actually, I just want to know/see some info what happened after Sheppard destroyed the Reapers. What about the Quarian, Krogan, Turian? It's comepletly **** that you just see the normandy get destroyed and crashed on some planet, I demand more info.

[RxP4IN]

They should have just stuck with Drew Karpyshyn's original premise.

[FoxShadowblade]

I choose 'E' and say I would only accept such dissapointing and depressing endings if I had failed in my fight against the reapers, had not put 100+ hours into that one playthrough, and Shepard had died in Ashley's arms, watching the Crucible, which was just a superweapon that would have destroyed JUST the Reapers, crumble under Reaper attacks.

[CombustiblePanda]

I don't think what people don't like isn't the reasoning behind the Catalyst, but the fact the Catalyst basically came out of nowhere and said "Yeah, I created the Reapers, now make these three decisions." This sudden addition didn't really make any sense, and really the only time a "Master" for the Reapers was ever even hinted at was in about three lines of dialogue.
Though I will admit that it's a bit silly when it brings up that Synthetics vs. Organics wouldn't be able to work together, when I just managed to do exactly that only a few missions ago with the Quarians and the Geth. Then of course there is Joker and EDI, who have also beaten the odds and proven this wrong.
Speaking of Joker, I would love to hear why my pilot decided it would be a good idea to suddenly bail out in the middle of a god damn war.
Don't get me wrong I love this game to death, but all that build up and suspense just for it to fall down a huge plothole is incredibly frustrasting.

Modifié par CombustiblePanda, 11 mars 2012 - 10:33 .

[Arysa]

The Catalyst makes no sense. 1) If the entire idea behind the reapers was that they needed to preserve life before synthetics rose up against them, then they are too late, and that situation was already resolved. Not to mention that the Geth merely defended themselves in the conflict, and didn't even pursue the quarians off of Rannoch when given the chance. 2) If it was also for a chance at "peace", Shepard did that himself/herself, by allying most races + convincing organics to work with synthetics.

Any entity seeking to save the world from itself would have seen that Shepard had already put the world to rights, and at the very least that possibly the reapers had already solved the issue for them by forcing the galaxy to work together. There was no reason to continue with the harvest, and the only answer for that was, "I won't stop it, but you can".

The Crucible was also supposedly not prothean but from something far back. I do not think it was reaper technology, but it is said many races added to it. Why it would need the Catalyst to function, and why it would work with those 3 options makes no sense. At this point suspension of disbelief is blown away because 1) Any race seeking to end the reaper threat would merely end it; not seek to merge life, or control the reapers etc. 2) If the Catalyst itself was responsible for those choices, I cannot imagine why they would be offered. He already controls the Reapers; a paragon or renegade check here to convince him of this was warranted.

To add to that, in every other cycle only one race was that advanced - in ME1 we are told that the protheans helped other races so that more than one was advanced, in hopes that this would stop the harvest.  So instead of simply preserving the most advanced race from succumbing to death at the hands of synthetics, they are now wiping out the entire galaxy - there aren't any races left to evolve.  And, the Synthetic Vs. Organic plot line was a secondary concern in the other games and was frankly solved nicely in Legion's part by deciding whether or not Synthetics had a soul.

Also, by Bioware's own lore, destroying a mass effect relay destroys every other planet in that system. EVERY option ends with this, so no matter what, you have destroyed the galaxy.

The biggest thing is that nothing we did had any bearing on the ending. Depending on your EMS, everyone is offered the same choices, albeit in a different way depending on whether you saved the Collector base or destroyed it. There's also a slight variance for making certain paragon/regenade checks.

Realize that most people are not talking about endings they preferred. Someone else mentioned that this is a war story, so be prepared to assume things will not be storybook endings. I agree with this and look at it the same way.

Without details, the ending consists of choices. They are the same choices for everyone; the difference being if you didn't get a high enough EMS you might not get the choices or the choices may not yield the same result. The bad part about this is 0% of them make sense. It's incredibly deus ex machina, but in a way that is utterly confusing and doesn't belong there. They introduce certain plot elements that do not exist, and ones that completely contradict things we learned in ME2. (I mean completely.) On top of that, in every game, whether you went paragon or renegade Shepard did it their way, so when you get choices and only those choices, and you get no option to paragon/renegade check your way out of it, or to influence it, well...it's REALLY disappointing. That pierces my suspension of disbelief in a big way.

