70 réponses à ce sujet

[Ahisgewaya]

I may be the only one, but Lelian actually makes me dread any cutscene with her.
Her love of pretty shoes to me speaks of decadence, but that's not what I can't stand about her.
She seems like a spoiled princess sort of girl, which is very odd since she's a spy.
Especially her discussion with my elven character which placed her out of my "slightly annoying character" category to my "disgusting, weak and ammoral" sort of character. Oh I know that she sticks up for any good maker fearing soul, but anyone who thinks slavery is pleasant should have very bad things happen to them. She doesn't stick up for people when it counts, is overly fond of her crooked slaving empire of a country, and whines about her shoes when you're trying to keep the world from being destroyed.
The real kicker is I was starting to think she wasn't that bad up until that comment about the elf slaves. I understand it's popular right now to hate elves for some weird reason, but slavery is just wrong. How did she get this elitist? Especially since she's a rogue.

[Naturalus]

Well she is a Bard also thats why she likes good looking style and shoes etc...I see it very logical if you are a bard that you care a lot about how you look and dress.

[Varenus Luckmann]

She's "not just a spy". She's a bard. She's from the upper class of Orlais, a country seemingly modeled after 16th-ish century France. We're talking about a society of extremes. The highest class(es) are very high while the lower classes are.. slightly lower than mud.

Slavery being "just wrong" is extremely modern. And disliking the elves "for some wierd reason" isn't really wierd either. They're lower-class slavering muck-peddlers who lie, cheat and steal. Wheter that's for social or racial reasons doesn't really matter, from a sociological viewpoint.

Leliana

Modifié par Varenus Luckmann, 27 novembre 2009 - 09:54 .

[Ahisgewaya]

Naturalus wrote...

Well she is a Bard also thats why she likes good looking style and shoes etc...I see it very logical if you are a bard that you care a lot about how you look and dress.

Okay, that explains the shoes. Do bards like slavery too?

[Brylis32]

If you don't like her then don't use her.

Secondly she was raised in a country where slavery was common. When your raised to like that it's not so weird. She weren't on the reciving end of the slaving so why would she care about that. Also she says that they are serfs. Small difference but still a difference.

And being overly fond of a crooked slaving empire? So she likes the place she comes from? How weird...

Also please explain why she couldn't be an elitist just because she a rouge/bard.

[Rugaru]

If it wasn't for the accent, and the slavery thing I wouldn't mind her that bad....

[Ahisgewaya]

Varenus Luckmann wrote...

Slavery being "just wrong" is extremely modern. And disliking the elves "for some wierd reason" isn't really wierd either. They're lower-class slavering muck-peddlers who lie, cheat and steal. Wheter that's for social or racial reasons doesn't really matter, from a sociological viewpoint.

Leliana

Well, I was actually referring to the gaming community in real life as hating elves for some weird reason, but that's just because most gamers I know hate elves. And this game has shown me many times that the nobles in it also tend to lie, cheat and steal as well. Not to mention murder....

[Twitchmonkey]

Brylis32 wrote...

If you don't like her then don't use her.
Secondly she was raised in a country where slavery was common. When your raised to like that it's not so weird. She weren't on the reciving end of the slaving so why would she care about that. Also she says that they are serfs. Small difference but still a difference.
And being overly fond of a crooked slaving empire? So she likes the place she comes from? How weird...
Also please explain why she couldn't be an elitist just because she a rouge/bard.

Aye, I think she does what she feels is right and moral, but she is a product of her environment, not a revolutionary paragon of human rights.

Still has to be better than the "I'm evil because it's cool" Morrigan.

[Ahisgewaya]

Brylis32 wrote...

If you don't like her then don't use her.

I don't intend to.

Brylis 32 wrote...

Also please explain why she couldn't be an elitist just because she a rouge/bard.

I assumed she came from a poorer background, since she was a rogue. Silly me. (not sarcasm, in retrospect I think it was quite rediculous of me to think this)

[Ahisgewaya]

Twitchmonkey wrote...

Still has to be better than the "I'm evil because it's cool" Morrigan.

See, Morrigan isn't evil cause it's cool though. She's evil because she was raised by a demon that fully intends to eat her soul and steal her body.

Modifié par Ahisgewaya, 27 novembre 2009 - 10:03 .

