110 réponses à ce sujet

[Lambchopz]

I do like the Machine Singularity concept, I just wish they did a better job with the execution of the ending. I think the Reaper's argument about synthetic versus organic makes plenty of sense. Perhaps BioWare needs to expand on this to include why the original "creator" of the Reapers came to this conclusion. I can think of plenty of reasons an early civilization might end up with this conclusion, but for now we don't really know. Maybe it's best that way.

Also, considering the Reapers are still synthetics, they were programmed to think that way. Whether the civs they harvested agreed or not is inconseqeuntial, that is how they saw it, and the only way to change their mind was to stop them, which Shepard does. So yeah, I think the concept works just fine.

Since we have no conventional ways to destroy the Reapers, and they were just about to take Earth anyways, Shepard had no choice but to make a decision. I guess if BioWare REALLY wanted to they could have let you just do nothing and watch the Earth go up in flames, but it was either that or trust the star child thing.

The ending was just incredibly unfullfilling, I would have liked to have seen it expanded upon much more. The Normandy crash landing and getting zero variation in the presentation, regardless of choice, are huge flaws that didn't really feel right. I don't know exactly how I personally would have done this, but there is an obvious difference between the quality of the ending and the quality of the rest of the game. That is the main problem by far.

[Can0fCorn]

This is a good ending. However, people are jumping to any other outcome because the current one is just so bad.

Consider this:
Many people don't like the current ending because the choices you made throughout the series didn't really affect the ending. Is this any different? Also, there would have to be some epilogue giving us some closure.

[MadMatt910]

WarBaby2 wrote...

DxWill103 wrote...

I recall reading something a while back about Bioware changing the ending after the leaked scripts. So basically, whoever leaked the script is responsible for the ending we got. If it hadn't been, there might have been a much better ending. Even if it isn't, I most likely couldn't be much worse than the current one.

Yea, ok, but now the game is out... they should put in the original ending and leave it at that.

Simple solution, not much work, job done. A text epiolgue following it would be nice too.

[MadMatt910]

Can0fCorn wrote...

This is a good ending. However, people are jumping to any other outcome because the current one is just so bad.

Consider this:
Many people don't like the current ending because the choices you made throughout the series didn't really affect the ending. Is this any different? Also, there would have to be some epilogue giving us some closure.

From the rmour there were set to be proper distinctive paragon and renegade endings. I think one of which was to destroy the reapers and hope that galactic civilisation can solve the problem.

Perhaps whether galactic civilisation survives or not could depend on certain war assets, perhaps anything science or engineer related. That could incorporate enough to make it feel like you have an impact.

[MadMatt910]

b.u.m.p.

[KILLER SQUIDZ]

Most everyone here has made a good point or two. My biggest problem was that the ending didn't really make sense for the Reapers' (technically the Catalyst's) motivations. Killing organic life to prevent them from being killed by synthetics? Pardon me? Though Myrmedus makes a good point...

I think what the Reapers were arguing is that synthetics would wipe out ALL organic life: sentient, animals, trees, planets; they have no need for these things. In addition, they would argue that organics life on just in different form.

I find it hard to believe that there wasn't an easier way of solving this problem. I mean if the Catalyst had the means to transform every single being in the galaxy into synthetic-organic hybrids then why didn't it do so earlier? Why the genocide? It just doesn't seem like a logical conclusion.
Secondly, the logical errors such as certain squad members being resurrected and teleported back to the Normandy after being killed by Harbinger. A simple fix, but something they need to take care of. Also why was the Normandy leaving Earth in the first place? And how did the squad mates which were previously on the ground fighting wind up on the Normandy?
Third, I think they need to explain what was different about the relay explosions this time around that didn't kill everything in the known galaxy.
They just need to make an ending that makes sense with the currently established story. Though by this time the damage has been done, I'm not sure a new ending would make up for it.

[MadMatt910]

KILLER SQUIDZ wrote...

Most everyone here has made a good point or two. My biggest problem was that the ending didn't really make sense for the Reapers' (technically the Catalyst's) motivations. Killing organic life to prevent them from being killed by synthetics? Pardon me? Though Myrmedus makes a good point...

I think what the Reapers were arguing is that synthetics would wipe out ALL organic life: sentient, animals, trees, planets; they have no need for these things. In addition, they would argue that organics life on just in different form.