Also, there isn't any closure in anything. Certain questions that we've had since ME1 are not answered, the main focus of the ending seems to shift from our war with the reapers to another war that, while important, was mostly a subplot in the games and was finished up nicely in a previous point in ME3. The reasoning you are given is sorta silly, because in one sentence not only do you find a sort of "why" (And I mean a vague sort of) but in that same sentence it's proven to you why it shouldn't apply to Shepard, civilization and that current reaper cycle.

To top it off, a ending that let you fill in the blanks, or let you imagine where it could go, never happens. It also never completes anything, so you are left in this weird void. You don't get to find out what REALLY happens to you, your crew, civilization and the galaxy in generation.

I understand people can like the ending, and may enjoy it. But anyone telling you they have "very high standards and thus like the ending", or "thought this was intelligently dark" or "it was edgy and awesome" are not answering your question.

The endings are bad not because you might not get what you want, but because it adds more questions than it answers, it introduces plot elements that were never introduced before, expounds on ones as if they were the main plot point, contradicts lore that they themselves introduced, and then leaves you with neither a closed door nor a curtained window that you can imagine what is behind it.

The entire game was fantastic, and when I first read people were saying the endings were bad, I was hopefully optimistic anyways, figuring they were being dramatic. I love Bioware; I've played many games of theirs over and over again. ME1 and 2 got at least 5 play throughs each, maybe more. I expected to play an insanity NG+ after finishing the game but once I hit the endings it literally crushed me, and I have no desire to do another play through. And that is simply sad, because the game was inspirational, emotional, and creative on so many different levels that the endings really felt as if they were simply tired of ME3. And let me be clear; what I wanted from the ending I got. The endings are probably what you could relatively imagine. Not exactly, but as far as their overall tone. The part that was terrible is how it was presented, written and executed. I wish there were more options, I wish the ending felt like what I did mattered, I wish the ending reflected my Shepard, or anyone's Shepard for that matter - because it doesn't. It reflects the wants of the writing team, and disregards how attached people were to their characters.

I spent 5 years on my Shepard; I cried with her, laughed with her - felt hope with her, dreamed with her, despaired with her. And in one fell swoop that control, that connection felt completely gone.

Here's to hoping the give us a DLC to fix it.

Modifié par Arysa, 11 mars 2012 - 10:49 .

[MaleQuariansFTW]

Jackumzz wrote...

The Catalyst's explanation makes perfect sense. The people saying otherwise are either unintelligent or are looking for something else to b***h about.

"in order to prevent synthetic life from destroying organic life I'm gonna create synthetic life to destroy organic life."

Yup. Perfect sense.

Modifié par MaleQuariansFTW, 11 mars 2012 - 10:51 .

[Arysa]

Jackumzz wrote...

Arysa wrote...

The Catalyst makes no sense. 1) If the entire idea behind the reapers was that they needed to preserve life before synthetics rose up against them, then they are too late, and that situation was already resolved.

No. It's to prevent synthetics from wiping out organics completely, which the reapers didn't fail to do, hence organics still existing. It's to prevent synthetics from getting to a point where organics cannot fight back and/or comprehend them (technological singularity), in turn leading to the extinction of organic life.

It cannot be made more clear or simple than that.

There's sense in it visible to anyone with basic comprehensive ability. 

The idea is not in comprehension, but in how it applies to the game at large.  Shepard already completely called false to that reasoning; if it was to stop synthetics from rising up, that time had come and gone - the geth had already had two wars with the quarians, and peace was brought from it.

It makes the entire basis of the reaper invasion at large null and void.  Even perhaps saying that it was already in progress, and thus could not be stopped is thrown out the window - the Catalyst simply states you can do it and gives you 3 silly choices.

If you cannot understand that, then yes I suppose you would be satisfied by someone completely doing a 180 on their own game.

