70 réponses à ce sujet

[hawat333]

Just imagine my toughened dwarf criminal, wearing the heaviest plate you can imagine, stinking from seven types of brew, saying: Oh, I love shoes!

[blaalindorm]

The world is about to end from The Blight, and she just goes on about shoes...

[tmp7704]

But if it wasn't for the pretty shoes the world wouldn't be even worth saving.

[Akka le Vil]

Err...

I may have missed something, but where does Leliana consider slavery pleasant ? 0_o

[Herr Uhl]

Akka le Vil wrote...

Err...
I may have missed something, but where does Leliana consider slavery pleasant ? 0_o

This is also new to me.

I just dislike her for her slightly attention-**** behavior. Sadly in the bottom on the list of my favorite party members...

But I don't mind my party members being silly once in a while, otherwise Zevran, Oghren and Alastair would be way lower on the list.

[tmp7704]

Orlais is apparently based on serfdom which is a system where the peasants are unfree and basically a property of feudal lord. It is not as much she thinks it's "pleasant" but rather she thinks it is not so bad because some of these serfs 'get so rich they can even afford to have serfs themselves'.

[Herr Uhl]

So it is kind of like the fact that slaves had it better than the free men during the Renaissance?



Still, I do not know where she mentions that.

[Few87]

Hey at least she has her priorities right, shoes first, world second

[tmp7704]

Well, it's like "It's not so bad because not all serfs have it bad". I can't recall right off the bat when precisely this conversation happens but it's pretty early in the game. I think she starts this one herself, trying to compliment you (but it's not the 'pretty hair!' conversation) Maybe this particular angle only happens if your character is an elf, no idea.

[Akka le Vil]

Herr Uhl wrote...

This is also new to me.

I just dislike her for her slightly attention-**** behavior. Sadly in the bottom on the list of my favorite party members...

She doesn't seem "attention-w..." to me, just naturally sweet and open. She did spend her life as a seductive bard after all (which put a bit her behaviour into question : is it simulated or real ?).

But I don't mind my party members being silly once in a while, otherwise Zevran, Oghren and Alastair would be way lower on the list.

I just LOVE her silliness. It just brings a smile to my face. Morrigan and her smug misplaced pretentiousness can snag someone else, I stick to sweetness

[Herr Uhl]

Akka le Vil wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

This is also new to me.

I just dislike her for her slightly attention-**** behavior. Sadly in the bottom on the list of my favorite party members...

She doesn't seem "attention-w..." to me, just naturally sweet and open. She did spend her life as a seductive bard after all (which put a bit her behaviour into question : is it simulated or real ?).

It is something that stuck with me since for some reason. Kind of like my irrational dislike for Bann Teagan, 2timing sod, and my irrational liking for Bhelen, but I only liked Bhelen after being dwarf noble.

And I still want more Howe, damn you Curry!

[Naturalus]

Ahisgewaya wrote...

Naturalus wrote...

Well she is a Bard also thats why she likes good looking style and shoes etc...I see it very logical if you are a bard that you care a lot about how you look and dress.

Okay, that explains the shoes. Do bards like slavery too?

I don’t remember her liking slavery she just tells that in Orlais elf slaves are doing better and are more respected than elf slaves in Fedelren. She is neutral toward slavery she don’t feel that she should fight to gain more rights for the elf’s but she don’t feel that she should oppress slaves more either. Leliana just seem to want quiet life in the chantry away from problems of her past of being rogue.

Bard Rogues are spies and assassins and spy get paid by rich and powerful to do things for them I don’t see the point why any bard rogue would want to bite the hand that is feeding and needing his / her special skills?

Slavery is not automatically bad thing as freedom also means that you are free to do bad things to your people and your self. Forcing people to live in the slavery could be actually a good thing for them.

Its same in RL too Most of the humanity don’t care that their goods are produced by slaves in some third world country with people that don’t have same rights as you have as long as they get their goods as cheaply as possible.

Only difference is that in modern age it is not called slavery but essentially it is same thing. Slavery = means that some group of people don’t have same opportunities and rights than other part of the people. How many goods you use that are tagged produced in China with people that work 12h a day with 1 dollar day wage? If you buy those goods it means that you accept slavery. If you  say that you don’t own any goods at all that are made in China I wont believe you.

