92 réponses à ce sujet

[Paulinius]

I'm fine with that, I just wish he had some sort of definitive explanation in the game instead of having to discuss it on the BSN.

[Zyrious]

Xeaa wrote...

 There's one major thing that everybody who says that this is playing into the reaper's hands - Catalyst said that ALL DNA would be combined, organic and synthetic. This means that for as much synthetic material all organic life received, all synthetic life received an equal amount of organic. The reapers are now part organic.

This completely levels the playing field, so conflict based solely on differences in DNA/creation should no longer exist. 

The reapers are already  partorganic, a good portion of their construct is organic material and sentient minds combined into the artificial. Synthesis does nothing to them personally except accomplish their goal of preventing singularity.

And there have been humans who have thought of such evils as "Genetic Cleansing". Remove all differences, create a homogenized existence and war is non-existent. This is generally accepted as evil for a reason. You would destroy the very differences that make people who they are in the name of peace, out of fear that the same conclusion cannot be reached as who you are? You accept reaper logic by doing synthesis.

Modifié par Zyrious, 12 mars 2012 - 01:51 .

[Jackalope]

Paulinius wrote...

Organic means organisms made of organic compounds.

So if a lifeform naturally evolved from non-organic compounds, say silicon-based life, then are they considered organic or synthetic?

Because they aren't organic but they weren't created synthetically.

How would the Starchild/Magicbeam differentiate?

God, I'm so confused.

...that was an X-Files episode I think...

[RockyRoberts]

I just want to chime in I've read the pages in this topic and I am very intrigued. I picked the synthesis ending and while I wish there was more closure like everyone else, I have been lurking around here waiting for a discussion on the synthesis ending because it was my first (and only atm) choice...

I have to say I never thought of it for a second as what many of the posters in this topic view the synthesis choice as: a final attempt at indoctrination (and winning in this cycle)...it is a very interesting theory and I wouldn't be surprised by a rickroll like this by bioware in our incoming paid dlc...LOL

IMHO synthesis was the means to an end. I don't quite understand how you equate the hybridization of organic life with synthetic as a homogenization of all organic life...It is simply adding an AI interface to a human/turian/quarian/krogan/plant/organic life.

I see it as the borg without the evil...man that's a terrible example but bear with me...

The benefits are that we are not entirely organic or inorganic. The reapers cannot succeed in this scenario given our ending evidence because they wanted us gone, or as fuel...not working with us/along side of us. Like some have posted our brains multi-tasks, and the "artifical" portion created by the green beam single proccesses; within organic life,there to complement it---not control it. But along with that, the same was true for organic life in the equation.

With the added ability to process numbers like a computer in our brains, don't you think the amassed scientists on earth could begin improving/recreating spacetravel? And how could the addition of proccessing power take away a race's individuality?

Now the question that is posed about deciding how life should be for the rest of the galaxy I ponder:
-How has earth evolved in the past 50 years without technology (computers)?
-Would we be more or less efficient with said technology if we had more control over it (and more integration)?
-Would you like to be able to think about a website and visit it in your head? How about think about making a calling and then w/o speaking outloud, talk to you mother in that boring interview that your in?
-Do you or does anyone you know actively chose to live without a computer or some sort of GUI/GPU in their hosehold?

By blending the two does that mean that there will never be differences of opinion like the heretic geth or evolution like they showed?

...verry interesting guys...no jokes I like how you guys have interpreted the synthesis ending, even though I disagree.

more opinions besides the obvious give us some closure!!!

Modifié par RockyRoberts, 12 mars 2012 - 02:12 .

[Guglio08]

I kind of wish Synthesis had the little bit of Shepard still being alive. For me, Destroy is only a good ending because of the implication that Shepard lived. But I think that Synthesis is the right call, at least for my Shepard.

Synthesis is the only ending that actually creates any hope. You (can) become friends with the Geth, with EDI, and destroying them to wipe out the Reapers is kind of dumbfounded. You would kill your friend to stop your enemy, even though your enemy is the one trying to kill you and your friends? I don't think that really works.

