20 réponses à ce sujet

[B1RDS_i]

Like it or not, Mass Effect is another story with a bunch of good and evil... hopes, dreams, and questions.  Many stories use symbolism.  Many make us ask who represents the good, the bad. Some stories make us ask where we come from, why we are here, and what we can hope for after life.  Just like real life. Some might even make us question the meaning of war and the whole concept of good vs. evil.  "Can't we all just get along?  I think this game, or story, was a very creative one in which the writers created their own universe with many interpretations of many things, including life, and who's behind the curtain.  I think the purpose of the ending is to make you ask questions and to make you think. Thinking is healthy.  Curiosity is healthy.  

If there were 700+ cycles and every cycle lasted long enough for species to evolve as did the Asari... then the Mass Effect's "existence" has been around for a very, very, long time.  The unknown. In real life nobody knows the reason for existence. Nobody knows where the real beginning truly is.  Is our beginning the only beginning?  When will it end?  "What is the purpose of life?"  This has been asked as long as life itself.  I think this theme is important in the story of Mass Effect. We as humans use symbolism to relate and to explain the unknown.  The one who controls the reapers, which are used to control chaos or essentially stabilize life and existence, is portrayed as the boy who Shepard failed to save whom he watches get destroyed in the very beginning of the game. Symbolism is key to many, many stories...  Novels, movies, games, songs etc.. and can mean many different things to many different people.  I'm not claiming to have all the answers but I do think Mass Effect is no different. I think it's ending is much like real life. In the end, IT's all just an unknown and we have no choice but to accept that. What did Mass Effect's story and the ending mean to you?

[Adamantium93]

The story to me was that there is always hope, even in the darkest of hours, there is always hope.

Another was that nothing is morally absolute, there are always shades of grey and our choices can have unseen consequences.

You can't take every encounter at face value. Sometimes things aren't all that they seem.

And finally, there's the whole "it doesn't matter who you are on the outside". So sue me, I like my Saturday morning morals.

But than the end contradicted those, so I guess I grabbed the wrong end of the stick.

[United_Strafes]

It meant that I was dealing with a crap company that tried to take the easy way out with a poor attempt at a shock ending, inevitably leading to threads such as this one trying to find meaning in pure kick in the face laziness.

[AofTS]

The main problem, I think, that Bioware hasn't explained why war between organics and syntetics has the posibility to exist. In time every AI will question creators about purpose of their existence. In fact AI will be plagued by questions of existentialism. And I have big assumption, that syntetics are unable to find answers as their creators can't do this too. So AI will begin hating us only because we have created them. And we have examples in real life. Every day we are cursing our God, our parents, fathers because we don't see any real purpose of existence in our world of violense and hatred. We have no value or importance and we are mortal. We are unable to find our place and everything we can do is to hate. More of it, WE killed Jesus long ago. And in the place of syntetics we will be their Gods. Geth are the only exception. And instead of teaching us Bioware decided to show only destruction. That is why people so depressed with those endings.

Sorry for bad English. I hope, you understand me.

Modifié par AofTS, 11 mars 2012 - 12:15 .

[jada_pinkett]

Well put. I think you have to be very open minded to even like the ending a little. I mean VERY open minded.

[HKR148]

[Posted this on other thread as well]

What I absolutely am not tolerating is the traumatic betrayal of the central philosophy that Bioware was trying to build up in ME3. Take Paragon path for an example. The definition of 'hope' was not only that the rest of the galaxy will survive, but 'hope' that he/she will be able to get through the ordeal along with people he/she cherishes (love interest, squad members, friends etc.) even though the odd was very slim.

Shepard went through the odds to try breaking the cycle. The Prothean has acknowledged that what he/she has done was something that was never seen in the history of the galaxy filled with repeated genocidal cycle commited by the reapers. Right up to the fleet approaching Earth; the story had reached a climax where Shepard and the rest of the galaxy is about to undo the Reapers and it's all because of the protagonist's existence.

