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[llllshadowllll]

I beat insanity with a sentinel

[Xariann]

Sarah Aran wrote...

Thetri wrote...

This is confusing, some of you are saying vanguard is easy and some are saying it's the hardest. Which class is overpowered like sentinel was really in me2?

It's hard to say that the Sentinel was anywhere near overpowered in ME2. For all the defensiveness you could get out of it, you lost in offensive capacity.

Then you weren't using your Tech Armour properly.

I have a few Sentinel videos where I can show you how I blew the Armour on mobs' faces and use the CD reset of that skill to the point where my companions once took me aside and asked for a vacation. And I simply killed the Shadowbroker in melee range, he never fired a bullet, and blew the armour in his face countless times trying to riflebutt me and failing.

I thought Soldier was really easy until I played Sentinel. I got to agree with who says it was OP in ME 2.

[termokanden]

A lot of classes were really OP in ME2. Sentinels basically couldn't die. Soldiers could do riciculous weapon damage, vanguards were also completely insane but required at least basic common sense to avoid getting killed.

A lot of classes are OP in ME3 as well, but the power balance has certainly shifted. I'd say sentinels and soldiers are the least powerful now. Powerful enough, no doubt about that, but just not as overpowered as the others.

[Biglose]

Well, sentinels could die...
Soldiers were OP no matter how you build and played them. Adranaline rush worked great with sniper, assault rifle or pistol...

For the sentinel you needed to tweak a bit to make it work.
Before the DLCs (espacially stolen memory) the sentinel had to take the assault rifle or the shootgun in the collector vessel, or you would be ****ed. (Assault rifle for cover+shoot, shootgun for assault)

Now, with the DLC the Locus makes up for the need to have an assault rifle. You may still take the shootgun or something you like. You will still be able to own.

The next point is to get the maximum out of your tech armor.
Now, there are two possibilities. The first is the "explode it in the face of the enemy". For this I strongly suggest the shootgun and the evolution which restores your shields after exploding it.
The other way is to keep it on, the whole level.
For this to work perfectly you should take another shield power. For example barrier. This works great with the locus, for example. Spring out of cover, empty you clip, flip back reload, break relead with using barrier, spring cover and empty your clip... This enables you to take down enemys at an incredible rate. Espacially if you are using squad ammo.
Mostly because if done right, you have cut reloading time and shield regeneration to nearly nothing.

But thats just quite complex compared to a soldier:
Use adranalin rush+ ammo power->enjoy.

It is kind of the same thing in Mass Effect 3. Sentinels can have some interesting combos. (Tech armor+ reave for a high damage protection, but you have to get your upgrades, choice of armor etc. right to make it really work. Soldier is more straight forward. Adranalin rush+good weapon+ammo Power->enjoy.
The only thing with the soldier class is to take the bonus to ammo powers as your last class evolution. But that should be a no-brainer anyway.

What kind of weakens the sentinel and other classes without an ammo-power is the only 50% for team ammo. This kind of makes the team ammo evolution nearly pointless, giving only a small boost. (Which was the most awsome thing to have in ME 2)

[Abraham_uk]

I know it's strange, but I actually prefer ME 3 tech armour to ME 2.

I like not having to spam the power. Put the tech armour on for the damage protection, and focus on using the other powers.

[brad2240]

Biglose wrote...

For the sentinel you needed to tweak a bit to make it work.
Before the DLCs (espacially stolen memory) the sentinel had to take the assault rifle or the shootgun in the collector vessel, or you would be ****ed. (Assault rifle for cover+shoot, shootgun for assault)

Not at all. The Predator and Shuriken were both decent weapons all the way through the game and you could upgrade to Carnifex and Tempest if you wanted. You never, ever needed DLC or even bonus weapons to do good with a Sentinel in ME2.

It is kind of the same thing in Mass Effect 3. Sentinels can have some interesting combos. (Tech armor+ reave for a high damage protection, but you have to get your upgrades, choice of armor etc. right to make it really work. Soldier is more straight forward. Adranalin rush+good weapon+ammo Power->enjoy.
The only thing with the soldier class is to take the bonus to ammo powers as your last class evolution. But that should be a no-brainer anyway.