Shepard's entire goal has been about STOPPING the Reapers. Destroying the Reapers is just one option to stop them. Synthesis is the best way to stop them. No one has to die (except Shepard, which is honestly what bothers me the most about this ending). The Reapers' goal is now obsolete, so they leave. And as far as I know, Synthesis is the only ending where Joker is smiling?

And yes, we don't know for certain whether Synthesis will prevent a future technological singularity, but honestly, it's like Lost's ending or Inception's ending: It doesn't matter. Mass Effect 1-3 has always been Shepard's story. What happened before, and what happens after, is nice world building, but the emotional arc is what's important here.

My Shepard has always been about inspiring hope and saving as many people as he can. So I picked Synthesis. It's not perfect, but then again, what is?

[Zyrious]

Guglio08 wrote...

I kind of wish Synthesis had the little bit of Shepard still being alive. For me, Destroy is only a good ending because of the implication that Shepard lived. But I think that Synthesis is the right call, at least for my Shepard.

Synthesis is the only ending that actually creates any hope. You (can) become friends with the Geth, with EDI, and destroying them to wipe out the Reapers is kind of dumbfounded. You would kill your friend to stop your enemy, even though your enemy is the one trying to kill you and your friends? I don't think that really works.

Shepard's entire goal has been about STOPPING the Reapers. Destroying the Reapers is just one option to stop them. Synthesis is the best way to stop them. No one has to die (except Shepard, which is honestly what bothers me the most about this ending). The Reapers' goal is now obsolete, so they leave. And as far as I know, Synthesis is the only ending where Joker is smiling?

And yes, we don't know for certain whether Synthesis will prevent a future technological singularity, but honestly, it's like Lost's ending or Inception's ending: It doesn't matter. Mass Effect 1-3 has always been Shepard's story. What happened before, and what happens after, is nice world building, but the emotional arc is what's important here.

My Shepard has always been about inspiring hope and saving as many people as he can. So I picked Synthesis. It's not perfect, but then again, what is?

You would change the very nature of life for all beings against their will? AI can be rebuilt, as could Geth. Synthesis cannot be undone. Synthesis is not "Making you do math better" it is a total and complete merge downt o having a completely new DNA, it is specifically said to be an effort of homogenization and of making a new line of thought that prevents war between organics and AI because of a new way of thinking. It's not as drastic as indoctrination but it is a form of it.

It isnt about hope, its the opposite. If you do synthesis you are saying the galaxy as it is has no hope. You are saying you have no faith in the races of the galaxy and that YOU must change all that they are so that there can be peace. SAcrificing EDI and the geth sucks, i know, but they knew the risks. Synthesis effects trillions of civilians, just like the reapers were already doing. Y ou might as well "ascend" them as reapers.

I will not perform cybernetic rape on the galaxy so Joker can bone his robot girlfriend.

Modifié par Zyrious, 12 mars 2012 - 02:23 .

[1337rawrskie]

I read someone's theory that all of the nightmare scenes, to an extent at least, were Harbinger's attempt to indoctrinate Shepard using the last image of innocence in humanity that Shepard witnessed when leaving Earth. The child was basically an attempt to break his spirit, but it clearly failed. It would only make sense that Harbinger would continue to use the child as the Catalyst VI thing to try to make Shepard choose something to let the Reapers live. I know this is all speculation, but the god-child does make it clear he is outright against Destroy. He makes a point-blank comment that you will die because have something in common with the Reapers and the geth. I also think it's a little odd that he keep saying things like "we controlled [TIM]" and "do you think you can control us?" Saying "control us" could be a slip up from Harbinger's messages to manipulate Shepard by saying the god-child is an equal, or the same, as his supposed creations, which by his logic should have turned against him if creations turn on creators.

