27 réponses à ce sujet

[Twotricks]

The editor is out for some time now. Yet all i seen is some gameplay modification, or some extra items.

NWN and NWN2 , there were adventure modules popping day after the game was released (not quality ones but still)

Does this mean that DAO editor is to hard to use for average joe ?

And that we might see just few user made adventures, because you have to be pro and invest to much to make one ?

[giskard44]

Well here is a noobie friendly new area tutorial, take a look for your self.

http://www.theengine...cation-tutorial

I am working on a level tutorial now, which will allow you to swap out the level used in that tutorial for one made using my next one. I am doing this to test the level so i know it works. Quests are what i plan to make but the DA editor has a steep learning curve.

Modifié par giskard44, 27 novembre 2009 - 12:43 .

[Tikigod60]

It's not that it's difficult for the average user Twotricks, it's just it has faced a range of problems on launch ranging from odd results with lighting when creating custom levels to export, to people not even being able to export their levels and sunlight not working on exterior levels untill the recently updated lightmapper was released.

Currently I believe the toolset still unable to generate water effects properly, but I have noticed most of the light odditys are now gone now that the lightmapper is processing tasks properly.

So the reason there haven't been many custom modules popping up yet, is because untill afew days ago it wasn't possible to make a proper custom module unless you were happy with barcode styled lighting effects.




I myself have had no real experience what so ever with the NWN toolset before hand, and find creating levels and making them into a area easy enough once afew  assumptions I had made turnt out to be untrue in regards to level areas. And making conversations and scripted events is even easier... it's just a case of noone has been able to make a level that they feel is good enough to share untill this weeks update.

Which I guess probably sucks for people who learn from others examples rather then playing around themselves and learning from experience.

Modifié par Tikigod60, 27 novembre 2009 - 03:31 .

[Quaxo]

Twotricks wrote...

The editor is out for some time now. Yet all i seen is some gameplay modification, or some extra items.

NWN and NWN2 , there were adventure modules popping day after the game was released (not quality ones but still)

Does this mean that DAO editor is to hard to use for average joe ?

And that we might see just few user made adventures, because you have to be pro and invest to much to make one ?

Yeah, this toolset is a lot more complex than NWN's. The two don't even compare. It's definitely not user-friendly. So far, the toolset seems pretty useless for most people to do anything with other than alter their save files. The toolset is far too complex for most people and takes far too long to do anything in for any one person to make a decent module. I've basically given up on it for the time being as there's no point. I'm not interested in trying to team up with other people and attempting to build a module that way.

I recall a post that's probably buried here somewhere from one of the BioWare guys that said even amongst them, there was not one person who knew how to work all aspects of the damn thing, which isn't very encouraging considering they used it to make the game with in the first place. It was recommended that people focus on one certain aspect of the toolset and become really good at that instead of trying to learn everything and then team up with other people who knew the other parts and make something that way, but like I said, I have absolutely no interest in collaborating with other people on a module and therefore have given up making anything at this point. Perhaps later when people come up with some better tutorials and tools to ease the process, I might work on something, but for now it's just too time consuming to make anything decent.

[Daemon83]

The increase in difficulty from NWN to the DAO toolset is like learning how to drive and then being asked to pilot a jet fighter. I've found it really challenging. NWN was really intuitive. I have no programming experience and I was able to create entire modules on my own without any problems and not requiring too much recourse to forums and tutorials.

[Arixsus]

Having never really messed with the NWN toolset, but comming from modding on source and unlreal engines, Id have to say the DAO toolset is magnificent. But it has its drawbacks, but it is way easier then just straight up programming. That's for sure. It is easy enough for someone to crank out a campaign in a day-week, but there would be nothing to it. No cinematics, hardly any quest dialog, no custom area's. It would be highly watered down.



But for something that would really be enjoyable it will take some time, but I only speak from my experiences. I spent a week alone on DA:Bloodlines opening cinematic alone, not to mention another week writing the story and plot lines, plus another couple of days designing a custom map to be used in the game, and I'm not talking about the level type map either.

[Twotricks]

Uh...thats a shame. I really had high hopes this will be close to NWN experience in that aspect.



I still highly regard NWN as absolutely the best Bioware game. If not the best PC RPG. Just because it was so easy to make your own modules. You could make adventure module in 20 minutes.



Alas taking them online and running DM session. Or having persistent online world. Well that was just beyond amazing.

[Quaxo]

Yeah, they should have made something more akin to the NWN toolset. I know a lot of people say "oh, this toolset is so powerful though". Well, it could have been powerful without being so complex. I think they've effectively shortened the life of DA by making this toolset so complex, slow and clunky, unlike NWN which people are still cranking out modules for.

[gordonbrown82]

how do you know that it could have been just as powerful without being complex? any design ideas you want to give to bioware?

[ITSSEXYTIME]

I made a new area in just a few hours... I'm just not going to release something that isn't worth people's bandwidth until I've implemented everything I want to.