[OverwatchGMX]

Arysa; regarding your epically long post... Hit it on the head, I felt the same after completing it last night.

The Quarian/Geth thing really gives you the right to give a one finger salute to "Glowy reaper boy". After 5 years and multiple playthroughs of 1 & 2, I got to the Citadel at the end and thought "Wow! This has been an epic game so far, yeah.. a few things on earth narked me but this is it!" And then..

"Please press the blue, green or red button to end the game..."
...Eh?

Modifié par OverwatchGMX, 11 mars 2012 - 10:58 .

[Zeppex]

So in a distant future, wouldn't their plan simply unravel. After so many cycles the galaxy would no longer produce life, planets couldn't sustain it etc...

[CombustiblePanda]

OverwatchGMX wrote...
"Please press the blue, green or red button to end the game..."
...Eh?

I just realized that this is exactly like Dues Ex: Human Revolution's endings were like this as well.

Modifié par CombustiblePanda, 11 mars 2012 - 11:05 .

[Arysa]

OverwatchGMX wrote...

Arysa; regarding your epically long post... Hit it on the head, I felt the same after completing it last night.

The Quarian/Geth thing really gives you the right to give a one finger salute to "Glowy reaper boy". After 5 years and multiple playthroughs of 1 & 2, I got to the Citadel at the end and thought "Wow! This has been an epic game so far, yeah.. a few things on earth narked me but this is it!" And then..

"Please press the blue, green or red button to end the game..."
...Eh?

I put a lot of thought into it because i was massively depressed.  The thing was?  I wasn't sad because Shepard died, and my crew was unknown, etc.  My plan all along had been to sacrifice her, because it felt poignant - after all the nailbiting scenarios, the naysayers, the people who didn't believe me, those who tried to stop me, those who hated me - I still sacrificed myself to prevent all life from ending.  That still happened for me.  (I synthesized.)  The people I loved lived on.

But I felt dirty in the ending.  Shepard would never just arbitrarily accept those 3 choices; especially since the Catalyst appears to be an intelligent being - any other time a paragon/renegade check would have been made to convince him of this.  Hell, you convince TIM/Saren to throw off the indoctrination in much the same way.  Surely you could not sow doubt into someone with such a flimsy plan?

Would I have liked one of the endings to be happier?  Sure, but mostly because I spent two games making smart decisions, carrying about my crew, all races in general to ensure their survival.  I chose paths that weren't always easy but they were smart.  I was a good Commander; I put myself out there to bring everyone home.  And at the end, when it mattered, I didn't get to make a smart choice.  I got to pick a crayon from a box.

That's just upsetting.

The only thing I can think of is with ME3 being so anticipated maybe there is DLC/or an actual expansion out there to wrap it up.  But that might be wishful thinking.

And yes it is exactly Deus Ex's endings.  Except when I picked Helios it was a decision I felt good about.  I didn't feel good about anything.  I can control the reapers (which is something the illusive man wanted to do, so now I am just a dictator forcing others to do things; I never even considered this option.) or I synthesize everyone against their will (Which I did choose, because it was the best option I can think of; create one technical race so no one can really fight, yay?) or I can destroy the reapers, while also destroyed my best friend and an entire race of people.

What's the lesson here?  That genocide is ok as long as it saves organic life?

Modifié par Arysa, 11 mars 2012 - 11:05 .

[Zeppex]

Another thing bugs me is that synthesis apparently creates the pinnacle of life/evolution. So the Reapers were already that in sense, so why not do that from the very beginning and save all the trouble. Hundreds or thousands of cycles for no reason whatsoever...

[Darkov]

I'd only accept it if the Catalyst didn't say he was in control of the Reapers. If the damn kid is in control of the Reapers and admits the current solution isn't working, why the **** can't he just tell them to stop!?!

[Arysa]

Jackumzz wrote...
No, again you're ignoring a key component. It's to stop synthetics from dominating organics completely. Not from "rising up". But from completely taking over, eventually resulting in organic extinction.