[slackbheep]

This is sort of interesting to read, because I also felt Leliana was a more immoral character than Morrigan, but she's largely seen as being innocent. To me, Leliana has always seemed to be "playing" the party and PC and I always expected her to slide a dagger between the PCs ribs, Especially after dealing with her mentor when you can speak about orlesian spies, and so on. It might have been because I hardened her personality on this playthrough, but her opinions seem too malleable it's hard to imagine she is not just sticking with the PC for entertainment value. Also, the fact that after hardening she admits to being bored in the chantry and so on, sort of makes one question her sincerity one way or the other. (Though I consider the hardening in her case to just be her dropping the nun fascade)

[Lucy Glitter]

Ahh, the feminine mystique. You guys amuse me.

[RazorrX]

Leliana is just prissy. After living in the chantry wearing robes, etc. when she is adventuring again, her prissy nature comes out. Plus there is Morrigan in group wearing what she does, and is a rival for attention. Morrigan is more Low level sexy and Lelianne wants to be seen as high class sexy.



The attention thing is the biggest issue. She is an attention ****. She 'hears' the Maker. Just like the prophet. The Maker chose HER to speak to. Even the guardian tells her she is full of crap. She does those things because it gets her attention.



And thus why I ended up not romancing her anymore even though I like the voice. I dated a girl just like her, even to the point of getting religion and having god talk to her. Yeah ... been there, done that, and still need therapy. ;P

[Alphidius]

Ahisgewaya wrote...

Brylis 32 wrote...

Also please explain why she couldn't be an elitist just because she a rouge/bard.

I assumed she came from a poorer background, since she was a rogue. Silly me. (not sarcasm, in retrospect I think it was quite rediculous of me to think this)

Not to nitpick here but the assumption of a Rogue coming from a poorer background is totally flawed in this game universe... In the more popular AD&D universe where Bard is a class of its own, yes, Rouge would been counted as more of a thieving, sneaky, lowly miscreants type of class.
But here, Rogue is but part of a few specializations. While I do think that Bioware made Specializations "too little, too late, too few differences", I digress...

To me, Leliana is what I'd call a Courtesan from the Medieval times where she is in the employ of a noble lady of higher class. The games of politics, seduction, espionage & at times, murder are part of her job at her lady's expense...
While she may perform such tasks, what's to say she doesn't hate what she does? Also, without a proper backstory, what's to say that elves in Orlesia behave the same way elves in Ferelden? They could mostly be cutthroats & ruthless bands of mercenaries for all you know. And what's wrong with a lady working for the upper class to like to look nice, preened & pretty?

My 3 cents

Modifié par Alphidius, 27 novembre 2009 - 03:15 .

[Rivie]

I'm fairly certain that Leliana only brings up her love of footwear in one, at most two conversations outside of her banter with Morrigan. I never faulted her for that. I mean, it's when things are toughest that you remember the silliest things. If she went on and on about them at every turn, now that'd be a problem.

On the desire for frivolous things in the tough situation you're in.. what, you never see movies, read books, or hear of people in life-threatening situations saying they miss stuff like a hot cup of cider? It does happen. I suspect the mind tends to jump to things that can potentially destress you... or its just one of the weird things that happens. Like how people who think they're about to die  think the craziest things. "Oh crap, that car's gonna run me over... and I think I might've left the front door unlocked."

Modifié par Rivie, 27 novembre 2009 - 03:35 .

[ToJKa1]

WeeRLegion wrote...

This game doesn't have nearly enough of either racism or slavery. Seriously, Fereldan morality seems to be fashioned after the latest modern trends. *sigh*
When I'm playing an elf, I want to FEEL the hate. Where are the grannies with their pointing fingers, the children throwing rocks? Where are the white robed lynch mobs?

Seriously, excepting the city elf origin, this game has about 0 incidents of real racism.

We needs moar racism!

Agreed, i've played with two elf characters and people's reactions weren't really any different compared to my current human noble character, apart from the occasional "YOU'RE AN ELF!" comment, as Yahtzee put it

Maybe it's those big, violent looking people i traveled with.

[Rivie]

Yeah, I wish there was more anti-elf commentary or NPCs around. My xenophobic city elf could use more ammunition against the humans, and more occasions to be a snooty little b**ch.

[Few87]

Rivie wrote...