[Proleric]

It will take a few months to build modules with hours of gameplay, just as it did for NWN.

Right now, some of us are waiting for the next patch before playing with the toolset again, owing to the OC corruption bug. Having used the beta, I know that the toolset itself is OK, so with that fix and the lighting sorted it should be full steam ahead soon.

I'm kinda surprised by the comment that the toolset is harder to use than NWN. As far as designer resources are concerned, it seems to me that it does much the same things, in a slightly different way. Sure, there's learning, but more complexity? Maybe some advanced features like VO, which you can just ignore initially.

Of course, the art tools are more sophisticated, because we can do a lot of new things, but anyone who wanted to make an instant adventure could either use some OC levels, or make some simple levels with no lighting at all (which ain't bad for demo purposes).
Whether the world needs a shed load of tiny demo modules is another question, of course

Modifié par Proleric1, 28 novembre 2009 - 06:26 .

[FalloutBoy]

It took a while before there were any modules for NWN2. It took even longer before there were any good ones. It will take at least as long with DA.



It's the areas that are tough. It's not tile-based like NWN was. You have to model the terrain like a sculptor and texture it like a painter. Everything else is pretty easy.

[Aslend]

Tikigod60 wrote...

It's not that it's difficult for the average user Twotricks, it's just it has faced a range of problems on launch ranging from odd results with lighting when creating custom levels to export, to people not even being able to export their levels and sunlight not working on exterior levels untill the recently updated lightmapper was released.

Currently I believe the toolset still unable to generate water effects properly, but I have noticed most of the light odditys are now gone now that the lightmapper is processing tasks properly.

So the reason there haven't been many custom modules popping up yet, is because untill afew days ago it wasn't possible to make a proper custom module unless you were happy with barcode styled lighting effects.




I myself have had no real experience what so ever with the NWN toolset before hand, and find creating levels and making them into a area easy enough once afew  assumptions I had made turnt out to be untrue in regards to level areas. And making conversations and scripted events is even easier... it's just a case of noone has been able to make a level that they feel is good enough to share untill this weeks update.

Which I guess probably sucks for people who learn from others examples rather then playing around themselves and learning from experience.

Um, gee, you must be one seriously intelegent person, or have an extensive background in game programming, because this toolset is seriously difficult. I have worked with NWW, NWN2, The Witcher and not DAO too0lsets. All the examples and tutorials I am finding are not using this toolset at all, as promised, this is not the same as the one they used to make the game, not even close. The one used was called Designer Toolset Demo v1.0.0.653 and it has functions this DAO toolset does not, such as Generate FaceFX is not available under "Tools" and it clearly is here http://social.biowar...sation_tutorial I would be thrilled to have you help me, I am unable to even get a simple conversation and quest scene to work properly.

[NewYears1978]

Generate FaceFX is there..they just bunked it up..all you have to do is add a Registry value..there is a topic for it if you search for "Generate FaceFX"

I just fixed mine a second time after rebooting..

Coversations are also very easy to create...google Beyond Ferelden and there is a tutorial there showing conversations..


But yeah..the toolset has some issues..and flaws..I seriously think it shouldn't even have been released yet....but I managed to finish my first mod...twice (after accidentally losing it in a format)

Modifié par NewYears1978, 28 novembre 2009 - 08:29 .

[ITSSEXYTIME]

I agree, I think there was a bit too much pressure to put the toolset out around release. Regardless though, I imagine that within a month there will be a ton of tutorials and the toolset will be patched up well-enough so it's no big deal.

[Arixsus]

ITSSEXYTIME wrote...

I agree, I think there was a bit too much pressure to put the toolset out around release. Regardless though, I imagine that within a month there will be a ton of tutorials and the toolset will be patched up well-enough so it's no big deal.

Very true, but releasing the toolset at the time it did, is giving everyone time to get a better feel of it for when it does get patched into 100% working order. Sure, its a little hard to do things when its broken but... you still get a feeling of what you are doing. Im glad they released it now then waiting for it to be fully patched, just so I can get a feel of it. My only pet peeve is why the hell they would use MSSQL over MySQL. UGH!

[ladydesire]

Arixsus wrote...

Very true, but releasing the toolset at the time it did, is giving everyone time to get a better feel of it for when it does get patched into 100% working order. Sure, its a little hard to do things when its broken but... you still get a feeling of what you are doing. Im glad they released it now then waiting for it to be fully patched, just so I can get a feel of it. My only pet peeve is why the hell they would use MSSQL over MySQL. UGH!

Probably because their database administrator knows MSSQL like the back of his hand.

[The Opinionated One]

I am not going to bother with ANYTHING toolset related until BioWare gets it working as intended. And when I do, I'll be exploring the machinima possibilities using a combination of scenes produced using the cutscene editor and possibly scripted events. I know that they cannot occur at the same time, but with careful editing of the scenes, cutting between shooting methods should make for some dramatic content delivery.



Then again, I may just go entirely with cutscene editing,



I will not be doing comedy, Machinima needs more Action/Drama.