You clearly do no understand the whole concept of technological singularity, which the reaper's are in place to prevent. The Geth fighting back =/= synthetics wiping out organics.

I'm going to call troll, because you cannot possibly be this obtuse without trying.  Technological singularity isn't actually discussed; the Catalyst actually says he is there to stop chaos: "To stop the created from rebeling against their creators.  To restore order."

Technological singularity would eventually lead to an event horizon; which is *not* extinction but rather the point at which organics would no longer be able to comprehend the intelligence of synthetics.  An event horizon is generally described as a "point of no return".

It's also ridiculous in that their solution is a melding of organic/synthetic properties to preserve the civilization, which merely turns them into machines that obey the commands of one person.

It's a silly premise, is easily blown apart by their own lore, and is discredited by the actual ending itself.

And Darkov's post illuminates another issue; if his solution is no longer working, why not simply let the races figure it out themselves?  He is a machine forcing his own solution upon us; we are given three choices, HIS choices - that has the benefit of taking us back to ME1.  Sovereign literally says they impose order on the chaos of the evolution of ORGANICS; even assuming that that evolution is in creating synthetics, it points out an entirely different viewpoint.  Sovereign's quotes do not point out to anything bringing order; "Long after you are eradicated and forgotten, we will endure."  Wasn't the point of harvesting to preserve the civilizations?  "We are the end of everything."  But I thought the end of everything was a technological singularity?  "Your civilization develops along the paths we desire."  So why force a civilization to a faster conclusion of this then?  It would make more sense if we were being harvested at the pinnacle of our power because of dark matter.

The ME3 ending was entirely different that what the reapers were most likely created for.  The rub?  The reapers ARE the technological singularity. 

"Rudimentary creatures of blood and flesh, you touch my mind, fumbling in ignorance, incapable of understanding.  There is a realm of existence so far beyond your own you cannot even
imagine it. I am beyond your comprehension. I am Sovereign."

That is the literal definition of a technological singularity in quote form above.  That was mass effect 1.  It has shifted in mass effect 3.

Modifié par Arysa, 11 mars 2012 - 11:31 .

[JasonTan87]

CombustiblePanda wrote...

OverwatchGMX wrote...
"Please press the blue, green or red button to end the game..."
...Eh?

I just realized that this is exactly like Dues Ex: Human Revolution's endings were like this as well.

I have the same sentiment too: the Deus Ex and ME3 endings are quite similar.

The only difference is that Deus Ex reaches some form of resolution. Jansen's monologue in the end outlined why he picked the choice, and what it hoped the outcome of the choice would be.  There is some sort of closure, even though it was an abstract one.

Mass Effect 3 has absolutely no closure.  The writing in its final moments is so sloppy that I don't know if Mac Walters is out to pull a joke and surprise everyone with new ending DLC, or that they were rushed so hard that this was all they could do.  The ending is stellar right up till Anderson's and Shepard's 'best seats in the house', and I'm willing to buy the catalyst twist even though it has so many plot potholes. But the Normandy getting knocked out of FTL and everything after is just plain absurd.

In the end, we have no idea what motivation of why he picked what he did and what he hoped would come out of his decision.  It's as if Shepard suddenly became mute right after he said "Anderson, stay with me".

Modifié par JasonTan87, 11 mars 2012 - 11:28 .

[Arysa]

Jackumzz wrote...
I enjoy how you like to simplify the situation and explanation to suit your own dislike of the endings.

It was stated, iirc, that the reapers are in place to prevent the inevitable outcome of synthetics wiping out organic life. Furthermore, technological singularity is the obvious path to said outcome. Organics not being able to comprehend organics will be exactly what leads to said synthetic dominance. Your Geth example is completely invalid considering the Geth were not incomprehensible or even superior to organics, therefore the reapers not arriving earlier makes sense. The organics clearly had the situation under control and the Geth were not bordering any form of dominance over organics. They were primarily facing a small faction of the current civilised organics. The organic population as a whole would have no problem wiping the Geth out were they to join together and try.

So besides your whole "Why didn't they come in to stop the Geth then?" argument, which is evidently not valid, what other points do you possess?