I find it hard to believe that there wasn't an easier way of solving this problem. I mean if the Catalyst had the means to transform every single being in the galaxy into synthetic-organic hybrids then why didn't it do so earlier? Why the genocide? It just doesn't seem like a logical conclusion.
Secondly, the logical errors such as certain squad members being resurrected and teleported back to the Normandy after being killed by Harbinger. A simple fix, but something they need to take care of. Also why was the Normandy leaving Earth in the first place? And how did the squad mates which were previously on the ground fighting wind up on the Normandy?
Third, I think they need to explain what was different about the relay explosions this time around that didn't kill everything in the known galaxy.
They just need to make an ending that makes sense with the currently established story. Though by this time the damage has been done, I'm not sure a new ending would make up for it.

I saw a cool question in another post. If you were the catalyst, how would you solve the organic/synthetic problem.
Someone gave a really good answer that breaks the current motivations entirely.

HARVEST/DESTROY THE SYNTHETICS

[KILLER SQUIDZ]

As much as I dislike (and that's putting it nicely) the current ending(s), I would be able to at least tolerate it if they filled in the dozen or so loopholes (such as the Catalyst/Reaper motivations, how any of these endings make anything better, and why Joker and crew decided to ditch Earth) and provided some sense of closure by expanding upon what happens to your squad (whom I spent the past three games investing in) and the galaxy as a whole. But if they can't fix that with the current situation then they need a new ending.

[Indylavi]

The only way I could see how this Dark Energy line would work. Is if it was treated more like today's Greenhouse Gases affecting Climate Change.

To clarify, The reapers were created by a super advanced race of people. They mastered Element Zero and the mass relays. However, doing so created dangerous levels of dark energy. They soon realized that the only way to stop it was to limit the use of Element Zero. Which they did.

However, other races in the galaxy were advancing from Primitive Races to ones that also could master Element Zero. This first race had to come up with a way of controlling the use of Element Zero by other races. Since Element Zero is a natural occurring element they knew they couldn't mine it all away, and wiping out all other lesser races seemed unnecessarily cruel. So, they created the Reapers. A bit like Mordin and the Genophage. This race created an imperfect solution to an imperfect problem. By not out right killing primitive races. They allow at least some sense of life and choice. As long as you didn't advance you were left alone.

The Reapers would allow younger races to live to a certain level. They left the Citadel and Mass Relays in place so these lesser races wouldn't create their own Mass Relays thus increasing to dangerous levels of Dark Energy. Once these races reached a point to where they could use Element Zero to a dangerous degree. They were wiped out to prevent Dark Energy increasing.

There you have it. Full of plot holes? Yes. Would vast parts of the series have to be rewritten? Yes. Poorly thought out? Yes, But hey. It's the best I could come up with while waiting for my Chinese food to arrive

[MadMatt910]

The dark energy stuff does clarify why reapers only harvest advanced civilisation, and also why they don't just destory all synthetics.

In the sauce the reapers were made up of civilisations banding together in hope to solve the problem, creating new reapers from new species as a hope to actually find the answer to the problem.

I don't think quite why dark energy is so bad is explain, but we could have an extra mission, probably involving a discussion with the quarians about what they found on haelstrom. You could tie off that quite nicely that way.

[Nathan Redgrave]

Honestly, there was more foreshadowing about the organics vs. synthetics issue than there ever was for the dark energy problem. It's been a running theme since the very beginning of the first game, what with the geth, and the rogue A.I. you can encounter during a Citadel sidequest, the rogue V.I. on Luna, and then the further development of A.I.s in Mass Effect 2 in the forms of EDI, Legion, and the Heretics. The dark energy thing was the subject of Haestrom, was mentioned in passing as something a lot of people are interested in by Gianna Parasini, and apparently there's one more starsystem in ME2's Galaxy Map which contains a star that's aging too fast. I can see where it was headed, but it's not as if the current plot thread they replaced it with wasn't an even larger core issue in the series. It's also one that doesn't bank on humanity's magical (read: nonexistant) genetic diversity to solve.

EDIT: I think a factor in the plot change might be that dark energy is a highly theoretical concept that would take a lot, and I mean a LOT, of explaining to get most players to understand it--and not just the "pew pew" crowd since I know that remark is headed my way at muzzle velocity--whereas the organics vs. synthetics issue is common enough in pop culture that the "danger" of it is easy enough to grasp at a glance even if the series didn't dedicate a large portion of two games developing it. It also presents an element of controversy that allows the player to decide whether or not to actually AGREE with the Reapers, as despite there being an established track record of synthetics being a bane of organic races (Javik has some things to say about that), said synthetics are portrayed in a sympathetic light... the parallel to the krogan/genophage problem and to a lesser extent the rachni is obvious, and like those cases, it's up to the player to decide how trustful or distrustful to be of them.