[JustAnotherZero]

Checkout what Adam Miller has accomplished so far.


http://adamandjamie.com/mod/

Look at testing dialog and dream intro below it.

[Arixsus]

ladydesire wrote...

Arixsus wrote...

Very true, but releasing the toolset at the time it did, is giving everyone time to get a better feel of it for when it does get patched into 100% working order. Sure, its a little hard to do things when its broken but... you still get a feeling of what you are doing. Im glad they released it now then waiting for it to be fully patched, just so I can get a feel of it. My only pet peeve is why the hell they would use MSSQL over MySQL. UGH!

Probably because their database administrator knows MSSQL like the back of his hand.

Sucks for him xD

[Aslend]

JustAnotherZero wrote...

Checkout what Adam Miller has accomplished so far.


http://adamandjamie.com/mod/

Look at testing dialog and dream intro below it.

Now see, I really didn't want to look at this, but just felt <compelled> so I did, now I am really depressed and feel like I must be just stupid, because I cannot come close to accomplishing that, heck, I can't even get a door to work, lol. ~sigh~ But yes I agree with the general consensus here, it is early in the life of this toolset, so I see vast improvements comming with it, hopefully soon. I hope Bioware has not adopted the Obsidien approach, "Oh just let the <Community> do it".

[Dallo]

I don't think the NwN toolset was particularly intuitive, though it kinda became so after awhile. You just had to put in the work. The DA toolset , I should think, won't be any different in this respect. Anyone who thinks they'll be able to churn out something decent in days or weeks is off their rocker. Months of development for something with just a couple of hours game time, and years for something 'substantial'...

[FalloutBoy]

Dallo wrote...

I don't think the NwN toolset was particularly intuitive, though it kinda became so after awhile. You just had to put in the work. The DA toolset , I should think, won't be any different in this respect. Anyone who thinks they'll be able to churn out something decent in days or weeks is off their rocker. Months of development for something with just a couple of hours game time, and years for something 'substantial'...

This is pretty accurate. On NWN 2 I found that it took appx 1 month to make an hour of interesting gameplay. Or at least that is about what it averaged out to when I was finished. That didn't include the time it took for me to figure out the basics of the toolset, which is what I am currently doing with DA.

[Ginggis Khan]

Actually, after messing around the Toolset for like 2 weeks now I have to say that the only culprit for me now is making a script. DEMO module has some basic scripts that after reviewing actually opened my eyes. But as I've never wrote any scripts before or am not proficient in C++ at all I still have to use examples and just plug my variables in. I can't for example write a script from scratch on my own. Thats the biggest problem with this toolset.



Then while working on things I start to find out some real annoying little things like that using Headtracking during cutscenes actually makes toolset unstable at around 58 seconds, or 900 frames depending on which type of cutscene you create.



Writing scripts is the worst of the worst. You actually need to know how constants work in C++, you need to know what are events and what happens in the background, which event to use when, etc. The main functionality of the game is actually based on PLOTS and EVENTS. Without scripting all you can do is walk through the level and kill mobs, thats about it. If you want to add actually something FUN into your module - learn how to script. Wanna blow up a barrel - script, wanna create a conversation that updates your journal - script. And so on. Tutorials help, but they are FAR from making things really understandable.



Like someone said - this toolset is like flying a jet plane with the knowledge of how to drive a car. You have to spend a LOT of time in trial and error and even after 2 weeks you'll still be using examples.



Just to show how complex this toolset is - I've spent 10 hours until I was finally finished with 1 minute cutscene. I was able however to create a cutscene in which main actor talks to the player clone, casts a spell, with all the appropriate sounds, visual FXs etc. It will of course take much less now for me to create cutscenes, but man it took a while.



Every editor in this Toolset is like another toolset. Little toolsets in the bigger application. I envy people who know C++ in this case. I won't even try to learn constants-events relation. To make something worth playing, you have to script and script and script. The rest that people make - items, armors etc - those are just little toys. It really takes a commitment, effort and a lot of time to make something like another campaign where you can do more than just go through levels and kill mobs right and left.

[BryanDerksen]

Actually, conversations that update your journal can be done using only plot resources. Add a journal entry to the plot flag, and when the conversation sets the plot flag you'll get that journal entry appearing in your journal. You can control the flow of conversation using just plot flags too, allowing a lot of complex interpersonal interaction and NPCs that remember what's been said to them.



Granted, you'll probably still need a few scripts to make a "complete" adventure. Have you taken a look at the script templates? They're accessible in the script editor's function and constant browser by clicking on the little icon that looks like a sheet of paper. These templates are meant to provide the basic frameworks that are common to 99% of the scripts you'll need to write. Perhaps there'll be more templates and example scripts made available by end users over time for doing some of the other common stuff.



Alternately, if you really don't want to touch scripting, perhaps look around for a project to join or set up a project of your own to find a script-savvy collaborator to work with. It's one of the things we tried to design the social site for.