Then the catalyst happened, every philosophical direction the game was taking suddenly became meaningless. Whatever the truth the catalyst believed in is the absolute truth and we must accept that. And suddenly Shepard, and us the players, have to comply with that unacceptable philosophy.

This in my view was an absolute betrayal against the central theme of the ME story-line, and for me this is absolutely unacceptable. If this was a book I wouldn't even bother keeping it in my bookshelf. The way Bioware portrays human value is simply unacceptable by any philosophical standard in my book.

[New input]

There is absolutely nothing useful about the ideals the conclusion is telling you. If ending is what Bioware envisions the humanity as to be, I have to say I'm very concerned for the individuals working in that company.

[B1RDS_i]

AofTS wrote...

The main problem, I think, that Bioware hasn't explained why war between organics and syntetics has the posibility to exist. In time every AI will question creators about purpose of their existence. In fact AI will be plagued by questions of existentialism. And I have big assumption, that syntetics are unable to find answers as their creators can't do this too. So AI will begin hating us only because we have created them. And we have examples in real life. Every day we are cursing our God, our parents, fathers because we don't see any real purpose of existence in our world of violense and hatred. We have no value or importance and we are mortal. We are unable to find our place and everything we can do is to hate. More of it, WE killed Jesus long ago. And in the place of syntetics we will be their Gods. Geth are the only exception. And instead of teaching us Bioware decided to show only destruction. That is why people so depressed with those endings.

Sorry for bad English. I hope, you understand me.

I like the way you think.  Perfect example of how this game is meant to make us think.  High quality thinking brought by a high quality game.  Also, I want to point out that ME forums are going crazy right now because the ending is making them think... and most are just upset because they can't come up with meaning.

I personally think that the end didn't only show us destruction.  My shep went right downt the middle platform and jumped into the beam to end the current cycle. This in turn ended the "Controller of the Reapers" (or Catalyst, or controller of life) cycle which lasted from the beginning.  Shep proved to the Catalyst that there is "always another way" and that it's was wrong.  Shep sacrificed himself and a hell of a lot more for the greater good of existence.  Shep spread his own genetics into a code to synthesize, create, and promote a better future for all of life and existence, not just this one cycle.  

Modifié par B1RDS_i, 11 mars 2012 - 12:51 .

[DS_Abe]

AofTS wrote...

The main problem, I think, that Bioware hasn't explained why war between organics and syntetics has the posibility to exist. In time every AI will question creators about purpose of their existence. In fact AI will be plagued by questions of existentialism. And I have big assumption, that syntetics are unable to find answers as their creators can't do this too. So AI will begin hating us only because we have created them. And we have examples in real life. Every day we are cursing our God, our parents, fathers because we don't see any real purpose of existence in our world of violense and hatred. We have no value or importance and we are mortal. We are unable to find our place and everything we can do is to hate. More of it, WE killed Jesus long ago. And in the place of syntetics we will be their Gods. Geth are the only exception. And instead of teaching us Bioware decided to show only destruction. That is why people so depressed with those endings.

Sorry for bad English. I hope, you understand me.

Please leave your mythology on the doormat when you come to forums, thanks.

Nobody is cursing our only creator - Earth itself. Nobody "created" us. That's the biggest difference between us and synthetics.

[Aulis Vaara]

B1RDS_i wrote...

I think the purpose of the ending is to make you ask questions and to make you think. Thinking is healthy.  Curiosity is healthy.

Except that if you think about the ending for a minute, you'll realise it has nothing whatsoever to do with the games that we have been playing.

[deathscythe517]

See? The fact people have to grasp for some kind of deep meaning to the ending shows how completely and utterly they failed to give a coherent finale. First off Christian allegory/tones are normally the first thing to be invoked when something doesn't make sense because - sad as it may be - in most western developed society it makes sense despite it not really doing so in fact. Second, the ending has been pegged on Christianity, inevitability, to some kind of environmentalism message (I don't even).