Then allow me to point out the rest of my post:

And Darkov's post illuminates another issue; if his solution is no longer working, why not simply let the races figure it out themselves?  He is a machine forcing his own solution upon us; we are given three choices, HIS choices - that has the benefit of taking us back to ME1.  Sovereign literally says they impose order on the chaos of
the evolution of ORGANICS; even assuming that that evolution is in creating synthetics, it points out an entirely different viewpoint. 

Sovereign's quotes do not point out to anything bringing order; "Long after you are eradicated and forgotten, we will endure."  

Wasn't the point of harvesting to preserve the civilizations? 

"We are the end of everything."  

But I thought the end of everything was a technological singularity? 

"Your civilization develops along the paths we desire." 

So why force a civilization to a faster conclusion of this then?  It would make more sense if we were being harvested at the pinnacle of our power because of dark matter.

The ME3 ending was entirely different that what the reapers were most likely created for.  The
rub?  The reapers ARE the technological singularity. 

"Rudimentary creatures of blood and flesh, you touch my mind, fumbling in ignorance, incapable of understanding.  There is a realm of existence so far beyond your own you cannot even imagine it. I am beyond your comprehension. I am Sovereign."

That is the literal definition of a technological singularity in quote form above.  That was mass effect 1.  It has shifted in mass effect 3.

They are a self fulfilling prophecy.  They became the technological singularity to prevent a technological singularity.  No sense.

Modifié par Arysa, 11 mars 2012 - 11:38 .

[Arysa]

Jackumzz wrote...
No. The point was to preserve organic life as a whole, not the advanced races they wiped out. And it's also been made quite obvious that the point of preventing organic advancement was in the technological advancement of synthetics as a result. Now you're just trying to argue semantics because your initial point failed. I'm sorry, but it gets no more simple then how I've put it. You're trying to put confusion into a simple concept.

The reapers are evidently not technological singularity considering organics effectively defeated them and were also able to comprehend them. Sovereign talking itself up is not evidence of anything, again considering Shepard defeated them and was ultimately able to comprehend their purpose.

But I'm going to shower now, and I find it redundant to argue with someone who is trying to make something quite straight-forward more complicated than it is.

The reapers are in place to wipe out advanced organic life which have advanced to a point in which they possess the potential to create synthetics which will lead to an assumed inevitable outcome of technological singularity and synthetic dominance over organics. The reapers are a mere safeguard and are not beyond the comprehension of organics, and are therefore not said technological singularity. Their purpose is perfectly explained and contains "sense". You can try to complicate that all you want. That's your prerogative. I am done and have a nice day.

Ah the sign of an argument won; the other person quits.

I just gave you quotes from the actual game to prove that your point is invalid.  You are creating ideas and things that did not technically appear in the game.  Also, you don't quite understand what technological singularity is.  It has nothing to do with extinction, in fact is it usually defined by the inability to determine how a world that has reached a technological singularity would operate.  It is an event horizon, not an extinction event.  It is possible to assume one would lead to the other but it would not necessarily happen.

But as one final point, two quotes from the Catalyst and Tali.  They aren't merely claiming to be preserving organic life, but THAT specific life.

"We helped them ascend, so they could make room for new life, storing the old life in reaper form." - The Catalyst

Mass Effect 1 -

"They're harvesting us!  Letting us advance to the level they need, then wiping us out!" - Tali

The quotes from ME1 point strongly to a different ending, to a LITERAL harvest.  ME3 is not so much a harvest as it is PRESERVING.  Or that is what we are supposed to take from it.

It was sloppily put together.  I'm not even trying to poke holes but I am succeeding quite well.

[realpokerjedi]

RxP4IN wrote...

They should have just stuck with Drew Karpyshyn's original premise.

This.
You know the most talented writer Bioware used to sell games all these years.
(Not Dragon age universe)
Then didn't work on three and retired from the company but not writing.
It's my own damn fault, when I found out he wasn't working on 3, I knew it was going to be a fail in some way.
I just ignored the worry because I loved Mass Effect so much.

Modifié par realpokerjedi, 11 mars 2012 - 11:59 .