I think you're over-complicating the ME3 Sentinel. It can be as straight forward as Warp + Throw. You literally need nothing else to get though the game and you don't even need to aim as well as a Soldier. All while having better DR.

I enjoy playing Soldier more, but Sentinel is a more powerful and more versatile class.

What kind of weakens the sentinel and other classes without an ammo-power is the only 50% for team ammo. This kind of makes the team ammo evolution nearly pointless, giving only a small boost. (Which was the most awsome thing to have in ME 2)

I love me some ammo powers but they're not at all neccessary. None of the classes without native ammo powers are "weakened" in any way for not having them.

[RedCaesar97]

Abraham_uk wrote...

I know it's strange, but I actually prefer ME 3 tech armour to ME 2.

I like not having to spam the power. Put the tech armour on for the damage protection, and focus on using the other powers.

That is more of an issue with ME2 where you were forced to put points into some powers to unlock other powers, which was also a pain in ME1. The ME2 Sentinel would have been more versatile if you had the option to ignore Tech Armor completely.

Tech Armor is ME3 is only good for the damage protection, which really is not all that good on Shepard by itself in my opinion; you need another damage protection power to make it even better. The power damage bonus at rank 5 is nice.

ME3 Tech Armor does not auto-detonate (nor is there an evolution for it), nor does it detonate any sort of explosions, and the detonation damage is rather lackluster as well, and it does not really stun very well.

ME2 Tech Armor evolved to Assault Armor trumps anything that ME3 Tech Armor can offer.

[Abraham_uk]

I don't mind focusing on warp and overload anyway.

The tech armour doesn't slow down cooldowns that much.

The ME 3 Sentinel has the warp + throw combo, overload and the often overlooked power that is cryo blast. Not to mention one of the coolest looking grenades in Mass Effect 3.


I think in ME 2, I'm going to more or less abandon the tech armour tactic.
I'll use it when I'm overwhelmed (which is I think the purpose of it), but I want my other powers to be at hand. I like to play the sentinel like a caster, not a shotgun wielding close quarters combantant. I have the vanguard for that purpose.


When the going get's tough, slap on the assault armour.
Otherwise, keep the tech armour off, and use the powers.
It's probably harder that way, but it's more fun if you ask me.

Modifié par Abraham_uk, 01 janvier 2013 - 08:59 .

[capn233]

In ME2 you can get away as a caster sentinel, but it probably isn't quite as efficient.

In ME3 you are essentially a caster. Relying on Tech Armor doesn't really work out since the blast is scaled way back, etc. That and Warp into Throw, or just Throw spammed to targets the team sets up does a lot more damage and is easier.

[Crocodiles]

Sentinels were definitely OP. I would use Tech Armor to reset my allies' cooldowns and spam powers left and right.

Modifié par Crocodiles, 02 janvier 2013 - 01:57 .

[brad2240]

Abraham_uk wrote...

 I like to play the sentinel like a caster, not a shotgun wielding close quarters combantant.

I prefer it as a caster also. It's a very solid build.

[Biglose]

@brad2240
There is a differance between can beat the game and can easy beat the game...

Sorry, but the locus felt twice as good as the tempest and about three times better than the shuriken.

The carnifex has the major drawback of a real low ammo supply. So it can only function as a secondary weapon to finish up heavy mechs or other armored foes.

I think you're over-complicating the ME3 Sentinel. It can be as straight forward as Warp + Throw. You literally need nothing else to get though the game and you don't even need to aim as well as a Soldier. All while having better DR.

If you take a look at the way the damage is calculated, well it really does not make much of a differance.

Damge taken = Damage*(1-0.75*Damage reduction)

This means 100 damage with a full 40% reduction will be 70 damage...
Thats really not much of a differance. And you get a +80% for all cooldowns...

I love me some ammo powers but they're not at all neccessary. None of the classes without native ammo powers are "weakened" in any way for not having them.