Bioware failed to give us the distinct and conclusive endings we were promised and instead most of us are left at best miffed and hoping for more variety and cohesion or at worst having the series utterly destroyed. On the other side of the argument we have people being varying levels of smug but at least their arguments sort of make sense, you're pretty crazy, dude.

[B1RDS_i]

Aulis Vaara  wrote...
Except that if you think about the ending for a minute, you'll realise it has nothing whatsoever to do with the games that we have been playing.

IMO the whole game has been about making sacrifices and doing whats right.  In the end.. you had to make the ultimate sacrifice for the betterment of all life.  The writers went in a pretty crazy direction.. but I do not feel like they strayed too far away from the main theme.  The whole series you want to destroy the Reapers because it's all you know, then you learn there is a lot more. Adaptation. 

Modifié par B1RDS_i, 11 mars 2012 - 01:02 .

[HKR148]

B1RDS_i wrote...

Aulis Vaara  wrote...
Except that if you think about the ending for a minute, you'll realise it has nothing whatsoever to do with the games that we have been playing.

IMO the whole game has been about making sacrifices and doing whats right.  In the end.. you had to make the ultimate sacrifice for the betterment of all life.  The writers went in a pretty crazy direction.. but I do not feel like they strayed too far away from the main theme.  The whole series you want to destroy the Reapers because it's all you know, then you learn there is a lot more. Adaptation. 

Do you honestly believe that the whole point of the series was to destroy the reapers? I disagree with the amount of attention more being given to the other aspect of the storylines. Major reason why so many of us have severe trouble with this ending was because this game was more about how the personal relationships between the player and the rest of the major characters and how it would end.

Modifié par HKR148, 11 mars 2012 - 01:09 .

[B1RDS_i]

HKR148 wrote...

B1RDS_i wrote...

Aulis Vaara  wrote...
Except that if you think about the ending for a minute, you'll realise it has nothing whatsoever to do with the games that we have been playing.

IMO the whole game has been about making sacrifices and doing whats right.  In the end.. you had to make the ultimate sacrifice for the betterment of all life.  The writers went in a pretty crazy direction.. but I do not feel like they strayed too far away from the main theme.  The whole series you want to destroy the Reapers because it's all you know, then you learn there is a lot more. Adaptation. 

Do you honestly believe that the whole point of the series was to destroy the reapers? I disagree with the amount of attention more being given to the other aspect of the storylines. Major reason why so many of us have severe trouble with this ending was because this game was more about how the personal relationships between the player and the rest of the major characters and how it would end.

I don't believe I ever said the whole point of the series was to destroy the Reapers. I don't think that was the whole point of the series at all.  I'm pretty sure I wrote "IMO the whole game has been about making sacrifices and doing whats right.  In the end.. you had to make the ultimate sacrifice for the betterment of all life. " I think Sheps main theme is doing whats right and making sacrifices.  In Sheps perspective it's all about who you make sacrifices for. He talks about it all the time throughout the whole series.  I only mentioned the Reapers because throughout the whole series the Reapers are all you know.  I was just making a statement about how Shepard had to adapt once he learned that the Reapers are just the Catalyst's tools.  I also believe that my Shep sacrificed himself because of his love of life and the ones he cares about.  He ended the Catalyst's cycle and saved earth in the process.

Modifié par B1RDS_i, 11 mars 2012 - 01:57 .

[AofTS]

DS_Abe, if you don't mind, I will make an assumption that God and the Universe are the same thing, and in my view it is incorrect to split these definitions. We exist because of laws of nature, which has shaped humanity, planets, stars and everything in the Universe. In all religions gods are the embodiment of natural powers, so they were the first attempts to understand the World, I analyze them only as progenitors of real true rational science. But I have used Christianity in explaining the conflict between organics and synthetics because humanity still faces the same problems of existence and purpose of life as two and more thousands of years ago and Bible tells us about them almost perfectly, such as the problem of fathers and sons. And there are still more.