It would make sense no matter the choice why they all -look- basically the same as well if this was all in Shepard's mind as a battle against indoctrination. Even if the Reapers couldn't kill Shepard at that moment, making him believe he had already succeeded rather than truely ascended to the Citadel to activate Crucible and truely stop them, this delay could be enough to win the war. The one part that makes me think this is all a "dream" of sorts is the fact that Shepard has passed out from blood loss on the platform, then is able to get up a few moments later and even run (briefly) when choosing synthesis. I doubt adrenaline could get someone up after already being unconscious from blood loss. So, let Shepard believe that he's saved everyone and his friends magically made their escape, including squadmates that were with him moments beforehand... it's all too perfect. I mean, Joker was even walking fine in the Destroy ending, though perhaps his seat protects his brittle bones better than we can tell?

Modifié par 1337rawrskie, 12 mars 2012 - 02:53 .

[1337rawrskie]

Sorry, double post.

Modifié par 1337rawrskie, 12 mars 2012 - 02:29 .

[RockyRoberts]

Why so Zyrious?

I don't recall anything about homogenization of all organics, rewriting dna does not magically make you forget your culture/individuality ... I fail to see how integration with technology wipes out humanity? we are as much as, no more no less than, the synthetics that accompany organic life. The only fundamental difference that is changing is there aren't two separate forms of life anymore .

[Bigdoser]

Zyrious wrote...

Guglio08 wrote...

I kind of wish Synthesis had the little bit of Shepard still being alive. For me, Destroy is only a good ending because of the implication that Shepard lived. But I think that Synthesis is the right call, at least for my Shepard.

Synthesis is the only ending that actually creates any hope. You (can) become friends with the Geth, with EDI, and destroying them to wipe out the Reapers is kind of dumbfounded. You would kill your friend to stop your enemy, even though your enemy is the one trying to kill you and your friends? I don't think that really works.

Shepard's entire goal has been about STOPPING the Reapers. Destroying the Reapers is just one option to stop them. Synthesis is the best way to stop them. No one has to die (except Shepard, which is honestly what bothers me the most about this ending). The Reapers' goal is now obsolete, so they leave. And as far as I know, Synthesis is the only ending where Joker is smiling?

And yes, we don't know for certain whether Synthesis will prevent a future technological singularity, but honestly, it's like Lost's ending or Inception's ending: It doesn't matter. Mass Effect 1-3 has always been Shepard's story. What happened before, and what happens after, is nice world building, but the emotional arc is what's important here.

My Shepard has always been about inspiring hope and saving as many people as he can. So I picked Synthesis. It's not perfect, but then again, what is?

You would change the very nature of life for all beings against their will? AI can be rebuilt, as could Geth. Synthesis cannot be undone. Synthesis is not "Making you do math better" it is a total and complete merge downt o having a completely new DNA, it is specifically said to be an effort of homogenization and of making a new line of thought that prevents war between organics and AI because of a new way of thinking. It's not as drastic as indoctrination but it is a form of it.

It isnt about hope, its the opposite. If you do synthesis you are saying the galaxy as it is has no hope. You are saying you have no faith in the races of the galaxy and that YOU must change all that they are so that there can be peace. SAcrificing EDI and the geth sucks, i know, but they knew the risks. Synthesis effects trillions of civilians, just like the reapers were already doing. Y ou might as well "ascend" them as reapers.

I will not perform cybernetic rape on the galaxy so Joker can bone his robot girlfriend.

Yup I agree my renegade shep went for destory as well because of this reasoning and I think the destroy ending is pretty much a middle finger to the reapers I think control and synthesis is submission to the reapers reasoning. This is what someone said another topic.

I was just talking to EDI, and she said something that made Shepard ask "Are you saying submission is preferable to extinction?", which is a quote from Saren on Virmire, I believe. I find it odd that this quote is fresh enough in Shepard's mind that s/he'd remember it in a talk with EDI.

I find it even more odd that the two endings we are putting forth as accepting Reaper indoctrination (in other words, submission) are the endings that DONT cause the extinction of the Reapers and the Geth.

If its all a hallucination/indoctrination, it could be Harbinger trying to convince Shepard that submission is indeed preferable to extinction, like Sovereign did to Saren.

[Zyrious]

RockyRoberts wrote...

Why so Zyrious?

I don't recall anything about homogenization of all organics, rewriting dna does not magically make you forget your culture/individuality ... I fail to see how integration with technology wipes out humanity? we are as much as, no more no less than, the synthetics that accompany organic life. The only fundamental difference that is changing is there aren't two separate forms of life anymore .