I love it when people say something is not neccessary in an RPG. A lot of things are not. Does not mean they are not very good or very helpful. And it does not mean not having them would not be a drawback.

You can probably beat ME 2 without investing in any power. Everything outside soldier would be quite hard, granted. In ME 3 it will probably work with any class...

@Crocodiles
Yeah, the power reset combined with a cooldown enhancements....

[Alex_Dur4and]

I beat it with a total "cheat" class:

Infiltrator with Sabotage, Tactical Cloak and Reave, equipped with the Cerberus harrier. Liara in my squad for biotic explosions and James with Incendiary Ammo equipped with the Typhoon and 2 piercing mods.

Brutes and Banshees melted in seconds. Multiple biotic/tech explosions every second. Absolutely NO challenge! It felt like a 3 player coop on bronze multi-player.

[Abraham_uk]

brad2240 wrote...

Abraham_uk wrote...

 I like to play the sentinel like a caster, not a shotgun wielding close quarters combantant.

I prefer it as a caster also. It's a very solid build.

[Still talking about Mass Effect 2 here]

I'm focusing as a caster.
Stand back, use warp and overload, with occasional usage from throw.
Using mostly pistol and SMG.


I did pick shotgun training. Shotguns are good for situations when there are close quarters enemies trying to close in on you. Once they're in range, scemitar can deal with them. Shields gone very quickly, the health will follow shortly.

So I prefer shotgun as a situational weapon for dealing with the close quarters crowd.
The Locust SMG means I don't need an assault rifle.


[Mass Effect 3]

Might use a light assault rifle and a pistol as my weapons.

Leave tech armour and warp ammo on at all times.
Then spam my powers.
Liara and Javik for biotic explosion!
Tali (with her tech vulnerability sabotage) for tech bursts!

Modifié par Abraham_uk, 02 janvier 2013 - 11:55 .

[Mr_Steph]

We play sentinels in quite a similar way then I just use AP ammo instead of Warp ammo haha

[brad2240]

Biglose wrote...

@brad2240
There is a differance between can beat the game and can easy beat the game...

Sorry, but the locus felt twice as good as the tempest and about three times better than the shuriken.

The carnifex has the major drawback of a real low ammo supply. So it can only function as a secondary weapon to finish up heavy mechs or other armored foes.

I never said the Locust wasn't a better weapon. I said the Sentinel didn't need it to be good. I beat ME2 repeatedly with a Sentinel using the Tempest and Carnifex (ignoring my bonus which was usually ARs) and it was easy. I'm not sure why you think it isn't.

Ammo for the Carnifex was never a problem when combined with powers and used in it's proper role as an anti-armor weapon.

Thats really not much of a differance. And you get a +80% for all cooldowns...

And yet it is noticeable, especially against fire from the standard mooks. The cooldown penalty is very often made out to be worse than it really is on this forum, though. Take a light-ish weapons load and the CD penalty won't hurt you.

I love it when people say something is not neccessary in an RPG. A lot of things are not. Does not mean they are not very good or very helpful. And it does not mean not having them would not be a drawback.

I didn't say ammo powers are not good or not helpful. I use them on almost all of my classes. Doesn't mean they're strictly needed, though. It's perfectly possible for all the caster classes to get through the campaign without ever firing a gun. They are certainly not "weakened" by not having ammo powers as you claimed, and in this case not having them is not a drawback at all.

[Abraham_uk]

Warp Ammo versus armour piercing ammo?

Which is the best of the two ammo types in Mass Effect 2 and 3?

[brad2240]

I think AP ammo came out ahead in ME2. I honestly picked based on RP logic: biotic classes got Warp and others got AP.

For ME3, I think the match worked out that AP is better for low-damage rapid fire weapons and Warp is better for the harder hitters. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

[Abraham_uk]

I think that is the general consensus on BSN.

But has anyone actually tested this theory?

Warp for rapid fire and armour piercing for slow heavy hitters.