Yeah, I wish there was more anti-elf commentary or NPCs around. My xenophobic city elf could use more ammunition against the humans, and more occasions to be a snooty little b**ch.

Exactly, thats the one thing i want in this game more than anything. I want to actually be treated really badly as an elf, not just a random "so your an elf". Hopefully bioware will see this and add more in patchs or expansions. pleaseeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

[keesio74]

The real kicker is I was starting to think she wasn't that bad up until that comment about the elf slaves. I understand it's popular right now to hate elves for some weird reason, but slavery is just wrong. How did she get this elitist? Especially since she's a rogue.

Yeah her comment caught me off guard when I first heard it (as an elf character). Especially because I thought she is just an ultra goody-goody character.

But then as I learned more her background, I understood.

As for her attitude being far fetched this day and age, It is more common than you think. In some places where there is a big gap between rich and poor, that attitude is common. When I visit India, many people have full-time servents because labor is so cheap. And they treat them like they are a servent (almost disrespectful). These are decent people but they are just used to how things work and how servents are treated. And many have the attitude is "I am doing them a favor becuse without me employing them, they would be starving and I also treat them far better then others". Not just India, note how Pakistani laborers are treated in the UAE. And so on. It's not slavery but it is the same attitude Leliana had when she talked about how well the elven servents were treated in Orlais compared to other places.

[Naturalus]

keesio74 wrote...

As for her attitude being far fetched this day and age, It is more common than you think. In some places where there is a big gap between rich and poor, that attitude is common. When I visit India, many people have full-time servents because labor is so cheap. And they treat them like they are a servent (almost disrespectful). These are decent people but they are just used to how things work and how servents are treated. And many have the attitude is "I am doing them a favor becuse without me employing them, they would be starving and I also treat them far better then others". Not just India, note how Pakistani laborers are treated in the UAE. And so on. It's not slavery but it is the same attitude Leliana had when she talked about how well the elven servents were treated in Orlais compared to other places.

This is how I see her attitude too. I see Leliana more of high maintenance girl that sells services only with high price and only for those who can pay best prices rather than poor street girl that feel sympathy toward servants, serfs and slaves.

[kormesios]

Varenus Luckmann wrote...

She's "not just a spy". She's a bard. She's from the upper class of Orlais, a country seemingly modeled after 16th-ish century France. We're talking about a society of extremes. The highest class(es) are very high while the lower classes are.. slightly lower than mud.

She is not from the upper classes.  IIRC her mother was a serving girl for an Orlaisian noble.  She had various upper-class patrons in her life, who exposed her to 'finer things', but there was never a time when she was entitled to those things in her own right.

In this context, her love for those things makes sense, and I think make her a reasonable character.  On the one hand, she was sheltered from the really bad inequalities of Orlais, since her experience as a lower class wench wasn't that bad (no being raped by a chevalier for her).  On the other hand, she knew enough about class to know that it could be hard to get frilly things like shoes, so you might as well enjoy them when you have time.

Her myopia about other things, like slavery, makes sense from this perspective as well.

Of course, "making sense" doesn't mean they are attractive quality traits.  That's up to the player.

[Dark83]

Naturalus wrote...

I don’t remember her liking slavery she just tells that in Orlais elf slaves are doing better and are more respected than elf slaves in Fedelren. She is neutral toward slavery she don’t feel that she should fight to gain more rights for the elf’s but she don’t feel that she should oppress slaves more either. Leliana just seem to want quiet life in the chantry away from problems of her past of being rogue.

More or less.
Neither Orlais not Ferelden has actual slaves - the only actual slavery in the game is on the part of Loghain.
It looks like Orlais has indentured servants. The context of the conversation with Leliana is that the elves in Ferelden have it much worse - being considered non-entities locked up in Alienages.

It's just that she never thought of being a (well-off) indentured servant was that bad. Considering her own background, it's understandable. Bards/spies/assassins all play pretty much the same role to the nobles, as highly skilled servants. Her own mother was in the same position, but they served what appears to be a nice lady, which would skew her view of it.

Morrigan isn't evil, she's just stubborn and puts up a front of being tough. <_< You can poke holes in her facade about "love is a weakness" if you say you love your mother when she asks. She says she may be envious, and her expression of vulnerability for that moment makes me want to give her a hug.

Of course, I tend to give them both "hugs", if you know what I mean. *nudge nudge wink wink saynomore saynomore!*