Our very DNA is being rewritten. How we live, what we are, the way we think, all of this starts in how our body and minds are built. Catalyst makes it clear it is a very major thing, but he thinks it's necessary. But he also thought making everyone reapers was necessary. This isnt just having your ipod fused with your arm, this is having the very basics of your bodily and mental functions altere dand fused with synthetic processes.

Having the way your brain functions altered so that you can understand AI better is going to change how you, your culture, and your species operates. Same for the reverse, in the case of the geth. But the former is more important to the reapers in preparation for future pure AI.

At the end of the day, synthesis is something you are forcing on the galaxy, it is a statement of a lack of faith in your species and the species of the galaxy at large. It is a decision out of fear, just as control is. And it is exactly what the reapers want.

Modifié par Zyrious, 12 mars 2012 - 02:38 .

[Guglio08]

Zyrious wrote...

You would change the very nature of life for all beings against their will? AI can be rebuilt, as could Geth. Synthesis cannot be undone. Synthesis is not "Making you do math better" it is a total and complete merge downt o having a completely new DNA, it is specifically said to be an effort of homogenization and of making a new line of thought that prevents war between organics and AI because of a new way of thinking. It's not as drastic as indoctrination but it is a form of it.

It isnt about hope, its the opposite. If you do synthesis you are saying the galaxy as it is has no hope. You are saying you have no faith in the races of the galaxy and that YOU must change all that they are so that there can be peace. SAcrificing EDI and the geth sucks, i know, but they knew the risks. Synthesis effects trillions of civilians, just like the reapers were already doing. You might as well "ascend" them as reapers.

I will not perform cybernetic rape on the galaxy so Joker can bone his robot girlfriend.

What happens after your choice doesn't matter. What matters is the choice you make.

Excluding the scene of Shepard taking that breath (which I love, it's ambiguous but does at least let me see the character I worked hard to make surviving), he's probably dead, and no one but him knows his fate. So your last choice as Commander Shepard in this universe is the one that defines your character.

It's not about what happens after you make that choice. The Relays explode in all the endings, Normandy crashes, Stargazer epilogue, etc etc. But what choice is the most consistent with the Shepard that you have created? If Destroy is it for you, then good on you for making that choice. But for me, it's Synthesis. The choice for hope, for wisdom to prevent a singularity.

[RockyRoberts]

Zyrious wrote...

RockyRoberts wrote...

Why so Zyrious?

I don't recall anything about homogenization of all organics, rewriting dna does not magically make you forget your culture/individuality ... I fail to see how integration with technology wipes out humanity? we are as much as, no more no less than, the synthetics that accompany organic life. The only fundamental difference that is changing is there aren't two separate forms of life anymore .

Our very DNA is being rewritten. How we live, what we are, the way we think, all of this starts in how our body and minds are built. Catalyst makes it clear it is a very major thing, but he thinks it's necessary. But he also thought making everyone reapers was necessary. This isnt just having your ipod fused with your arm, this is having the very basics of your bodily and mental functions altere dand fused with synthetic processes.

Having the way your brain functions altered so that you can understand AI better is going to change how you, your culture, and your species operates. Same for the reverse, in the case of the geth. But the former is more important to the reapers in preparation for future pure AI.

At the end of the day, synthesis is something you are forcing on the galaxy, it is a statement of a lack of faith in your species and the species of the galaxy at large. It is a decision out of fear, just as control is. And it is exactly what the reapers want.

Very interesting...I can't refute your point that our entire DNA would be reprocessed with AI...nor many of the others...but I ask more why should I have to?

Is it not clear that a hybrdization of culture, thought, and ideals throughout humanity has helped us evolved to the point where we can make such thought-provoking video games?

Believe it or not one day the entire earth's population will be one mixed race...void of anything distignuishably different save for the individuals' personality (of course there will always be some visual variation)?? Yet we can speculate that there always will still be different opinions, ideals, etc...