Modifié par Abraham_uk, 02 janvier 2013 - 08:04 .

[PwnedDuck]

Sentinel. Not that I find it easier or anything, just a personal preference. Also, I bring whatever squadmates feel appropriate story wise, or that I haven't brought for a while.

[RedCaesar97]

Abraham_uk wrote...

I think that is the general consensus on BSN.

But has anyone actually tested this theory?

Warp for rapid fire and armour piercing for slow heavy hitters.

I believe capn233 ran the numbers but I cannot find his calculations or a post explaining how it works. 

[capn233]

In ME2 AP Ammo was better against health and armor, whereas Warp also had a bonus against barriers. Warp ammo also had the double ammo damage versus targets ragdolled by biotics, but all ragdolled targets took double damage from any weapon in that game, and that extra damage was usually a lot more than ammo power damage so that benefit wasn't all that great.

In ME3, if you are talking purely as an ammo versus armor, then AP is better for low damage per shot weapons, and Warp is better for higher damage per shot. If you look at the Piercing and Weakening numbers this should become apparent. Piercing (AP ammo's mechanic) will negate a larger portion of armor damage reduction that Weakening (Warp ammo's mechanic). But Warp ammo has a larger damage bonus than AP, meaning that if base damage is high it will get around the damage reduction with more bonus damage.

What I calculated many months ago was the base damage per shot "break even" point for AP vs Warp ammo where below that point AP ammo was superior vs armor, and above Warp was. I will look for that thread.

As for rapid versus slow firing weapons, that sounds too much like the hint and is really an imprecise way to think about it. Really only base damage matters when you are talking about AP vs Warp Ammo in terms of damage to armor. Something like the Harrier is relatively rapid fire, but does nearly 100 base damage per shot. Shotguns are slow firing but techinically have low damage per shot.

[capn233]

I found a thread where I quoted myself from the original thread, but not the original itself.

if I ran the numbers right, theoretically AP and Warp would give the
same damage per shot (if you take damage over piercing or armor
weakening) if the base damage is 125. If it is higher, than Warp gives
more damage, lower AP Ammo does. If you go max armor weakening, they
are equivalent at base of 166.667, AP better below and Warp better
above.

For the two evolutions of WA, base damage above 100 should
favor damage evolution, and below would favor weakening evolution. For
AP it would seem that base above 125 favors damage, and below favors
piercing.

This is purely against armor, not against health.
Against health the damage evolution would always be better of course. 
The Ammo Power damage should be applied to armor first, and is
supposedly immune to armor  damage reduction. At least that is the
theory.  Additionally, the armor weakening should stack with Piercing
mods, and Warp ammo weakening should apply what is essentially a
"debuff" that also allows squad members to benefit when they take their
shots as well.

The way I did this was simply solving a system of 2 equations, IIRC.  I could run the numbers again to verify them I suppose.  All in all you are talking about small variations in damage to armor most of the time, and that ignores the secondary benefits.  Warp has a bonus to Barriers, and AP has cover penetration.  Either one of those factors may be more important to you than ultimate damage to armor.

[Feirefiz1972]

Vanguard with reave as bonus power is like an adept with biotic charge, only problem is detonating on armor wich would require shockwave. Sentinel with reave would have stacked damage reduction from both tech armor and reave, but i have not tried it yet.

[Abraham_uk]

There are a few things I never liked doing with bonus powers.



If your class has pull, choosing lash.
If your class has warp, choosing reave.
If your class has overload choosing energy drain.
If your class already has adrenaline rush, (soldier) choosing marksman.
If your class already has incendiary ammo, choosing warp ammo or armour piercing ammo.
If your class already has tech armour (sentinel), choosing fortification, barrier or defence matrix


There are probably a few more examples.
I prefer to think of bonus powers as filling in a gap that the class doesn't fill.


Adepts, Engineers and Sentinels are good for bonus ammo powers. Heck even infiltrators could do with armour piercing ammo.

Or placing lash on your sentinel.
Or placing reave on your vanguard

So many choices. Why choose a similiar power?