Modifié par Nathan Redgrave, 12 mars 2012 - 09:35 .

[Korhiann]

Hopefullt the romours, that the fan reaction to the leaked script was partially responsible for the changing of it, aren't true.
This ending does indeed make more sense as it deals with problems explained in the previous ME games and still keeps to the central themes of the series. Hope and sacrifice.

[Zolt51]

I think what the Reapers were arguing is that synthetics would wipe out ALL organic life: sentient, animals, trees, planets; they have no need for these things.m.

Actually the organics vs synthetics conflict was very much a major plot point before ME1 even came out. From the very first ME book it was made clear that researching A.I. was a *big* taboo - if you did it and were found out, all the council races would team up against you and annihilate you. That part at least was very much foreshadowed.

The dark energy thing in comparison got very little attention: some codex entries, a few passing references.

The Reaper solution to avoid synthetic life destroying everything else feels counterintuitive at first, but could you really find a better one? Keep in mind that whoever created the reapers was extremely advanced, but still finitely so. The reapers could still be defeated by conventional means, although it took half a dozen fleets just to beat one of them.

If the galaxy's civilizations had been left to develop much longer, they would eventually have surpassed the reapers. And when a species develops synthetics, those are at least as advanced as their creators, so they'd be virtually unstoppable.

In light of this, it makes sense that the Reapers would cull organics before they could surpass them. It's a remarkably insensitive solution, but one a machine would come up with. A machine that was given just one mission, unlimited resources to do it, and no opportunity to form attachments or develop any kind of moral framework.

I'm not in love with the endings, but again, the problem is one of execution, not of concept.

[MadMatt910]

Zolt51 wrote...

I think what the Reapers were arguing is that synthetics would wipe out ALL organic life: sentient, animals, trees, planets; they have no need for these things.m.

Actually the organics vs synthetics conflict was very much a major plot point before ME1 even came out. From the very first ME book it was made clear that researching A.I. was a *big* taboo - if you did it and were found out, all the council races would team up against you and annihilate you. That part at least was very much foreshadowed.

The dark energy thing in comparison got very little attention: some codex entries, a few passing references.

The Reaper solution to avoid synthetic life destroying everything else feels counterintuitive at first, but could you really find a better one? Keep in mind that whoever created the reapers was extremely advanced, but still finitely so. The reapers could still be defeated by conventional means, although it took half a dozen fleets just to beat one of them.

If the galaxy's civilizations had been left to develop much longer, they would eventually have surpassed the reapers. And when a species develops synthetics, those are at least as advanced as their creators, so they'd be virtually unstoppable.

In light of this, it makes sense that the Reapers would cull organics before they could surpass them. It's a remarkably insensitive solution, but one a machine would come up with. A machine that was given just one mission, unlimited resources to do it, and no opportunity to form attachments or develop any kind of moral framework.

I'm not in love with the endings, but again, the problem is one of execution, not of concept.

Logical reaper solution to synthetic life problem is turn up and kill all synthetics every time they are built?

[Zolt51]

MadMatt910 wrote...

Logical reaper solution to synthetic life problem is turn up and kill all synthetics every time they are built?

But if the synthetics turn out to be more advanced than the Reapers? That's a real risk if you let organics progress unchecked. Whatever synthetics they will create will be at least as advanced as they are.

[FlyinElk212]

billanizer wrote...

lol i swear the current ending contradicts itself. someone created super advanced AI (the reapers) to come every 50,000 years to destroy all organic life so they dont create AI that will wipe out all organic life. dafuq?

I know. It's a damn shame.

I wish Bioware would've just stressed that "organic life, and beings with the ability to have free will, will constantly war with each other. They will bring chaotic destruction, like the Turians vs. Krogan. Geth vs. Quarians. Even Cerberus vs. Alliance. So we reset the cycle to ensure that organic life never reaches a point of chaotic destruciton."

The whole organic/synthetic life argument Starchild explained was trite, nonsensical, and makes the Reapers incredibly hypocritical.

That being said, with the previously aforementioned rewording, I feel that the ending Bioware chose would've made the most sense.

The problem with the "Dark Energy original ending" is that it, too, suffers from a lack of sense--if Dark Energy is about to blow up the galaxy, why complicate things and compound that problem with the Reapers and the cycle? Couldn't they just say, "Hey guys! That Dark Energy stuff looks pretty damn bad. Let's find a way to fix it, together!" instead of, "MWAHAHAHA GOING TO KILL YOU ALL NOW"??