You are twisting the catalysts words imo with saying that he thinks its very necessary...he brings it up as a third option, an idea that obviously takes some thinking to grasp. The potential for all life in the galaxy to not only survive but thrive after synthesis is in my opinion oughweighs, or rather, supercedes the idea that "we will never think like humans again"...last I checked our imperfections have led to many a pissed off person in the world and I do not see the negative in expanding our ability to see the universe (such as the mission with legion and how he explains memories, etc)

If you really wanted to go crazy with it Shepard doesn't die in the synthesis option; by sacrificing himself into the green beam he becomes the catalyst to what structures human/AI snythesis and is forever apart of evryone that he saved.

Modifié par RockyRoberts, 12 mars 2012 - 03:37 .

[phimseto]

It is encouraging to see so many people out there who know what is best for my genetic code and what it means to be human. /sarcasm

100 out of 100 times I would prefer to die as me than exist (note that I do not say live) as some magically rewritten thing. Synthesis is easily the most evil of all choices. To borrow from star trek 2, it is the destruction of existing life in favor of its new matrix.

[RockyRoberts]

hehehe exit the cave my friend, there is nothing scary about expanding our horizons...

starting to sound like TIM, aren't I???

ayyyeeeeeee

**edit: on another note, I love how your vision of humanity is the only vision for it ...pot calling the kettle black no?
 Neither of us can be sure the implications of something like this and that's why these endings are so...jarring

It's so very hypocrtical, imho, to be a video gamer and a forum-goer and then be afraid of synthesis as if it would make you a reaper...like I said we can only speculate but I fail to see the addition of something making you any less yourself, they are adding to our "perfection" AI...Shepard won and so his prize is to be the catalysts of said synthesis.

Modifié par RockyRoberts, 12 mars 2012 - 04:16 .

[Northern Sun]

To me the Synthesis ending seems like the worst. Playing god and rewriting everyone's genetic code to be partially-synthetic? If something like that happened to me, I'd consider myself to be an abomination and kill myself like I would if I was bitten by a zombie. And I don't think I'd be the only person on the planet to do that.

[Guglio08]

 Let's add some more fuel to the fire!

Dictionary.com said...

cy·borg   [sahy-bawrg]  Show IPAnouna person whose physiological functioning is aided by or dependent upon a mechanical or electronic device.

We are all cyborgs right now. I guarantee you that if all tech stopped working we'd be really screwed.

So Synthesis is just taking this idea to its logical conclusion.

Also, as part of some more thinking of the endings, I have revised my original conclusion: Synthesis would be the option I would personally choose if I was in that situation. However, because I'm playing Shepard, not myself, I feel that Shepard would choose Destroy. Saren wanted Synthesis and Shepard rejected it. The Illusive Man wanted Control and Shepard also rejected that. So Destroy is the only option Shepard, as his own character, can choose, that will adhere to his ethics and morals.

I personally would still choose Synthesis though.

[dragonqueen92]

To chime in here, i just beat the game and i chose the control option. I seem like the only one who did so. It seemed like the best choice to me and believe me when i say i sat in deep thought for a while deciding what to do. I picked control because, A. It doesn't destroy the geth who i believe deserved the chance at a better life after the quarians screwed them over and EDI gets to live cause i enjoyed her this game. B. I thought turning everyone into cyborgs was too wtf for me. and C. i view the whole thing as the child VI thing was the closest thing to god there is in the mass effect universe. the VI in my mind is "mass effect" itself. i viewed it as Shepard taking the godchild's place and controlling the reapers. Shepard isn't dead, she's just giving the orders. She is now "The Shepard" who "herds" the reapers and controls the chaos of the universe.

As for the whole "deciding the fate of the universe" thing, the people in the Milky Way pretty much gave up control to Shepard long ago and gave her full reign to save them in any way she saw fit. they put the galaxy on her shoulders and so she deserves to decide the fate of the galaxy. cause without Shepard there would BE no galaxy.

and honestly, there wasnt really time to go send out a mass email asking everyone in existance to give there opinion on the matter. lol it was a do or die moment, and she made a decision. 

Modifié par dragonqueen92, 13 mars 2012 - 08:57 .