[Never]

What was the comment she made about the slaves?

[Taerda]

Slavery up until 200 or so years ago was seen world-wide much differently then modern western societies see it now. Turks enslaved Christians, Christians enslaved Heathen and soulless people and other societies enslaved everyone outside of their own ...



The world of Dragon Age's nations and empires have the historical viewpoint - all except Loghain who even thought it was justifiable to enslave people from your own society. That is the line that Loghain crossed -- I'm pretty sure player characters actually played as creatures of their societies would be more acceptable of slavery (Harrowmont raiding the surface for golem souls showing even Dwarfs were ok with slavery).



I actually prefer Orlais characters (Lilianna and Isobelle), because their politics, views and society seems more grounded in the Renaciance(sp) period beliefs of 16-18th century Europe, a time of history I understand better then others.

[Varenus Luckmann]

Ahisgewaya wrote...

Varenus Luckmann wrote...

Slavery being "just wrong" is extremely modern. And disliking the elves "for some wierd reason" isn't really wierd either. They're lower-class slavering muck-peddlers who lie, cheat and steal. Wheter that's for social or racial reasons doesn't really matter, from a sociological viewpoint.

Leliana

Well, I was actually referring to the gaming community in real life as hating elves for some weird reason, but that's just because most gamers I know hate elves. And this game has shown me many times that the nobles in it also tend to lie, cheat and steal as well. Not to mention murder....

Of course they do. But they're doing it in an entirely different manner. I didn't say there were consistant.

As for everyone disliking elves.. it's because they're overdone. They are always superior to humans and every silly nooblet wants to be one.

[Varenus Luckmann]

Ahisgewaya wrote...

Twitchmonkey wrote...

Still has to be better than the "I'm evil because it's cool" Morrigan.

See, Morrigan isn't evil cause it's cool though. She's evil because she was raised by a demon that fully intends to eat her soul and steal her body.

So you're making excuses for a genuinely "evil" character, but not for one with a few solid character "flaws"?

[Ahisgewaya]

Varenus Luckmann wrote...

As for everyone disliking elves.. it's because they're overdone. They are always superior to humans and every silly nooblet wants to be one.

The tolkeinesque elves are certainly overdone. I've always like the creepy fey folk inspired by works such as "The Erlkoenig". People seem to have forgotten these sort of elves, which is why I like that you can play a dalish elf who lives in a society slowly becoming that.

[Rugaru]

Taerda wrote...

Slavery up until 200 or so years ago was seen world-wide much differently then modern western societies see it now. Turks enslaved Christians, Christians enslaved Heathen and soulless people and other societies enslaved everyone outside of their own ...

The world of Dragon Age's nations and empires have the historical viewpoint - all except Loghain who even thought it was justifiable to enslave people from your own society. That is the line that Loghain crossed -- I'm pretty sure player characters actually played as creatures of their societies would be more acceptable of slavery (Harrowmont raiding the surface for golem souls showing even Dwarfs were ok with slavery).

I actually prefer Orlais characters (Lilianna and Isobelle), because their politics, views and society seems more grounded in the Renaciance(sp) period beliefs of 16-18th century Europe, a time of history I understand better then others.

As someone who plays dwarfs a lot, let me just say that one person doing something from that race doesn't mean everyone is ok with it. Even the dwarf that created the anvil hated the slavery that it caused.<---This also goes with Loghain as well, just cause he thought it was OK doesn't mean every human did.

Also popular belief does not make some thing "right". Just because everyone is playing russian roulette does that mean you are going to?

[Ahisgewaya]

Varenus Luckmann wrote...

So you're making excuses for a genuinely "evil" character, but not for one with a few solid character "flaws"?

I make no excuses, I was just stating I like Morrigan and understand her. I despise people who seem to think they are noble and favored by all that is good and right but deep down aren't noble at all. (And I mean noble in the sense of righteous)

And I never said Lelianna wasn't a fleshed out character, just that she sickens me.

[WeeRLegion]

This game doesn't have nearly enough of either racism or slavery. Seriously, Fereldan morality seems to be fashioned after the latest modern trends. *sigh*

When I'm playing an elf, I want to FEEL the hate. Where are the grannies with their pointing fingers, the children throwing rocks? Where are the white robed lynch mobs?



Seriously, excepting the city elf origin, this game has about 0 incidents of real racism.