Modifié par FlyinElk212, 12 mars 2012 - 02:18 .

[MadMatt910]

Zolt51 wrote...

MadMatt910 wrote...

Logical reaper solution to synthetic life problem is turn up and kill all synthetics every time they are built?

But if the synthetics turn out to be more advanced than the Reapers? That's a real risk if you let organics progress unchecked. Whatever synthetics they will create will be at least as advanced as they are.

I see the logic in this. However, in the first game it clearly states the geth (i.e. the only synthetic race) hadn't gone outside the veil for 200 years (i think 200 anyway). But the action of Saren through sovereign push them out.

So the reapers start a war between organics and synthetics so they can kill organics to protect them from synthetics? Its still convoluted at best. Also, peace can be made with most ai encourntered in the game. BOth the geth and EDI (build from ai on luna) are examples of this.

[Archereon]

Harorrd wrote...

I miss the fact that forgot to mention WHAT THE REAPERS ARE IN THE FINAL SCENE OF THE GAME!!!

Robots that kill organics so that organics don't get killed by robots?

Edit: Damn you autocorrect!!!

Modifié par Archereon, 12 mars 2012 - 02:22 .

[Archereon]

Archereon wrote...

Harorrd wrote...

I miss the fact that forgot to mention WHAT THE REAPERS ARE IN THE FINAL SCENE OF THE GAME!!!

Robots that kill organically so that organically don't get killed by robots?

[MadMatt910]

FlyinElk212 wrote...

billanizer wrote...

lol i swear the current ending contradicts itself. someone created super advanced AI (the reapers) to come every 50,000 years to destroy all organic life so they dont create AI that will wipe out all organic life. dafuq?

I know. It's a damn shame.

I wish Bioware would've just stressed that "organic life, and beings with the ability to have free will, will constantly war with each other. They will bring chaotic destruction, like the Turians vs. Krogan. Geth vs. Quarians. Even Cerberus vs. Alliance. So we reset the cycle to ensure that organic life never reaches a point of chaotic destruciton."

The whole organic/synthetic life argument Starchild explained was trite, nonsensical, and makes the Reapers incredibly hypocritical.

That being said, with the previously aforementioned rewording, I feel that the ending Bioware chose would've made the most sense.

The problem with the "Dark Energy original ending" is that it, too, suffers from a lack of sense--if Dark Energy is about to blow up the galaxy, why complicate things and compound that problem with the Reapers and the cycle? Couldn't they just say, "Hey guys! That Dark Energy stuff looks pretty damn bad. Let's find a way to fix it, together!" instead of, "MWAHAHAHA GOING TO KILL YOU ALL NOW"??

The repears could take the most advanced technology/biological material from every cycle. The only massive plot hole with dark energy is whether or not dark energy degrades - otherwise there woudl just be more in every cycle. It may be explained and ive just missed it though.

The current ending is an unsupported mess of organics and synthetics killing each other (apparantly). There is no war with synthetics until the geth come out of the veil because of the actions of sovereign/saren.

WE made some synthetic/organics to kill the organics and preserve their much so synthetics couldnt kill the organics when we drove the synthetics to war with organics. Is that really the logic bioware are using? We dont even need ot get into geth/quarian peace, luna ai become EDI etc etc.

And, a big point, if dark energy isnt the motivation it still needs to be fixed since its causing suns to die - if thats the case the universe will be dead due to dark energy irrelevant of the ending you pick?

[Unit-Alpha]

Wow, a complex ending. Too much for Bioware, I guess. They did the flawed antagonist in ME1 and it was fantastic. They obviously didn't have the skill to do it again.

[WarBaby2]

MadMatt910 wrote...

Logical reaper solution to synthetic life problem is turn up and kill all synthetics every time they are built?

Nooo, because that we (the organics) could comprehend... but Souvereign said we couldn't!^^

[MadMatt910]

WarBaby2 wrote...

MadMatt910 wrote...

Logical reaper solution to synthetic life problem is turn up and kill all synthetics every time they are built?

Nooo, because that we (the organics) could comprehend... but Souvereign said we couldn't!^^

Made me lol.

[FlyinElk212]

MadMatt910 wrote...

FlyinElk212 wrote...

I wish Bioware would've just stressed that "organic life, and beings with the ability to have free will, will constantly war with each other. They will bring chaotic destruction, like the Turians vs. Krogan. Geth vs. Quarians. Even Cerberus vs. Alliance. So we reset the cycle to ensure that organic life never reaches a point of chaotic destruciton."