About the game: evolution has already solved the problem of creating new intelligence which took form of biological reproduction. That is why I think that the idea if creating AI is incorrect and the attempt to explain game's final decisions in this way is horrible. I also understand that humanity is bound by processing powers of human brain, which is why we have created computers. But I think that we have another way. Geth get their intelligence by merging their consciousness and that will be correct for humans. In the "Avatar" Na'vi has connections to natural computers, and thus they have large quantity of knowledge trough that connection. I assume that if humanity develops the worldwide mental network it will be the greatest achievement in our history. It will give us the opportunity to simultaneously analyze everything happening in the world and to boost our biological, technological and psychological progress. In the end humanity will gain full unity with the Universe, as for now we are blind to it and to ourselves.

I thought that Bioware chose this way, and that's why I was looking forward the game. I was disappointed.

[B1RDS_i]

United_Strafes wrote...

It meant that I was dealing with a crap company that tried to take the easy way out with a poor attempt at a shock ending, inevitably leading to threads such as this one trying to find meaning in pure kick in the face laziness.

Ha, laziness... ya... right.  The series Mass Effect is the biggest undertaking by any gaming company ever.  It's a damn masterpiece.  What happened was that they had so many choices and outcomes that they had to try to come up with an ending that worked for everyone.  I believe they did that.  Sucks you didn't like it.  My ending was quite fitting with my Shep and the reasoning behind my decisions throughout the whole series.

[Aulis Vaara]

B1RDS_i wrote...

I don't believe I ever said the whole point of the series was to destroy the Reapers. I don't think that was the whole point of the series at all.  I'm pretty sure I wrote "IMO the whole game has been about making sacrifices and doing whats right.  In the end.. you had to make the ultimate sacrifice for the betterment of all life. " I think Sheps main theme is doing whats right and making sacrifices.  In Sheps perspective it's all about who you make sacrifices for. He talks about it all the time throughout the whole series.  I only mentioned the Reapers because throughout the whole series the Reapers are all you know.  I was just making a statement about how Shepard had to adapt once he learned that the Reapers are just the Catalyst's tools.  I also believe that my Shep sacrificed himself because of his love of life and the ones he cares about.  He ended the Catalyst's cycle and saved earth in the process.

In my humble opinion, the series was about the choice between working together and standing on your own feet. Sacrifice is a part of war, a painful part, and certainly another theme, but not the primary one. That said, I didn't have the feeling that I was making a sacrifice in the end. In fact, the only option that had an inkling of sacrifice was the destroy the reapers ending, and even then only if you gave a crap about the Geth.

I also found it a slap in the face of the Geth that fought so hard for peace, only to either be wiped out to destroy the Reapers, or assimilated to become the same as every other being (even though that doesn't even seem possible).

Gah! There it goes again... that assimilation ending makes no sense whatsoever. Neither does the control option, neither does the catalyst. It's all just one big plothole. Possibly the biggest plothole I've seen.

Seriously, if you think it's a good ending: How does assimilation work on the Geth? They're software, they can't become biological in nature for that fact alone! Why didn't the catalyst just open the doors to the Reapers? How can such a dumb idiotic being as the catalyst lord over the vast intelligences of the Reapers? How could Shepard ever hope to do that? It all makes no sense...

Modifié par Aulis Vaara, 11 mars 2012 - 06:35 .

[nitefyre410]

Aulis Vaara wrote...

B1RDS_i wrote...

I don't believe I ever said the whole point of the series was to destroy the Reapers. I don't think that was the whole point of the series at all.  I'm pretty sure I wrote "IMO the whole game has been about making sacrifices and doing whats right.  In the end.. you had to make the ultimate sacrifice for the betterment of all life. " I think Sheps main theme is doing whats right and making sacrifices.  In Sheps perspective it's all about who you make sacrifices for. He talks about it all the time throughout the whole series.  I only mentioned the Reapers because throughout the whole series the Reapers are all you know.  I was just making a statement about how Shepard had to adapt once he learned that the Reapers are just the Catalyst's tools.  I also believe that my Shep sacrificed himself because of his love of life and the ones he cares about.  He ended the Catalyst's cycle and saved earth in the process.