We needs moar racism!

[Taerda]

Couldar wrote...

As someone who plays dwarfs a lot, let me just say that one person doing something from that race doesn't mean everyone is ok with it. Even the dwarf that created the anvil hated the slavery that it caused.<---This also goes with Loghain as well, just cause he thought it was OK doesn't mean every human did.

Also popular belief does not make some thing "right". Just because everyone is playing russian roulette does that mean you are going to?

I actually agree with you, but I do not know how Bhelgen handles the Golems (only saved the anvil with Harrowmont) .. and my observation with that was only to point out that at least the Dwarf ruler considered to be Conservative, Dogma, traditional and more respectful of lawfull precedent was shown at the ending slide-show to be organizing surface raids to capture slaves for the dwarf golem making. I have no clue if there was a Dwarven civil war being waged because of it, because the ending slideshow gives no evidence either way.

I also agree with your assertion about popular belief ... after all we now know witches can float on water, where in Salem, during the 1600s they had it wrong

[Ahisgewaya]

WeeRLegion wrote...

This game doesn't have nearly enough of either racism or slavery. Seriously, Fereldan morality seems to be fashioned after the latest modern trends. *sigh*
When I'm playing an elf, I want to FEEL the hate. Where are the grannies with their pointing fingers, the children throwing rocks? Where are the white robed lynch mobs?

Seriously, excepting the city elf origin, this game has about 0 incidents of real racism.

We needs moar racism!

If there was that much racism, I'd slaughter every human in that city and wouldn't see any reason to save the world. Or continue playing for that matter.

[DPSSOC]

Ahisgewaya wrote...

Especially her discussion with my elven character which placed her out of my "slightly annoying character" category to my "disgusting, weak and ammoral" sort of character. Oh I know that she sticks up for any good maker fearing soul, but anyone who thinks slavery is pleasant should have very bad things happen to them.

 
It isn't slavery, the elves are paid just not much, and she's simply pointing out that some elves do have it pretty nice.  It's actually an attitude you see a lot of when anyone looks to those less fortunate.  Often when we see people who are in a bad way we comfort ourselves by thinking, at least they have it better than...  She acknowledges that Elves are treated badly and is naturally pointing out that not everyone has it so bad.

As for the people hating elf thing it most likely stems from the fact that elves in most fantasy settings are generally depicted as arrogant, elitist, and superior.  That they're generally good guys doesn't take away from the desire to pull them down off their high horse and beat them to death.

[Taerda]

DPSSOC wrote... As for the people hating elf thing it most likely stems from the fact that elves in most fantasy settings are generally depicted as arrogant, elitist, and superior.  That they're generally good guys doesn't take away from the desire to pull them down off their high horse and beat them to death.

Everyone wants to be a Legolas :innocent:

or was it RA Salvadore's character Drzzit?

[tmp7704]

Twitchmonkey wrote...

Still has to be better than the "I'm evil because it's cool" Morrigan.

Morrigan isn't "evil because it's cool"; she simply cares only about her own survival and nothing about how it makes others view her, because that's how she was raised -- it was taught to her it is the only thing that matters. She is as much a product of her environment as Leliana or any other character.

[tmp7704]

DPSSOC wrote...

It isn't slavery, the elves are paid just not much, and she's simply pointing out that some elves do have it pretty nice.

Leliana has a very different mindset about elves than she does about humans. In short, she thinks of the elves more like one would think of "prized house animals" rather than equal human beings. It is something you can call her out on and she does reflect on it when you do it (at least if your character is elf, don't know about others)  So it's more of an ignorance and just acceptance of the views she grew up with, than reasoned discrimination. Leliana is young and rather self-centered and so rarely stops to think really deep about feelings of others -- the conversation you can have with her about how she'd do her work as a bard is very telling.

[Alex Savchovsky]

Brylis32 wrote...

Secondly she was raised in a country where slavery was common. When your raised to like that it's not so weird. She weren't on the reciving end of the slaving so why would she care about that.

Oh... how comes everyone is so understanding for the character he likes? But when you don't like, it becomes "booo, Morrigan doesn't like me because I want to help every whimper in the game and get the XP for it". 
Aside from this... I still don't like Leliana. I can't trust a person who comes to me and says "hey, I'm coming with you 'cuz the Maker told me so".