.............

The problem with the "Dark Energy original ending" is that it, too, suffers from a lack of sense--if Dark Energy is about to blow up the galaxy, why complicate things and compound that problem with the Reapers and the cycle? Couldn't they just say, "Hey guys! That Dark Energy stuff looks pretty damn bad. Let's find a way to fix it, together!" instead of, "MWAHAHAHA GOING TO KILL YOU ALL NOW"??

The repears could take the most advanced technology/biological material from every cycle. The only massive plot hole with dark energy is whether or not dark energy degrades - otherwise there woudl just be more in every cycle. It may be explained and ive just missed it though.

...................

And, a big point, if dark energy isnt the motivation it still needs to be fixed since its causing suns to die - if thats the case the universe will be dead due to dark energy irrelevant of the ending you pick?

That's just the reason why the dark energy ending would've made no sense though. What is the logic behind that? What does technology/biological material matter? Why couldn't this race, which was advanced enough to create the freakin Reaper AND the Mass Effect relays not be intelligent enough to unite and figure out the dark energy problem for themselves, instead of turning to needless violence?

At least with the "reset the cycle to prevent warring species from destroying the galaxy", we're given a logical, plausible reason as to the motivations behind the Reaper creation--human will. It's impossible to accurately determine how any one race will react to another, and as a result, the 50,000 year cycle is a precaution to prevent chaos via the unknown.

Though I DEFINITELY agree with you that the dark energy dilemma needs to be resolved somehow. As it stands, is it even mentioned in ME3???

Modifié par FlyinElk212, 12 mars 2012 - 02:42 .

[MadMatt910]

FlyinElk212 wrote...

MadMatt910 wrote...

FlyinElk212 wrote...

I wish Bioware would've just stressed that "organic life, and beings with the ability to have free will, will constantly war with each other. They will bring chaotic destruction, like the Turians vs. Krogan. Geth vs. Quarians. Even Cerberus vs. Alliance. So we reset the cycle to ensure that organic life never reaches a point of chaotic destruciton."

.............

The problem with the "Dark Energy original ending" is that it, too, suffers from a lack of sense--if Dark Energy is about to blow up the galaxy, why complicate things and compound that problem with the Reapers and the cycle? Couldn't they just say, "Hey guys! That Dark Energy stuff looks pretty damn bad. Let's find a way to fix it, together!" instead of, "MWAHAHAHA GOING TO KILL YOU ALL NOW"??

The repears could take the most advanced technology/biological material from every cycle. The only massive plot hole with dark energy is whether or not dark energy degrades - otherwise there woudl just be more in every cycle. It may be explained and ive just missed it though.

...................

And, a big point, if dark energy isnt the motivation it still needs to be fixed since its causing suns to die - if thats the case the universe will be dead due to dark energy irrelevant of the ending you pick?

That's just the reason why the dark energy ending would've made no sense though. What is the logic behind that? What does technology/biological material matter? Why couldn't this race, which was advanced enough to create the freakin Reaper AND the Mass Effect relays not be intelligent enough to unite and figure out the dark energy problem for themselves, instead of turning to needless violence?

At least with the "reset the cycle to prevent warring species from destroying the galaxy", we're given a logical, plausible reason as to the motivations behind the Reaper creation--human will. It's impossible to accurately determine how any one race will react to another, and as a result, the 50,000 year cycle is a precaution to prevent chaos via the unknown.

I would say as far as i know we dont have a full script of the dark energy ending, the technology/genetics of it may have been explained in there. However, you could argue that because of the way reapers are they arent great at thinking outside the box, and need organics for that. It i smentioned humans are important because of their wide genetic diversity, which was supposed to be important (mentioned in ME2).

The reason we have isnt logical for the ending we have. We made (largely) synthetics to kill organics to stop yoru synthetics from killing organics? Which is what the logic is when you get it onto the most basic level.

One of the endings for the dark energy ending was supposed to be to destory the reapers and hope the races of the galaxy could come together to solve the dark energy problem - otherwise being ultimately destroyed. The other being allowing reapers to harvest the races and let the cycle continue until ultimately a solution woudl be found. (afaik anyway).

Also, with the ending we have it invalidates the point of sovereign, the keepers, the human reaper and does not acknowledge that the reapers are a much greater threat to organics than any ai, especially if you get geth peace.

EDIT: conrad verners dark energy dissertation is considered a war asset and it is mentioned by hackett at one point in me3

Modifié par MadMatt910, 12 mars 2012 - 02:48 .