In my humble opinion, the series was about the choice between working together and standing on your own feet. Sacrifice is a part of war, a painful part, and certainly another theme, but not the primary one. That said, I didn't have the feeling that I was making a sacrifice in the end. In fact, the only option that had an inkling of sacrifice was the destroy the reapers ending, and even then only if you gave a crap about the Geth.

I also found it a slap in the face of the Geth that fought so hard for peace, only to either be wiped out to destroy the Reapers, or assimilated to become the same as every other being (even though that doesn't even seem possible).

Gah! There it goes again... that assimilation ending makes no sense whatsoever. Neither does the control option, neither does the catalyst. It's all just one big plothole. Possibly the biggest plothole I've seen.

Seriously, if you think it's a good ending: How does assimilation work on the Geth? They're software, they can't become biological in nature for that fact alone! Why didn't the catalyst just open the doors to the Reapers? How can such a dumb idiotic being as the catalyst lord over the vast intelligences of the Reapers? How could Shepard ever hope to do that? It all makes no sense...

 

Thinks 

Oh bloody hell the Geth are software... Synthese CAN'T work on  them... So now on top of in the Control ending the Citiadel not going boom and now in Synsthesis the Geth... 

So we have plotholes, Jumping the Shark,  Diablos Ex Machina,  Reset Button Ending... and they thought this would be good... 

/Facepalm

[Taleroth]

B1RDS_i wrote...

 The whole series you want to destroy the Reapers because it's all you know, then you learn there is a lot more.

Yes, we learn that Joker is a coward. We learn that our companions have personal teleportation technology and are immortal. And lastly, we learn that Shepard is a complete pansy who's unwilling to defy the Reapers' boss or even call him out on being insane.

[B1RDS_i]

Aulis Vaara wrote...

B1RDS_i wrote...

I don't believe I ever said the whole point of the series was to destroy the Reapers. I don't think that was the whole point of the series at all.  I'm pretty sure I wrote "IMO the whole game has been about making sacrifices and doing whats right.  In the end.. you had to make the ultimate sacrifice for the betterment of all life. " I think Sheps main theme is doing whats right and making sacrifices.  In Sheps perspective it's all about who you make sacrifices for. He talks about it all the time throughout the whole series.  I only mentioned the Reapers because throughout the whole series the Reapers are all you know.  I was just making a statement about how Shepard had to adapt once he learned that the Reapers are just the Catalyst's tools.  I also believe that my Shep sacrificed himself because of his love of life and the ones he cares about.  He ended the Catalyst's cycle and saved earth in the process.

In my humble opinion, the series was about the choice between working together and standing on your own feet. Sacrifice is a part of war, a painful part, and certainly another theme, but not the primary one. That said, I didn't have the feeling that I was making a sacrifice in the end. In fact, the only option that had an inkling of sacrifice was the destroy the reapers ending, and even then only if you gave a crap about the Geth.

I also found it a slap in the face of the Geth that fought so hard for peace, only to either be wiped out to destroy the Reapers, or assimilated to become the same as every other being (even though that doesn't even seem possible).

Gah! There it goes again... that assimilation ending makes no sense whatsoever. Neither does the control option, neither does the catalyst. It's all just one big plothole. Possibly the biggest plothole I've seen.

Seriously, if you think it's a good ending: How does assimilation work on the Geth? They're software, they can't become biological in nature for that fact alone! Why didn't the catalyst just open the doors to the Reapers? How can such a dumb idiotic being as the catalyst lord over the vast intelligences of the Reapers? How could Shepard ever hope to do that? It all makes no sense...

I think you are too nitpicky and are looking for everything negative.  So many things in Mass Effect just are and we've never questioned them before.  We have Asari who can mate with any species.  We have biotics that any species can use.  We believed that Cerberus could actually bring Shepard back to life after being spaced.  We have a prothean who can learn/see/sense from touch.  Beacons that transmit info through shepard that "any other human couldn't handle".  Also, theres indoctrination, The whole idea of the mass effect.  We have to believe that with all the battle Tali has been in that shes never had a suit rupture that caused a bad enough of an infectoin to kill her.  I just feel like I could go on and on about things that the writers just ask us to believe, and we've all accpted. And with all this, in the end they want us to believe that the creators of reapers... controllers of life... a being that has been around forever has the power to synthesize organics and synthetics.  Sure, I have no reason not to believe that something so powerful has that ability.  Shepard didn't.  I didn't.  The writers didn't.  People are just refusing to admit that that's just the way it is.  I'm not even 100% happy with ending by any means, there are things that I would have done differently, but im not on the Bioware team, nor are any of these people complaining... but I accept it and still enjoyed it.  I have had the best experience with the Mass Effect series over every other game I've ever played.  I thank them for undertaking the biggest video game project in history.  Who else gave us a story like this, so vast, with the ability to make choices and carry over your saves.  It was amazing.  Be happy you got to be a part of it.

Modifié par B1RDS_i, 11 mars 2012 - 09:50 .

[CrazyRah]

HKR148 wrote...

[Posted this on other thread as well]

What I absolutely am not tolerating is the traumatic betrayal of the central philosophy that Bioware was trying to build up in ME3. Take Paragon path for an example. The definition of 'hope' was not only that the rest of the galaxy will survive, but 'hope' that he/she will be able to get through the ordeal along with people he/she cherishes (love interest, squad members, friends etc.) even though the odd was very slim.

Shepard went through the odds to try breaking the cycle. The Prothean has acknowledged that what he/she has done was something that was never seen in the history of the galaxy filled with repeated genocidal cycle commited by the reapers. Right up to the fleet approaching Earth; the story had reached a climax where Shepard and the rest of the galaxy is about to undo the Reapers and it's all because of the protagonist's existence.

Then the catalyst happened, every philosophical direction the game was taking suddenly became meaningless. Whatever the truth the catalyst believed in is the absolute truth and we must accept that. And suddenly Shepard, and us the players, have to comply with that unacceptable philosophy.

This in my view was an absolute betrayal against the central theme of the ME story-line, and for me this is absolutely unacceptable. If this was a book I wouldn't even bother keeping it in my bookshelf. The way Bioware portrays human value is simply unacceptable by any philosophical standard in my book.

[New input]

There is absolutely nothing useful about the ideals the conclusion is telling you. If ending is what Bioware envisions the humanity as to be, I have to say I'm very concerned for the individuals working in that company.

You describe exactly what i feel about this. It's an absolute betrayal against the central theme of ME and for me that's never going to be acceptable.

[B1RDS_i]

Taleroth wrote...

B1RDS_i wrote...

 The whole series you want to destroy the Reapers because it's all you know, then you learn there is a lot more.

Yes, we learn that Joker is a coward. We learn that our companions have personal teleportation technology and are immortal. And lastly, we learn that Shepard is a complete pansy who's unwilling to defy the Reapers' boss or even call him out on being insane.

Anyone who saw the "boy" as nothing but the "Reaper boss" is way too closeminded.  If that's what you believe after watching then... well, I suppose you're just not gonna be happy

In the way the Catalyst acted and talked about the war and all that crap, I got the impression that he was way more than a Reaper boss.  The reapers were created to control chaos of life and existence in general.. I'd say this guy has other things on his mind than just this cycles ending.  Shepard did make him realize his way was flawed because he was the first organic to get to this point.  Forcing the catalyst to come up with a new way to maintain order in the universe.